:00:00. > :00:00.thunderstorms. A lovely weekend in terms of sunshine coming up but
:00:00. > :00:14.strong sunshine and high levels of pollen, pretty uncomfortable.
:00:15. > :00:18.Hello and welcome to our look ahead to what the papers will be
:00:19. > :00:24.With me are the former Trader Minister Lord Digby Jones
:00:25. > :00:28.and the broadcaster and campaigner Henry Bonsu.
:00:29. > :00:32.Thank you very much were coming in at this late hour. Tomorrow's front
:00:33. > :00:35.pages: There's once again only one story
:00:36. > :00:38.on tomorrow's front pages, the Guardian reports that
:00:39. > :00:40.while relatives face an agonising wait for news, some victims
:00:41. > :00:44.of the fire may never be identified. The Daily Telegraph says residents
:00:45. > :00:47.of the burnt-out tower block demand answers as their sorrow
:00:48. > :00:51.turns to anger. The Metro focuses on calls
:00:52. > :00:54.for justice after lives were reduced to ashes, saying that those
:00:55. > :00:57.responsible should be arrested. The i carries photos
:00:58. > :00:59.of several of those missing, adding that public anger is growing
:01:00. > :01:02.at what it describes The Times reports that
:01:03. > :01:10.the United States had allegedly banned the type of cladding that
:01:11. > :01:12.encased the 24-storey block. And the Daily Mirror carries
:01:13. > :01:15.a photograph of the devastation at the building, describing it
:01:16. > :01:18.as a diabolical failing The Express carries a photo
:01:19. > :01:21.of distraught friends and relatives, estimating that more than 100
:01:22. > :01:24.people are feared dead. The Daily Mail describes the fire
:01:25. > :01:27.as the worst British disaster since Hillsborough, adding
:01:28. > :01:46.that the charity of ordinary Britons Let's start with the Telegraph,
:01:47. > :01:51.sorrow turns to anger, residents of burnt out tower block demand answers
:01:52. > :01:56.as it emerges a litany of failings led to the inferno that is now
:01:57. > :02:02.feared to have killed 100. The death toll is 17 at the moment, Digby, but
:02:03. > :02:07.we don't know how many are missing. The incredulity that this could
:02:08. > :02:12.happen in 2017. The first thing to say is Henry and I are known to have
:02:13. > :02:15.an interesting debate on this programme quite often and in the
:02:16. > :02:19.next human it's we might disagree about certain things but no viewer
:02:20. > :02:24.showed for a minute think we don't think this is just an absolutely
:02:25. > :02:30.appalling, dreadful human tragedy. Man-made tragedy. Don't mistake for
:02:31. > :02:34.a minute anything we say as not keeping that centre stage, this is
:02:35. > :02:38.appalling and it is a human tragedy more than anything else. One of the
:02:39. > :02:42.things, it is here when you're going through the headlines, we might
:02:43. > :02:49.never know how many people this has killed. We will end up with an
:02:50. > :02:53.estimate. The problem with fire is it destroys bodies. How do you know
:02:54. > :02:58.whether a friend had popped round to stay the night and all that kind of
:02:59. > :03:03.stuff? It is absolutely appalling. I can understand why sorrow and
:03:04. > :03:09.grief... It always needs outlets and one of the best ones you can find is
:03:10. > :03:16.anger, because it channels it, and you lash out understandably. What I
:03:17. > :03:21.would hope, and I don't like to hear this, and it's carried in the top
:03:22. > :03:24.end of the Times, here in the Telegraph, John McDonnell saying
:03:25. > :03:29.let's get 1 million out on the streets to get Theresa May to
:03:30. > :03:35.resign. Corbyn, let's seize the homes of the rich for the homeless.
:03:36. > :03:38.This is not a time, Mr Corbyn or Mr John McDonnell to start politicising
:03:39. > :03:45.this. I would ask, I wish that Theresa May had gone and hugged a
:03:46. > :03:49.victim just like Corbyn did, Corbyn was right there, I'm trying to
:03:50. > :03:54.depoliticise this but this isn't a time for political grandstanding.
:03:55. > :03:57.There isn't a time now for political grandstanding but there is anger and
:03:58. > :04:00.the political fallout will be apparent and people will want that
:04:01. > :04:05.anger to bring about meaningful change. People feel this didn't have
:04:06. > :04:10.to happen. It was forewarned, foreshadowed by a number of groups,
:04:11. > :04:14.not least the tenants' group in that particular building. People say they
:04:15. > :04:25.were threatened by the council, by the outsourcing agency that was
:04:26. > :04:28.managing the block. You can understand why sorrow has turned to
:04:29. > :04:31.anger because the warnings were there, the Telegraph calls it a
:04:32. > :04:35.litany of failings and people feel that actually the government isn't
:04:36. > :04:37.there for us, either at the local level, Kensington and Chelsea
:04:38. > :04:40.Council the national government. One of the things about living in the
:04:41. > :04:44.sixth richest country in the world is there's a contract between
:04:45. > :04:49.government and the people. We bathe laws and we pay our taxes and do the
:04:50. > :04:52.right thing and the government is therefore ask -- we of eight. It
:04:53. > :05:00.seems the government wasn't there for these people that there for us
:05:01. > :05:04.-- we Abe. The government cut costs and gave contracts to organisations
:05:05. > :05:08.that may have cut corners and compromised on safety. It says in
:05:09. > :05:13.this piece there had been no updates to building fire regulations in this
:05:14. > :05:16.country for four years even though similar infernos in Dubai and
:05:17. > :05:21.Melbourne had been seen, so the warnings were there. The Times, I
:05:22. > :05:25.don't think you like the essence of what he's saying but Corbyn says
:05:26. > :05:38.seize homes of the rich to house the Grenfell Tower homeless. Why doesn't
:05:39. > :05:43.he just say go into empty homes? Why doesn't he just say go into empty
:05:44. > :05:46.homes to put the homeless. Why does he have to say homes of the rich? In
:05:47. > :05:48.London, what this puts into perspective is the difference in
:05:49. > :05:52.housing standards and housing availability and in London you can
:05:53. > :05:56.drive down some very, very beautiful streets and no one is living in
:05:57. > :05:59.those homes. I bet I could show you loads of homes which aren't like
:06:00. > :06:08.that and they are still empty. He should have said go and commandeer
:06:09. > :06:13.luxury -- empty homes. He wants to politicise it. Why is it OK to seize
:06:14. > :06:18.anybody's home if it's a private property? Sees isn't the right word
:06:19. > :06:24.to use, you would sequester it for a short period of time -- seize. They
:06:25. > :06:27.have this problem, where can we find quick homes for a short period of
:06:28. > :06:32.time and you compensate the owner. There is a legal way of doing this.
:06:33. > :06:38.It happened in the first and Second World War. He didn't have to say
:06:39. > :06:42.rich people. He did so because he's a Marxist. He's got the wind in his
:06:43. > :06:47.sales and the bit between his teeth and he wants to seize the
:06:48. > :06:52.initiative. He's a Marxist. Forget Marxism, this is about being comfort
:06:53. > :06:57.in Chief, the president of the United States is the comfort in
:06:58. > :07:01.chief. A lot of people in the local area are angry that they know their
:07:02. > :07:04.situation and they know they have less than some of their neighbours
:07:05. > :07:10.and they feel this happened because they are poor and he's trying to
:07:11. > :07:13.capitalise on that, you may like it because these things are political
:07:14. > :07:17.because of the result of council level decisions. On the Guardian
:07:18. > :07:23.front page... Not yet. There's a process here, David. David Lammy is
:07:24. > :07:27.saying, and he's right, don't let people tell you this is a tragedy,
:07:28. > :07:31.it is a monstrous crime, corporate manslaughter, they were warned by
:07:32. > :07:37.the residents and they looked the other way. There is a criminal
:07:38. > :07:41.enquiries. Looking at the Times, it said the contractors sought a more
:07:42. > :07:48.cheaper and combustible version of the cladding, you have a place built
:07:49. > :07:51.in accordance with regulation. If you've got yourself one set of
:07:52. > :07:57.stairs and you've got yourself one load of cladding, this is not
:07:58. > :08:05.businesses' necessarily fault, this is the regulator's Bob, this could
:08:06. > :08:14.be regulation and politicians in the dock -- fault. Nobody wants to Lynch
:08:15. > :08:17.businesspeople. Come on! Let's understand how regulations are
:08:18. > :08:21.formulated at both local and national level, there's normally a
:08:22. > :08:24.consultation very often lobbying sometimes by business people and
:08:25. > :08:29.special interests and as a result you get to a consensus whereby you
:08:30. > :08:33.introduce regulations which may compromise safety and it seems to
:08:34. > :08:41.have been the case here. I agree, but it doesn't have to be business.
:08:42. > :08:48.On the Times, US ban tower cladding, a report in the Times saying this
:08:49. > :08:53.particular type of cladding with a polythene core can't be used in the
:08:54. > :08:58.States it says on here, on buildings taller than 40 feet, which isn't
:08:59. > :09:05.very high. It's the gap. It acts as a chimney, a funnel, it sucks up the
:09:06. > :09:10.heat. Pat and I were in Dubai... Your wife? On the night when that
:09:11. > :09:14.tower went up around 18 months ago and we weren't far away from it and
:09:15. > :09:18.it went up like a torch and the aluminium on the outside, banned in
:09:19. > :09:23.America but still allowed here, was there, I was amazed at the speed of
:09:24. > :09:27.it, it went up like a Roman candle. I think the difference is they went
:09:28. > :09:34.up on the outside and the central Hall was all right. Word here, no
:09:35. > :09:41.sprinklers, one exit. One staircase. This is a massive failure of
:09:42. > :09:45.regulation and I am not for a minute saying an enquiry will decide about
:09:46. > :09:51.the implementation of that regulation, but residents were
:09:52. > :09:56.saying where are the sprinklers? Everyone is quoting from that famous
:09:57. > :10:02.blog. Let's not round up the usual suspects before we have an enquiry.
:10:03. > :10:06.The Daily Mail are asking three questions, green targets to blame
:10:07. > :10:10.for the fire tragedy, why were families told to stay in their flats
:10:11. > :10:15.and how money tinderbox towers are there? The thinking was each flat
:10:16. > :10:18.would be protected for at least an hour by which time you will be
:10:19. > :10:23.reached but the stairwell was so full of smoke that access was
:10:24. > :10:28.estate in 2009 in Camberwell, I saw estate in 2009 in Camberwell, I saw
:10:29. > :10:32.your good interview with Curt Barling, a special correspondent for
:10:33. > :10:36.BBC London, and there were a raft of recommendations that were made that
:10:37. > :10:41.landed on the desks of many ministers including Eric Pickles and
:10:42. > :10:45.nobody did anything. Why were families told to stay in their
:10:46. > :10:49.flats? In the Camberwell estate case, people who stayed in died,
:10:50. > :10:56.those who left got out and survive to this day, how many more tinderbox
:10:57. > :11:00.towers are there? We have 700 in London above ten storeys. What about
:11:01. > :11:05.Birmingham and Manchester and other places? I'm not sure about green
:11:06. > :11:11.targets to blame. We are not sure about these questions. I have a mate
:11:12. > :11:17.who was in 9/11, he was actually in the print hours when it happens
:11:18. > :11:25.below with the -- he was actually in the twin towers below where the
:11:26. > :11:32.aircraft hit. He met a firefighter when he was coming down and he told
:11:33. > :11:36.him to go back. He saw a policeman further down because his instincts
:11:37. > :11:41.told him to carry on and he hit him and he is alive today. The tragic
:11:42. > :11:46.thing is there are people who talk to family and friends from around
:11:47. > :11:52.1:15 a.m., they were told to stay, they were told to stay there because
:11:53. > :11:55.in countries in Britain where you think you are safe, the government
:11:56. > :12:00.or somebody like the fire brigade will come and save you, tragedies
:12:01. > :12:04.like this happen in the developing world, in Nigeria and Bangladesh
:12:05. > :12:08.with Rana Plaza but no, it can happen in Britain as well. It's
:12:09. > :12:14.Achin Lee what the Mail does good and bad, first one, green targets to
:12:15. > :12:18.blame -- it's actually. The middle one, being told to stay in the
:12:19. > :12:24.flats, that's what we've talked about, but how many more tinderbox
:12:25. > :12:27.towers are there? All over Britain, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool,
:12:28. > :12:32.Newcastle, there will be people going to bed in the 23rd floor of...
:12:33. > :12:37.They will be thinking, we've got cladding on the outside. This should
:12:38. > :12:42.be done overnight. Start the process now. Find the money, just like
:12:43. > :12:47.during the war, find the money. I totally agree. Moving onto the Daily
:12:48. > :12:53.Mirror, criminal it says, a picture of... You can't believe the pictures
:12:54. > :13:01.that we saw of that tower, absolutely on fire. The headline is
:13:02. > :13:06.talking about 30 years ago Britain turned its back on social housing.
:13:07. > :13:10.Profit mattered more than putting roots of people's heads. There will
:13:11. > :13:16.be so many potential failures the enquiry will need to at -- roofs.
:13:17. > :13:21.This is an existential thing people have been talking about. People have
:13:22. > :13:27.been saying today they feel ill at ease, we have the unexpected
:13:28. > :13:31.election outcome, terrorist attacks, what's going on in the country? That
:13:32. > :13:37.picture sums it up. You might expect me to say this but they are right in
:13:38. > :13:42.the Mirror headline except for one word, it isn't profit, it is cost.
:13:43. > :13:49.Two sides of the same coin. What they did was, Tony Blair... Isn't it
:13:50. > :13:54.about accountability? It's not profit, though, it's about the cost
:13:55. > :13:57.and I think social housing, the headline is right, I'm not
:13:58. > :14:01.disagreeing, it's not that local authorities and planning authorities
:14:02. > :14:05.and central government said we would make money, that's profit, it's
:14:06. > :14:10.about cutting costs. I'm not saying it is right... But by doing that the
:14:11. > :14:15.responsibility is pastor... They wanted money to be spent elsewhere.
:14:16. > :14:19.It is outsourcing to businesses that want to make a profit. They spent
:14:20. > :14:25.less money on social housing and its polity and they spent more money on
:14:26. > :14:30.something else and it's not a profit issue -- policy. The Mirror is a
:14:31. > :14:34.socialist newspaper and they use profit to denigrate it, it is to do
:14:35. > :14:40.with cost and priority. Profit is part of the chain. No, it's not! Who
:14:41. > :14:48.works with the public sector? Private business. It is a policy
:14:49. > :14:52.decision! And one a minute. Please don't speak across each other --
:14:53. > :14:56.hang on a minute. There was significant profit to be made by
:14:57. > :15:00.using a cheaper form of cladding so it was a business decision by
:15:01. > :15:03.someone, here's the budget we have from the Royal Borough of
:15:04. > :15:07.Kensington, if we use expensive cladding then we will only make
:15:08. > :15:12.profit X, if we use a cheaper one that passes regulations we will make
:15:13. > :15:16.more profit, they aren't thinking about safety. Isn't that the role of
:15:17. > :15:20.a planning regulator and the building inspector that says you're
:15:21. > :15:25.using the wrong cladding? It is all of them and they will all be in the
:15:26. > :15:30.dock. It isn't profit, it is cost. Profit motivates. It is the
:15:31. > :15:37.demonisation of capitalism and that's very wrong.
:15:38. > :15:55.The Daily Telegraph, people who do not know where their relatives are.
:15:56. > :16:03.Similar on the Guardian. People out on the street with photographs. This
:16:04. > :16:07.is one of the terrible things in situations like this. You think
:16:08. > :16:14.there is someone you can talk to and help you co-ordinate your search.
:16:15. > :16:25.After some of the terrible terrorist outrages, or is someone you can go
:16:26. > :16:31.to. I am Person X and this is a photograph of my relative. And there
:16:32. > :16:38.have been things set up to put things together. A 1-stop shop to
:16:39. > :16:46.help people. The answer is they are going to get is this awful word,
:16:47. > :16:50.don't know. The fireman, the police meant can honestly say, they do not
:16:51. > :16:56.know and there is a chance they will never know. Unfortunately, in
:16:57. > :17:03.moments like these usethe there is not a system like this. You can see
:17:04. > :17:10.all of the front pages on the BBC News website. If you have missed the
:17:11. > :17:17.programme you can watch it later. Thank you very much. Now it is time
:17:18. > :17:27.for meet the author.