:00:03. > :00:13.came to the conclusion that a fresh start was needed with a new body
:00:13. > :00:16.
:00:16. > :00:20.It was a major mistake... Yellow beef, I wanted red meat. -- I
:00:20. > :00:30.wanted beef. We had to resort to calling the police to arrange for
:00:30. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:35.this journalists to leave. -- this journalist. A former News of the
:00:35. > :00:39.World reporter jailed for phone hacking. Alongside a private
:00:39. > :00:46.detective. An editor resigning. That was how the truth began to
:00:46. > :00:49.emerge. A newspaper scandal doesn't get much bigger. So what was the
:00:49. > :00:56.Press Complaints Commission, the newspaper watchdog, doing about it
:00:56. > :00:59.at the time? The key question on day 33 of the inquiry. There was a
:00:59. > :01:03.report by the PCC after the convictions of Clive Goodman and
:01:03. > :01:08.Glenn Mulcaire, but that didn't mean, according to its director at
:01:08. > :01:12.the time, that there had been an investigation. Instead they ran
:01:12. > :01:17.what they called an exercise. Was it in any sense an exercise in
:01:17. > :01:24.seeking to ascertain what had happened at the News of the World?
:01:24. > :01:28.We weren't going over the facts of the Goodman/Mulcare case which had
:01:28. > :01:34.been exposed by the court. There were questions about that situation
:01:34. > :01:39.and how it had arisen in terms of culture and so on. If the PCC
:01:39. > :01:46.wouldn't go over facts that left the jailing of the reporter and the
:01:46. > :01:53.resignation of an editor, what sort of body was it? Is this the truth?
:01:53. > :01:57.Is the error that everybody has made, in calling the PCC a self-
:01:58. > :02:03.regulating body, it has believed it is a regulator when in fact it
:02:03. > :02:08.isn't. Yes. When in 2009 the Guardian revealed the news of the
:02:08. > :02:13.world had made payouts to victims of phone hacking, including Gordon
:02:13. > :02:17.Taylor, the PCC looked back at that original exercise. The commission
:02:17. > :02:22.decided that there was no evidence that any body other than that
:02:22. > :02:25.reporter and detective who went to jail had been responsible for
:02:25. > :02:29.mobile phone hacking. And they were pretty dismissive of the Guardian's
:02:29. > :02:35.story as well saying it did not quite live up to its dramatic
:02:35. > :02:40.billing. The PCC view on that report has changed. It was a major
:02:40. > :02:48.mistake and a hostage of fortune. But the board of the commission, so
:02:48. > :02:56.far as I can certainly attest, these were people approaching this
:02:56. > :03:00.matter in good faith to use it. BPCC later withdrew its 2009
:03:00. > :03:05.Berdych -- the PCC. The current director of the commission accepted
:03:05. > :03:13.the system did not work as it should -- the verdict. The key
:03:13. > :03:16.question that has come out, not only the precise nature of the PCC,
:03:16. > :03:21.but they needed a proper mechanism for stopping it happening in the
:03:21. > :03:27.first place. On day 40 for a more defined tone from the man who was
:03:27. > :03:33.chairman of the PCC when the phone hacking broke, who argued the
:03:33. > :03:38.current system works -- on day 44. Today the press is quite closely
:03:38. > :03:42.hemmed in by the statute and the code of practice. It is a situation
:03:42. > :03:48.which is as good as it's going to get. This is a witness who did not
:03:48. > :03:52.accept BPCC had failed to deal with hacking. -- of the PCC. The idea
:03:52. > :03:59.that we should work on the assumption that the police inquiry
:03:59. > :04:04.was inadequate and we needed to add to the efforts that they had made
:04:04. > :04:09.by sending some kind of quasi police investigative force into the
:04:09. > :04:14.News of the world, I have to say it is entirely fanciful.
:04:14. > :04:18.commission's initial report into hacking was monumental, he said. So
:04:18. > :04:22.why didn't they interview Andy Coulson? The News of the World
:04:22. > :04:29.editor during the hacking and press secretary to David Cameron after he
:04:29. > :04:34.resigned, rather than just his successor, Colin Myler. At the time
:04:34. > :04:39.the decision not to interview Andy Coulson, by that time he was no
:04:39. > :04:44.longer editor of the News of the World and had no powers over him at
:04:44. > :04:49.all, was exactly the right one to take. Although it has made things
:04:49. > :04:54.difficult for me. It seems to me whole the improbable that at that
:04:54. > :04:59.time he would have told us more than Colin Myler. And he insisted
:04:59. > :05:09.he had been independent. I think when you mention the word collusion
:05:09. > :05:12.
:05:12. > :05:16.even to dismiss it, with a kind of whiff of flat. Here -- lap dog here.
:05:16. > :05:21.He knows I had my conflicts with editors on all kinds of things. If
:05:21. > :05:26.you think I was sitting in my pocket not daring to do things that
:05:26. > :05:30.they dislike, think again. Press Complaints Commission had not
:05:30. > :05:35.been inept when this man, who was then the information commissioner,
:05:35. > :05:40.warns that journalists might be prosecuted for breaking data
:05:40. > :05:45.protection laws but he would not give any details. I was saying
:05:45. > :05:49.please give me the evidence. He was the only person who could supply it.
:05:49. > :05:55.How could you possibly deduce from that that I wasn't interested? I
:05:55. > :06:00.really wanted to know. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone, "Do you think I
:06:00. > :06:05.would have spent good money on taking him out to lunch at that
:06:05. > :06:10.restaurant in Wellington Street just to hear him burbling away?"
:06:10. > :06:20.unwanted beef, I wanted red meat and he didn't give it to me -- I
:06:20. > :06:20.
:06:20. > :06:24.wanted beef. They struck this pair as rather comic as well. It is like
:06:24. > :06:30.interpreting the Rosetta Stone, it is impossible. Not quite like that
:06:30. > :06:40.because it is not in three languages. If you look at the
:06:40. > :06:41.
:06:41. > :06:46.second document in to have 10 -- tab 10. It sounded like there
:06:46. > :06:50.wasn't that much time for levity in the PCC today according to one
:06:50. > :06:54.current member of the commission, a former chairman of the BBC and ITV,
:06:54. > :07:04.who said the complaints commission hardly have the funds it needed to
:07:04. > :07:19.
:07:19. > :07:23.do its job. It has been start of They are getting calls from night
:07:24. > :07:28.editors at 11pm across the weekend, it is extraordinary what they do,
:07:28. > :07:33.they are unpaid, overworked, overstretched and the newspapers do
:07:33. > :07:37.not recognise the work that they do and the budget is ridiculous.
:07:38. > :07:41.current chairman of the PCC may have been expected to announce
:07:41. > :07:47.another El-abd group defence, lots of tales of how things went wrong
:07:47. > :07:51.in the past -- elaborate defence. Instead he set out the case of the
:07:51. > :07:55.abolition of his own organisation in its current form. I have come to
:07:55. > :08:01.the conclusion that we do urgently need a fresh start and a totally
:08:01. > :08:06.new body with substantially increased powers to audit and
:08:06. > :08:11.enforce compliance with the code, to require access to documents, to
:08:11. > :08:16.summon witnesses where necessary and also to impose fines, all
:08:17. > :08:23.backed by commercial contract. newspaper industry was backing the
:08:23. > :08:28.idea, including Richard Desmond who publishes the start and the Express
:08:28. > :08:38.newspapers, and to pull out of the PCC -- the Start. How are we going
:08:38. > :08:46.
:08:46. > :08:51.to get people to join up? By asking them -- the. -- the Star newspaper.
:08:51. > :08:58.Everyone who I have asked have agreed so far. While the press are
:08:58. > :09:04.willing to embrace change, they must fight off one thing that will
:09:04. > :09:08.be regulated by a new law for all stop there are very strong views in
:09:08. > :09:14.Parliament that there must be stronger if it's on the power of
:09:14. > :09:18.the press. -- strong limits. This would open a Pandora's box. It
:09:18. > :09:24.would be for many of my colleagues in Parliament a wonderful moment if
:09:24. > :09:32.they were given the opportunity to debate a Bill regularly to the
:09:32. > :09:38.press. I just do not know what would emerge the other side, but we
:09:38. > :09:44.are determined that what would emerge the other side would be 2005
:09:44. > :09:51.-- in the 2005 Act would be independent judiciary. You think
:09:51. > :09:58.that Parliament might seek to use any form of legislation, how
:09:58. > :10:04.whether it was cast, as a way of controlling the press. Yes. They
:10:04. > :10:08.have told me so. Many of them. In both houses. On day 35 another
:10:08. > :10:13.voice from inside the world of press regulation. A chair of the
:10:13. > :10:19.body that both finances and chooses the chair of the PCC itself
:10:19. > :10:22.insisted that the old system had its merits. I think that in the
:10:22. > :10:30.areas that are reference there, such as harassment, the treatment
:10:30. > :10:34.of children and hospital patients, has improved in standards over the
:10:34. > :10:39.years. But he accepted a new regulator should be able to levy
:10:40. > :10:46.fines, something he once opposed. Something we have seen laid bare
:10:46. > :10:51.for the first time is the very real lack of powers that exist within
:10:51. > :10:56.the self-regulatory system to conduct regulations. It probably
:10:57. > :11:03.took a scandal like that to show us that we needed a new body which
:11:03. > :11:08.could enforce the terms of the code. So it is that which has led me to a
:11:08. > :11:13.change of opinion. Although Lord Black, a Conservative peer himself,
:11:13. > :11:18.did not accept the suggestion that too many Tories are on the
:11:18. > :11:23.Commission and the body he led. am not asking this question
:11:23. > :11:31.disparagingly, it is just an observation, we see a preponderance
:11:31. > :11:37.of Conservative Peers wherever we look both in the PCC and also in
:11:37. > :11:40.the press corps at the moment. That doesn't necessarily create for
:11:40. > :11:46.public confidence in an independent system. Would you accept that
:11:46. > :11:51.observation? No. I would point out the joint chairman of the
:11:51. > :11:56.commission was a Liberal Democrat peer. This is not a political
:11:56. > :12:01.appointment. All this talk of great change begged a question, though.
:12:01. > :12:07.It's the press push on with her own regulatory reforms, where did that
:12:07. > :12:11.leave Lord Justice Leveson -- if the press pushed on with their own.
:12:11. > :12:15.I made a comment contrary to the press reports overnight, I don't
:12:15. > :12:20.for a moment think that I can just sit back and consider myself
:12:20. > :12:25.redundant. I am going to press on with the inquiry that I am
:12:25. > :12:33.conducting. That is not to say that you shouldn't equally press on.
:12:33. > :12:42.Things are rather different for Ofcom came to the inquiry to
:12:42. > :12:50.explain that while editors make the decisions... We have people who are
:12:50. > :13:00.engaged a very actively in the industry. That did not mean the
:13:00. > :13:05.
:13:05. > :13:13.broadcaster has always got things right. Of confined �150,000 --
:13:13. > :13:23.Ofcom find the BBC �158,000 for the messages Russell Brand and Jonathan
:13:23. > :13:24.
:13:24. > :13:29.Ross left on someone's phone. had a prodigiously egregious case...
:13:29. > :13:35.The BBC themselves confirmed relatively quickly there was
:13:35. > :13:41.substantial editorial failure. There was editorial misjudgement.
:13:42. > :13:46.There were procedural compliance issues as well. In addition to the
:13:46. > :13:56.fact the BBC Trust said, this was a truly unacceptable breach of
:13:56. > :13:57.
:13:57. > :14:07.privacy. The complaints were not all serious. A view a court last to
:14:07. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:14.complain that someone set fire to joey... -- called us. Some cases
:14:14. > :14:24.are quite easy to roll out. Press regulators do not have to deal with
:14:24. > :14:26.
:14:26. > :14:30.complaints about animation at the moment. When I was growing up, I
:14:30. > :14:35.knew there was a printing press, I knew what that was and I knew what
:14:35. > :14:41.it produced. There was a television transmitter, I knew what that was
:14:41. > :14:46.and what that did. Today, when I am consuming media, I have no idea
:14:46. > :14:51.where it comes from in digital form. I know what a newspaper is and I
:14:51. > :14:58.knew what broadcasting is, but that is not where the future is. The
:14:58. > :15:03.future is in digital form. In digital form you do not have these
:15:03. > :15:08.fixed, separate physical digital media to which we can adopt
:15:08. > :15:17.separate regular Tory structures. Security or lack of it was central
:15:17. > :15:21.to the phone hacking saga. These mobile phone companies said 270 of
:15:21. > :15:25.their customers for victims of phone hacking. Listening to mobile
:15:25. > :15:30.phone calls was difficult but possible. It is reasonable to say
:15:30. > :15:35.that it is possible to do that. Doing it live is incredibly
:15:35. > :15:41.difficult. You have got to have a lot of technical skill to do it.
:15:41. > :15:47.You would have to have significant financial resources behind you to
:15:47. > :15:52.buy the equipment needed to do it. Of course, it is illegal. Illegal
:15:52. > :15:58.activity by private investigators sparked this scandal. Groups
:15:58. > :16:04.representing them told the inquiry about the problems they face.
:16:04. > :16:09.2009 we had a very unfortunate experience where someone who had
:16:09. > :16:19.been granted provisional membership was brought to our attention by
:16:19. > :16:23.
:16:23. > :16:30.police that he was actually a convicted sex offender. His
:16:30. > :16:34.activities was consistent with the job they were trying to do keeping
:16:34. > :16:39.an eye on him on the sex offenders' register. He had lied on his
:16:39. > :16:46.application form. He had not declared his conviction. We needed
:16:46. > :16:53.to expel him. It then became apparent that the clarification
:16:53. > :17:03.system was insufficient. Things just had to change. There are so
:17:03. > :17:12.
:17:12. > :17:14.many associations... It needs regulation. The man who already
:17:15. > :17:24.regulates the Security Industry said those involved in private
:17:25. > :17:29.
:17:29. > :17:37.investigation should be licensed Darfur we have failed -- licensed...
:17:37. > :17:41.We have failed to implement that so far. There are a number of issues,
:17:41. > :17:44.concerning the availability of training, issues around the
:17:44. > :17:49.availability of parliamentary time to get the order through. Then
:17:49. > :17:59.there are more issues at an organisational level. Nothing I
:17:59. > :18:04.have heard in the last three months persuades me that this is an
:18:04. > :18:12.industry that requires regulation. Beyond the inquiry the Labour MP
:18:12. > :18:16.Tom Watkins reveal the Metropolitan Police had written to him informing
:18:16. > :18:20.him they were investigating the now hacking. The editor of the Times
:18:20. > :18:24.and the editor of the Sun were called back to give evidence.
:18:24. > :18:34.Plenty of people have been in touch with Lord Leveson asking whether
:18:34. > :18:35.
:18:35. > :18:39.they can give their evidence. On the last afternoon he had
:18:39. > :18:48.disturbing details of what can happen when the media becomes
:18:48. > :18:52.crime. She was attacked in front of her son, stabbed in the neck and
:18:52. > :19:00.paralysed in 2005. Once that news became public the media attention
:19:00. > :19:09.was immense and immediate. We did now by newspapers, we did not
:19:09. > :19:15.collect articles about her. People gave us articles. It was just shoot
:19:15. > :19:22.the amount of coverage. It was incredibly intrusive. On the first
:19:22. > :19:28.day the police had to ordered journalists out of the garden where
:19:28. > :19:33.my daughter was living. They were upset about being asked to move.
:19:33. > :19:39.They were camping in the garden of her house. A journalist who arrived
:19:39. > :19:49.at my mother-in-law's house, she was terminally ill at the time. She
:19:49. > :19:53.was 200 miles away. One journalist arrived and said he would not leave
:19:53. > :19:58.until he received a photograph. We had to revert to calling the police
:19:58. > :20:03.to arrange for the journalist to leave. The family got used to
:20:03. > :20:08.telling reporters to go away. Four days after the attack, the News of
:20:08. > :20:18.the World was able to reveal that Abigail was pregnant, something
:20:18. > :20:21.
:20:21. > :20:28.those closest to her only just learned. Hospitals routinely do
:20:28. > :20:34.pregnancy tests on women admitted to hospital. This was news to the
:20:34. > :20:39.family. It was very intimate and very sensitive information. There
:20:39. > :20:44.was no way that information should have been in the public domain.
:20:44. > :20:52.time passed she grew stronger, but when she went on a pilgrimage press
:20:52. > :21:02.photographers were waiting. On this occasion... They took photographs
:21:02. > :21:03.
:21:03. > :21:09.of her children without their knowledge. This is not a picture
:21:09. > :21:19.taken close-up with their knowledge. Years later, when she had another
:21:19. > :21:25.child, she found her home was staked out. We took what evidence
:21:25. > :21:30.there was in the car. We had a laptop. There was the Daily Mail on
:21:30. > :21:40.the back seat and on the front seat. It was not the same car every day.
:21:40. > :21:45.
:21:45. > :21:52.It was a journalist who had to be leave. It was a journalist,
:21:52. > :21:58.uninvited, trying to take photographs. They followed them
:21:58. > :22:05.when they went out. BPCC said it would need the journalist names