Episode 20

Download Subtitles

Transcript

:00:03. > :00:08.Rebekah Brooks, and former editor of the News of the World and

:00:08. > :00:11.Downing Street communications director Andy Coulson. It is not

:00:11. > :00:15.possible to state with any certainty whether or not those

:00:15. > :00:25.voice mails were deleted. I know nothing about what Clive Goodman

:00:25. > :00:29.

:00:29. > :00:33.did... I would Text Mr Cameron on occasion, like a lot of people...

:00:33. > :00:38.It was a moment of anguish like few others. Milly Dowler was missing,

:00:38. > :00:42.her mum called her mobile phone, expecting to hear a message saying

:00:42. > :00:49.the mailbox was full. I rang her phone and it clicked through on to

:00:49. > :00:55.her voice mail, so I heard her voice. I was just, she has picked

:00:55. > :00:59.up her voicemails, she is a live! The Guardian said it was the News

:00:59. > :01:02.of the World that deleted messages to free up space for more. This was

:01:02. > :01:06.the week that saw two former News of the World editors, one of whom

:01:06. > :01:10.he became the top spin-doctor for the Prime Minister, another who

:01:10. > :01:13.counts herself as a friend of David Cameron, appearing at the inquiry.

:01:13. > :01:18.But before the appearance of Andy Coulson and Rebekah Brooks at the

:01:18. > :01:22.end of the week, the inquiry heard about a Metropolitan Police

:01:22. > :01:26.investigation which was intended to get to the truth about Milly

:01:27. > :01:32.Dowler's voicemail. As proceedings started on day 67, some facts

:01:32. > :01:35.needed little explaining. This report into the findings of the

:01:36. > :01:39.explanation -- investigation does not go into the detail about Milly

:01:39. > :01:42.Dowler's telephone being hacked. It is public knowledge that this is

:01:42. > :01:47.the case, and I can confirm that there is evidence to support the

:01:47. > :01:53.fact that it happened. But have voicemail system wiped messages on

:01:53. > :01:57.her phone after they had been there for 72 hours. The Met concluded...

:01:57. > :02:01.Milly Dowler's mother's call is likely to have been made when one

:02:01. > :02:04.of the previous messages had been automatically deleted. The

:02:04. > :02:09.telephone provider has also confirmed that when the voicemail

:02:09. > :02:15.box was full, the automated message would be heard, and once messages

:02:15. > :02:20.had started to drop off the personal voicemail greeting, this

:02:20. > :02:25.would have come into effect. did journalists delete voice mails

:02:25. > :02:30.later on? The verdict from the Met was... Taking all of the

:02:30. > :02:37.information into account, it is not possible to state with certainty

:02:37. > :02:42.whether Milly Dowler's first males were or were not deleted. -- voice

:02:42. > :02:52.mails. Two messages are believed to have been missing. When trying to

:02:52. > :02:54.

:02:54. > :03:01.interpret the and -- the evidence, it is necessarily important to

:03:01. > :03:08.consider the lack of complete data. Breaching a definitive conclusion

:03:08. > :03:12.is not and may never be possible. - - reaching. News International

:03:12. > :03:18.repeated its apology to the Milly Dowler family for the hacking of

:03:18. > :03:20.the voice mail, and The Guardian explained... Our error, as we

:03:20. > :03:25.acknowledged and corrected last December, was to have written about

:03:25. > :03:30.the cause of the deletions as a fact, rather than as the belief of

:03:30. > :03:33.several people involved in the case. We regret that. And the barrister

:03:33. > :03:37.for the victims read a statement from Milly Dowler's family, wishing

:03:37. > :03:42.the police had done more about the actions of the News of the World.

:03:42. > :03:45.If Surrey police have prosecuted his activity in 2002, then the

:03:45. > :03:48.position would have been very different, and perhaps countless

:03:48. > :03:54.others might also have avoided having their private messages

:03:54. > :03:58.hacked into by the News of the World. Police neglect and deference

:03:58. > :04:03.meant that it took the relentless efforts of one journalist to

:04:03. > :04:05.uncover what the police knew had gone on. The News of the World is

:04:05. > :04:09.of course history, but unlike so many other editors who have come

:04:09. > :04:14.here, this one had something of a success story to talk about. The

:04:14. > :04:18.Daily Mail's online edition boasts more than 5.5 million readers every

:04:18. > :04:22.day. In the 1980s, when they deregulated the City, it gave the

:04:22. > :04:27.City a chance to compete around the world for financial business, and

:04:27. > :04:33.it did so fantastically. In a way, this is the chance for Fleet Street

:04:33. > :04:37.to compete with a one else in the world. -- with everyone else in the

:04:37. > :04:41.world. The home of the Internet is America, the biggest news providers

:04:41. > :04:47.are American. He warned that that chance to compete could be stifled

:04:47. > :04:52.by too much regulation. How far is the state willing to go to compel

:04:52. > :04:56.private individuals and curtail their freedom of speech? I am

:04:56. > :05:06.suggesting that in the real world, when it comes to a point of

:05:06. > :05:10.principle, it would not be a prize that the public was willing to pay.

:05:10. > :05:14.You're asking me, how do we regulate the Internet? My question

:05:14. > :05:17.is, do we need to regulate the Internet, any more than you need to

:05:17. > :05:26.have a policeman standing in the corner of every pub watching what

:05:26. > :05:31.everyone says? On the next day, Lord Leveson started with a warning,

:05:31. > :05:34.a warning with potential political ramifications. I am not so naive

:05:35. > :05:38.that I do not understand that there are elements of what I am doing

:05:38. > :05:41.which are likely to be of party political interest. I have

:05:41. > :05:47.absolutely no intention of allowing the inquiry to be drawn into such a

:05:47. > :05:51.debate, and will vigorously resist any attempt to do so. But even

:05:51. > :05:55.staying out of political rowers can have a political impact. He made it

:05:55. > :05:58.clear he would not rule on breaches of the Ministerial Code, so he

:05:58. > :06:04.would not be deciding whether this man, the Culture Secretary, Jeremy

:06:04. > :06:09.Hunt, handled News Corporation's bid for control of BSkyB properly.

:06:09. > :06:13.On the face of it, that sounds helpful to David Cameron, but it

:06:13. > :06:16.could put more pressure on Downing Street to get its own adviser on

:06:16. > :06:20.the Ministerial Code to investigate Jeremy Hunt. And there was no

:06:20. > :06:24.comfortable passage for Rupert Murdoch, as the inquiry barrister

:06:24. > :06:29.reflected on the fact that Mr Murdoch could not recall a key

:06:29. > :06:34.meeting with Margaret Thatcher in 1981, as he was battling for

:06:34. > :06:37.ownership of the Times newspapers. One has to question whether this is

:06:37. > :06:44.a selective amnesia. Mr Murdoch told us in evidence that he did not

:06:44. > :06:47.enjoy frequent encounters with Baroness Thatcher, not merely with

:06:47. > :06:51.-- would be selective amnesia appear to be convenient, but

:06:51. > :06:55.inferences might be drawn as to Mr Murdoch's intentions in seeking to

:06:55. > :07:00.meet with the Prime Minister in 1981. Furthermore, this issue is

:07:00. > :07:03.capable of having a bearing on Mr Murdoch's integrity. It was another

:07:03. > :07:10.reminder of the power of this inquiry to shape how people are

:07:10. > :07:16.perceived, to shape their reputations. Next up, man has been

:07:16. > :07:21.-- who has been a top editor, as well as a top adviser to David

:07:21. > :07:24.Cameron - Andy Coulson. Mr Coulson had to resign from the News of the

:07:24. > :07:28.World after a report was sent to jail for phone hacking. But he was

:07:28. > :07:34.not out of work for long, David Cameron subsequently hiring him to

:07:34. > :07:38.work for him. Was the Chancellor given an easy ride over a rather

:07:38. > :07:42.awkward story for him in the News of the World? The inquiry's

:07:42. > :07:48.barrister suggested a favourable slant in the paper's editorial.

:07:48. > :07:51.But... I would say this, that is the leader column of the News of

:07:51. > :07:54.the World, and as much as I would love to say that the leaders that I

:07:54. > :08:00.wrote were the most read part of the newspaper, I think I can safely

:08:00. > :08:07.say that they were not. The front page I don't think in any way can

:08:07. > :08:11.be described as career enhancing for George Osborne. The idea that

:08:11. > :08:16.we somehow or other went easy on him I think is ridiculous, when you

:08:16. > :08:20.look at the paper. Not that this was all about the Conservatives.

:08:20. > :08:27.When you resigned from the opposition as editor of the News of

:08:27. > :08:37.the World, did you receive any commiserations from Mr Blair?

:08:37. > :08:44.some time later, yes. Mr Brown? Mr Cameron? I do not remember doing

:08:44. > :08:54.so. But the key questions were about what he was asked, by whom,

:08:54. > :08:58.and when. You say in paragraph 31 of your statement, this is the

:08:58. > :09:03.conversation you have just been referring to - He, Mr Cameron, also

:09:03. > :09:08.asked me about the Clive Goodman case. Can you remember the gist of

:09:08. > :09:13.your answer? I was able to repeat what I had said publicly, that I

:09:13. > :09:19.knew nothing about the Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire case in

:09:19. > :09:24.terms of what they did. But what about much later, when this story

:09:24. > :09:30.raised concerns that it wasn't just Clive Goodman hacking phones?

:09:30. > :09:35.publication of the piece in The Guardian in July 2009, were any

:09:35. > :09:40.further assurances sought by Mr Cameron or anyone else on his

:09:40. > :09:46.behalf in relation to the matter of Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire?

:09:46. > :09:51.Not that I recall. There was something David Cameron didn't know

:09:51. > :09:56.- because Mr Coulson did not tell him or anyone else, that he had

:09:56. > :10:00.shares in News Corporation. He continued to hold the stock even as

:10:00. > :10:05.the Government had to decide whether to let News Corp buy those

:10:05. > :10:09.BSkyB shares it did not already own, the decision in which Andy Coulson

:10:09. > :10:13.said he played no part. Do you know the approximate value of these

:10:13. > :10:19.stocks? I did not throw out any time in opposition or in government,

:10:19. > :10:24.but in preparation for day, -- for today, I have checked, and their

:10:24. > :10:31.gross value is around �40,000. I am not clear what deductions will come

:10:31. > :10:38.from that. Why do you think you overlooked them? This is by way of

:10:38. > :10:44.explanation, not excuse. My job in opposition was a busy one, my job

:10:44. > :10:50.in government was busier still, and they did not take the time to pay

:10:50. > :10:53.close attention to my own circumstances in this regard, and I

:10:53. > :10:56.should have done. There were also revelations about what Andy Coulson

:10:56. > :11:06.was allowed to do despite not having the highest level of

:11:06. > :11:17.

:11:17. > :11:23.Did you ever attend meetings of the National Security Council? Yes. My

:11:23. > :11:33.understanding is that they s sea level allows occasional access to

:11:33. > :11:35.

:11:35. > :11:45.top-secret paper work -- the SC level. Andy Coulson also spelt out

:11:45. > :11:50.

:11:51. > :11:55.his relationship with Frederic Michel. He had a hand in the

:11:55. > :12:02.organising of a lunch between David Cameron and the former Spanish

:12:02. > :12:09.prime minister. Once in government, I'd do we call talking to him, very

:12:09. > :12:14.briefly in my office, I think. I cannot find a full record of that

:12:14. > :12:21.meeting. It could be he was seeing someone else all in the building,

:12:21. > :12:25.with another meeting and popped in. A Andy Coulson's evidence contained

:12:25. > :12:29.plenty of intriguing titbits, but no jaw-dropping revelations likely

:12:29. > :12:33.to cause embarrassment to David Cameron. Mr Coles and insisted

:12:33. > :12:38.there was no grand conspiracy between the Conservative Party and

:12:38. > :12:43.Rupert Murdoch -- Andy Coulson insisted. His evidence did not make

:12:43. > :12:48.any reference to the phone hacking scandal, because that is subject to

:12:48. > :12:53.an investigation by the Metropolitan Police. On day 69, it

:12:53. > :12:58.was the turn of Rebekah Brooks, perhaps best thought of as Rupert

:12:58. > :13:05.Murdoch's ambassador for Britain. She became chief executive of the

:13:05. > :13:08.organisation that runs his British newspapers. Robert Jay QC asked

:13:08. > :13:15.whether politicians cameras -- whether politicians commiserated

:13:15. > :13:19.with her when she had to resign. Big you receive messages of support

:13:19. > :13:26.from politicians -- did you receive messages of support from

:13:26. > :13:36.politicians, in 20th July 11 particularly? Yes, some. Directly

:13:36. > :13:38.

:13:38. > :13:45.or indirectly? Mainly indirectly. In order to get a fair picture, can

:13:45. > :13:54.you are sisters bike -- can you assist us by saying he you got the

:13:54. > :14:03.message is from? Nothing direct. whether politicians? The variety.

:14:03. > :14:10.Some Tories, a few Labour politicians. Can you be a bit more

:14:10. > :14:19.specific? I am not trying to be evasive. I received indirect

:14:19. > :14:24.messages from Number Ten, number 11, the Home Office, the Foreign Office.

:14:24. > :14:29.So you were talking about Secretary of State, the Prime Minister, the

:14:29. > :14:36.Chancellor of the Exchequer. also people who worked in those

:14:36. > :14:43.offices as well. How about Labour politicians? Like I say, very few

:14:43. > :14:51.Labour politicians cent commiserations. Did Mr Blair sent

:14:51. > :14:58.you won? Yes. Probably not Mr Brown. Now. He was probably getting the

:14:58. > :15:04.bunting out. That's is a reference to the Sun changing allegiances. A

:15:04. > :15:08.pattern emerged throughout her evidence of just how close her

:15:08. > :15:12.relationships were two prime ministers. Tony Blair went to her

:15:12. > :15:21.40th birthday party and David Cameron was in touch with her by

:15:21. > :15:27.text message. He would textual to a dozen times a day? Is that true?

:15:27. > :15:32.Known, thanks to Lee. A handful of times a day? No. I have read this

:15:32. > :15:38.as well, 12 times a day, it is preposterous. One would hope he

:15:38. > :15:47.would have better things to do. And I would hope that I did. I would

:15:47. > :15:55.text Mr Cameron and vice fares that on occasion. Care new give an idea

:15:55. > :15:59.of frequency? -- can you give an idea. Probably more between 20th

:15:59. > :16:09.January 10, maybe during the election campaign, may be slightly

:16:09. > :16:15.more, on average, maybe once a week. The critical time as you say is the

:16:15. > :16:24.election campaign. Can you give an idea about frequency in relation to

:16:24. > :16:34.that period? Maybe twice a week. Everybody wants to know how his

:16:34. > :16:48.

:16:48. > :16:58.messages are signed off. Can you help? What was the decision? Answer

:16:58. > :16:59.

:16:59. > :17:09.the question. He would sign them off, with his initials mainly.

:17:09. > :17:09.

:17:09. > :17:13.Anything else? Occasionally, he would sign them off LOL, lots of

:17:13. > :17:19.love. That was until I told him it meant a laugh out loud. Then he did

:17:19. > :17:23.not do it like that anymore. evidence had a mixture of

:17:23. > :17:30.interesting history and the odd moment that could provoke Esquire

:17:30. > :17:34.of embarrassment in Downing Street. Nothing too politically

:17:34. > :17:38.uncomfortable. The afternoon session was to prove a bit

:17:38. > :17:42.different. A previously unreleased e-mail emerged, sent from Frederic

:17:42. > :17:52.Michel to Rebekah Brooks. In it, he suggested that Jeremy Hunt, the

:17:52. > :17:54.

:17:54. > :18:00.Culture Secretary, had a cyst -- had asked for private advice from

:18:00. > :18:03.News Corp to guide his positioning over the issue. Jeremy Hunt has

:18:03. > :18:07.said Frederic Michel has admitted to the inquiry that sometimes when

:18:07. > :18:12.he suggested he was communicating with the Culture Secretary, he was

:18:12. > :18:19.actually talking to the now resigned former adviser Adam Smith.

:18:19. > :18:22.Mr Hunt says that when he appears here, he feels he will be

:18:22. > :18:28.vindicated. Rebekah Brooks told the inquiry she had spoken about the

:18:28. > :18:33.BSkyB deal with the Chancellor, George Osborne. Did Mr Osborne

:18:33. > :18:39.support News Corp? He never said so. He never said explicitly that.

:18:39. > :18:49.However, I think one of the points we were trying to make about the

:18:49. > :18:53.bid was it that kind of level of investment was coming into their UK,

:18:53. > :18:58.country to what some people were saying, that it would be a bad

:18:58. > :19:01.thing, we thought that in the call centres around the country, there

:19:01. > :19:10.would be a creation of jobs, and we would try to put that argument

:19:10. > :19:15.forward. I think my question was only was he supportive of the bid.

:19:15. > :19:21.And as I said, he never explicitly said said. Can you confirm whether

:19:21. > :19:26.he was on not? He was interested in our organisation. The revelations

:19:26. > :19:31.of the phone hacking scandal eventually make those discussions

:19:31. > :19:35.immaterial. The BSkyB takeover was off. The question returned to their

:19:35. > :19:39.ethics and practice of the Sun newspaper, at one particular story.

:19:39. > :19:45.The news that Gordon Brown's son Fraser suffered from cystic

:19:45. > :19:52.fibrosis. Gordon Brown says -- Gordon Brown suggested then pay-

:19:52. > :19:59.per- got hold of this news by getting hold of medical records. It

:19:59. > :20:09.is a terrible accusation for a prop -- or a former Prime Minister to

:20:09. > :20:09.

:20:09. > :20:16.make. Rebekah Brooks said the paper got the story from another parent

:20:16. > :20:18.with a child with cystic fibrosis. She would not give any more

:20:18. > :20:23.information. Gordon Brown and his wife expressed concern that it was

:20:23. > :20:28.still not clear specifically how the Sun obtained details of

:20:28. > :20:33.Fraser's medical condition. So, another week wraps up. Proceedings

:20:33. > :20:38.in the coming weeks will get even more intensively political as

:20:38. > :20:47.politicians themselves start to give evidence in person. Next week,