:00:42. > :00:52.In the East Midlands, why it city councils of warning schools not to
:00:52. > :00:52.
:00:52. > :37:50.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2217 seconds
:37:50. > :37:52.join the rapid expansion of Hello, I'm John Hess, and coming up
:37:52. > :37:56.in the East Midlands: The city council that's warning
:37:56. > :38:01.schools not to become academies. It says they risk losing a vital
:38:01. > :38:03.lifeline. Is it right? The chairman of the health select
:38:03. > :38:08.committee, Charnwood MP Stephen Dorrell, gives me his verdict on
:38:08. > :38:11.the Government's changes to its own health reforms.
:38:11. > :38:18.Plus, so why should Roy Plumb have to retire as a magistrate at
:38:18. > :38:23.seventy when he's exactly the same age as Ken Clarke? He has Ali been
:38:23. > :38:33.in his job for a year, he is doing a super job and there is more pure
:38:33. > :38:37.
:38:37. > :38:41.First, there were seven last year. But by next year there could be 67
:38:41. > :38:46.academies in the East Midlands. Now one council is so worried that it's
:38:46. > :38:51.warning schools not to quit the local authority sector. Chris
:38:51. > :38:58.Doidge reports. Firing up their imagination.
:38:58. > :39:03.Children at a Nottinghamshire school which specialises in science.
:39:03. > :39:06.Now get me the bottle with a copper in it. But until recently, there
:39:06. > :39:10.was a big cloud hanging over the place. The council was ready to
:39:10. > :39:14.turn off the gas and shut the school. The local authority had a
:39:14. > :39:20.look at how they might rationalise the number of schools in the area.
:39:20. > :39:24.One of the options was too close this score. Looking at the academy
:39:24. > :39:29.status was one of the options of being able to keep the school open.
:39:29. > :39:32.Academies give greater control to head teachers and school governors.
:39:32. > :39:35.Schools are responsible to local governments at the moment, but
:39:35. > :39:39.academies are responsible to themselves and ultimately to the
:39:39. > :39:42.government. The cult -- the collision is willing to sweeten the
:39:42. > :39:45.deal for those who want to switch. But academies are controversial.
:39:45. > :39:48.They allow schools to select some pupils based on aptitude. Staff
:39:48. > :39:52.contracts can be changed. And some say breaking the link with councils
:39:52. > :39:54.will make schools more selfish. But another reason academies are
:39:54. > :39:59.controversial is the introduction of private companies and other
:39:59. > :40:08.organisations into state education. Charitable trust E-Act will help
:40:08. > :40:13.Gedling become an academy and will be paid for its efforts. We will
:40:13. > :40:17.help them at build on its stance. We will identify places where they
:40:17. > :40:20.need to improve in order to become more successful and more popular,
:40:20. > :40:24.and we will secure the future of the school.
:40:24. > :40:28.This school is being forced to become an Academy in order to
:40:28. > :40:32.survive. But like this call in Derby, they want to become an
:40:32. > :40:34.academy and they are getting help from the council to do it.
:40:34. > :40:37.In February, Derby City Council brought in a policy of "supporting
:40:37. > :40:40.academy schools and academy trust proposals in Derby, as one part of
:40:40. > :40:43.the Council's approach to securing a high-performing school system".
:40:43. > :40:52.Lees Brook school is taking up the council's offer - its application's
:40:52. > :40:56.just gone in. I am interested in that scene schools to what is best
:40:56. > :40:59.for the children. It schools and the local authority area wish to go
:41:00. > :41:03.to academy status, I will give them as much support as they need. If
:41:03. > :41:06.they wish to stay within the local authority, I will give them that
:41:06. > :41:08.support as well. But a very different approach is being taken
:41:08. > :41:14.in Nottingham, where the city council's actively discouraging
:41:14. > :41:18.schools from leaving its control to become an academy. I do not believe
:41:18. > :41:22.that all the implications of academy status had been taken into
:41:22. > :41:28.account by some of the schools. What are the implications and
:41:28. > :41:32.dangers? At the moment, as a local authority, we have support from
:41:32. > :41:35.schools, we are not a shackle to schools, which is something that
:41:35. > :41:40.has been suggested. The local authority picks up the slack in a
:41:40. > :41:44.lot of different ways, for example, we bear the large cost of
:41:44. > :41:50.redundancy costs if people take early retirement. We give lots of
:41:50. > :41:53.specialist advice in things like asbestos too complicated matters of
:41:53. > :42:00.human resources. His concerns are shared by teachers, some of whom
:42:00. > :42:04.have taken strike over their plans to convert. Philosophically, we are
:42:04. > :42:11.opposed to them because they are an attack on quality comprehensive
:42:11. > :42:14.education. Secondly, we are opposed to them on administrative grounds
:42:14. > :42:19.because practically, it is far better to deliver education in a
:42:19. > :42:22.co-ordinated way across a geographical area or rather than
:42:22. > :42:26.individual schools working on their own in isolation. But some believe
:42:26. > :42:31.all schools might eventually become academies. I think the sky is the
:42:31. > :42:36.limit. When I started working in that 11 years ago, we were pleased
:42:36. > :42:40.to get one project a month. But now I gather there is a new Academy
:42:40. > :42:43.opening more than one a day in the country. The Prime Minister wants
:42:43. > :42:47.all schools to become academies, but who knows how long that will
:42:47. > :42:53.take. One year ago, there were seven old school academies in the
:42:53. > :42:59.East Midlands. 12 months on, that has gone up to 18. There are now a
:42:59. > :43:04.further 49 which are planning on becoming an a can of beer. That
:43:04. > :43:07.could make them a sizable chunk of the schools in the region. --
:43:07. > :43:10.becoming an academy. Many headteachers remain to be
:43:10. > :43:13.convinced by the idea of becoming an academy. But with the government
:43:13. > :43:16.giving its full backing to academies, the days of the council-
:43:16. > :43:18.run school may be numbered. So are schools taking a real risk
:43:18. > :43:21.by becoming academies? With me now Nottingham councillor, David Mellen,
:43:21. > :43:31.who we heard from in Chris's report, and Councillor Philip Owen, the
:43:31. > :43:31.
:43:31. > :43:35.cabinet member for education on Nottinghamshire County Council.
:43:35. > :43:43.Philip Owen, the first of all. You're encouraging schools to
:43:43. > :43:49.become academies, but you're not pointing out the dangers.
:43:49. > :43:55.policy is to support those schools which want to become academies and
:43:55. > :43:59.a research carefully all aspects of becoming an academy. We think it is
:43:59. > :44:04.important to allow schools to have a diversity of governance and that
:44:04. > :44:08.is our policy. We will continue to support them in whatever they want.
:44:08. > :44:13.We think it is a good thing. It beat schools want to do it, on the
:44:13. > :44:17.whole, it is good. David, you can see the political direction of
:44:17. > :44:22.travel, so why is a Nottingham City not getting on board? We work
:44:22. > :44:27.closely with the Academy's we have. They were brought in in a different
:44:27. > :44:33.system with business partners and educational partners. My concern is
:44:33. > :44:38.that the offer to all schools is taking place in a rush and that not
:44:38. > :44:42.all of the implications for becoming an academy, taking on that
:44:42. > :44:45.new status, are being considered. Rush, impatience, you hear that
:44:45. > :44:50.quite a bit about this government. Are they doing that with education?
:44:50. > :44:54.I do not think they are. They have been academies for a number of
:44:55. > :44:58.years. It is not a new policy, but an expanding policy. I think that
:44:58. > :45:03.if there are pitfalls, they will have been sorted out and realised
:45:03. > :45:07.by now. But local authorities can give a special support at the
:45:07. > :45:12.moment you schools if they get into illegal financial difficulties.
:45:12. > :45:18.Isn't there a danger that they soon it will not have enough money to
:45:18. > :45:23.support those calls if the cash, the Revenue, is not coming in?
:45:23. > :45:27.that is not the case. What Academy Schools will do it is to buy in the
:45:27. > :45:30.support that they need. There can be from the county council or the
:45:30. > :45:36.city council if they so wish, or it can be from another provider. The
:45:36. > :45:41.choice is for the score and that is an important issue. It is a choice,
:45:41. > :45:46.and if schools to decide they want to go down this route, we will work
:45:46. > :45:56.closely in Nottingham with all schools with all governments
:45:56. > :45:58.
:45:58. > :46:02.varieties. -- governments. I think as schools together, we have shown
:46:02. > :46:05.in Nottingham, a huge rise in standards recently when we have
:46:05. > :46:09.worked together. Why shouldn't authorities like yours keep the
:46:09. > :46:14.money when the services that could be offered far more cheaply by
:46:14. > :46:19.other operators? At the moment, the schools that remain in local
:46:19. > :46:22.authority control do not have a choice. They do. The whole phrase
:46:22. > :46:25.local authority control is a bit misleading because schools have
:46:25. > :46:29.freedom in the way they buy their services, but they choose, most of
:46:29. > :46:34.them, to buy their services back from local authority because they
:46:34. > :46:38.know that they are geared for schools in the City and they have a
:46:38. > :46:44.say in how they are delivered. it is turning the concept on his
:46:44. > :46:48.head, in effect? I think it is, but the possibility is that a lot of
:46:48. > :46:56.independent schools in an area could be a recipe for chaos in
:46:56. > :46:59.terms of admissions, place planning, the whole way that education to
:46:59. > :47:05.citizens of Nottingham and the family is in Nottingham is provided.
:47:05. > :47:09.Let me put the same question to you, Philip. When Blair introduced this
:47:09. > :47:19.idea initially, it was to help failing schools but now it is about
:47:19. > :47:25.
:47:25. > :47:32.encouraging sex assault course. -- successful schools. It is about
:47:32. > :47:38.driving up standards and bringing in their expertise. But what about
:47:38. > :47:42.those schools that become academies and the issue of admissions policy.
:47:42. > :47:47.If those schools are oversubscribed, how does the school decide who they
:47:47. > :47:53.are going to take him? Are we in effect seeing a return to selection
:47:53. > :47:58.at 11? We are not seen that because academies, like all other schools,
:47:58. > :48:04.have to abide by the school's admissions code. And there is a --
:48:04. > :48:09.an adjudicator if there are questions Amy be booting a code.
:48:09. > :48:12.Nottingham, there isn't any selection in that way. We work
:48:12. > :48:15.closely with our academies and we have got good relationships, but
:48:15. > :48:21.the governance structure of an academy does not allow
:48:22. > :48:26.accountability to local people. Not in the same way. These are
:48:26. > :48:29.independent trust governing bodies and of course parents have the
:48:29. > :48:36.choice to send their parents -- children there or not, but there is
:48:36. > :48:40.accountability through the council as well. They -- this argument is
:48:40. > :48:47.quite illusory. Local authorities have not had direct control over
:48:47. > :48:57.the scores for getting on for 25 years. When local schools were
:48:57. > :49:00.
:49:00. > :49:03.introduced, this argument was put ahead then. Thank you to you both.
:49:03. > :49:07.David Cameron has made five pledges in an attempt to reassure voters
:49:07. > :49:10.and NHS staff about his health service reforms. Will they do the
:49:10. > :49:13.trick? One politician who should know is Charnwood MP, Stephen
:49:13. > :49:19.Dorrell, a former health secretary himself and now chairman of the
:49:19. > :49:28.Commons health select committee. At Westminster, I asked him if those
:49:28. > :49:33.pledges are enough, or would he add any more?
:49:33. > :49:38.I do not think it is a question of adding to it. It is a question of
:49:38. > :49:42.carrying through a commitment to maintain an NHS free at the point
:49:42. > :49:46.of delivery, but critically maintaining commitment to ensure
:49:46. > :49:51.that the NHS changes in order to deliver improving standards and
:49:51. > :49:56.improving efficiency. Resources are going to be tighter and that does
:49:56. > :49:59.require changes in the way the care system is delivered. But the Prime
:49:59. > :50:05.Minister was a rattled by a controversy over the original
:50:05. > :50:08.proposals and in turn losing the confidence of voters. A government
:50:08. > :50:12.that listens when a proposal needs to be refined, that is good
:50:12. > :50:16.government. What the Prime Minister launched in the listening exercise
:50:16. > :50:22.was a commitment to ensure that all the expertise available through the
:50:22. > :50:25.can local community in -- clinical community is brought to bear to
:50:25. > :50:30.ensure that we have the whole structure which is best able to
:50:30. > :50:36.deliver care for patients. It is the care for patients that is key.
:50:36. > :50:42.Politically, it was always a high- stress -- high risk strategy.
:50:42. > :50:48.you say high risk strategy, will we are committing to doing is ensuring
:50:48. > :50:51.that the health service changes. Sometimes it raises questions in
:50:51. > :50:55.people's minds, but the truth is that all of our lives, things are
:50:55. > :51:01.changing. In the health service, change is being driven by new
:51:01. > :51:05.medicines, new techniques, new expectations. Change is a fact of
:51:05. > :51:09.life and what we have to ensure is that the care that is delivered to
:51:09. > :51:16.patients reflects the best and most up-to-date practices. Too often in
:51:16. > :51:19.our health care system, it is fragmented. Separate parts of
:51:19. > :51:23.health and social care of do not Tote -- talk to each other and they
:51:23. > :51:25.do not relate to each other in the way that they have to if we are
:51:25. > :51:29.going to deliver the best quality and the most efficient forms of
:51:29. > :51:34.health care. That is the kind of change the Prime Minister is
:51:34. > :51:38.advocating. I think he is right. But you also advocating greater
:51:38. > :51:44.work to improve the productivity of the NHS, to release those funds.
:51:44. > :51:49.Where can that be found? It has become commonplace to almost that
:51:49. > :51:54.people are sent from the primary care centres to the community to
:51:54. > :51:58.the social services. The systems do not talk to each other so elderly
:51:58. > :52:03.people end up answering the same set of questions several times over.
:52:03. > :52:07.That is not only very bad care for the elderly person concerned, it is
:52:07. > :52:11.also extremely wasteful. Making those systems work more efficiently,
:52:11. > :52:15.more integrated care, is both better care of and more efficient
:52:15. > :52:21.care. The is that something you have seen on the ground in your own
:52:21. > :52:24.constituency? Absolutely. This is not something that is separate or
:52:24. > :52:31.exists in one part of the country and not another. There are
:52:31. > :52:35.differences, of course, but the separation which currently exists
:52:35. > :52:40.between the GP service, the Community Nurse Service, the social
:52:40. > :52:44.services and all of those, and the hospital service, that is endemic
:52:44. > :52:48.in our system and that is what need urgently to be addressed. In terms
:52:48. > :52:53.of an issue that is on your doorstep as well, the issue of
:52:53. > :52:57.Glenfield Hospital. What are your concerns about the proposals?
:52:57. > :53:03.not an issue around the hospital as a whole, it is an issue around
:53:03. > :53:06.child heart surgery which is delivered there. This is a very
:53:06. > :53:10.specific specialism. It is delivered in nine centres around
:53:10. > :53:13.the country at the moment. It has been -- there has been a
:53:13. > :53:20.departmental professional review to look at the standards and
:53:20. > :53:22.efficiencies in each of their centres. But if the review goes
:53:22. > :53:27.against the Children's Heart Unit, what then?
:53:27. > :53:32.What am not in favour of his local institutions arguing against each
:53:32. > :53:36.other and patient care suffering as a consequence. One final thought:
:53:36. > :53:40.It was noticeable when you were interviewed by David Dimbleby on
:53:40. > :53:47.Question Time, he prompted that you could be the ideal next Secretary
:53:47. > :53:50.of State for state. Would you welcome back? I was elected at the
:53:50. > :53:56.beginning of Parliament to beat the chair of the Health Select
:53:56. > :53:58.Committee. I stood for the post because I wanted to do it for the
:53:58. > :54:03.lifetime of Parliament and that remains the position. Added to
:54:03. > :54:06.which, there is not a vacancy anyway. I think that is a no.
:54:06. > :54:14.Now we're certainly not ageist on the Politics Show. But is the
:54:14. > :54:19.Government? Kettering MP, Philip Hollobone seems to think so.
:54:19. > :54:29.Why do magistrates have to retire at the age of 70 when the Lord
:54:29. > :54:31.
:54:31. > :54:34.Chancellor who appoints them is 71 The point I would make to my
:54:34. > :54:38.honourable friend is that it is important, and I speak as someone
:54:38. > :54:45.whose mother served as a magistrate further breeder groups, but you get
:54:45. > :54:49.turnover in the magistracy is so mauled -- new people come in. He
:54:49. > :54:53.has only been in his job for a year and he is doing a superb job. There
:54:53. > :54:55.is plenty more fuel in his tank. Now if there's one person who
:54:55. > :55:03.agrees with Philip Hollobone it's certainly Roy Plumb. He's been
:55:03. > :55:13.forced to retire as a magistrate because he's 70. And he's not happy.
:55:13. > :55:18.In your case, Roy, the age distinction seems even more absurd.
:55:18. > :55:24.Absolutely. I have the same birth there as Ken Clarke. I am born on
:55:24. > :55:30.the same day, in the same year, at the same hospital, in the same ward.
:55:30. > :55:33.I rather suspect that we have an equivalent amount of equality.
:55:33. > :55:38.is the justice secretary and you have been forced to retire as a
:55:38. > :55:42.magistrate. Had the feel? I'm not happy, I did not want to retire. I
:55:42. > :55:48.did write to the listers bash at the Ministry of Justice and to Ken
:55:48. > :55:58.Clarke when he had been appointed. -- I did write to the Ministry of
:55:58. > :56:00.
:56:00. > :56:04.I have spoken to him about the subject and his response was that
:56:04. > :56:08.if we had any ideas about what would improve the prospect of
:56:08. > :56:13.ageism and doing away with it, he did admit that ageism was something
:56:13. > :56:17.that he would reconsider. He would have another look at the issues. I
:56:17. > :56:21.wrote to him and never got a reply. You can see the problem you have
:56:21. > :56:26.got because the Prime Minister is not convinced. The Magistrates'
:56:26. > :56:31.Association have told us that they agree with the prime minister.
:56:31. > :56:37.may agree with him, but maybe if the Prime Minister was covered by
:56:37. > :56:43.the same rules that I'm covered by, perhaps the MPs would -- or to
:56:43. > :56:46.retire at 70. Have you got more fuel in your tank? Absolutely!
:56:46. > :56:49.David Cameron and the Magistrates' Association say that that
:56:49. > :56:55.retirement age is to get more blurred into the magistrates'
:56:55. > :57:00.system. Have they got a point was no idea not disagree with that.
:57:00. > :57:04.There is a reason for getting new blood into the magistracy, but at
:57:04. > :57:08.the same time the experienced magistrates would be offering
:57:08. > :57:12.absolutely ideal experienced support for the new magistrates to
:57:12. > :57:17.get through the courts system. where does this campaign of yours
:57:17. > :57:22.go? You have contacted your local MP. The I have. All I can say is
:57:22. > :57:29.that I'm really hoping that someone will at long last see the light. I
:57:29. > :57:32.am still in contact with the government departments. All of whom
:57:32. > :57:36.are either do not respond or respond in a rather bland fashion.