:00:44. > :00:51.In the east we shine a spotlight on the council headed for almost one
:00:51. > :00:54.decade by Amman now convicted of fraud - Lord Hanningfield.
:00:54. > :01:04.And as strikes loom ahead a Union Square up over job losses and
:01:04. > :01:04.
:01:04. > :43:00.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2516 seconds
:43:00. > :43:08.Good morning. This week - union members in public sector jobs take
:43:08. > :43:13.a hard line over job cuts and pension provisions. We are going to
:43:13. > :43:21.lose the services that our state has been built on. These are not
:43:21. > :43:26.services for scroungers and cheats. These are services that we need.
:43:26. > :43:30.First to the case of Lord Hanningfield. He will be sentenced
:43:30. > :43:35.for a fraught later this week. Lord Hanningfield is the only person to
:43:35. > :43:40.have been convicted after the expenses scandal who have the dual
:43:40. > :43:44.role of running a council. He was elected on to Essex County Council
:43:44. > :43:49.in 1970 and was leader for nine years before he was forced to
:43:49. > :43:54.resign. Now a police inquiry is looking into whether there has been
:43:54. > :43:59.amiss use of Essex taxpayer's money. Liberal Democrat on the council
:43:59. > :44:03.have called for an investigation into improper use of council
:44:03. > :44:06.resources following the recent trial of Lord Hanningfield. If we
:44:06. > :44:11.ask whether concerns were expressed during his time in office and
:44:11. > :44:15.whether anything was done about them. Our reporter is looking at
:44:15. > :44:19.whether the checks and balances on our counsellors are working.
:44:19. > :44:26.Lord Hanningfield was good at spending taxpayers' money.
:44:26. > :44:31.Expensive restaurants. He lived the high life. At his trial the jury
:44:31. > :44:36.heard he had a county council credit card and run up costs of
:44:36. > :44:40.�5,000 per month. He said in his defence at the trial that all this
:44:40. > :44:48.entertainment was essential as it helps the council negotiate
:44:48. > :44:54.contracts which would say that millions of pounds. He became the
:44:54. > :44:59.man crowned King of Essex. I have raised questions of transparency
:44:59. > :45:04.and accountability. How was it that a single individual was allowed to
:45:04. > :45:09.do what he did? It was Lord Hanningfield's use of a council car
:45:09. > :45:12.that led to his downfall. The driver would taken to the House of
:45:12. > :45:17.Lords and home again while he fraudulently claimed overnight
:45:17. > :45:23.house of Lords allowances. Or the chauffeur would have to wait while
:45:23. > :45:28.the boss entertained guests at restaurants. The spotlight has now
:45:28. > :45:32.turned on the expense claims he made and the charges he ran up at
:45:32. > :45:38.Essex County Council. Police are now investigating. It may turn out
:45:38. > :45:41.to be at all of Lord Hanningfield's claims and Essex were legitimate.
:45:41. > :45:50.The show for it also had a pass to the House of Lords. That was quite
:45:50. > :45:56.clear. I raised this with the chief executive at the time. He defended
:45:56. > :46:00.the position after great consideration, but Lord
:46:01. > :46:10.Hanningfield's role at the House of Lords was also blurred in so far as
:46:10. > :46:14.he would be raising Essex County Council matters in the House.
:46:14. > :46:21.then chief executive of the council says he warned Lord Hanningfield
:46:21. > :46:31.one decade ago about the use of the one decade ago about the use of the
:46:31. > :46:54.
:46:54. > :46:59.While it has not been alleged that Lord Hanningfield did anything
:46:59. > :47:03.unlawful at Essex County Council there were other concerns - about
:47:03. > :47:05.insuring value for money. The council was spending large sums of
:47:05. > :47:11.public cash on entertainment and foreign trips which some
:47:11. > :47:17.councillors questioned. There seemed to be no limit to the amount
:47:17. > :47:22.of money that was available. This councillor's husband who is also a
:47:22. > :47:26.councillor put in a Freedom of Information request about a trip to
:47:26. > :47:32.Virginia's attended by many people from the authority. I thought it
:47:32. > :47:36.was wrong that we should be seen to be taking trips abroad to America
:47:36. > :47:42.and China at the same time as saying we did not have enough
:47:43. > :47:47.funding to run facilities for up elderly people and children. We put
:47:47. > :47:51.in a number of Freedom of Information request. We have asked
:47:51. > :47:56.for a detailed breakdown of Lord Hanningfield's expenses. We also
:47:56. > :47:59.wanted to know what he charged to his council credit card. The
:47:59. > :48:04.council has declined saying it will not do so while there is a current
:48:04. > :48:07.police investigation. This Essex councillor is concerned
:48:07. > :48:14.about the number of foreign trips and how council money is being
:48:14. > :48:18.spent. I am an elected councillor. As an backbencher I know what my
:48:18. > :48:26.responsibilities are. I know what is reasonable. Ignorance cannot be
:48:26. > :48:34.used as an excuse or an opportunity. If other people knew that was
:48:34. > :48:40.happening then it they should be challenged. There has to be a major
:48:40. > :48:44.independent investigation into what has been going on at the County
:48:44. > :48:48.Hall for the last seven years. The evidence that came out at that
:48:48. > :48:54.trial indicates that there are many questions relating to the
:48:54. > :49:00.stewardship and governments of Essex County Council. Lessons are
:49:00. > :49:05.always learned. As in plane crashes. But planes go on crashing. There is
:49:05. > :49:11.no way that any political system can be made perfect. If you have an
:49:11. > :49:14.appropriate local culture of people who want honesty and integrity and
:49:14. > :49:19.public-spirited this, that in itself will make a difference. It
:49:19. > :49:22.also helps to have institutions in place, people whose job it is to
:49:22. > :49:28.find out whether things have gone wrong with a view to blowing the
:49:28. > :49:34.whistle. Two years ago the disgraced peer signed this strategy
:49:34. > :49:37.on it fighting fraud and corruption. The authority he once ran faces
:49:37. > :49:43.match questions once this investigation is over. He will be
:49:43. > :49:46.sentenced next week. Essex County Council could not
:49:46. > :49:56.provide anybody to be with us for the programme that they have said
:49:56. > :49:56.
:49:56. > :50:51.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2516 seconds
:50:51. > :50:55.the programme that they have said Joining me now it is a Conservative
:50:55. > :51:01.MP for South West Norfolk and the regional organiser of the Unison
:51:01. > :51:06.union. Moving away from the specifics of
:51:06. > :51:11.Essex, if we can talk in general terms, what can council staff to if
:51:11. > :51:21.they have concerns over expenses or indeed any procedures within a
:51:21. > :51:21.
:51:21. > :51:26.council? There are a number of options. They are mostly to do with
:51:26. > :51:33.using a whistle-blowing policy. Most councils have a whistle-
:51:33. > :51:39.blowing policy. It is important that the staff have confidence in
:51:39. > :51:45.the internal systems to raise issues. I am not sure that that is
:51:45. > :51:49.the case. I have come across a number of instances were staff
:51:49. > :51:53.raised issues but these are ignored or the people that raise them are
:51:53. > :51:58.penalised. I am not talking about Essex County Council but I have
:51:58. > :52:03.been around local councils for a long time and this is my experience.
:52:03. > :52:13.Whistleblowers can lose their jobs. I have seen that happen. I have
:52:13. > :52:13.
:52:13. > :52:18.represented members and I have managed to get in the instated. The
:52:18. > :52:22.professor had it right. There needs to be an element of trust. But
:52:22. > :52:31.there needs to be a culture within the council where the systems are
:52:31. > :52:36.used. There needs to be scrutiny on the processes. It needs to be
:52:36. > :52:41.people whose jobs it is to ensure that expenses are done correctly.
:52:41. > :52:45.Talking in general terms, let us talk about the relationship between
:52:45. > :52:49.council leaders and chief executives. Leaders have a larger
:52:50. > :52:54.say in the appointment of chief executives. Yet as I understand
:52:54. > :53:00.that it is chief executives but are the check and balance for the
:53:00. > :53:05.leaders and what they are doing. There is conflict there. I do not
:53:05. > :53:08.think there is a conflict. In companies you often have a finance
:53:08. > :53:12.director who is responsible for making sure that everything works
:53:12. > :53:17.in the right way. They will be appointed by the chief executive,
:53:17. > :53:21.but they have a professional role and they are meant to blow the
:53:21. > :53:25.whistle if the chief executive is behaving in the wrong way. What we
:53:25. > :53:29.need is more openness and transparency to that outside so
:53:29. > :53:33.that the public can see what their money is being spent on. Sometimes
:53:33. > :53:40.we have to rely on staff to do the whistle-blowing but really tax
:53:40. > :53:45.payers should be seeing how their money is being spent. We have
:53:45. > :53:48.published all items of expenditure over �500. We have a system where
:53:48. > :53:54.MPs publish their expenses nationally. That is the kind of
:53:54. > :54:00.thing you need. Then people can see whether it is really value for
:54:00. > :54:04.money to be holding a dinner with these clients for these businesses.
:54:04. > :54:09.Up until now a local government expenses we are told had been
:54:09. > :54:16.largely taken on trust and that is not good enough. It is not good
:54:16. > :54:20.enough. That is one of the issues with MPs' expenses. You had a
:54:20. > :54:22.relationship between people where there was deference towards members
:54:22. > :54:29.of Parliament and therefore people did not feel right about
:54:29. > :54:33.questioning some of the expenses. Transparency and openness is a more
:54:33. > :54:37.effective way in the modern world where we have the internet, where
:54:37. > :54:41.people can publish a large amount of information at very low cost.
:54:41. > :54:46.That is a better way of making things work effectively rather than
:54:46. > :54:52.relying on trust. As I union do you have suggestions about how things
:54:52. > :54:57.could be improved? The first thing to realise is that the relationship
:54:57. > :55:02.between members and officers in the council is a complex one. There is
:55:02. > :55:06.a need for reform. When you have Cabinet style local government what
:55:06. > :55:12.happens is power get concentrated amongst a small group of elected
:55:12. > :55:17.members. Time and time again that group of people develop special
:55:17. > :55:21.relationships with senior officers in the council. What you have is
:55:21. > :55:27.that the scrutiny that you would otherwise have through full council
:55:27. > :55:32.is committed in that relationship. We will have to leave it there. We
:55:32. > :55:36.will come back to you shortly. On Thursday thousands of members
:55:36. > :55:42.will strike for the day in what is being seen as the first sign of
:55:42. > :55:47.union anger over cuts in pensions. Industrial action was also the main
:55:47. > :55:52.talking point at the Unison union conference this week. Union members
:55:52. > :55:59.are angry about the pain being suffered but will it lead to an
:55:59. > :56:03.autumn of discontent? Whether you call them necessary
:56:03. > :56:09.savings or ideological cuts, it is that people who work for a local
:56:09. > :56:15.authorities who have been in the firing line. 2654 people have been
:56:15. > :56:19.made redundant by county councils and local authorities this year.
:56:20. > :56:28.Another 9,000 jobs are expected to go over the next three -- over the
:56:29. > :56:34.next three years. I worked at a Council for 20 years. It felt soul
:56:34. > :56:39.destroying losing my job. It is a vocation. I put my heart and soul
:56:39. > :56:44.into it. There are plenty of stories like that. These two are
:56:44. > :56:49.former social workers. I appreciate that savings had to be made. We
:56:49. > :56:52.would have welcomed an opportunity to have been able to discuss
:56:52. > :56:56.whether there were economies that could be made with our service.
:56:56. > :57:03.Some people are talking about it autumn of discontent. Can you see
:57:03. > :57:07.that? Yes I can see that happening. People across. People feel do some
:57:07. > :57:13.power. They have not been included so far been thinking about how to
:57:13. > :57:18.do things differently. Sometimes when you were left without any
:57:19. > :57:25.other options that is what happens. That would hurt a lot of people.
:57:25. > :57:29.Cuts had a lot of people as well. That was the main talking point at
:57:29. > :57:33.their Unison conference in Manchester. It was clear from
:57:33. > :57:37.conversations outside and speeches inside that members are angry.
:57:37. > :57:42.we do not go on strike we will lose the services that our state has
:57:42. > :57:52.been built on. These are not services for scroungers and cheats.
:57:52. > :57:54.
:57:54. > :57:59.These are services that we need. They are cutting further now than
:57:59. > :58:05.Margaret Thatcher ever did. general secretary put his union are
:58:05. > :58:10.on standby for industrial action, but no ballot has been called yet.
:58:10. > :58:14.There is no doubt that people are angry that that does not mean
:58:14. > :58:17.industrial action is inevitable. Union leaders wonder how much
:58:17. > :58:22.support there would really be amongst their largely low-paid
:58:22. > :58:26.membership for what could be a long drawn-out campaign. What would the
:58:26. > :58:31.public think it services already under pressure from cuts were
:58:31. > :58:34.affected by strike action? That is why there are many in the union
:58:34. > :58:41.leadership who believe there is a lot of mileage to be had been
:58:41. > :58:46.talking. There are a number of areas where the Government has
:58:46. > :58:53.changed their mind. The Government is not making the cuts the first
:58:53. > :59:03.said they would. But in certain circumstances it may well be
:59:03. > :59:06.necessary for action to be taken. Back in Norwich are a two social
:59:06. > :59:10.workers are setting up a business to work with problem children. It
:59:10. > :59:17.is what they used to do before they were made redundant. My personal
:59:17. > :59:26.view is that the impact of the cuts has not really hit yet. The general
:59:26. > :59:30.public have not experienced that impact yet. As the increasingly do
:59:30. > :59:35.they will see more sense in any industrial action. Let us get this
:59:35. > :59:40.clear. There is a day of action next Thursday but you Union is not
:59:40. > :59:47.part of it. Why is that? It is not that we do not support the
:59:47. > :59:52.sentiments of our colleagues. That is a separate negotiation. I am not
:59:52. > :59:58.ruling out potential problems in the future, but the regional
:59:58. > :00:02.secretary Peter it nicely. No one likes to go on strike. It is a
:00:02. > :00:07.position you take when you have no other choice. Hopefully we will not
:00:07. > :00:17.be there in the future. The biggest cuts in public spending in eight
:00:17. > :00:17.
:00:17. > :00:24.years. Industrial action is inevitable. The discussion is about
:00:24. > :00:26.pensions. The problem is the disparity between public sector and
:00:26. > :00:31.private sector pensions and the underfunding of public sector
:00:31. > :00:36.pensions. That has been going on for years. We have an unfunded
:00:36. > :00:40.pension scheme that needs to be dealt with. I take your point, but
:00:40. > :00:47.are you saying that people are not angry about job losses? We were
:00:47. > :00:50.hearing that in excess of 9,000 job losses may occur in our own region.
:00:50. > :00:54.The unions need to work with the Government to find a better way of
:00:54. > :01:04.doing things. In a lot of companies people are agreeing to take pay
:01:04. > :01:10.freezes or pay cuts so that more workers can be retained. I would
:01:10. > :01:17.like to invite you to shadow me in a day of negotiations. My job
:01:17. > :01:22.currently is doing exactly what is being talked about. These
:01:22. > :01:27.discussions are ongoing. Pay freezes and pay cuts are happening
:01:27. > :01:31.but we are still seeing thousands of redundancies. As a union do you
:01:31. > :01:40.except that we are in difficult times and that sacrifices have to
:01:40. > :01:48.be made? Trade unions fully understand that. The question is
:01:48. > :01:53.why are we where we act at? What this government has done is to
:01:53. > :01:58.equate their deficit with public sector spending. The deficit was
:01:58. > :02:03.created by a greedy bankers and they are getting away three. This
:02:03. > :02:09.year they are getting �7 billion in bonuses. Public-sector workers are
:02:09. > :02:14.taking a hammering. That is unfair. There is also that issues with
:02:14. > :02:20.banks. We are working on reforming the banking sector. We have spent a
:02:20. > :02:24.huge amount of public money on and reformed public services and in
:02:24. > :02:28.particular the terms and conditions that we are operating with.
:02:28. > :02:34.Currently terms and conditions are too rigid. It is not benefiting the