:00:46. > :00:49.Here in the East, we're at Dale Farm in Essex in the aftermath of
:00:49. > :00:53.the evictions. The time ran out for the travellers this week. The
:00:53. > :01:03.talking was over and ultimately, so, too, was the resistance. But hasn't
:01:03. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :30:35.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1772 seconds
:30:35. > :30:41.the time come to avoid this ever Hello. Welcome to the Politics Show
:30:41. > :30:44.in the East. I'm Etholle George. I am in the ruins of Dale Farm.
:30:44. > :30:53.Around me is the debris from the lives of 86 families who lived here
:30:53. > :30:58.for a decade. This week, Basildon Council attempted to evict
:30:58. > :31:08.travellers from the illegal camp. In the end, they left of their own
:31:08. > :31:08.
:31:08. > :31:13.accord. On the day, officers moved in at dawn. 38 people were arrested.
:31:13. > :31:19.One of them was targeted by a Taser. Five people were injured in the
:31:19. > :31:24.clashes. They were between police and residents supporters. This is
:31:24. > :31:32.the story. It started early in the morning.
:31:32. > :31:39.Lines of police in riot gear break through the eastern fence.
:31:39. > :31:43.Throughout the day, protesters were removed from roofs, taken from
:31:43. > :31:49.trees and manhandled into cages. Some travellers ran from the
:31:49. > :31:54.eviction clutching possessions in their arms. They promised us
:31:54. > :31:59.bailiffs and police to ask us to leave police believe. I am
:31:59. > :32:04.disgusted. Riot police to come to women and children. What do they
:32:04. > :32:10.think we are? The protesters took up the fight and police battled
:32:10. > :32:16.under a barrage of broken bricks. Paramedics took the injured away on
:32:16. > :32:22.stretchers. We came under hostile action from the protesters. They
:32:22. > :32:27.threw concrete at us and tried to hit us with implements. We managed
:32:27. > :32:36.to make Our objective which was to get here around the scaffold.
:32:36. > :32:43.the efforts turned into Clearing the iconic gallantry, the day
:32:43. > :32:49.turned into a violent confrontation between two sides. I am clear that
:32:49. > :32:54.if the truth was given to the wider world, they would see the criminal
:32:54. > :33:00.law of this country has been broken. The expectation is on public bodies
:33:00. > :33:06.to enforce the law. There battle may be over, but has this done
:33:06. > :33:11.anything to further either cause? Or have they created irreparable
:33:11. > :33:16.damage to the reputation of both sides. The next day, it took half-
:33:16. > :33:21.an-hour to take down the gate. The travellers seem to have had enough
:33:21. > :33:26.and wanted to leave with their heads held high. They walked out
:33:26. > :33:30.with their supporters. We are more than happy to have the support.
:33:30. > :33:35.Also they will be our personal friends for ever. The travel has
:33:35. > :33:40.say they have nowhere to go. Illegal sides have been
:33:40. > :33:47.proliferated since 1994, when the Conservatives scratched the law
:33:47. > :33:53.that required councils to provide them. It took the Labour Party 11
:33:53. > :33:58.years to restore it. Then it was changed. Will these scenes prove to
:33:58. > :34:03.be a watershed that could see the provision of sites up to increase,
:34:03. > :34:09.winning them the war in the longer run?
:34:09. > :34:12.With me is Councillor Tony Ball, the leader of Basildon Council. He
:34:12. > :34:20.oversaw the site clearance. The manner in which the clearance was
:34:20. > :34:25.carried out came as a shock to many. The police had got information over
:34:25. > :34:27.the few days preceding the operation that it would be
:34:27. > :34:33.impossible for bailiffs to enter the site piece for lead to carry
:34:33. > :34:39.out the decision of the courts. They decided to take the lead. The
:34:39. > :34:44.scenes we saw proved that was the right decision. In the end, four
:34:44. > :34:51.pitches stay. The road to the scrapyard it stays. It is not a
:34:51. > :34:57.green site. The green belt has many purposes. It is to stop residential
:34:57. > :35:05.development joining up. It stops urban sprawl. More about the future
:35:05. > :35:09.for travellers? Will the council provide any more legal sites?
:35:09. > :35:16.hope there is learning out of Dale Farm. I would not wish any
:35:16. > :35:20.community, traveller or settled, to go through this again. Basildon is
:35:20. > :35:26.the largest provider of authorised sites in the eastern region. We
:35:27. > :35:32.will have to learn from this. provide other sites? I understand
:35:32. > :35:38.that you are supposed to provide according to local need. There is
:35:38. > :35:44.need. The 113 sites we have will grow. Those families will need to
:35:44. > :35:49.be provided for. We will have to provide more legal sites as we go
:35:49. > :35:55.through the framework process. But there is a difference between need
:35:55. > :36:00.and demand. This was supposed to have planning permission. It is not
:36:00. > :36:07.a blanket ban on travellers in the borough. Once again, I ask whether
:36:07. > :36:12.you will welcome travellers here? We have a long history of living
:36:12. > :36:16.side by side with travellers in Basildon. All planning applications
:36:16. > :36:22.are considered on their merits. There is a challenge for both
:36:22. > :36:27.communities to found appropriate land that is suitable. Why it has
:36:27. > :36:34.this done to the reputation of Basildon? I do not want to see what
:36:34. > :36:39.we saw on Wednesday morning. Thank you.
:36:39. > :36:43.What is the future for the provision of travellers' sites. I
:36:44. > :36:49.spoke to Richard Howitt, the Labour MEP who was against the forced
:36:49. > :36:53.eviction at Dale Farm. I also spoke to John Barron -- John Baron, and
:36:53. > :36:56.asked if he had represented the interests of his travellers'
:36:56. > :37:02.constituents properly. It is right that Basildon Council clears the
:37:02. > :37:08.site. Otherwise people would ask why there is one law for one group
:37:08. > :37:16.of people and another for another. Those people who criticise Basildon
:37:16. > :37:21.Council, such as Richard on this show, I would ask him. Why has he
:37:22. > :37:27.been critical of Basildon Council, who have simply enforced the law.
:37:27. > :37:36.Richard Howitt, it is right the travellers were moved on, despite
:37:36. > :37:41.words of human rights. They got a fair hearing. It is right that if
:37:41. > :37:48.they are found a legal site and round they were on an illegal site.
:37:48. > :37:53.I have not said anything different. John Baron did not answer the
:37:53. > :37:59.question. 50 children born in hospital locally, those children
:37:59. > :38:03.who use the schools and worship in local churches, where the church
:38:03. > :38:12.leaders with me try to mediate and find a different solution. There
:38:12. > :38:16.are not many people in Basildon -- there are many people who had the
:38:16. > :38:21.alternative view and thought and mediated solution was possible. If
:38:21. > :38:25.this is not about discrimination by the council, why are they selling
:38:25. > :38:35.off seven green spaces across the town, with many residents opposed
:38:35. > :38:36.
:38:36. > :38:41.to it? They are prepared to sell off green spaces for bricks and
:38:41. > :38:44.mortar houses, but not to find space for travellers. It was the
:38:44. > :38:50.Conservatives who ended the obligation on councils to provide
:38:50. > :38:55.legal pitches. The coalition scratch targets for new ones. What
:38:55. > :39:01.evidence is there that councils will create more sites? We can be
:39:01. > :39:08.clear what has happened here. There is a shortage of sites. But, in the
:39:08. > :39:16.many years of a Labour government, their strategies did not have one
:39:16. > :39:20.authorise site. Going forward, introducing incentives to get more
:39:20. > :39:25.authorised sites created. You cannot get away from the fact that
:39:25. > :39:32.we either believe in the law in this country, or not. You cannot
:39:32. > :39:37.pick and choose. Let me answer that. Let's be clear. The law could have
:39:37. > :39:44.been respected without the terrible and shocking things we saw this
:39:44. > :39:48.week. Basildon Council could have saved �18 million of council tax
:39:48. > :39:53.money they used on this forced eviction. The travellers could have
:39:54. > :40:01.been involved in a voluntary resettlement to a different site,
:40:01. > :40:06.including a site in Basildon. The government had said they would
:40:06. > :40:09.allocate the land. We have been talking to the travellers for ten
:40:09. > :40:13.years. After ten years there is a point when you have to stop the
:40:13. > :40:20.talking and enforce the law. Have we witnessed a watershed moment
:40:20. > :40:25.this week? Watershed in the sense we have the largest unauthorised
:40:25. > :40:31.site in Europe. We clear to that site. We did not want to see the
:40:31. > :40:38.violence. When you have protesters throwing bricks and rocks, using
:40:38. > :40:43.iron bars in a threatening way. I believe Essex police, the bailiffs,
:40:43. > :40:51.and council officials acted in a professional way. They did their
:40:51. > :40:59.job. I want to ask about this turning point. Things could get
:40:59. > :41:03.better from this time onwards? new coalition government, it
:41:03. > :41:07.abolished financial help that the Labour government had four new
:41:07. > :41:11.travellers' pitches. A parliamentary answer last month
:41:11. > :41:19.showed the number of pictures had been going down under Labour
:41:19. > :41:22.consistently. I hope this is a watershed. I do not want to see
:41:22. > :41:30.what happened in Basildon repeated. I hope we will never see this
:41:30. > :41:35.shambles again. John Baron, are travellers welcome in Basildon?
:41:35. > :41:41.course they are welcome. Basildon District has over 110 authorised
:41:41. > :41:47.sites, more than any other councils in the country. We have a proud
:41:47. > :41:50.history of living in harmony with travellers and gypsies. This is not
:41:50. > :41:55.about racial discrimination. This is about people who contravened
:41:55. > :42:00.planning regulations. If we did not put that right, the other people
:42:00. > :42:07.who contravened regulations would ask why we had let them off. It
:42:07. > :42:14.would not be fair. What about the future? We need to accept there is
:42:14. > :42:18.an issue of racial discrimination. It is not a popular thing to say.
:42:18. > :42:22.Basildon has been treated differently in terms of the sell-
:42:22. > :42:32.off of green space. We must recognise that travellers are an
:42:32. > :42:35.
:42:35. > :42:39.ethnic group. They have their own culture. If they are prepared to
:42:39. > :42:44.move eagerly, their rights must be respected. This is not about racial
:42:44. > :42:47.discrimination. I have residence writing to me saying they have
:42:47. > :42:52.accidentally contravened the planning regulations and I write
:42:52. > :42:57.back telling them to obey the law. We are simply doing the same as
:42:57. > :43:02.regards travellers. If anybody suggests it is discrimination, it
:43:02. > :43:07.is irresponsible and risks inflaming the situation.
:43:07. > :43:14.This is Margaret McCarthy. She lived at Dale Farm for ten years.
:43:14. > :43:19.Tell us about the community here. It was wonderful when we moved here
:43:19. > :43:24.ten years ago. We are such a close family. We thought this would be
:43:24. > :43:29.our home. A chance to send the children to school and have our own
:43:29. > :43:36.doctor, we did not have to rush to the emergency department. Everybody
:43:36. > :43:44.was happy. A what about this past week? This last week has been like
:43:44. > :43:49.a nightmare. Everybody's heart is broken. The children crying, where
:43:49. > :43:54.are we going to live? The older people are worried. Nobody knows
:43:55. > :44:00.where they will go to. Everybody is asking what they are going to do,
:44:00. > :44:08.and there is no answer. How many families have moved on to the legal
:44:08. > :44:14.side? Maybe 35 families. naysayer? They cannot stay. They
:44:14. > :44:23.are there to find out what will happen next. Where will they go?
:44:23. > :44:28.There is no plan. We were trying to get sites built. We tried so hard.
:44:28. > :44:34.They are breaking up a big community that was so close. We
:44:34. > :44:38.will now be on the side of the road, breaking the law. How long will it
:44:38. > :44:47.take to get over what has happened over the past ten years? I will
:44:47. > :44:56.never get over this. I am not sleeping. I keep thinking about...
:44:56. > :44:58.I am sorry. Everybody is feeling the same way. I cannot understand
:44:58. > :45:03.how Basildon could not take the opportunity when the government
:45:03. > :45:09.gave them a piece of ground, that they could not build sites, instead
:45:09. > :45:18.of ruining lives. There is no justice for us people. Travellers
:45:18. > :45:21.have no rights. No matter what country. Nobody wants to have
:45:21. > :45:27.travellers' sites built. I have to leave it there.
:45:27. > :45:32.Thank you. How is the government going to address the issue of
:45:32. > :45:35.travellers' site? Is their new thinking now the coalition scrapped
:45:35. > :45:40.the planning framework. We asked the minister with responsibility
:45:40. > :45:49.for travellers. We want to remove anomalies that
:45:49. > :45:53.can give rise to this. For example, it is difficult if somebody sets up
:45:54. > :45:58.and all -- unauthorised development, at the moment it is difficult to
:45:58. > :46:02.enforce the law in these cases. The other thing I want to say it is we
:46:02. > :46:08.want to protect and support travellers who play by the rules.
:46:08. > :46:11.We say to councils the regional strategies go. There will be
:46:11. > :46:17.stronger enforcement powers for those who break the law but that
:46:17. > :46:21.you should as part of your assessment look sensibly at the
:46:21. > :46:28.provision of authorised sites. We have made money available to assist
:46:28. > :46:37.local authorities to build proper sites. We are giving travellers to
:46:37. > :46:40.stay on authorise side's greater protections under the law. You have
:46:40. > :46:46.faith in councils when they are left to make these decisions
:46:46. > :46:50.themselves? You have faith they will do the right thing, because
:46:50. > :46:55.travellers have certain rights to have places to live. They will not
:46:55. > :47:02.say we are not having any in our area? You yes, like any part of
:47:02. > :47:08.their local planning policy, they have to be based on evidence. And
:47:08. > :47:14.public examination by a an inspector. You cannot be capricious
:47:14. > :47:19.about it. I have spoken to councils in the east of England. Some
:47:19. > :47:27.already have authorised sites, doing a really good job. Others
:47:27. > :47:32.accept the reality that if they can have a sensible assessment of need,
:47:32. > :47:37.it can reflect what is in their area, they will recognise that and
:47:37. > :47:41.that is what we want to do, to work with them and help them to do that.
:47:41. > :47:45.Somebody interested in what the government plans are for
:47:45. > :47:49.travellers' sites is Gratton Puxon from the Gypsy Council, which
:47:50. > :47:56.lobbies politicians for the rights of gypsy and traveller people. What
:47:56. > :48:02.are your feelings about this week? This started as a small planning
:48:03. > :48:07.issue. We needed to get retrospective planning on this. It
:48:07. > :48:14.is not an unusual thing to happen but it escalated into a national
:48:14. > :48:19.scandal. Internationally, people have seen the UK joined the
:48:19. > :48:24.countries who are prepared to use are necessary and unjustified
:48:24. > :48:30.actions to move the community along. I was shocked to see that. I have
:48:30. > :48:35.been in the travellers Civil Rights Movement for 50 years and have
:48:35. > :48:40.never seen anything like it. I am sure it is not the end of Dale Farm.
:48:40. > :48:50.We have a public inquiry to see if we can get planning permission for
:48:50. > :48:52.
:48:52. > :48:55.land just across the a road. Talking about the politics of this,
:48:55. > :48:59.with the Conservatives at ending the requirement on councils to
:48:59. > :49:07.provide pitches, did that make a difference? Were we have tried to
:49:07. > :49:12.work with every government. This has gone against everything we work
:49:12. > :49:17.along with, that is to have a duty on councils to provide. And at
:49:17. > :49:23.least now to provide land where travellers would develop their own
:49:23. > :49:32.communities, a caravan park. why you viewing the work of
:49:32. > :49:39.successive governments? We have taken a big step backwards. The use
:49:39. > :49:48.of Tasers and battens to move people away. We have gone back into
:49:48. > :49:52.a bad era. We have gone back into terrible racism and intolerance.
:49:52. > :49:58.The way forward possibly, if the government can get its mind around
:49:58. > :50:02.it, is to say these are designated pieces of land that travellers can
:50:02. > :50:07.buy with a guarantee of getting planning permission. Most
:50:08. > :50:12.travellers do not want to go on council sites. We want sites that
:50:12. > :50:20.are run by travellers for themselves.