:00:12. > :00:15.This week on the Politics Show: As the fallout from the Fox affair
:00:15. > :00:19.continues, what does his departure mean for David Cameron and the
:00:19. > :00:24.Government? And does it prove that money still buys access in British
:00:24. > :00:28.politics? We'll hear from minister Grant Shapps, Shadow Defence
:00:28. > :00:33.Secretary Jim Murphy and the Euro- sceptic Tory backbenchers. I'm in
:00:33. > :00:36.Brussels awaiting the opening of a multimillion euro exhibition
:00:36. > :00:41.explaining what the European Parliament and EU is for. Amidst
:00:41. > :00:45.this awful crisis, could the UK's relationship with Europe be about
:00:45. > :00:52.to change radically? We'll debate the issue with UKIP leader, Nigel
:00:52. > :00:57.Farage. In London this week, how easy is it to sell stolen copper in
:00:57. > :01:03.the capital? Give me �400 for half a ton and to give him a call back.
:01:03. > :01:13.It was a done deal. Why the police want a new law to bring dodgy scrap
:01:13. > :01:18.
:01:18. > :01:22.Joining me throughout the programme journalist and author Eve Pollard
:01:22. > :01:26.and Times columnist, Phil Collins. First, let's get the latest news
:01:26. > :01:29.with Maxine Mawhinney. Good morning. The international
:01:29. > :01:33.protests against what demonstrators see as greed and mismanagement in
:01:33. > :01:36.the World Banking system are continuing. In several cities
:01:36. > :01:41.across the world, hundreds of people are camped out on the
:01:41. > :01:47.streets N London, protesters spent the night outside St Paul's
:01:47. > :01:51.Cathedral. The vicinity around St Paul's halls
:01:51. > :01:55.new residents today. And there's a notable police presence.
:01:55. > :01:59.financial industry is not acting in the interests of the general
:01:59. > :02:04.population. That's why I'm here. It's a lot calmer in London than it
:02:04. > :02:09.was in Rome last night. The Italian capital saw the most violent and
:02:09. > :02:12.destructive protests, as black hooded youths appeared to hijack
:02:12. > :02:16.otherwise peaceful demonstrations. New York's Times square was also
:02:16. > :02:20.occupied by protesters, describing themselves as representatives of
:02:20. > :02:24.the 99% of the population, which they say, has been forced to bear
:02:24. > :02:29.the brunt of the mistakes carried out by the wealthy 1%. The backdrop
:02:29. > :02:33.to these protests is the ever fraught situation in the eurozone,
:02:33. > :02:36.which threatens to turn an already weak global economy into an even
:02:36. > :02:41.worse recession. And that could increase dramatically the number of
:02:41. > :02:44.people demanding change, Democratically or otherwise.
:02:44. > :02:48.The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, has said legitimate
:02:48. > :02:51.questions have been raised about political lobbying. In the light of
:02:51. > :02:56.the resignation of the former Defence Secretary Liam Fox. Dr Fox
:02:56. > :03:00.allowed his friend, Adam Werritty, to organise meetings away from
:03:00. > :03:05.officials. Mr Hague said a report would be out in a few days and he
:03:05. > :03:08.dismissed allegations Dr Fox was able to pursue an independent
:03:08. > :03:14.foreign policy. The idea that it's possible to run a completely
:03:15. > :03:18.separate policy by one minister is a fanciful idea. The foreign policy
:03:18. > :03:23.of this country is said by me and the Prime Minister, working through
:03:23. > :03:28.the national Security Council, pursued by 140 ambassadors in 260
:03:28. > :03:32.embassies and kopbs lats. It's a huge operation. One advisor or non-
:03:32. > :03:37.advisor, whatever he may have been, to one minister, isn't able to run
:03:37. > :03:41.a totally different policy from the rest of the Government.
:03:41. > :03:44.Wiltshire town of Wootton Bassett will formally receive a royal title
:03:44. > :03:47.in a ceremony this morning. It's being recognised for its dedication
:03:47. > :03:53.to honouring Britain's war dead. Princess Anne will represent the
:03:53. > :03:59.Queen. Our correspondent Jon Kay, is there now. This is an important
:03:59. > :04:03.recognition for the town. How is it being received? With enormous pride
:04:03. > :04:08.today. The letters of patent signed by the Queen, which officially make
:04:08. > :04:13.it Royal Wootton Bassett, will be unveiled by the Princess Royal.
:04:13. > :04:18.That will be unveiled at lunch time. People started waiting here behind
:04:18. > :04:24.the barriers, queuing up for a place in the crowds. Look at them,
:04:24. > :04:28.that was 7am this morning. Many of them have union flags, with special
:04:28. > :04:32.new heraldic cests created for the town. They are waiting the length
:04:32. > :04:36.of the High Street there. It's a huge turn out. They've turned out
:04:36. > :04:39.so many times over the last few years for repatriations through the
:04:39. > :04:42.town. People say those fallen servicemen and women, those
:04:42. > :04:47.families are still very much in their minds today. They say this
:04:47. > :04:54.isn't a celebration, but they say, it is a chance to show some pride
:04:54. > :04:57.in themselves, as well, and finally a chance here to smile.
:04:57. > :05:00.New Zealand are through to the Rugby World Cup final. The
:05:00. > :05:05.tournament hosts beat Australia in this morning's semi-finals in
:05:05. > :05:08.Auckland. They won by 20-6, to set up a meeting with France, who beat
:05:08. > :05:12.Wales yesterday. Despite nearly always being the favourites, the
:05:12. > :05:16.All Blacks haven't won the World Cup since the very first tournament
:05:16. > :05:20.in 1987. That final, next Sunday. That's it for the moment. Back to
:05:20. > :05:23.you. In the beginning the story was a
:05:23. > :05:28.bit weird, a 33-year-old man travelling the world with the
:05:28. > :05:33.Defence Secretary and visiting Liam Fox regularly at the MoD. The
:05:33. > :05:38.special advisor who wasn't. Where it became more tricky for Liam Fox
:05:38. > :05:42.was when people started chasing the money. That led to strange and
:05:42. > :05:48.exotic locations. Phil Collins, in a sentence, could you say why Liam
:05:48. > :05:52.Fox has resigned? He's resigned because of the money. It was weird
:05:52. > :05:57.and peculiar up until the point where the Times story about the
:05:57. > :06:01.money landed. At that point, if you find 10p of a money trail, Liam Fox
:06:02. > :06:05.is in big trouble. What we've got now is we still don't understand it
:06:05. > :06:10.by any means. There's all sorts of money flying around and peculiar
:06:10. > :06:13.influences and all sorts of people involved, but to have someone with
:06:13. > :06:17.defence interests, who appears to be paid by someone other than the
:06:17. > :06:22.taxpayer, offering advice to a minister, as for as we know, it
:06:22. > :06:26.goes over the line in impropriety. Is this washing over the public's
:06:26. > :06:32.head a bit? I think it sort of is because the financial situation is
:06:32. > :06:36.so bad. But I think people are aware, there is this charmed circle
:06:36. > :06:40.up there somewhere, where this man could travel round with the Defence
:06:40. > :06:45.Secretary and nobody put their hand up and said, "Isn't this weird?
:06:45. > :06:49.Isn't this strange?" This morning there are stories of having drinks
:06:49. > :06:52.and costing �28 each in Dubai. When you have a nation worried about
:06:52. > :06:59.spending money on yoghurt at the supermarket, which is where we are
:06:59. > :07:03.now, they do think "do we care? "do we want another report to cost us a
:07:03. > :07:07.lot of money. How damaging has it been for David Cameron? It's really
:07:07. > :07:10.interesting for Cameron. It tells you something about the pace of
:07:10. > :07:13.modern politics. The Alastair Campbell rule has been cited a lot.
:07:13. > :07:18.If something goes for ten days you're in trouble. David Cameron
:07:18. > :07:21.has just sat back and allowed it to unfold. You might say that's very
:07:21. > :07:25.calm, athoritative leadership. The Labour Party has been onto him
:07:25. > :07:28.saying no it's slow, you have to get onto it. He's come out of it
:07:29. > :07:32.rather well. Liam Fox has gone, which is the right decision. But he
:07:32. > :07:36.hasn't sacked him. Fox resigned himself. The right of the party
:07:36. > :07:40.cannot have any recriminations because Cameron has allowed Fox to
:07:40. > :07:46.take his time. He hasn't sacked him. He's given him every chance to
:07:46. > :07:49.prove that the relationship isn't a wrong one, which he's been labelled
:07:49. > :07:56.to do. So not particularly damaging. I think it damaged Blair when he
:07:57. > :08:02.cast people out so quickly, partly because of Alastair. He looks like
:08:02. > :08:06.a nice guy. That's a perfect cue. We can speak to the Shadow Defence
:08:06. > :08:10.Secretary, Jim Murphy, who joins us now from Glasgow. Very good
:08:10. > :08:15.afternoon to you, good morning, sorry. We're on earlier today.
:08:15. > :08:19.Thank you very much - We're still in the morning here in Scotland.
:08:19. > :08:24.Picking up on that, what they were saying, that David Cameron has
:08:24. > :08:27.played this absolutely right. not sure that's correct. David
:08:27. > :08:32.Cameron had Liam Fox into the office at Number Ten I think early
:08:32. > :08:36.in the week. We need to know what that conversation was. Did Liam Fox
:08:36. > :08:42.tell David Cameron the full truth? Or did he hide some of the truth?
:08:43. > :08:47.He told him the full truth about money, influence and the breaching
:08:47. > :08:51.of the ministerial code, then David Cameron should have acted. That's
:08:51. > :08:54.what the inquiry's about. inquiry is about Liam Fox and Adam
:08:54. > :08:59.Werritty an the points of the code. It's clear there are wider issues
:08:59. > :09:02.at stake, access to money, access to influence, money off the books,
:09:02. > :09:08.money undeclared, influence. We need to follow the money trail and
:09:08. > :09:11.see where it leads us. What are you proposing? I think that once Sir
:09:11. > :09:15.Gus O'Donnell has concluded his work, there's a case for a wider
:09:15. > :09:21.inquiry. Let's look at the issue of the Atlantic bridge. A charity
:09:21. > :09:26.which has been wound up. Liam Fox was a patron of. Four other Cabinet
:09:26. > :09:28.ministers were on the advisory Council of the flick Bridge. That's
:09:28. > :09:33.an organisation we know little about, yet five Cabinet ministers
:09:33. > :09:36.were involved in it. It seems, in its politics, it seems to be a
:09:36. > :09:42.second cousin to the American Tea Party. Aren't you just asking for a
:09:42. > :09:45.wider inquiry because it keeps bad headlines at the forefront for the
:09:45. > :09:50.Conservative Party and isn't this what induces cynicism about British
:09:50. > :09:53.politics? There is a lot of cynicism about British politics,
:09:53. > :09:59.particularly about money. It's not the existence of money that cupts
:09:59. > :10:03.politics. It's the hiding of the money, the secret slush funds and
:10:03. > :10:08.money off the books. We have no evidence that Atlantic Bridge has
:10:08. > :10:12.done anything wrong, and yet you're suggesting by implying there needs
:10:12. > :10:18.to be a wider -- inquiry there's something murky going on. Atlantic
:10:18. > :10:23.bridge itself was closed down not by the Cabinet ministers involved
:10:23. > :10:27.but by those who receive the rules on charity. I've said throughout I
:10:27. > :10:30.would rather discuss the Government's defence policy than
:10:30. > :10:33.the Defence Minister or former Defence Minister. But this is a
:10:33. > :10:36.self-inflicted crisis. Liam Fox brought it upon himself. David
:10:36. > :10:39.Cameron act quickly enough and the investigation is too narrow. We
:10:39. > :10:44.still don't even know the terms of reference of Sir Gus O'Donnell's
:10:44. > :10:48.inquiry. But you say last week that the Government has shown how out of
:10:48. > :10:52.touch it is by spending the last week worrying about how to save
:10:52. > :10:56.Liam Fox's job. The Prime Minister has set up an inquiry, which you
:10:56. > :10:59.called for. He's giving it time. Marked contrast to the way things
:10:59. > :11:02.were happening as we were just hearing there, you know, under the
:11:02. > :11:05.Tony Blair regime, where you had two days of bad headlines and
:11:06. > :11:10.people were kind of taken out and shot and then to Tony Blair's
:11:10. > :11:16.regret afterwards. I don't think that's a fair comparison. The fact
:11:16. > :11:20.is - Why not? Why is it unfair? This saga has draggened ond --
:11:20. > :11:24.dragged on and on. The initial inquiry that Sir Gus O'Donnell will
:11:24. > :11:29.carry out professionally is a narrow one. You believe in summary
:11:30. > :11:35.justice? There are issues much wider than that now about who else
:11:35. > :11:40.knew what was going on. No-one really has any sense really that
:11:40. > :11:44.no-one had any idea what Liam Fox and Mr Werritty were up to on a
:11:44. > :11:47.professional basis. Five Cabinet ministers on that Atlantic Bridge
:11:47. > :11:50.organisation, is Liam Fox the only one who knew what was going on and
:11:50. > :11:54.the purpose of that money and what it was used for? I don't think
:11:54. > :11:58.anyone believes that. In terms of summary justice, I was criticised
:11:58. > :12:01.during the week for not demanding Liam Fox's head on a plate. He saw
:12:01. > :12:07.the facts. He knew the facts and decided he had to go. Was your
:12:07. > :12:11.attack bluntsed because, I no it's all declared in the register of
:12:11. > :12:14.members interest, you took money from Cellcrypt to play for a trip
:12:14. > :12:17.to Washington. What is the Shadow Defence Secretary taking money to
:12:17. > :12:22.go to America from a commercial organisation? I personally didn't
:12:22. > :12:25.take any money, the Shadow defence team as part of our policy review,
:12:25. > :12:29.we travelled to the United States to meet senior American politicians
:12:29. > :12:32.on the left and right of American politics and many others. That trip
:12:32. > :12:37.was sponsored by a variety of people, including one of these
:12:37. > :12:40.companies. It's publicly declared F Liam Fox had been open and
:12:40. > :12:44.transparent in the way we have been, perhaps he wouldn't have been in so
:12:44. > :12:48.much trouble after all. Don't the public see whether it's declared or
:12:48. > :12:51.undeclared, you taking money and thinking "What on earth are defence
:12:52. > :12:55.contractors doing paying for the Shadow defence team to go off to
:12:55. > :12:59.America?" I think in Opposition you don't have access to that vast
:12:59. > :13:06.source of public money to carry out your work. As I said earlier, it's
:13:06. > :13:10.not the existence of money in politics that corrupts it. It's
:13:10. > :13:15.money off the books, it's pretending and hiding the facts. We
:13:15. > :13:19.did an entirely proper way, that's the right thing to do. There we
:13:19. > :13:22.must leave it. Jim Murphy thank you. Liam Fox's resignation rounds off a
:13:22. > :13:26.tough couple of weeks for the Conservatives, with the party
:13:26. > :13:29.lurching from one PR disaster to another. Tory spin doctors must be
:13:29. > :13:33.wondering "Where is it going to end?"
:13:33. > :13:37.A fortnight ago Britain was Basqueing in an Indian summer and
:13:37. > :13:40.the Tories were gathering for the annual conference in Manchester, in
:13:40. > :13:45.confident mood. But the 14 days since have been among David
:13:45. > :13:48.Cameron's worst, since moving into Downing Street. First, the Home
:13:48. > :13:54.Secretary Theresa May's conference speech on the Human Rights Act
:13:54. > :14:00.sparked an almighty row. May's Cabinet colleague Ken Clarke
:14:00. > :14:04.ridiculed her claim about a cat as "nonsense". Then David Cameron had
:14:04. > :14:08.to rewrite his own speech, after the original draft suggested that
:14:08. > :14:13.people should pay off their credit card debts, not a message designed
:14:13. > :14:17.to boost economic growth. Another Cabinet minister, Oliver
:14:17. > :14:23.Letwin had to apologise after being caught disposing of constituents
:14:24. > :14:28.letters in a park bin. I do apologise because I do understand
:14:28. > :14:34.that constituents may feel that I shouldn't have allowed their papers
:14:34. > :14:37.to be in that bin. Worst of all was the Liam Fox affair. The Defence
:14:37. > :14:43.Secretary ordered an investigation after questions were raised about
:14:43. > :14:47.his relationship with Adam Werritty. Then, on Monday, he appeared before
:14:47. > :14:51.MPs to apologise. I accept that it was a mistake to allow distinctions
:14:51. > :14:55.to be blurred between my professional responsibilities and
:14:55. > :14:59.my personal loyalties to a friend and Mr Speaker, I am sorry for this.
:14:59. > :15:08.I have apologised to the Prime Minister, to the public and at the
:15:08. > :15:13.first opportunity available, to the He is the first Conservative
:15:13. > :15:19.minister to leave the Cabinet. The easy days of summer are a distant
:15:19. > :15:23.memory. With us in the studio is the housing minister, Grant Shapps.
:15:23. > :15:28.It has been a torrid couple of weeks. Have you become accident-
:15:28. > :15:34.prone as a government? I do not think so. Government is not always
:15:34. > :15:39.plain sailing. Clearly things happen that are often outside your
:15:39. > :15:42.immediate control. You have to respond to them. These things come
:15:42. > :15:48.and go and I suspect by the next election we will not be speaking
:15:48. > :15:53.about them. But it is showing something about the Government not
:15:53. > :16:00.having a very sure touch. This thing with Liam Fox and the Oliver
:16:00. > :16:05.Letwin thing as well, extraordinary. At conference, one weekend a half
:16:05. > :16:10.ago, we were not speaking about it. You cannot plan every single
:16:10. > :16:14.activity in government. If we did, you would say that we were media
:16:14. > :16:17.managing government in the same way that Tony Blair used to be. Could
:16:18. > :16:23.you have done with more media management over the past couple of
:16:23. > :16:28.weeks? I think the Liam Fox situation has been quite
:16:29. > :16:35.interesting. Newspapers have tried, or have run stories every single
:16:35. > :16:39.day. A process was put in place by the Prime Minister, quite correctly,
:16:40. > :16:45.and he said, let's let Gus O'Donnell, the Cabinet Secretary,
:16:45. > :16:50.carry this out. We will make a decision from there. Liam Fox said
:16:50. > :16:55.he recognised the lines were blurred and he decided to leave. It
:16:55. > :17:00.has been a straightforward process, there has been movement and I think
:17:00. > :17:03.that Philip Hammond will do a great job in defence. I wonder if the
:17:03. > :17:08.accident-prone nature of this is perhaps damaging to the
:17:08. > :17:14.Conservative brand? It seems to have reinforced two stereotypes.
:17:14. > :17:20.Oliver Letwin, the amiable toff who goes around absent-mindedly
:17:20. > :17:25.discarding constituents' letters in a rubbish bin in St James's Park.
:17:25. > :17:32.Then you have Liam Fox, consorting with strange billionaires,
:17:32. > :17:36.soliciting funds. I do not agree at all. If you look at the really big
:17:36. > :17:41.things that are going on, and this week there have been far bigger
:17:41. > :17:46.issues to do with the Eurozone, the dangers there, and the fact that
:17:46. > :17:51.the Chancellor has been meeting with the European Finance Minister.
:17:51. > :17:57.Even in defence, and I notice that Jim Murphy is keen to speak about
:17:57. > :18:00.that, you have got to remember there was a �38 billion black hole
:18:00. > :18:06.in defence spending going forward. Those are the things that Liam Fox
:18:06. > :18:11.was sorting out. How will people feel when the read about what Liam
:18:11. > :18:17.Fox was doing? Can you explain it? Liam Fox is said that he allowed
:18:17. > :18:23.the lines to blah. The fact that he wrote to the Prime Minister and
:18:23. > :18:27.resigned, he accepted that it did not look can feel right. We will
:18:27. > :18:32.have the Cabinet Secretary's report earlier this week. That is true,
:18:32. > :18:38.but it does not change the reality of day today, there is a lot of
:18:38. > :18:42.work which goes on that will not stop. Take me through what it is
:18:42. > :18:48.like being a minister? Can you understand how it was possible that
:18:48. > :18:53.he had his seemingly separate private office? It is important for
:18:53. > :18:59.ministers to try in separate parts of their life, but it is not always
:18:59. > :19:04.easy to do. You have very restricted time. The temptation to
:19:04. > :19:10.say, I have a busy day, but I would like to see my family, they will
:19:10. > :19:13.see me at lunch time if they happen to be around, that sort of thing,
:19:13. > :19:19.weight is the cut-off point? I suspect things became blurred in
:19:19. > :19:27.this case. Do you think it would be possible in your department to have
:19:27. > :19:31.an operation running like Liam Fox's? This can be over exaggerated.
:19:31. > :19:34.Today there is an extraordinary story saying that there was an
:19:34. > :19:41.alternative foreign policy brief going on with the self-styled
:19:41. > :19:45.adviser. This is silly. There is a Foreign Office with 160 diplomats
:19:45. > :19:49.and the Foreign Secretary. There is no way that one individual could
:19:49. > :19:55.have that great an influence, no matter how good friends they are
:19:55. > :20:03.what one minister. He was clearly operating a separate office, that
:20:03. > :20:06.is what was going on. He was on the same page as Liam Fox. Is that
:20:06. > :20:12.acceptable when you have got an independent civil service there to
:20:12. > :20:17.offer advice? We have seen a variety of different stories in the
:20:17. > :20:22.newspapers, so you cannot say clearly. THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE We
:20:22. > :20:29.understand enough of what has gone on to make a pretty clear a guest
:20:29. > :20:33.of what has gone on. Liam Fox is said that the lines got
:20:33. > :20:39.blurred and he stepped down. He has not said there was an alternative
:20:39. > :20:42.foreign policy our defence policy. I was interested in Jim Murphy's
:20:43. > :20:48.comments that in opposition he needed to formulate any defence
:20:48. > :20:54.policy. He went off to the States and it was paid for by one of these
:20:54. > :20:58.private companies. This Atlantic Bridge thing was in opposition. Jim
:20:58. > :21:03.Murphy made it sound like it happened in the last week. It did
:21:03. > :21:08.not. The idea that there is a separate policy running is probably
:21:08. > :21:13.untrue. We should not judge it on the basis of newspaper headlines,
:21:13. > :21:20.but through the Cabinet Office report. Do you think you officials
:21:20. > :21:24.would have known? I think it is a strong case and that the Cabinet
:21:24. > :21:30.Secretary will want to do this, say, what was the private office saying
:21:30. > :21:35.at the time? I am sure he will look into that. Could you imagine having
:21:35. > :21:39.something like that with your private affairs? Everyone's
:21:39. > :21:44.relationship with their own private officers, the people who look after
:21:44. > :21:50.your interests in Parliament, the relationship is a very one to one
:21:50. > :21:54.thing. Everyone's relationship is slightly different. I can imagine
:21:54. > :21:59.my private office having a range of conversations with me about all
:21:59. > :22:06.sorts of topics. We have heard David Cameron saying that you need
:22:06. > :22:10.to set up a register of lobbyists? Should that happen more quickly?
:22:10. > :22:14.11,000 people were registered for the Tory party conference, but only
:22:14. > :22:19.4,000 were Tory delegates? Ministers have a great
:22:19. > :22:25.responsibility. When I get a letter from a lobbyist on behalf of a firm,
:22:25. > :22:30.I ask why the company is not contacting me directly. With in any
:22:30. > :22:35.sector, ministers are there to be contacted if you want to get a
:22:35. > :22:40.point across. Do not use lobbyists, do it yourself. Do you think you
:22:40. > :22:46.need to bring forward the time when you introduce this register?
:22:46. > :22:52.need complete transparency. As soon as you have transparency, it all
:22:52. > :22:56.becomes much clearer. And in light of all this, the sooner the better?
:22:56. > :23:03.My view is that the path towards complete transparency is
:23:03. > :23:07.unstoppable. It is happening anyway. Before next May? In the Prime
:23:07. > :23:12.Minister will look at what Sir Gus O'Donnell says and makes his
:23:12. > :23:15.decision based on that. Would you like this to happen sooner? I think
:23:15. > :23:22.that everything you do in government, you should be
:23:22. > :23:25.transparent. I do not think that using lobbyists is a good way for
:23:25. > :23:35.organisations to lobby government. They should be done as soon as
:23:35. > :23:40.possible. Surely someone would have liked Adam Werritty's constant
:23:40. > :23:47.attendance is faster. I do not understand why the private office
:23:47. > :23:54.did not say. Why did they not say, we are worried about this, what is
:23:54. > :23:58.going on? There is a feeling that everything is not joined up. We do
:23:58. > :24:03.not know what was said and what wasn't said which is why the
:24:03. > :24:07.Cabinet Secretary is looking into it. We need to wait until after
:24:07. > :24:14.that report is produced. We cannot let Liam Fox get away with the idea
:24:14. > :24:18.that he was not cultivating links with other regimes. He clearly was.
:24:18. > :24:22.The people he worktop -- BP plus he was talking to in the Sri Lankan
:24:23. > :24:27.regime were quite a aid of the mainstream foreign policy. He was
:24:27. > :24:35.stupid and unrealistic as well as wrong. Some of the other things
:24:35. > :24:40.were ridiculous. The idea that he was fostering relationships with
:24:40. > :24:44.Republicans in the US, Atlantic Bridge stuff, you would expect him
:24:44. > :24:53.to have good relationships with people in the US. What do you make
:24:53. > :24:57.of that? Referring back to the earlier... THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE
:24:57. > :25:01.All the politicians want to stop newspapers.
:25:01. > :25:07.After one week of newspapers doing the dirty work if everyone, they
:25:07. > :25:10.are very important. Of course, but let me caution in this way, we do
:25:10. > :25:16.not want the newspapers making decisions about what actually did
:25:16. > :25:21.happen. They can make accusations, but the stories in newspapers this
:25:21. > :25:25.morning in my policy area, absolutely wrong end completely
:25:25. > :25:28.incorrect. If I only took a conclusion based on newspapers you
:25:28. > :25:34.would always come to do wrong conclusion which is why any the
:25:34. > :25:38.cabinet secretary. Later in the programme, what made Europe and our
:25:38. > :25:45.relationship with it look like once the dust settles on the Eurozone
:25:45. > :25:49.crisis? Nigel Farage and one of Dr Fox's Euro-sceptic friends on the
:25:49. > :25:54.Tory backbenches will join us then. First of all, The Politics Show
:25:54. > :25:59.where you are. Good morning. This week, later on,
:25:59. > :26:04.we are looking at the phenomenon of copper been stolen in and around
:26:04. > :26:09.the capital. Is tighter regulation of scrap metal dealers on the
:26:09. > :26:14.cards? First, the level of knife crime in London is heading in the
:26:14. > :26:18.wrong direction. The latest figures show that in the four months to
:26:18. > :26:24.August this year, the number of incidents was up 17 % on the same
:26:24. > :26:29.period last year. How mum -- how much of this is happening in
:26:29. > :26:35.London's schools, not much, probably, but it is difficult to
:26:35. > :26:40.tell? Carrying a knife on our streets is inexcusable in a
:26:40. > :26:45.civilised society. We're proposing that anyone convicted of knife
:26:45. > :26:50.crime should expect to go to jail. Strong words from the Prime
:26:50. > :26:54.Minister in 2008, but three years later, the tragic consequences of
:26:54. > :26:59.young people carrying knives can be seen clearly.
:26:59. > :27:06.A teenager has been repeatedly stabbed... At 15-year-old boy
:27:06. > :27:12.stabbed to death... The Politics Show asked all 33
:27:12. > :27:17.London boroughs how many weapons had been seized in their schools.
:27:17. > :27:21.Only three could give us any information for the past five years,
:27:21. > :27:31.including Richmond, who have had 59 weapons seized in their schools
:27:31. > :27:34.
:27:34. > :27:39.There were a total of 470 exclusions for incidents involving
:27:39. > :27:45.weapons in the last five years. The Department of Education told us
:27:45. > :27:54.this... Schools are under no obligation to provide figures for
:27:54. > :27:58.the number of weapons confiscations. We need a combination of things. I
:27:58. > :28:02.think that laws need to be more stringent for crimes were knives
:28:02. > :28:08.have been used. When someone is caught using a knife or a gun, the
:28:08. > :28:11.punishment needs to be severe and swift. The question remains, if the
:28:11. > :28:16.government or local authorities do not have any figures relating to
:28:16. > :28:21.weapons in schools, how can they formulate an effective policy to
:28:21. > :28:26.tackle the problem? Joining used to raise appears, the
:28:26. > :28:31.Labour MP for Erith and Thamesmead, and Danny Kruger, chief executive
:28:31. > :28:34.of a charity which works with sex offenders.
:28:34. > :28:39.Are you surprised, do you think that schools should be collecting
:28:39. > :28:44.data, for weapons discovered on their premises, and giving it to
:28:44. > :28:49.local authorities? I think they should be doing that, because the
:28:49. > :28:53.first step to finding a solution is accepting there is a problem. Until
:28:53. > :28:59.you know the size of the problem you cannot take steps to make the
:28:59. > :29:03.problem go away. It is really important to have information. My
:29:03. > :29:07.constituency is Bexley council which is one of the safest boroughs
:29:07. > :29:11.in London according to statistics, yet a young boy was murdered there
:29:11. > :29:16.on his way home from school a couple of months ago. For that
:29:16. > :29:20.family it does not matter it is the safest bar. Do you know how many
:29:20. > :29:26.weapons or do you hear of many instances of weapons being found on
:29:26. > :29:33.school premises? No, that information is not readily
:29:33. > :29:38.available. They recently put metal arches up in the Broadway, the
:29:38. > :29:42.congregation point for secondary schools in Bexley. It can be quite
:29:42. > :29:46.lively there when you have three or four schools all coming out at the
:29:46. > :29:52.same time. They have tried staggering the timetable, but they
:29:52. > :29:57.now have metal arches. But they have not found any knives on
:29:57. > :30:01.anybody. But not from the most recent figures I have seen. It was
:30:01. > :30:06.a Labour strategy, to give schools more power to search pupils when
:30:06. > :30:16.they were coming into school? They introduced that and some schools
:30:16. > :30:17.
:30:17. > :30:21.did introduce knife Archie's? Do I think schools should do it if
:30:21. > :30:24.they want to. If a young person can't feel safe in school, that's a
:30:24. > :30:29.terrible failure on the part of the system, which is looking after them
:30:29. > :30:32.for the hours that they're there. Actually, most crime happens
:30:32. > :30:36.outside school. Most violent crime certainly happens outside school.
:30:36. > :30:40.While I think it's right for schools to prevent children
:30:40. > :30:44.carrying weapons, all that happens when you do that and the reason
:30:44. > :30:49.there probably aren't knives going into those schools is the young
:30:49. > :30:55.people who otherwise would would carry them is hiding them. They did
:30:55. > :30:59.a sweep in Camden, the local area, the parbgdz, and they found dozens
:30:59. > :31:03.of weapons hidden in bushes because, not because of schools, but because
:31:03. > :31:09.the police recommend powered to stop and search anybody who might
:31:09. > :31:13.be carrying a weapon. Clamping down on carrying a knife is important,
:31:13. > :31:18.and I'm all for it. But we must find out why they feel they need to
:31:18. > :31:22.in the first place. I know head teachers resent the implication or
:31:22. > :31:27.suggestion that there are weapons or knives in schools. Is it
:31:27. > :31:30.exaggerated? Is it the case that most pupils know that it would be a
:31:30. > :31:34.stupid thing to take it into, but they keep them close by? I think
:31:34. > :31:37.that happens. I think quite a lot of teachers are in denial about the
:31:37. > :31:40.extent of crime among students. They might behave well in school.
:31:41. > :31:46.Thank God for that. A lot of teachers are trying to preserve the
:31:46. > :31:49.reputation of their school and denying the existence of real
:31:49. > :31:52.serious gang involvement, drug dealing going on by the students on
:31:52. > :31:59.the streets. Would you want to see, what are you saying, that young
:31:59. > :32:04.people need to know if caught with a weapon what should happen
:32:04. > :32:08.automatically? I'm all for mandatory sentences and tough
:32:08. > :32:11.across-the-board rules clamp down on carrying knives. Fine with us
:32:11. > :32:15.being tougher than we are about carrying knives. We must not think
:32:15. > :32:18.we can arrest our way out of the problem of serious youth violence.
:32:18. > :32:22.Yes, young people need clear signals. If all we do is lock them
:32:22. > :32:27.up, all we're doing is turning a generation into criminals. We can't
:32:27. > :32:33.do that. That was the message from your leader of course. Two things
:32:33. > :32:36.have to be said at once, and it's difficult because there's only room
:32:36. > :32:39.for one headline. Can you say both things. The first thing you have to
:32:39. > :32:43.say if you're in charge of the Government and a public figure is
:32:43. > :32:46.to say we're going to clamp down on violence. After the riots, this is
:32:46. > :32:49.criminal behaviour, we have to stop it. There has to be the second half
:32:49. > :32:54.of the message that these people need help as well. And we can't
:32:54. > :32:58.arrest our way out of the crime problems. Where do you stand, David
:32:58. > :33:02.Cameron indicated or said that there -- he wanted to see this
:33:02. > :33:05.offence aggravated knife carrying and said before the election there
:33:05. > :33:09.should be a mandatory prison sentence if found in possession of
:33:09. > :33:13.it. Some MPs, including Enfield Conservative MP, want to see that
:33:13. > :33:16.extended to 15 to 18-year-olds. If you were found with a knife it's
:33:16. > :33:21.mandatory that you receive a custodial sentence, what do you say
:33:21. > :33:25.to that? I think when both David Cameron and Boris Johnson made that
:33:25. > :33:28.pledge I was angry because I thought this is just political
:33:28. > :33:33.posturing. They're talking to an audience who want to hear that. But
:33:33. > :33:37.it's not that simple. It's, what I want is, as it currently stands now,
:33:37. > :33:41.if you commit an offence with a knife, you get a longer sentence.
:33:41. > :33:45.But I don't want people carrying them in the first place. It's to go
:33:45. > :33:48.back to the longer term and do exactly what's been said here. You
:33:48. > :33:53.need to look at what are the problems that cause these children
:33:53. > :33:56.to be stabbing other children. I've spoke ton lots of secondary school
:33:56. > :33:59.children who come into school on educational visits, the boys in
:33:59. > :34:02.particular, when you say "What's the thing you like least about
:34:02. > :34:05.school?" They don't say the home work, uniform or the teachers, they
:34:05. > :34:10.say getting to and from school. They fear that. Because they don't
:34:10. > :34:15.know who has a knife. It certainly looks, Danny Kruger, that David
:34:15. > :34:21.Cameron has resisted. He doesn't want to give Nick de Bois and David
:34:21. > :34:25.Burrowes their way on that. He doesn't want to commit himself to
:34:25. > :34:31.jailing everyone. So do you think he understands the messages or the
:34:31. > :34:36.important thing here is to deal with the underlying, trying to stop
:34:36. > :34:41.them carrying in the first place? It's inindividualious to
:34:41. > :34:45.distinguish between a clear deterrent about carrying a knife
:34:45. > :34:49.and addressing that. My feeling about the carrying is that the
:34:49. > :34:52.mandatory sentences, I think 15 is probably too young. You have a lot
:34:52. > :34:55.of silly kids who think they need to carry knives because others are
:34:55. > :34:59.carrying them. They don't need to and they're not going to use them.
:34:59. > :35:04.However, a clear signal about this is a very serious offence,
:35:04. > :35:08.certainly anyone threatening or using a knife in an intimidating
:35:08. > :35:11.manner needs to be punished. There shouldn't be this mandatory effect
:35:11. > :35:16.then because someone may well be, they're possessing that knife and
:35:16. > :35:19.in possession of that knife because of fear, for defensive purposes.
:35:19. > :35:23.It's counterproductive to think about putting them... I don't want
:35:24. > :35:27.15-year-olds in a detention centre because they have a knife on them
:35:27. > :35:29.because they're terrified of the bus journey. We have to solve the
:35:29. > :35:33.problem of that 15-year-old being terrified in the first place. It's
:35:33. > :35:39.a much bigger problem. There's no quick fix. It will take a long time.
:35:39. > :35:44.Thanks very much for coming in. Now, it's the new gold, copper, and
:35:44. > :35:48.it's rapidly rising -- its rising value is making it attractive to
:35:48. > :35:53.criminals. The railways are particularly vulnerable. Most of it
:35:53. > :35:57.is flogged to dodgy scrap metal dealers, there needs to be tougher
:35:57. > :36:01.regulation of the said trade. Is that feasible?
:36:01. > :36:06.The price of copper has increased five fold in the last decade and
:36:06. > :36:09.this is the result. Thieves stealing cable from railway tracks.
:36:09. > :36:14.Incidents like this are increasingly common in London and
:36:14. > :36:18.can cause hours of delay and commuter misery. The Politics Show
:36:18. > :36:22.has learned that it's not just the railways. Public services all over
:36:22. > :36:26.are affected. Air traffic control at Stansted were hit and two
:36:26. > :36:31.hospitals St George's and St Thomass. Entire bus stops have been
:36:31. > :36:36.taken and even police communication system have been affected. These
:36:36. > :36:40.incidents can impact things like the police radio. There are fall-
:36:40. > :36:44.back FA sits. We can bring those into -- facilities. We can bring
:36:44. > :36:49.those into operation. Once the fall-back facilities are in place,
:36:49. > :36:55.you think, what's the fall back to the fall back? How easy is it to
:36:55. > :36:59.sell? We decided to find out. With the help of British Telecom we set
:36:59. > :37:04.out with telecommunications cables. This is the older type cable. Our
:37:04. > :37:07.colour codes are unique to us. Thieves are so good at stealing
:37:07. > :37:13.this cable, we've heard a story about people in uniforms having the
:37:13. > :37:18.road dug up, taking it out of the ground. It was only when a proper
:37:18. > :37:22.BT engineer drove past and realised that no-one should be digging up
:37:22. > :37:27.the road that they clocked no-one should -- that they were nicking it.
:37:27. > :37:31.Much of it is clearly marked, BT only dispose of cables through an
:37:31. > :37:34.authorised supplier and not just a random bloke with a bag full of
:37:35. > :37:38.wire. The bloke in question is Howard. He's a member of the
:37:38. > :37:43.Politics Show team who is going to see if he can get anyone to agree
:37:43. > :37:47.to buy it. I wanted to sell some copper cable. Would you be
:37:48. > :37:52.interested at all? The first attempt was unsuccessful. I'm back,
:37:52. > :37:56.and the guy clearly said that he couldn't accept the copper piping.
:37:56. > :38:00.It clearly had BT labelled on it. The second dealer said the first at
:38:00. > :38:05.first, but changed his tune when Howard rang back. If I strip it
:38:05. > :38:15.down and bring it back, would I be able to sell it to you. Give me a
:38:15. > :38:16.
:38:16. > :38:24.sec, mate. Is this (BLEEP)? I just got given your number from a guy
:38:24. > :38:29.(BLEEP), I was speaking to him. He passed on your number. He looked it
:38:29. > :38:33.over and he said it was fine. He realise today was not legit. He
:38:33. > :38:38.asked me where I got it from. He said it was important to know where
:38:38. > :38:44.I got it from so he wouldn't sell it in the same area. He said he
:38:44. > :38:49.would give me �800 Perton. So it would be �400 for the half ton and
:38:49. > :38:54.give him a call back and it was a done deal. Senior police want to
:38:54. > :38:57.see tougher regulation and powers to close dodgy dealers. We visit
:38:57. > :39:00.scrap metal dealers day after day. Some are clearly operating outside
:39:00. > :39:05.the law. They're not registered with the local authority as they
:39:05. > :39:08.should be. We would like to be able to close them down and ask them to
:39:08. > :39:11.apply it a magistrate or something like that to give them the
:39:11. > :39:16.authority to trade. The Government say they're looking at whether they
:39:16. > :39:21.need to tighten the law, but as yet, have made no promises about what
:39:21. > :39:26.they might do. Joining me Dyan Crowther, director
:39:26. > :39:31.of operational services from network rail and Ian Hetherington
:39:31. > :39:35.director of the British Metals Recycling. What do you want to see
:39:35. > :39:40.happen, more licensing, regulation, how would it work? First, it's a
:39:40. > :39:44.big problem. It affects thousands of passengers on a weekly, daily,
:39:44. > :39:48.monthly basis. It's a growing problem. We want to make life
:39:49. > :39:53.tougher for the thieves and to get the illegal scrap dealers, the
:39:53. > :39:56.rogue dealers, put out of business. We need to remember there's a lot
:39:56. > :40:01.of honest scrap dealers out there. What we don't want is regulation
:40:01. > :40:05.that affects their business std. We need to focus on the illegal ones
:40:05. > :40:10.and not make it tougher for the people who want to earn an honest
:40:10. > :40:12.living. Before we start debating that, you said it is a growing
:40:12. > :40:15.problem, suddenly, perhaps it's just that we've started to read
:40:15. > :40:20.about it a lot, but it seems to be happening an awful lot now,
:40:20. > :40:26.suddenly, is that true? It's suddenly hit London. So clearly
:40:26. > :40:30.when it hits London it becomes bigger news. It's been a phenomena
:40:30. > :40:34.across the rail network and in other industries for the last five,
:40:34. > :40:38.six years. We have a of experience in terms of responding to it. We've
:40:38. > :40:42.done a lot of initiatives. We've put a lot of investment, time and
:40:42. > :40:47.resource, but it's not had the impact that we've wanted. It's not
:40:47. > :40:50.going away. We need some help. want more licensing and more
:40:50. > :40:54.regulation. We've heard Dyan say doesn't want to tarnish the
:40:54. > :40:58.reputation of the good dealers but need to identify the bad ones.
:40:58. > :41:02.Would you accept that the industry needs greater regulation? I accept
:41:02. > :41:09.that it needs to be reformed, the existing regulations are outmoded
:41:09. > :41:14.and out of date. The trouble with regulation is that if we don't have
:41:14. > :41:19.effective enforcement of existing regulation, then, frankly, the
:41:19. > :41:23.enforcement of new regulation, new law will be no better. Is the
:41:23. > :41:27.present liepsepbsing system good enough? What changes do you want to
:41:27. > :41:33.see? The current licensing system isn't good enough. We can see that
:41:33. > :41:39.in terms of the increase of the number of cable thefts is ais cot
:41:39. > :41:43.network. Why isn't it good enough? Because it's not obligatory for you
:41:43. > :41:48.to be licensed or there aren't enough people working for local
:41:48. > :41:53.authorities or the police checking for legitimate dealers, what's
:41:53. > :41:57.wrong there? Resources is clearly an issue. Certainly, it's also
:41:57. > :42:01.around the sentence inside of things. We've worked very hard with
:42:01. > :42:04.Magistrates' Courts around the country to make sure that
:42:04. > :42:08.Magistrates' Courts understand it's not just about cable theft, it's
:42:08. > :42:12.about the chaos that this actually occurs. And not just on the rail
:42:12. > :42:17.network but the impact on the economy. In effect, you think it
:42:17. > :42:22.might be outmoded, but the powers are there, people aren't doing.
:42:22. > :42:26.Correct. We would join Network Rail in asking for tougher sentencing,
:42:26. > :42:33.without doubt. Yes, we want existing regulations enforced. We
:42:33. > :42:37.want to see illegal traders closed down. We want to see those that are
:42:37. > :42:40.unregulated and where the existing regulation isn't being enforced
:42:41. > :42:45.closed down. They provide unfair competition and they provide an
:42:45. > :42:49.outlet for stolen materials, such as the cables stolen from Network
:42:49. > :42:52.Rail. You don't actually see change to the licensing, just people
:42:52. > :42:58.taking the existing set up more seriously. There needs to be a
:42:58. > :43:02.change to licensing and regulation, but ahead of that, we need to see
:43:02. > :43:07.the enforcement. Because our members are faced with losing
:43:07. > :43:12.substantial volumes of legitimate business by tougher rules, which
:43:12. > :43:15.they will inevitably abide by, without there being effective
:43:15. > :43:20.enforcement. What would you like police to be able to do now?
:43:20. > :43:24.like it see police able to go into scrap yards and have the power to
:43:24. > :43:28.close the scrapyard down. They don't necessarily have that at the
:43:28. > :43:31.moment. They do in some circumstances. Do they need prima-
:43:31. > :43:36.facie evidence of a crime? police have the power to enter any
:43:36. > :43:40.licenses scrap metal dealer. They don't have the power to enter an
:43:40. > :43:44.unlicensed scrap metal dealer, which is a nonsense. We would agree
:43:44. > :43:49.totally. They need the powers to enter any of these and yes, if
:43:49. > :43:58.they're in breach of regulation, in breach of the law they should be
:43:58. > :44:01.closed down. One suction being made is that you should end -- cashless
:44:01. > :44:05.transactions, no end cash transabgsz, there should be a
:44:05. > :44:11.cheque. Do you agree? That's one of the options that we've looked at
:44:11. > :44:14.and put forward. Is that practical? We would ebb gauge krb engage with
:44:14. > :44:19.a discussion around cashless trading. Would your members agree
:44:19. > :44:22.to no cash, agree to bank transfers or whatever? Today they would lose
:44:22. > :44:26.probably 50% of their legitimate cash business. It is a very
:44:26. > :44:30.substantial amount of business. This is a �5 billion a year
:44:30. > :44:36.business. You wouldn't want to go for cashless transactions?
:44:36. > :44:40.industry will engage, if the enforcement precedes the regulation.
:44:40. > :44:44.Otherwise, then the business will drift out to the existing illegal
:44:44. > :44:47.operators, who will continue to trade in cash. Have you, are you
:44:47. > :44:51.making the case to Government and at what level and are there any
:44:51. > :44:55.signs that anyone's listening? we are making the case. But it's
:44:55. > :44:59.not just Network Rail making the case, because it's not just our
:44:59. > :45:05.industry affected. So we're working with other victims of cable theft
:45:05. > :45:10.to put a case to Government. signals coming from people? Yes,
:45:10. > :45:13.signals definitely. Railway signals. Very good! Yes, we are getting
:45:13. > :45:21.positive signals. We are getting some engagement. Clearly, it's a
:45:21. > :45:25.big area. There's a lot to take into consideration. But we are
:45:25. > :45:35.engaging. Do you feel you're getting any sense that there is
:45:35. > :45:41.
:45:41. > :45:51.We would anticipate moves on enforcement, before regulation.
:45:51. > :45:51.
:45:51. > :45:54.Welcome back. Maybe, just maybe, the Eurozone crisis is heading
:45:54. > :46:04.towards its endgame with next week's EU summit being trailed as a
:46:04. > :46:05.
:46:05. > :46:08.decisive moment. Another one! But how profound is the crisis and what
:46:08. > :46:13.will the repercussions be for the EU and our relationship with it? We
:46:13. > :46:16.sent Giles Dilnot to Brussels to find out.
:46:16. > :46:18.On a bright day in Brussels, the European Parliament opens the doors
:46:18. > :46:28.of its all-singing, all-dancing 21 million euro new visitor experience,
:46:28. > :46:31.
:46:31. > :46:37.explaining what the EU is about and what it's for.
:46:37. > :46:46.Amidst the appalling crisis that is engulfing the Eurozone, the message
:46:46. > :46:50.in Brussels seems to be, let them eat cake. This is a massive crisis
:46:50. > :46:57.on a scale that the European Union has not seen before just because
:46:57. > :47:02.there are hundreds of billions, if not trillions of Euros at stake.
:47:02. > :47:12.Potentially it is every bit as bad as the Post Lehman situation. But
:47:12. > :47:13.
:47:13. > :47:18.worse. It is the most serious crisis the EU has faced in its 50
:47:18. > :47:23.year history. It is possible that the euro will break-up and that the
:47:23. > :47:32.EU itself will not survive the break-up of the euro.
:47:32. > :47:36.generations to come, people will say, thank God, Britain did not
:47:36. > :47:40.join the euro. So now the narrative is not whether
:47:40. > :47:42.we join a currency, but how, amidst this crisis, the UK still gets the
:47:42. > :47:52.economic benefits of what remains a vast and valuable single European
:47:52. > :47:56.
:47:56. > :47:59.market without a Euro collapse handing us our own Greek tragedy.
:47:59. > :48:02.Here, the message is of an established union of 27 member
:48:02. > :48:04.states "united in diversity", but when the dust final settles on the
:48:04. > :48:13.current Eurozone crisis, might the Eurozone and indeed the EU itself
:48:13. > :48:17.look rather different? My own guess is that in the long run Greece may
:48:17. > :48:22.well prefer to leave the euro. There is a good chance that no one
:48:22. > :48:26.else will want or need to leave, but that requires two things to
:48:26. > :48:31.happen. Firstly the Germans and the other rich countries have to come
:48:31. > :48:35.up with lots of money for a bail out fund to convince the markets
:48:35. > :48:41.that they are serious about keeping Italy and Greece in the euro.
:48:41. > :48:45.Secondly, countries such as Greece and Italy need to adopt sensible
:48:45. > :48:49.policies that will improve the performance of their economies. The
:48:49. > :48:55.Spanish government has adopted such policies, but the Italian
:48:55. > :48:57.government is still playing games. It may be better for a few
:48:57. > :49:02.countries to excited rather than trying to keep the whole thing
:49:02. > :49:05.together with all this pathetic contradictions, trying to keep it
:49:05. > :49:08.on its feet until the whole thing comes crashing down.
:49:08. > :49:11.But rather than fragmentation what seems oddly more likely is even
:49:11. > :49:14.closer financial integration of the tax rates, spending, and debt
:49:14. > :49:21.levels of 17 core Euro economies, a plan voiced by a UK government
:49:21. > :49:22.happy to keep well out. What these very impressive
:49:22. > :49:25.multimedia, multilingual information guides won't tell you
:49:25. > :49:35.in any language is that some see the current crisis as an
:49:35. > :49:38.opportunity for Britain to redefine its relationship with Europe.
:49:38. > :49:44.Whether the coalition does that as a spectator or a full participant
:49:44. > :49:47.is the source of a great deal of disagreement. I have never accepted
:49:47. > :49:52.that you cannot renegotiate the region relationship with the
:49:53. > :49:57.European Union. People should stop being so defeatist about this. If
:49:57. > :50:02.we have a government that is clear about what it wants, it just takes
:50:02. > :50:05.a government that puts its fate down until it gets it. This is a
:50:05. > :50:10.golden opportunity for the Government to think through what it
:50:10. > :50:12.is we want the European Union to be doing in the 21st century, what we
:50:13. > :50:19.wanted not to do and how we should order it.
:50:19. > :50:24.Coalition partners, however, are not so sure. I think they are
:50:24. > :50:30.trying to offer something that does not exist, you are either in or out,
:50:30. > :50:36.you cannot renegotiate things that have been negotiated. It is things
:50:36. > :50:38.-- it is like free beer and longer cigarettes, it does not exist.
:50:38. > :50:41.But for one party sitting in the real European Parliament, rather
:50:41. > :50:49.than this virtual reality, the choice between the UK as sideline
:50:49. > :50:52.spectator or full participant is a false one. We should just get out.
:50:52. > :50:58.A move the Conservatives haven't made, claims one new defector to
:50:58. > :51:03.Nigel Farage's UKIP because Europe is hard-wired into the system.
:51:03. > :51:07.establishment in Whitehall believes that Europe is here forever.
:51:08. > :51:12.Therefore the advice that comes in to the Department, the Secretaries
:51:12. > :51:18.of State and the ministers, and into the Prime Minister's private
:51:18. > :51:28.office and everything else, is essentially, in my opinion, pretty
:51:28. > :51:31.
:51:31. > :51:35.heavily tainted. I wasn't Whitehall for quite a long time. -- I was in.
:51:35. > :51:45.But time is short for politicians. They have a week to argue over how
:51:45. > :51:47.this might end, a closer hug or a messy goodbye. Merci au revoir.
:51:47. > :51:50.Very quickly afterwards, whatever those in Brussels hope for, the
:51:50. > :51:53.markets will deliver their verdict. So is it now time for Britain to
:51:53. > :51:57.re-examine its relationship with Europe? With me in the studio is
:51:57. > :52:00.the Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, who is a member of a new Tory group
:52:00. > :52:03.that wants what they call a "clear plan" to take back powers from the
:52:03. > :52:06.EU, and UKIP leader Nigel Farage, who is head of the UK Independence
:52:06. > :52:11.Party. Do you see this as a golden
:52:11. > :52:15.opportunity to renegotiate power as? I think we all agree there will
:52:15. > :52:19.be a paradigm shift in the structures of Europe. The Eurozone
:52:19. > :52:23.countries will have to integrate fiscally further. I think we can
:52:24. > :52:28.use it as an opportunity to say that we will support you, but in
:52:28. > :52:33.return, we want to repatriate powers around social and employment
:52:33. > :52:38.legislation. William Hague kicked it into the long grass this morning
:52:38. > :52:45.when he was interviewed by Andrew Marr. The repatriation of powers to
:52:45. > :52:49.this country is not an immediate prospect, I am in favour of it.
:52:49. > :52:53.said he is in favour of it. What he is really saying is that the
:52:53. > :52:59.priority today is to deal with the imminent crisis around the Eurozone
:52:59. > :53:05.countries. By the way, we also passed a piece of legislation that
:53:05. > :53:09.says any treaties that require more power to go the other way have to
:53:09. > :53:13.be put to a referendum. He made that point this morning. He's
:53:13. > :53:20.saying that we should deal with the crisis first. What do you make of
:53:20. > :53:26.that? This is a pro EU government. Since they have been in power, many
:53:27. > :53:30.powers, the control of the City of London, the setting up of a new
:53:30. > :53:36.external action service for the Union, all of these things have
:53:36. > :53:40.happened. This is a government led by David Cameron who promised a
:53:40. > :53:46.referendum on this question. We want to have a say on this, the
:53:46. > :53:50.public. On Friday and met with 400 businessmen and not one of them
:53:50. > :53:55.said to me we want a referendum today is to be out if you're it.
:53:55. > :54:01.They said that they need to be in there to export to that market, 40
:54:01. > :54:06.% of their exports go there. What would you say on a referendum?
:54:06. > :54:11.question is simple, do we want to trade deal our membership of a
:54:11. > :54:18.political union? Two-thirds of this country want a trade deal and
:54:18. > :54:22.nothing more. We have been saying this for three decades. Before we
:54:22. > :54:27.get bogged down, do you think that there will, no opportunity to
:54:27. > :54:32.repatriate powers, and do you believe that the EU will say, of
:54:32. > :54:36.course, have them back? Off course that, but there will be an
:54:36. > :54:40.opportunity. There will be a paradigm shift in the structures of
:54:40. > :54:45.Europe. To get through the crisis they will have to fiscally
:54:45. > :54:49.integrate. Do you believe the David Cameron and William Hague are
:54:49. > :54:55.pushing for that? They are looking to help with the current crisis,
:54:55. > :55:01.but when the time comes I will want to repatriate powers around
:55:01. > :55:05.employment and social legislation. I think we can do that. When people
:55:05. > :55:09.get the chance to vote in the Commons, do you believe there will
:55:09. > :55:15.be a vote in the Commons on there being a referendum in Britain being
:55:15. > :55:19.in or I it? I think if you go through the logic of the debate I
:55:19. > :55:26.will be saying, this is the wrong time to have a referendum. So you
:55:26. > :55:31.will be voting no? Absolutely. What are you going to say to the public?
:55:31. > :55:37.We want to make sure the single market works. 400 businessman said
:55:37. > :55:44.to me on Friday we do not want to be out. It will harm our economy.
:55:44. > :55:47.To have a referendum to pull-out if you it would be political suicide.
:55:47. > :55:54.Euro-sceptic viewers listening to that will be thinking, you have
:55:54. > :55:59.made the case for me, I will vote for UKIP? Not at all. People in
:55:59. > :56:05.this country, businessmen and women, understand the importance of
:56:05. > :56:10.exporting. To rebalance the economy we have got to export. These are
:56:10. > :56:14.hopelessly out of date arguments. Norway and Switzerland trade with
:56:14. > :56:24.Europe without being members of the Union. You must be terrified that
:56:24. > :56:29.they achieve this? They are not going to do it! Cameron and Hege
:56:29. > :56:34.committed to the European Union. They are true believers. They made
:56:34. > :56:39.the odd Euro-sceptic nice to try and stop people voting UKIP. If you
:56:39. > :56:44.are a Euro-sceptic thought to, if you want a referendum, UKIP is the
:56:44. > :56:49.party, not the Conservatives. did you make about the departure of
:56:49. > :56:55.Liam Fox, not the rights and wrongs of it, but in terms of the balance
:56:55. > :57:00.of the Cabinet? He will be missed, but Justine Greening was a Liam Fox
:57:00. > :57:04.supporter. John Redwood sounded very down in the mouth about it
:57:04. > :57:09.yesterday. Having read what he said about it, all I would say is that
:57:09. > :57:16.what David Cameron has done is that he has got all parts of the party
:57:16. > :57:24.in the Cabinet. Andrew Mitchell ran David Davis' campaign. Is the cat
:57:24. > :57:31.made Euro-sceptical enough? Look at William Hague. -- is the catmint.
:57:31. > :57:37.William Hague is the most respected and sound on Europe. He is now
:57:37. > :57:44.promoting closer integration for the Eurozone. It is the most pro EU
:57:44. > :57:50.Tory leadership since Edward Heath. That is a UKIP panic attack. No, I
:57:50. > :57:57.think it is correct. Time for me to stepping. Thank you, gentlemen, for
:57:57. > :58:00.being with this. -- with us. And that's it for this week.
:58:00. > :58:04.Yesterday morning, the St David's flag flew over Downing Street, and