:00:09. > :00:12.This week on the Politics Show: Where does this man stand on the
:00:12. > :00:15.euro crisis and Britain's relationship with the European
:00:15. > :00:19.Union? Ed Miliband joins us like.
:00:19. > :00:25.And back to the nineties in the Commons tomorrow with a Tory Prime
:00:25. > :00:28.Minister pacing a major back but were brought over Europe. Malcolm
:00:28. > :00:32.Rifkind and John Redwood were in the Cabinet then and take opposing
:00:32. > :00:36.views now, they will be here to argue the case.
:00:36. > :00:39.And as Libya officially declares its liberation from the Gaddafi era,
:00:39. > :00:44.there are growing calls for an investigation into the former
:00:44. > :00:48.dictator's debt. I will ask Andrew Mitchell if he believes the Libyan
:00:48. > :00:51.Prime Minister's account, but don't worry, we will ask him about Europe,
:00:51. > :00:56.due. In London, London councils are
:00:56. > :01:01.finding room for consultants despite budget cuts. Is it better
:01:01. > :01:11.having their own employees? We look at some of the problems of the Tory
:01:11. > :01:16.
:01:16. > :01:20.And joining me to rout the programme, the Guardian's Nick Watt
:01:20. > :01:25.and Sue Cameron of the Financial Times. First, the news with Max in
:01:25. > :01:29.the Winnie. Libya's liberation will be formally
:01:29. > :01:32.announced in the next few hours. The head of the National
:01:32. > :01:38.Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, will address a rally in the
:01:38. > :01:41.city of Benghazi. The NTC has defended Colonel Gaddafi's debt,
:01:42. > :01:49.which Phillip Hammond said this morning had stained the interim
:01:49. > :01:55.government's reputation. The day they have been waiting for
:01:55. > :02:00.42 years. Their day they have been fighting for eight hard months.
:02:00. > :02:05.Until a few days ago, many of these soldiers were battling Colonel
:02:05. > :02:08.Gaddafi's forces on the frontline. Today, the uniforms are freshly
:02:08. > :02:15.ironed as a witness what they believe is the start of a new
:02:15. > :02:20.chapter in Libya's history. This day will be in the memory of
:02:20. > :02:24.everyone, they will never forget this day. But questions remain
:02:24. > :02:27.about whether the fresh Start has already been tainted. This new
:02:27. > :02:33.amateur footage contains further evidence that the Libyan leader may
:02:33. > :02:37.have been shot dead after he was captured. This is an ambulance and
:02:37. > :02:41.a convoy believed to be carrying Colonel Gaddafi's body. Anti-
:02:41. > :02:46.Gaddafi fighters are congratulating the man they say shot him. This is
:02:46. > :02:51.the man who killed Gaddafi with his hand, using this gun, says one of
:02:51. > :02:56.his comrades. But still the interim Prime Minister insists Colonel
:02:56. > :03:02.Gaddafi died in crossfire, not at the hands of his captors. I saw the
:03:02. > :03:09.body myself. I can testify there were no bruises on his face or his
:03:09. > :03:15.body. It's some body once did -- wanted to abuse his body, that was
:03:15. > :03:18.the perfect chance. This is where it began eight months ago when
:03:18. > :03:22.protesters overran this huge military base. This is where it is
:03:22. > :03:26.ending with the announcement of the liberation of the country. Libyans
:03:26. > :03:32.are celebrating with a mixture of pride, joy, but above all, she
:03:32. > :03:36.relief that the ordeal is over. In neighbouring Tunisia, voting has
:03:36. > :03:41.begun in the country's first election since January's
:03:41. > :03:44.revolutions. The polls opened this morning in the first voting since
:03:44. > :03:51.the Arab Spring uprisings. A previously banned Islamist party is
:03:51. > :03:55.expected to win the biggest bloc in the nationalist government.
:03:55. > :04:00.David Cameron has arrived in Brussels to join talks on the you
:04:00. > :04:04.resent financial crisis. Mafi prose is there. -- on the eurozone
:04:04. > :04:09.financial crisis, Matthew Price is there.
:04:09. > :04:14.What they want is an end to the debt crisis. What they are focusing
:04:14. > :04:19.on his part of the jigsaw puzzle of a solution they are trying to put
:04:19. > :04:25.together, gross, Europe's economy is essentially stagnant at the
:04:25. > :04:29.moment and it is clear that without growth, any measures will only be
:04:29. > :04:34.short-term fixes. It is high stakes. He did not have a lot to say, but
:04:34. > :04:38.this is what he said when he arrived. The crisis in the eurozone
:04:38. > :04:43.is having an effect on all of our economies, Britain included. We
:04:43. > :04:47.need to deal with the issue so it is right to have a European Council
:04:47. > :04:52.and for them to discuss the issue today.
:04:52. > :04:56.Several sources tell me there has indeed been agreement between the
:04:56. > :05:01.finance ministers this weekend over how to recapitalise, how to
:05:01. > :05:05.strengthen Europe's banks, but on the big questions, on Greece, on
:05:05. > :05:09.boosting the bail-out fund, there is a long way to go and those
:05:09. > :05:15.discussions will continue into the coming days. We expect the big
:05:15. > :05:17.summit to be happening on Wednesday. New Zealand are the Rugby Union
:05:17. > :05:22.world champions after beating France in what was a tense tussle
:05:22. > :05:28.in Auckland. A try by New Zealand early in the first half proved
:05:28. > :05:31.decisive, with the All Blacks winning by just one point, 8-7. It
:05:31. > :05:35.is 24 years since they were last world champions.
:05:35. > :05:39.That is it, plenty more on BBC One at 6:00pm.
:05:39. > :05:44.Thank you. On one of the newspaper websites I
:05:44. > :05:47.visited this morning, there was the eurozone crisis story and above
:05:47. > :05:51.that the slogan, "Contagion, nothing spreads like fear".
:05:51. > :05:56.Actually, the Contagion bit was an advert for a new film. But the fear
:05:56. > :06:01.of contagion in the 17 countries which have the euro is what EU
:06:01. > :06:07.leaders are working on today. Here, the political class is more
:06:07. > :06:11.obsessed with a boat on EU membership coming tomorrow. What is
:06:11. > :06:17.going to happen? I think the Prime Minister will win
:06:17. > :06:19.the vote, because you will hear from Ed Miliband in a few moments
:06:19. > :06:24.that the Labour Party is supporting the government motion, and because
:06:24. > :06:27.David Cameron has put a three-line whip on his MPs and will probably
:06:27. > :06:35.find he will sneak a majority of the Conservative backbench vote.
:06:35. > :06:42.Does it matter? It matters in terms, perhaps, of Cameron's ability to
:06:42. > :06:46.manage his party. If it were to go through, I don't think it is going
:06:46. > :06:50.to, I don't think you will get that many Tory MPs voting for a
:06:50. > :07:00.referendum, but if it were to go through, all sorts of calamitous
:07:00. > :07:05.things could happen. However, I think it will not go through. I
:07:05. > :07:09.think that the appeal to Tory MPs will be, don't embarrass the
:07:09. > :07:13.government and for heaven's sake don't rock the markets even more.
:07:13. > :07:18.We will be good there because we will talk about this more later on.
:07:18. > :07:22.Later today Libya declares the end of Colonel Gaddafi's brutal reign,
:07:22. > :07:28.but controversy remains over how he met his death. Does it matter? What
:07:28. > :07:30.does it say about the fledgling democracy? The international
:07:30. > :07:38.development secretary Andrew Mitchell joins us from
:07:39. > :07:43.Nottinghamshire. Do you believe Prime Minister's account that he
:07:43. > :07:49.was caught in crossfire? It was obviously an extremely confusing
:07:49. > :07:52.moment and I would have preferred he faced justice either in a Libyan
:07:52. > :07:55.court or the International Criminal Court in the Hague. But it is
:07:55. > :07:59.difficult for us from the comfort of Britain to put ourselves into
:07:59. > :08:04.the position of the soldiers and those involved in the capture of
:08:04. > :08:11.Gaddafi, and the best account of those from the Libyans themselves.
:08:11. > :08:14.So you understand why people may have taken his life? I don't know
:08:14. > :08:19.what the precise circumstances were, by there were people around him who
:08:19. > :08:23.were still offering resistance, none of that is clear, but the
:08:23. > :08:28.point stands that it would have been much better if he had faced
:08:28. > :08:32.justice, either in the Libyan courts or the hade. And it matters,
:08:32. > :08:37.doesn't it, because for a fledgling democracy this is hardly an
:08:37. > :08:42.auspicious start? It does matter, but let's be clear what the NTC
:08:42. > :08:46.have been saying. They have, throughout the whole of this battle,
:08:46. > :08:51.been clear that there must be no retribution, they have been
:08:51. > :08:55.extremely good at trying to ensure that safety and conflict resolution
:08:55. > :08:59.and justice are prioritised. We have seen that in Tripoli and are
:08:59. > :09:03.seeing it throughout Libya, so I think the NTC have been clear that
:09:03. > :09:08.this is a new beginning and there must be no retribution against
:09:08. > :09:12.those who were fighting for Gaddafi in recent months. But then you look
:09:12. > :09:17.at the seams that unfolded with his demise and it looked rather
:09:17. > :09:23.different. That is true, but it is the heat of battle. The essential
:09:23. > :09:28.thing now is the NTC leadership saying there will not be
:09:28. > :09:31.retribution. There are good signs the NTC will ensure that does
:09:32. > :09:37.happen, and they have the strong support of the international
:09:37. > :09:42.community in that. What is the role of Britain now? We gave aid at the
:09:42. > :09:47.start of this when people were displaced, is any more aid budget
:09:47. > :09:52.going to oil rich Libya? We where rapid in the relief we gave to the
:09:52. > :09:56.poor migrant workers who were streaming across the border into
:09:56. > :10:00.Egypt and Tunisia, more than one million people have gone across the
:10:00. > :10:04.borders. Throughout this battle there has never been more than six
:10:04. > :10:09.or 7,000 camped on the borders each night, said the humanitarian work
:10:09. > :10:14.that Britain led was successful throughout a whole of the battles,
:10:14. > :10:19.and we have given strong support to UNICEF, who have performed
:10:19. > :10:23.brilliantly throughout this time. Going forward, Libya is a rich
:10:23. > :10:28.state, and we know very well that it has the capacity now to rebuild
:10:28. > :10:31.itself. There has been little destruction of infrastructure
:10:31. > :10:35.throughout the battles because of the care the coalition took not to
:10:35. > :10:40.cause collateral damage, and what they need now is some technical
:10:40. > :10:45.assistance and support for what is a Libyan lead UN supported
:10:45. > :10:50.stabilisation process. Can we move on now to what is happening in the
:10:50. > :10:54.House of Commons tomorrow? This vote on whether there should be a
:10:54. > :11:01.referendum on Britain's relationship with Europe. Has
:11:01. > :11:05.Downing Street got this one right? Yes, absolutely. I was a government
:11:05. > :11:10.whip during the Maastricht treaty debate in the House of Commons,
:11:10. > :11:14.which did such terrible damage to the Conservative party's
:11:14. > :11:18.reputations. There are two key things people in Britain want to
:11:18. > :11:22.see, the first is the armlock legislation the Government passed
:11:22. > :11:25.through the House of Commons which says no further powers can be
:11:25. > :11:30.transferred to Brussels without a referendum in Britain, that was a
:11:30. > :11:33.priority for many people, and secondly they want to see the euro
:11:33. > :11:38.as an crisis solved, which is why the Prime Minister is in Europe
:11:38. > :11:42.making sure Britain does its bit to help eurozone countries resolve the
:11:42. > :11:48.crisis which, as he described, is chilling the British economy as
:11:48. > :11:53.well as others around the world. Those are the two priorities. The
:11:53. > :11:58.referendum is a distraction. raise the ante of having a three-
:11:58. > :12:02.line whip? Why not let people express their opinions? It is the
:12:02. > :12:06.policy of the government that we should do the two things I have
:12:06. > :12:09.described, those being pursued vigorously by this government, and
:12:09. > :12:13.to have a referendum would be a distraction. The government is
:12:13. > :12:19.right to make it clear that is our view and invite that house of
:12:19. > :12:23.Commons to support it. A poll today says 80% want a free vote.
:12:23. > :12:28.truth is you ask the British public what are their priorities, Europe
:12:28. > :12:33.appears something like No. 15 or 16, so I think the key priorities are
:12:33. > :12:36.the two that I mentioned, have been the armlock on no more powers being
:12:36. > :12:41.removed from a sovereign government at Westminster into Brussels on one
:12:41. > :12:45.hand, and sold in the eurozone crisis which has the power if not
:12:45. > :12:50.sold to do damage to our economy and others around the world.
:12:50. > :12:55.talked about your role as a whip in the 90s, you ran David Davies'
:12:55. > :12:58.campaign. He said, do not refuse people their right to answer the
:12:58. > :13:03.question because you are afraid of what the answer could be. He is
:13:03. > :13:08.right, isn't he? The government has brought in a mechanism whereby
:13:08. > :13:13.these matters can be debated now in the House of Commons, that was one
:13:13. > :13:17.of our coalition commitments. But in my view, the right way to vote,
:13:17. > :13:21.what I will encourage my colleagues to do, is to vote against the
:13:21. > :13:26.motion for the reasons I hope I have set out. Andrew Mitchell,
:13:26. > :13:31.thank you for being with us. Where does Labour stand on the
:13:31. > :13:35.eurozone crisis and the referendum issue? Given its centrality, not
:13:35. > :13:38.surprising that Ed Miliband has chosen this weekend to intervene on
:13:38. > :13:44.the euro and David Cameron's backbench woes. Let's see what he
:13:44. > :13:49.has been saying. Ed Miliband is on the offensive
:13:49. > :13:54.over Europe, after months where he said little on the subject he has
:13:54. > :14:02.taken fresh Tory divisions as his due to go on the attack. He told
:14:02. > :14:06.his party they must reject Tamara's motion, an idea that he says is
:14:06. > :14:10.barking. He described David Cameron's handling of the issue as
:14:10. > :14:15.cack-handed. He laid into the Prime Minister for his decision to go
:14:15. > :14:19.ahead with a trip to Australia next week, arguing he should join
:14:19. > :14:23.eurozone leaders as they tend to find a solution to the crisis,
:14:23. > :14:27.banging on the door for more influence. And George Osborne is in
:14:27. > :14:32.his sights, too. He says the Chancellor is using the euro crisis
:14:32. > :14:36.as an excuse for the Government's mishandling of the economy and
:14:36. > :14:42.suggests he is glorying in the emergence of a two speed Europe.
:14:42. > :14:46.But questions remain over Miliband's prescription. He and the
:14:46. > :14:50.Shadow Chancellor have not offered many answers to the you resent's
:14:50. > :14:54.problems, preferring to talk about boosting growth at home. While
:14:54. > :14:58.plans for a VAT cut and tax-break for small firms have been taken
:14:58. > :15:02.seriously by business leaders, over proposals raised eyebrows,
:15:02. > :15:12.including a promise to penalise companies that put short-term
:15:12. > :15:13.
:15:13. > :15:17.advantage over the interests of the I am joined by the Labour leader.
:15:17. > :15:21.You have accused David Cameron of behaving in a totally cack-handed
:15:21. > :15:26.way over tomorrow's vote. His position is exactly the same as
:15:26. > :15:30.yours. It isn't. What I have done over Europe is show clearly
:15:30. > :15:36.leadership about where we need to be as a country, which is not
:15:36. > :15:41.having an out referendum now and also not indulging Euro-scepticism.
:15:41. > :15:45.That is the same as David Cameron. It isn't. What has David Cameron
:15:45. > :15:50.done over the last six years? He has appeased Euro-sceptics in his
:15:50. > :15:54.own party. He is facing them down. This is a person who stood on his
:15:54. > :15:59.own leadership campaign on getting out of a mainstream European
:15:59. > :16:02.People's Party and going with a fringe element. He is the person
:16:02. > :16:06.who at the election was saying let's renegotiate our whole
:16:06. > :16:10.relationship with Europe. It is no wonder his backbenchers are
:16:10. > :16:14.disappointed because he has been pretending he is one of them. Now
:16:14. > :16:19.he is facing a serious crisis in Europe and clearly it would be
:16:19. > :16:25.irresponsible for him to say yes, let's have an out referendum,
:16:25. > :16:33.because it would be bad for Britain. He has exactly the same position as
:16:33. > :16:36.you, three-line whip against it. is right to be opposing... Why is
:16:36. > :16:39.the leader of the -- false opposition... It is not false
:16:39. > :16:44.opposition. Why have we got the Conservative Party tearing
:16:44. > :16:50.themselves apart over Europe? The prime minister has not stood up to
:16:50. > :16:54.his party and said, look, actually, being in Europe, understanding our
:16:54. > :16:58.role in Europe, not dabbling with Euro-scepticism, that is a
:16:58. > :17:05.mainstream, important position we have to take. That is why he has
:17:05. > :17:09.brought the vote on himself. You have got a new Conservative Party
:17:09. > :17:12.who are as Eurosceptic if not more so than the previous generation.
:17:13. > :17:17.You have labelled some of these people as barking. I have said it
:17:17. > :17:20.would be barking to get out of Europe now. Let me explain.
:17:20. > :17:27.wonder whether you think some of your backbench colleagues are
:17:27. > :17:32.barking? Keith Vaz, Kate Hoey? me explain. We have boarders coming
:17:32. > :17:37.down across the world, we have interconnected countries, problems
:17:37. > :17:42.across borders. Climate change, the economy, terrorism. It would not
:17:42. > :17:48.only be wrong for Britain to get out of Europe. Where Mike Liggins
:17:48. > :17:52.the referendum? Because I think we can't afford the economic
:17:52. > :17:56.uncertainty. The economic uncertainty, when everybody in this
:17:56. > :17:59.country knows that priority is jobs and growth, the signal we would
:17:59. > :18:05.centre businesses and other countries in Europe and indeed
:18:05. > :18:08.investors in Britain that we are going to spend 18 months looking
:18:08. > :18:12.inwards, we would look inwards as a country, and start debating whether
:18:12. > :18:18.we should get out of Europe. I understand people's frustrations
:18:18. > :18:22.with Europe, but what I say is actually getting out or embarking
:18:22. > :18:27.on a debate about getting at is the wrong thing for the country. That
:18:27. > :18:31.is why I have taken my position. That is the same as David Cameron.
:18:31. > :18:35.He is opposing a referendum. Of course that is right. But what I am
:18:35. > :18:39.saying to the Prime Minister is you don't need to dabble with his Euro-
:18:39. > :18:43.scepticism, I am guaranteeing you will win the vote. What I don't
:18:43. > :18:48.want to see from him or William Hague is a nod and a wink, which is
:18:48. > :18:51.what we have seen over the last six years, to the Euro-sceptics in the
:18:51. > :18:56.Conservative Party. Everybody knows the Conservative Party has
:18:56. > :19:00.modernised over Europe. It is the fault of David Cameron. Some people
:19:00. > :19:03.will say the real conspiracy at the moment is the fact that the
:19:03. > :19:09.Conservatives and the Lib Dems and Labour are broadly on the same page
:19:09. > :19:15.and are almost in defiance of British public opinion. 61% want a
:19:15. > :19:19.referendum, 64% don't want to stay in. We are on a different page. The
:19:19. > :19:24.priority in Europe is jobs and growth. Let's have a reform agenda
:19:24. > :19:29.for Europe, like renegotiating the Common Agricultural Policy, and
:19:29. > :19:36.start investing Europe's money not actually in agricultural subsidies,
:19:36. > :19:42.but in investment for the future. David Cameron says that I want to
:19:42. > :19:46.go back to a position from 20 years ago. Let's spend our political
:19:46. > :19:49.capital renegotiating things like employment rights, paid holiday,
:19:49. > :19:55.maternity leave provisions. That is a totally different position on
:19:55. > :20:01.Europe. You have a circa 1990 position from David Cameron,
:20:01. > :20:06.dabbling with Euro-scepticism and essentially saying I agree with...
:20:06. > :20:11.I have a different priority. wanted to ask you about the public.
:20:11. > :20:17.34% believed we should leave the EU. 34% in this country, are they
:20:17. > :20:21.barking? No, I think that is a judgment on some of the problems in
:20:21. > :20:24.Europe, like in the single currency, and also a judgment on the fact
:20:24. > :20:30.that we all need to make a better case for Europe and for the way
:20:30. > :20:34.Europe can work to the benefit of us. I am coming from a position of
:20:34. > :20:38.saying I am pro-European, but I am also pro-reform. Europe has to
:20:38. > :20:43.change in the way it spends its money, on issues of waste and how
:20:44. > :20:49.it serves people. Let me ask this single question. Yes or no answer.
:20:49. > :20:56.Has Brussels got too much power? don't think it has too much power.
:20:56. > :21:00.No need to repatriate powers? way power is exercised fails our
:21:00. > :21:06.country sometimes. Let me give you an example. We have seen a high
:21:06. > :21:09.profile case of a train company. One of the issues is over European
:21:09. > :21:13.Union procurement rules and the way those decisions that individual
:21:13. > :21:18.countries can make to support their industries. The way power is
:21:18. > :21:23.exercised in Europe needs to change and the way but up it is not the
:21:23. > :21:27.powers themselves? It is less about the power itself, but the way it is
:21:27. > :21:32.used. And the accountability. have said if powers were
:21:32. > :21:35.repatriated, it would be an end of maternity benefits. That is the
:21:35. > :21:39.Government's position. The UK parliament could legislate what it
:21:39. > :21:43.wanted. You said in an interview yesterday it would be an end to
:21:43. > :21:47.those things. So the government wants to embark on a wholesale
:21:47. > :21:50.renegotiation of our relationship with Europe over particular rights,
:21:50. > :21:56.employment and social rights, and they don't want to change any of
:21:56. > :22:00.those things? That is the wrong priority. Might it not be the
:22:00. > :22:03.priority for the country... Might it not be in the interests of the
:22:03. > :22:08.country to be up to change those policies as and when it is in the
:22:08. > :22:13.economic interests of the country rather than being tied to Brussels?
:22:13. > :22:17.No. We have a single market, a basic benchmark of social rights
:22:17. > :22:23.across borders. It is a very small number, actually. It is the right
:22:23. > :22:28.thing to do. It is right that it is not just the case that you want a
:22:28. > :22:32.single market. Can you rule out prime minister Miller Band ever
:22:32. > :22:37.joining the euro? I don't think that will happen. I don't think it
:22:37. > :22:41.will happen. It depends how long I am Prime Minister for but I can't
:22:41. > :22:47.see it. Would you say that because of the structural problems you have
:22:47. > :22:51.seen recently, can't you just say I would never want Britain to be part
:22:51. > :22:55.of the Europe -- Euro? First of all, we made the right decision not to
:22:55. > :23:00.go into the euro in the last Labour government. The second thing I
:23:00. > :23:03.would say it is there are structural problems, and we are not
:23:03. > :23:08.going into the euro, I can't see that happening in the foreseeable
:23:08. > :23:12.future. But the real priority... Her you're not closing the door?
:23:12. > :23:18.is very, very unlikely. You said David Cameron should change his
:23:18. > :23:21.plans next week to be in Brussels on Wednesday. Why? We are not part
:23:21. > :23:26.of the eurozone. You are making the mistake that the government is
:23:26. > :23:31.making. Eurozone must sort out its problems, we must have a
:23:31. > :23:34.sustainable position for Greece. We must make sure the European banks
:23:34. > :23:39.are properly dealt with and the problems in the European banks.
:23:39. > :23:42.There is a missing element and that is growth. Growth doesn't just come
:23:42. > :23:47.from the policies we decide on at home, they come from the policies
:23:47. > :23:52.we decide on in Europe and across the world. What David Cameron
:23:52. > :23:56.should be banging on the door to say is yes, let's sort out the
:23:56. > :24:02.problems of debt, but let's sort out the problems of growth. Don't
:24:02. > :24:04.you think he's doing that? There is no sign of doing it. We have
:24:04. > :24:09.collectively austerity. Every country saying let's cut as far and
:24:09. > :24:14.as fast as we can and keep our fingers crossed we will get growth.
:24:15. > :24:18.Everybody is wrong apart from Ed Miliband and Ed Balls? No, but the
:24:18. > :24:22.government took a gamble. They gambled on the fact we would have
:24:22. > :24:27.an export-led recovery, but that requires exporting your goods,
:24:27. > :24:31.including to Europe. We don't have the growth in Europe at the moment.
:24:31. > :24:35.You just described a scenario where everybody is dealing with the
:24:35. > :24:42.deficit. You're saying everyone else is wrong, Ed Balls and Ed
:24:42. > :24:46.Miliband a right. Who agrees with you? President Obama is saying at
:24:46. > :24:51.the moment, absolutely rightly, that the world and his country
:24:51. > :24:54.needs to move forward by getting people back into work. Across the
:24:54. > :24:59.world, there are different views on this. What I say very clearly is
:24:59. > :25:03.that the government hasn't understood... I criticise them for
:25:03. > :25:07.domestic failure, but also a failure of international leadership.
:25:07. > :25:11.There are problems in the eurozone, sort out those problems, but get
:25:11. > :25:16.growth going. You talk about growth and the importance for business to
:25:16. > :25:19.start growing and developing. You pulled off an achievement at the
:25:19. > :25:23.Labour Party Conference where you managed to unite the CBI, the
:25:23. > :25:29.Federation of Small Business, the British Chambers of Commerce, Walid
:25:29. > :25:31.-- all of them against your speech. I don't to greet the whole of
:25:31. > :25:40.business was United against. The Engineering employers' Federation
:25:40. > :25:44.came out in support. British Chambers of Commerce, talk of good
:25:44. > :25:50.this is bad misses the point. Federation of Small Business, we
:25:50. > :25:54.are disappointed at the Labour leader. The different reactions for,
:25:54. > :25:57.it is true to say I said something quite important about the way the
:25:57. > :26:03.economy needed to change and the way we needed to build long-term
:26:03. > :26:07.wealth in this country. I will not apologise for saying that the
:26:07. > :26:11.lessons of 2007/08, not just the immediacy of the banking crisis,
:26:11. > :26:14.but the fact that wealth was not built on solid foundations, needs
:26:14. > :26:19.to change all up our wanton promote businesses that will create lasting
:26:19. > :26:23.well. It is the message I will keep talking about because British
:26:23. > :26:28.people know we need big change in the economy, not just for the short
:26:28. > :26:31.term, but in the way we build wealth. This week you appointed a
:26:31. > :26:37.businessman to a key position within the Labour Party. He has a
:26:37. > :26:43.history as a property tycoon and was seen as an asset stripper.
:26:43. > :26:48.is not a predator. There is a specific pace -- case people have
:26:48. > :26:53.talked about in relation to him. 3,500 people lost their pensions.
:26:53. > :27:00.The regulator said there was not a case to answer. Minerva lost money
:27:00. > :27:06.as a result of what happened. What I say is much more... Minerva would
:27:06. > :27:10.be a producer rather than a predator? We need business people.
:27:10. > :27:14.I get criticised for saying we are so reliant on the trade unions and
:27:14. > :27:20.when business people support the Labour Party, people say, as they
:27:20. > :27:25.try to pick holes. He is not a predator and he is somebody who
:27:25. > :27:32.raised huge sums of money for the NSPCC. A great example of corporate
:27:32. > :27:36.social responsibility. OK. You were saying that he wanted Cameron to be
:27:36. > :27:40.in Brussels on Wednesday and not in Australia where the Commonwealth
:27:40. > :27:45.summit is taking place. But the Commonwealth summit, they are
:27:45. > :27:50.expecting to do �6 billion worth of new business. They will have a
:27:50. > :27:56.chance to engage with India, emerging nations. 53 countries. It
:27:56. > :27:59.is a modernising agenda, trying to turn the Commonwealth into a 21st
:27:59. > :28:06.Century organisation and you just say, are pure. I definitely Stone
:28:06. > :28:10.say that. I want him to get to the Commonwealth, but when there are
:28:10. > :28:16.crucial decisions being made about jobs and growth in this country,
:28:16. > :28:20.the idea that the prime minister can be here to have internal
:28:20. > :28:24.squabbles on Monday, but can't be in Brussels on Wednesday to fight
:28:24. > :28:29.for Britain's economic interests is the wrong choice. To attend the
:28:29. > :28:34.eurozone summit, you have to pay to play. So if we join that summit, we
:28:34. > :28:39.should contribute to the European financial stability? No. On the
:28:39. > :28:43.vote tomorrow, surely the problem we have, the polls showed it
:28:43. > :28:46.support for a referendum, we have a democratic deficit which was caused
:28:47. > :28:50.by your government saying there will be a referendum on the
:28:50. > :28:54.European constitution, then when that was junked by the people of
:28:54. > :29:02.France and the Netherlands, it came back with a different name but it
:29:02. > :29:08.was basically the identical treaty. Your government said no referendum.
:29:08. > :29:13.On the first question you asked, I am very clear about the position on
:29:13. > :29:18.this. The Prime Minister is making the wrong call. You don't have to
:29:18. > :29:24.pay to play, as you say. Gordon Brown, at a very important summit
:29:24. > :29:27.in 2008/09, was there as part of the key decisions and that is what
:29:27. > :29:32.they are responsible prime minister should be doing. I will be at the
:29:32. > :29:37.table, forcing Britain's issues onto the agenda. I don't accept
:29:37. > :29:40.what you say about the constitution. In the future it is clear that if
:29:40. > :29:44.there is major constitutional change that will affect Britain,
:29:44. > :29:48.there would be a referendum and that is clear. But what I say is
:29:48. > :29:52.that I don't agree with you that the issues we face in relation to
:29:52. > :29:56.the unpopularity on Europe are to do what happened before the last
:29:56. > :30:05.election. Some issues do reflect the way Europe has been doing its
:30:06. > :30:09.On Libya, we saw Tony Blair and Gordon Brown embracing Gaddafi,
:30:09. > :30:14.David Cameron overthrowing him. Are there congratulations for David
:30:14. > :30:19.Cameron on his stance? Definitely, he took the right position and that
:30:19. > :30:22.is why I supported him. I am proud the British Armed Forces supported
:30:22. > :30:28.the Libyan people in controlling their destiny.
:30:28. > :30:33.Ed Miliband, thank you. Later, unless you are feeling in
:30:33. > :30:38.Scotland, two veterans of the Tory euro wars, Sir Malcolm Rifkind and
:30:38. > :30:44.John Redwood debate tomorrow's vote. First, the Politics Show where you
:30:44. > :30:48.are. Welcome to the London part of the
:30:48. > :30:54.Politics Show. Coming up: Why is London the most difficult place in
:30:54. > :30:56.the UK to adopt a child? First, facing big cuts to budget
:30:56. > :31:01.spending, decisions by local authorities are under the
:31:01. > :31:06.microscope, but it is not stopping many councils from forking out on
:31:06. > :31:10.consultants. Is it money well spent and is it part of a wider agenda to
:31:10. > :31:15.reduce the municipal workforce? In Conservative controlled Hammersmith
:31:15. > :31:19.and Fulham, the practice has come under fire.
:31:19. > :31:23.In town halls all across London, managers can be faced with tasks
:31:24. > :31:33.they think their staff are not up to, but how can be at hand if they
:31:33. > :31:36.are willing to spend a bit of money and call in... The consultants. The
:31:36. > :31:42.government think councils need to take a little more care when it
:31:42. > :31:46.comes to relying on the so-called Super heroes. There are some
:31:46. > :31:50.circumstances where you need outside expertise you cannot get
:31:50. > :31:54.within your mainstream workforce, technical issues, perhaps, but you
:31:54. > :31:58.have to be cautious about it. The approach we adopted in government
:31:58. > :32:02.is to cut back on the employment of consultants and other outside
:32:02. > :32:07.contractor has unless it is really bringing in an expertise you could
:32:07. > :32:11.not get in House. That should be the same across the board.
:32:11. > :32:15.Politics Show has been passed this document, an audit of the way
:32:15. > :32:20.Hammersmith and Fulham Council have used consultants. It looks at seven
:32:20. > :32:24.of the many working at the local authority and found... No evidence
:32:24. > :32:29.of any formal documented selection and recruitment process, no
:32:29. > :32:33.evidence of any formal performance monitoring, no complete list of
:32:33. > :32:36.that consulting company is being used by the council. Of seven
:32:36. > :32:41.consultants used by the council which the report examined, an
:32:41. > :32:46.agreement could only be found with one. We got a document from one
:32:46. > :32:50.local authority in London where they had done an audit, they looked
:32:50. > :32:56.at seven consultants and could only find a written agreement with one
:32:56. > :33:01.out of those seven. Your reaction to that? That does not seem right.
:33:01. > :33:05.Slackness is not forgivable in these circumstances. It has to be
:33:05. > :33:08.proper documentation, that is the point of what we are doing. The
:33:08. > :33:13.culture that the previous government allowed to flourish did
:33:13. > :33:17.not pay much attention to this. the case of Hammersmith and Fulham
:33:17. > :33:20.Times, responsible for housing in the council, the housing looked at
:33:20. > :33:24.another four consultants and uncovered an agreement signed with
:33:24. > :33:30.a dissolved company, and with another former employee who
:33:30. > :33:34.provided services at �21,000 for 25 days' work, again with no written
:33:34. > :33:38.agreement found. The opposition at the council but the overall cost at
:33:39. > :33:42.million. It did not know how many consultants they were employed in,
:33:42. > :33:47.how much they were paying them, they had no terms and conditions
:33:47. > :33:51.all objectives, and they wasted between five and �12 million a year
:33:51. > :33:55.in this manner. In one case, a written agreement between a
:33:55. > :34:01.consultancy company and Hammersmith & Fulham Homes was found, but
:34:01. > :34:04.neither party had signed it. says absolute in confidence --
:34:04. > :34:09.incompetence, doesn't it? It is what it says to the normal members
:34:09. > :34:13.of the public to see what is going on and understand Government should
:34:13. > :34:19.spend their money wisely. What this says is, for the bit we have
:34:19. > :34:21.managed to see, there is ground level -- a grand level of
:34:21. > :34:25.incompetence happening with the managing of public money in the
:34:25. > :34:31.borough. The council say since receiving the report they have
:34:32. > :34:38.acted on the recommendation. From Hammersmith and Fulham,
:34:38. > :34:45.Councillor Greggs met, cabinet member there, joins me. Welcome. --
:34:45. > :34:49.Greg Smith. Do you admit this is embarrassing, with the chaos in the
:34:49. > :34:53.procedures in how you employed consultants? We were the ones who
:34:53. > :34:59.commissioned the report to look at some of the things people have been
:34:59. > :35:03.saying in order to get the house in order in those particular areas.
:35:03. > :35:07.What I have got to say is no one is more critical than ourselves on
:35:07. > :35:12.ourselves and we always tried to be more efficient, to do things better.
:35:12. > :35:17.We are the only council that has tried to reduce the burden on the
:35:17. > :35:23.taxpayer, we reduced council tax four times in recent years, and we
:35:23. > :35:27.share a cheap executive. Because it is you that asked people to come in
:35:28. > :35:35.and look at the use of consultants, it can still be embarrassing? The
:35:35. > :35:40.findings can provide you with Miller assurance on how you manage
:35:40. > :35:46.the consultants -- male assurance. For a flagship council, bat is
:35:46. > :35:50.embarrassing, isn't it? Let's look at the history on this. When we won
:35:50. > :35:55.Hammersmith and Fulham council in 2006, we asked, how many
:35:55. > :35:59.consultants are employed by the council? Have not got a clue. We
:35:59. > :36:02.got a grip, we are the ones that implemented a programme where we
:36:02. > :36:08.froze recruitment and any department that wanted to employ
:36:08. > :36:11.anyone at all, from a cleaner to a senior member of staff, had to
:36:11. > :36:14.justify why that recruitment process should star it. Did you
:36:14. > :36:19.take your eye off the ball and failed to do the same due diligence
:36:20. > :36:23.with consultants? We commissioned this report from Deloitte, who have
:36:23. > :36:27.come back with recommendations, all of which we implement it. Were you
:36:27. > :36:32.surprised that the severity of the findings, that there were not
:36:32. > :36:38.documented records of agreements with consultants? We are turning
:36:38. > :36:41.round a council that, for decades, went a certain way. As I have said,
:36:41. > :36:48.there was no clue how many consultants there were in the
:36:48. > :36:55.council. I can tell you now there are 73. You had reduced the number?
:36:55. > :36:59.Absolutely. But still failed to... You accept procedures are not
:36:59. > :37:04.ideal? When you have a consultant filling a temporary position, there
:37:04. > :37:08.are no details about the contract, no sign whether it was put out to
:37:08. > :37:14.fair competition. We have high standards of recruiting people and
:37:14. > :37:19.I am confident every single person, or whether a consultant or coming
:37:19. > :37:22.in on contract to teach kids music or sport, has gone through the most
:37:22. > :37:25.rigorous of processes. What the Deloitte report showed was that
:37:25. > :37:30.there were things we need to do differently and better, and we have
:37:30. > :37:33.done every one of them are. What is the average daily rate of a
:37:34. > :37:37.consultant that you pay? Consultants are from photographers
:37:37. > :37:43.that take a couple of photos at events all the way up to... Have
:37:43. > :37:47.you got an average? It would be unfair to say an average rate,
:37:47. > :37:50.because the word is pretty meaningless when some people are
:37:50. > :37:55.brought in literally as suppliers, but because the rules say they have
:37:55. > :38:00.to be paid in a certain way, reports can look at them as if they
:38:00. > :38:06.are consultants. One thing struck me, a former employee left and then
:38:06. > :38:09.was paid �21,000 for 25 days' work. Were they on that rate when they
:38:09. > :38:15.were a member of staff, or on leaving have they upped their pay
:38:15. > :38:19.rate? There is nothing unusual in people, having full-time paid
:38:19. > :38:23.employment some might, moving away, retiring, coming back and then
:38:23. > :38:29.helping with something they have a key specialism in as a consultant.
:38:29. > :38:32.In terms of money, that member of staff, and other members of staff,
:38:32. > :38:38.when they come back are they paid more than when they were staff
:38:38. > :38:43.members? Not necessarily, some well, some went, but we are a value for
:38:43. > :38:49.money council and one person being focused on quite a lot as a
:38:49. > :38:53.consultant has been -- has saved Hammersmith & Fulham Homes �6
:38:53. > :38:58.million in running costs for the organisation. That is value for
:38:58. > :39:05.money. Where there any other dissolved companies, we heard about
:39:05. > :39:09.one, were their overs you paid money to for consultants? -- were
:39:09. > :39:12.there any others? That company was trading under the same name,
:39:13. > :39:16.changed company number and there was a clerical error that the wrong
:39:16. > :39:20.number was put in, which was put right, but it is nothing more than
:39:20. > :39:25.a clerical error from somebody who puts the numbers into a machine.
:39:25. > :39:29.One thing is how much you paid to consultants with whom there was no
:39:29. > :39:33.written agreement, in other words how did the people of Hammersmith
:39:33. > :39:39.and Fulham know the money was well spent? How much had been paid for
:39:39. > :39:43.which there is no paper trail, that is surely of concern? I am sure
:39:43. > :39:47.there are paper trails out there, but that they are in a central
:39:47. > :39:52.register, which to Lloyd said we needed, and have now implemented,
:39:52. > :39:57.is another matter -- which Deloitte said we needed. We are currently
:39:57. > :40:02.paying about �1.3 million to what you are calling consultants, but
:40:02. > :40:06.many of whom are, for example one person is contracted to do Movement
:40:06. > :40:12.therapy sessions in a special school, not a consultant that takes
:40:12. > :40:17.you on a journey. Do you think, is the intention in the end that the
:40:17. > :40:24.use of consultants is to reduce the direct workforce, it paid pensions
:40:24. > :40:28.and so on? We are about value for money, we have reduced 1,500 staff
:40:28. > :40:33.from the council since 2006, but from time to time you need to bring
:40:33. > :40:36.in someone with a specialism. Doesn't they show what can go wrong,
:40:36. > :40:41.and you do not have procedures in place to ensure value for money
:40:41. > :40:45.when you take on consultants in this way? We have corrected the
:40:45. > :40:50.procedural points, but one consultant saved �6 million in
:40:50. > :40:54.running costs for Hammersmith and Fulham homes, got us to the second
:40:54. > :40:57.lowest leaseholder charges in all of London. Consultants coming in
:40:57. > :41:04.with great specialisms, great experience, help us to save money,
:41:04. > :41:08.and that is what we are looking to did. Thank you for commit in.
:41:08. > :41:12.We have national adoption Week coming up, but our London councils
:41:13. > :41:19.putting up too many barriers to adoption? The capital lags behind
:41:19. > :41:22.other parts of the country, just 7% of children were adopted last year
:41:22. > :41:27.compared to nationally 11%. But some local authorities are finding
:41:27. > :41:31.ways to improved the rate. For George and Mary, adopting their
:41:31. > :41:34.son was like changing, but as they found out when they went to their
:41:34. > :41:40.local council, not as straightforward as they had. They
:41:40. > :41:45.were very, very busy at that time, and Mauroy less we had a five or 10
:41:45. > :41:49.minute conversation on the found and they said, we cannot help you
:41:49. > :41:54.at this time because we are so busy, but can you call back in six
:41:54. > :41:59.months? When they were contacted by a children's charity, things
:41:59. > :42:06.started to changed. In the first meeting with the charity, they were
:42:06. > :42:10.pretty honest, relaying they thought it would be difficult to
:42:10. > :42:15.match us, in particular at that time there was more emphasis in
:42:15. > :42:21.terms of getting ethnicity correct, and a Greek-Cypriot background with
:42:21. > :42:27.a finish background was a difficult makes to find an appropriate
:42:27. > :42:31.placement. A year later, they said, times have changed, we do now think
:42:31. > :42:36.there is a chance we could match you, and we would like you to talk
:42:36. > :42:41.to was again. While they did adopt in London, the charity works with
:42:41. > :42:45.parents across the country, matching parents to suitability and
:42:45. > :42:51.not location. Since 2006, they have worked with Harrow council who have
:42:51. > :42:55.gone on to see the best adoption rates in the country. We have a 22%
:42:55. > :42:58.success rate for children being adopted. When children come into
:42:59. > :43:03.care, especially young children who we think would benefit from being
:43:03. > :43:08.adopted, the charity is there, they have adoptive parents ready, said
:43:08. > :43:11.the child does not have to sit around. They go from birth parents
:43:11. > :43:16.to the family without too many changes, so it is best for the
:43:16. > :43:21.child. But across the board there are barriers which prevent children
:43:21. > :43:26.from finding permanent homes. Everyone I have spoken to who is
:43:26. > :43:31.involved in the adoption process say it takes far too long. In our
:43:31. > :43:35.case, the legal system could have allowed us potentially to have
:43:35. > :43:39.adopted our young boy at least several months earlier if it had
:43:39. > :43:44.been streamlined. For families looking to adopt, change looks like
:43:44. > :43:48.it might be on the horizon. With increased government support, as
:43:48. > :43:53.David Cameron out like in his speech. How can we have let this
:43:53. > :43:57.happen? We have people flying all over the world to adopt babies
:43:57. > :44:02.while the care system at home agonises about placing black
:44:02. > :44:06.children with white families. With the right values and effort, let us
:44:06. > :44:12.be the ones who end this scandal and help the most vulnerable
:44:12. > :44:17.children of all. Strong words, but with such -- but will it result in
:44:17. > :44:22.any change for London's families? The former head of Barnardo's is
:44:22. > :44:26.here, now a ministerial adviser on adoption. Where do you think the
:44:26. > :44:32.problem lies in the capital? That was a very good film, and Harrow
:44:32. > :44:36.are leading the way not just in the capital but in England in terms of
:44:36. > :44:40.seizing adoption, taking it seriously, managing it with an
:44:40. > :44:47.urgency. But they are being grown- up enough to bring in an
:44:47. > :44:52.organisation to help them. If everyone else in England, not just
:44:52. > :44:58.in London, gripped adoption the way Harrow has done, the numbers would
:44:58. > :45:04.probably dog all. So they are exemplar, and if they are, a number
:45:04. > :45:09.of London authorities may not be doing it the way you would like it
:45:09. > :45:14.to be done? It is very mixed. My sense is all authorities in London
:45:14. > :45:18.are waking up to the challenge, but from my point of view, someone who
:45:18. > :45:21.wants adoptions to grow, seeing the conference speech and the Prime
:45:21. > :45:24.Minister putting his personal authority behind adoption was
:45:24. > :45:29.terrific, and a sense in the capital and elsewhere a real
:45:29. > :45:35.movement. But there is a lot to be done. We have to feel adoptions,
:45:35. > :45:40.too many children in care, not all can be adopted, but many of them,
:45:40. > :45:50.and we have too many parents being turned away and discouraged, failed
:45:50. > :45:50.
:45:50. > :45:55.by an assessment process I do not Do you realise -- recognise it is
:45:55. > :46:02.more difficult in London? Why is it happening? I would not say London
:46:02. > :46:05.is worse than under -- other parts of the country. I do hear more
:46:05. > :46:09.often than I would like to anecdotes about parents being
:46:09. > :46:15.turned away from London boroughs because their ethnicity doesn't
:46:15. > :46:20.match. The government has made it very, very clear... His there an
:46:20. > :46:25.immediate adherence to that code? Are you seeing local authorities
:46:25. > :46:31.for not insisting on this restriction? No. We have some way
:46:31. > :46:35.to go yet and that guidance may over time need to be reinforced and
:46:35. > :46:40.indeed the government may have to decide whether or not to legislate.
:46:40. > :46:45.Is it having an effect? A limited effect. We are a multicultural
:46:45. > :46:50.society. In all other walks of life we have concluded, rightly, that
:46:50. > :46:54.colour doesn't matter. But in London and the rest of England, a
:46:54. > :47:02.black child is three times less likely to be a doctor than a white
:47:02. > :47:08.child. I think that is a scandal. - - likely to be adopted. Do you
:47:08. > :47:12.think the guidelines... Do you think we will legislate? I think
:47:12. > :47:17.the guidelines, we were right to start with guidelines, and the
:47:17. > :47:21.leadership we see from the children's minister, Michael Gove,
:47:21. > :47:25.and the Prime Minister, is making a difference. But my advice to
:47:25. > :47:30.ministers, if this time next year I have not seen a change in practice,
:47:30. > :47:33.my advice will be they probably need to legislate. Can I ask you
:47:33. > :47:38.something that has been raised to ask? Does the economy affect the
:47:38. > :47:43.number of people coming forward for adoptions? It has been said to me
:47:43. > :47:47.that that is the case, but I think there are other things we can do to
:47:47. > :47:52.counterbalance that. I want people to be told the truth about adoption,
:47:52. > :47:56.adoption can be very, very challenging. But adoption can be a
:47:56. > :48:01.joy. Sometimes the information people get from local authorities
:48:01. > :48:07.when they first applied can be unduly negative. Are too many
:48:07. > :48:12.people being placed with family friends? If those placements end up
:48:12. > :48:17.breaking down, it delays the age at which the adoption... There is not
:48:17. > :48:22.a simple answer. Sometimes family and friends are the best place and
:48:22. > :48:26.the best example his grandparents, who do a fantastic job in caring
:48:26. > :48:29.for their grandchildren. But there is evidence that sometimes we are
:48:29. > :48:33.compromising on what is best for the child by putting them with an
:48:33. > :48:39.uncle or aunt when the best thing would be adoption. Do you think
:48:39. > :48:43.that balance is not right? We don't know yet. Tim Loughton has just
:48:43. > :48:47.commissioned research into the breakdown of what he called a
:48:47. > :48:51.special guardianship orders where somebody goes to a relative. I am
:48:51. > :48:57.worried that sometimes we take the easy route and not the best route.
:48:57. > :49:01.Was that research in London? Across England. Do you think they could be
:49:01. > :49:06.a rush to too much reliance on friends and family? I want to be
:49:06. > :49:09.very careful because I have seen so many circumstances where it is the
:49:09. > :49:13.very, very best thing and I don't want to suggest a grandparent that
:49:13. > :49:18.they can't be great carers. But sometimes social workers whisper to
:49:18. > :49:22.me that in some of those cases, a compromise is made and the best
:49:22. > :49:27.thing for a child would be a permanent adoption. The length of
:49:27. > :49:32.time it seems to take, whether it is decision-making or the courts,
:49:32. > :49:37.there are lot of children at over four or five, the longer it takes
:49:37. > :49:40.the long -- less likely they are to be adopted. There are children
:49:40. > :49:47.under four waiting for adoption. Children grow old waiting for
:49:47. > :49:51.adoption. A becomes less likely -- it becomes less likely that they
:49:51. > :50:00.will become looked after. It takes two-and-a-half years to achieve an
:50:00. > :50:02.adoption. You have a child of 12 months, much less of a challenge in
:50:02. > :50:07.terms of a successful adoption can and that child is three years old
:50:07. > :50:13.or more before they are adopted. The earlier they are adopted, the
:50:13. > :50:17.more successful that adoption is likely to be. A year from now, how
:50:17. > :50:21.will you know whether you have been successful? The number of children
:50:21. > :50:25.cleared for adoption will have shown a significant increase. I am
:50:26. > :50:33.now confident it will have done. You can do that in the year? I am
:50:33. > :50:43.confident it is happening now. will hold you to it! I cue. With
:50:43. > :50:45.
:50:45. > :50:49.Now, I don't know if you've noticed, but everything's been feeling a bit
:50:49. > :50:52.early '90s lately. Economic hard times, The Stone Roses going back
:50:52. > :50:55.out on the road and tomorrow, a Tory rebellion on Europe of the
:50:55. > :50:59.sort we haven't seen since those happy days of the Maastricht treaty.
:50:59. > :51:01.So who better to make the case for and against tomorrow's motion on a
:51:01. > :51:08.referendum on the UK's relationship with Europe than two veterans of
:51:08. > :51:14.the Major cabinet - Tory MPs Sir Malcolm Rikfind and John Redwood.
:51:14. > :51:18.Easy questions first. John Redwood, make the case for. The public wish
:51:18. > :51:21.for this is overwhelming. Remember how they started. The Prime
:51:21. > :51:27.Minister said we will have petitions on the Number Ten website
:51:27. > :51:31.for things people are interested in. The public said we want a debate on
:51:31. > :51:36.this. The backbench committee said let's do just that. I would urge
:51:36. > :51:39.colleagues to have a good, sensible debate, no recriminations, but get
:51:39. > :51:44.to grips with the issues and then vote for a referendum because that
:51:44. > :51:48.is what the majority of the people want. Sir Malcolm Rifkind, why is
:51:48. > :51:53.he wrong? Whatever level of enthusiasm you have for the EU, it
:51:53. > :51:59.is the wrong motion and the wrong time and the wrong subject. The
:51:59. > :52:04.eurozone is in total crisis. If that goes wrong, it is Britain's
:52:04. > :52:08.drama as well as the rest of Europe. For us to be involved in in would
:52:08. > :52:11.navel-gazing at the moment on a matter that will not happen, there
:52:11. > :52:15.will not be a referendum, is a massive distraction from the
:52:15. > :52:22.serious issues the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of dealing with.
:52:22. > :52:25.If it wants to be passed, seriously reduce his authority and the
:52:25. > :52:29.division it shows in the governing party is not helpful to Britain or
:52:29. > :52:34.the government. I don't see it like that. There is this huge public
:52:34. > :52:38.yearning. The very popular part of the motion with the public and MPs
:52:38. > :52:43.is the Third Way, the wish to negotiate a relationship for
:52:43. > :52:48.Britain based on trade and co- operation. This is a modern notion.
:52:48. > :52:53.We know the world has moved on. We are now facing, immediately, the
:52:53. > :52:56.possibility of a much strengthened European government for the 17 in
:52:56. > :53:04.the euro. That is a different problem for Britain from the old
:53:04. > :53:08.European Union. What about the point of Malcolm Rifkind? It can't
:53:08. > :53:13.possibly be a distraction, it is at the centre of the modern debate. We
:53:13. > :53:17.are saying to Europe, if you wish to go ahead, we will not stand in
:53:18. > :53:22.your way because we are decent and understand the problems. It is a
:53:22. > :53:26.mess. But Britain need a different relationship. If they go ahead with
:53:26. > :53:30.that, that is not a European Union in which we are a strong
:53:31. > :53:36.negotiating member. We need a different relationship. John said
:53:36. > :53:40.the attractive thing are three options, in, out or in any
:53:40. > :53:45.negotiation based on trade and co- operation. That is ingenuous, as is
:53:45. > :53:49.the motion. That third option is what Norway and Switzerland have.
:53:49. > :53:54.That is leaving the European option -- Union. I do believe there needs
:53:54. > :53:58.to be diversity in the EU. When the eurozone of it actually comes
:53:58. > :54:03.forward asking the European Union as a whole for new powers for those
:54:03. > :54:07.members who want to do it further, that is when we have negotiations.
:54:07. > :54:11.That is when Britain says, if you want to have that, fine, but
:54:11. > :54:14.Britain and others who don't, we have to have an equal right to
:54:14. > :54:19.repatriate certain parts. At the end of that negotiation, that is
:54:19. > :54:23.when you have a referendum. This is happening now. I'm sure Malcolm
:54:23. > :54:26.must have read some of these documents. The European six-pack
:54:26. > :54:30.for strengthening economic government. President arose so it
:54:30. > :54:34.made a powerful speech said a lot of this had to apply to Britain as
:54:34. > :54:39.well as the 17 euro members. There will be a call for much stronger
:54:39. > :54:42.surveillance of the banking system, a call for a new financial services
:54:42. > :54:48.tax to be imposed on Britain as well as the 17. This is the reality.
:54:48. > :54:54.Of course I want our government to be engaged reactively, but we
:54:54. > :54:57.need... John sounds sweet, but it is nonsense, forgive me. The
:54:57. > :55:01.discussion tomorrow is not about whether they should be a debate
:55:01. > :55:05.about Europe and whether there are options to be taken forward, it is
:55:05. > :55:10.whether at this moment, with all the crisis going on, we should have
:55:10. > :55:14.a referendum in the UK Sailing does Britain want to leave the you? The
:55:14. > :55:17.idea that that would not be massively destabilising, seriously
:55:17. > :55:21.eroded Government's authority, as well as make Britain look a
:55:21. > :55:24.laughing stock when the real crisis facing Europe is the future of the
:55:24. > :55:31.eurozone and how we prevent a prevent -- a repeat of the Labour
:55:31. > :55:34.disaster. Don't you worry that you were out of tune with your party on
:55:34. > :55:40.this? John Redwood is closer to the heartbeat of the Conservative Party
:55:40. > :55:47.on this issue that new? No, there his head and heart. I am strongly
:55:47. > :55:50.against the single currency. did you are sure eyebrows? I don't
:55:50. > :55:53.remember you writing or speaking strongly about how the euro would
:55:54. > :55:57.go wrong in the way I did. When I was Foreign Secretary I had a
:55:57. > :56:01.public spat with Ken Clarke as Chancellor because I said as
:56:01. > :56:07.Foreign Secretary the Cabinet is against joining the single currency.
:56:07. > :56:11.We had a great drama that day. Delighted. But the Cabinet wouldn't
:56:12. > :56:16.rule out joining the euro, which was why I resigned. My personal
:56:16. > :56:20.view is not that important. The crucial point is the vast majority
:56:20. > :56:24.of the Conservative Party have various degrees of Euro-scepticism.
:56:24. > :56:30.The issue is not that. It is whether this is the right moment,
:56:30. > :56:33.with Europe in high drama on the eurozone issue, to be having this
:56:33. > :56:39.self-indulgent exercise as to whether a non-existent referendum
:56:39. > :56:44.should be held. How has this been handled by Number Ten? I would urge
:56:44. > :56:49.them to conduct it in a good spirit on Monday. This is something the
:56:49. > :56:52.public is taking four. So don't have a three-line whip?
:56:52. > :56:55.government is clearly going to defeat the motion overwhelmingly
:56:55. > :56:59.because Labour and the Lib Dems have whipped their members and most
:56:59. > :57:04.of them will want to vote against the motion. The issue is not in
:57:04. > :57:09.doubt. Nick Clegg says you are tilting at windmills on this. Don
:57:09. > :57:14.Quixote Redwood. I disagree with Mr Clegg. What I am others are trying
:57:14. > :57:17.to do, this is not my motion, it is a result of public enthusiasm, but
:57:17. > :57:24.I am trying to do is get the government to seriously engage with
:57:24. > :57:27.this issue. We need to negotiate now because now is the crisis and
:57:27. > :57:31.the opportunity. Now we would be very constructive if Britain was
:57:31. > :57:35.less engaged because it is one less problem for the others when they
:57:35. > :57:40.are in a burning building. The last thing we want to do is trust
:57:40. > :57:46.ourselves in the building. A final thought. I do feel like I am
:57:46. > :57:49.reliving the 1990s, enjoying it as I am speaking to you both! Won't
:57:49. > :57:56.this remind people of the Conservative Party of the 1990s
:57:56. > :58:01.where you were all falling out? That would be the Labour spin. The
:58:01. > :58:05.real debate is one required by the public about the issues now.
:58:05. > :58:09.People's budgets are suffering now, the economy is in trouble, partly
:58:09. > :58:15.because of European issues. final word from you, is this
:58:15. > :58:19.damaging? Europe is a real issue, the Conservative Party is 19 absent
:58:19. > :58:24.Eurosceptic. The question for tomorrow is this sensible, to start
:58:24. > :58:29.trying to force a referendum at this moment in our history? Rather
:58:29. > :58:31.than concentrating, as John was coming round to saying, just