:00:08. > :00:11.This week on the Politics Show. Late on Friday, I stood outside the
:00:11. > :00:14.Parliament in Greece watching Papandreou face down his MPs in a
:00:14. > :00:18.knife-edge confidence vote. He won. Tomorrow, the international markets
:00:18. > :00:24.will give their verdict. So is this Greek tragedy beginning its final
:00:24. > :00:27.Does Ed Miliband support the St Paul's protesters here at home? He
:00:27. > :00:30.says this morning that only the "reckless" would ignore the "danger
:00:30. > :00:38.signals". And David Thompson is in the skies
:00:38. > :00:42.over Glasgow. The SNP believe it's time for Scotland to fly solo. But
:00:42. > :00:51.could a plan to keep the UK in one piece actually have a profound
:00:51. > :00:56.In the capital, months after it was condemned over its links with
:00:56. > :01:01.Colonel Gaddafi, the LSE is in talks over a training deal with the
:01:01. > :01:11.new regime. Could we soon see a new wave of Council House building here
:01:11. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:16.I'll be talking to Labour's Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna.
:01:16. > :01:19.And to two Scottish political heavyweights: Secretary of State
:01:19. > :01:22.Michael Moore. And the First Minister himself, Alex Salmond.
:01:22. > :01:25.Joining me for the whole programme today, Rowenna Davis from The
:01:25. > :01:28.Guardian. And The Spectator's political editor, James Forsyth.
:01:28. > :01:31.But first, the news with Adam Parsons.
:01:31. > :01:34.Good afternoon, The Labour leader Ed Miliband has warned that "only
:01:34. > :01:39.the most reckless" would ignore the message from anti-capitalist
:01:39. > :01:42.protesters camped outside St Paul's Cathedral. Writing in today's
:01:42. > :01:44.Observer newspaper, Mr Miliband says they reflect a frustration in
:01:44. > :01:54.mainstream Britain about the disparity between people's values
:01:54. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :02:02.and the way the country is run, as The Occupy protesters have been
:02:02. > :02:06.camped outside St Paul's for three weeks, causing the temporary
:02:06. > :02:11.closure of the cathedral and resignations at the top of the
:02:11. > :02:21.Church. In an interview today, Ed Miliband warned that only the most
:02:21. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:27.rectus would ignore or dismiss the I think the question of whether the
:02:27. > :02:33.protests day is to be negotiated between the protesters, St Paul's
:02:33. > :02:37.and the Corporation of London. My point is different, politics has to
:02:37. > :02:41.recognise that, on this occasion, they may be a few hundred people
:02:41. > :02:46.protesting at St Paul's, but there are millions and millions who are
:02:46. > :02:50.thinking, the protesters, is not what I would do, but there are
:02:50. > :02:56.issues which need to be talked about. Mr Miliband said many would
:02:56. > :02:59.not agree with the protesters but he warned people let felt -- people
:02:59. > :03:03.felt let down. The Prime Minister has been more cautious in his
:03:03. > :03:08.response. Last week he said the Archbishop of Canterbury had spoken
:03:08. > :03:11.for the whole country when he called for greater responsibility
:03:11. > :03:18.at the top of society. He also said the freedom to demonstrate does not
:03:18. > :03:22.include pitching a tent anywhere in London. The banker chosen by St
:03:22. > :03:27.Paul's to head a group reconnecting the financial with the ethical, has
:03:28. > :03:30.warned the market economy has slipped its moral moorings with
:03:30. > :03:34.disastrous consequences. Within the last half hour, the Transport
:03:34. > :03:37.Secretary Justine Greening has visited the site of the M5 crash
:03:37. > :03:40.which claimed seven lives on Friday night. The motorway is likely to
:03:40. > :03:48.remain closed between junctions 24 and 25 near Taunton in Somerset for
:03:49. > :03:52.the rest of the day. Our reporter Louise Hubball is there.
:03:52. > :03:55.This police investigation here it is still very much under way, the
:03:55. > :04:00.police have confirmed to ask no more bodies have been discovered
:04:00. > :04:06.here overnight, so the number of people who have been killed in this
:04:06. > :04:09.horrific accident remains at seven. But the police investigation is
:04:09. > :04:14.continuing, much of the wreckage was removed overnight. All of the
:04:14. > :04:20.vehicles taken away. There remains an awful lot of debris. Dozens of
:04:20. > :04:23.officers are still on site sifting through that debris, that
:04:23. > :04:27.painstaking investigation continuing, to try and pieced
:04:27. > :04:33.together what has happened here. The police are using a digger to
:04:33. > :04:37.lift away some of that debris. It has been suggested the M5 will
:04:37. > :04:43.remain closed until at least tomorrow morning. It seems, from
:04:43. > :04:50.looking at those images of the motorway surface, that some
:04:50. > :04:54.resurfacing of that section of that road will need to be done. Justine
:04:54. > :04:57.Greening, the Transport Secretary, is here, taking a look at this
:04:57. > :05:01.painstaking investigation, as the police tried to work out how this
:05:01. > :05:04.accident happened. Holiday companies are warning that the
:05:04. > :05:06.number of ordinary tourists expected to visit London next
:05:06. > :05:10.summer during the Olympics could plummet. The European Tour
:05:10. > :05:13.Operators Association says bookings are down by an average of 90%. It
:05:13. > :05:19.says visitors are being deterred by inflated hotel prices, and a
:05:19. > :05:22.misconception that all rooms have been sold to sports fans.
:05:22. > :05:27.The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are to make Kensington Palace their
:05:27. > :05:30.permanent London home. They'll move into an apartment where Princess
:05:30. > :05:34.Margaret used to live in two years' time, using other accommodation
:05:34. > :05:36.there in the meantime. Their new home is being refurbished at the
:05:36. > :05:39.taxpayers' expense. Palace officials says costs will be kept
:05:39. > :05:45.to a minimum. There's more news here on BBC One
:05:45. > :05:49.at 6pm. Until then, have a good afternoon.
:05:49. > :05:51.It's a great filmic device to start with. A whole bunch of seemingly
:05:51. > :05:54.separate, disparate events, and then seeing how they all come
:05:54. > :05:58.together to form a central narrative. This week, a stockbroker
:05:58. > :06:01.goes bust in New York. Greece teeters on the edge. The IMF moves
:06:01. > :06:09.into Italy. World leaders gather in Cannes. And a bunch of protesters
:06:09. > :06:13.sleep in tents at the foot of St Paul's. Ed Miliband has spoken
:06:13. > :06:19.about the protesters and the fact they seem to represent much wider
:06:19. > :06:22.concern, do they? Yes, I think they completely and utterly do. Ed
:06:23. > :06:28.Miliband is right to say they have a right to be there. Actually they
:06:28. > :06:32.do express a much wider grievance in society. Not everybody wants to
:06:32. > :06:38.go down there and pitch their tent, that is understandable. For those
:06:38. > :06:43.who do, they should be allowed to voice their opinion. Ed Miliband is
:06:43. > :06:47.lucky he believes in politics, that being a politician can help to
:06:47. > :06:52.solve these crises. But many on the streets feel this is their last
:06:52. > :06:57.resort, that they're not being listened to. Do you agree?
:06:57. > :07:01.I don't think anyone can be happy with how the system is working. If
:07:01. > :07:06.you are in favour of responsibility, you can't be happy with bankers
:07:06. > :07:10.paying themselves massive bonuses years after the Bank's new brought
:07:10. > :07:15.down the financial system. These protesters, what is remarkable is
:07:15. > :07:20.how few people there are when you consider how unpopular bankers are,
:07:20. > :07:28.how justified people are to fill with their discontent with the
:07:28. > :07:36.system. We will see David Cameron going back to morally responsible
:07:36. > :07:40.capitalism. The Chocolate Orange speech was saying, some of
:07:40. > :07:47.corporate behaviour it is not practical to regulate again, but we
:07:47. > :07:50.should call up companies who behave badly. Is that enough? It is very
:07:50. > :07:54.political risk for Ed Miliband? People will be looking at the
:07:54. > :07:59.protesters, thinking, you are making a mess of our national
:07:59. > :08:04.monument, what are you doing there? It is tricky timing with
:08:04. > :08:08.Remembrance Sunday. It would be a gesture to say, we will clear a way
:08:08. > :08:13.next Sunday and come back. Miliband is saying, I understand
:08:13. > :08:17.the anger felt by protesters which is also felt by a lot of people in
:08:18. > :08:22.the country. He is not saying they should carry on or advocating other
:08:22. > :08:28.people go down there. The other thing, that is what a democracy is
:08:28. > :08:34.about, we have a right to put our tent down. Yes, sometimes it is
:08:34. > :08:37.difficult but we have to negotiate. Those protesters are peaceful.
:08:37. > :08:40.It's been another rollercoaster week for the world economy. Plenty
:08:40. > :08:49.of ups, plenty of downs. And, like any good roller coaster ride, it
:08:49. > :08:54.has left many left feeling terribly Home of the film festival,
:08:55. > :09:00.Hollywood's glittering beau monde. This week, Cannes saw no glamour,
:09:00. > :09:04.and you can forget Marilyn Monroe, Hepburn and instead, Nicolas
:09:04. > :09:07.Sarkozy, David Cameron and a bemused Barack Obama took their
:09:07. > :09:12.place on the red carpet as the leaders of the G20 came to
:09:12. > :09:15.Croisette. Last week in Brussels, Europe thought they had an
:09:16. > :09:22.agreement on the Greek bail out but suddenly the Greeks insisted on a
:09:22. > :09:26.referendum. And we turned from Life Is Sweet to Apocalypse Now. This is
:09:26. > :09:30.the Madness of King George, a Greek tragedy starring George Papandreou.
:09:30. > :09:35.He ditched the referendum and had high noon with his Parliament late
:09:35. > :09:41.on Friday. That country's Long Day's Journey Into Night is far
:09:41. > :09:51.from over. If Greece is not saved, we will see chaos, an international
:09:51. > :09:51.
:09:51. > :09:58.banking, good in -- Armageddon. It won't be confined to Greece, the
:09:58. > :10:04.G20 has an Italian job. The decks in Italy are vast, world leaders
:10:04. > :10:10.are getting Brassed Off. Two fifths of our exports go to the eurozone.
:10:10. > :10:15.If they go down like the Titanic, so could we. David Cameron will not
:10:15. > :10:20.commit to the bail-out but he has agreed to increase what we give to
:10:20. > :10:25.the IMF which is already �29 billion. So can this disaster movie
:10:25. > :10:29.have a happy ending? Is there a great escape? Everyone is trying to
:10:29. > :10:39.do the right thing but there is no Stallone or Bruce Willis waiting in
:10:39. > :10:40.
:10:40. > :10:47.the wings, and all too easily, tragedy can turn to fast. -- farce.
:10:47. > :10:52.Labour's Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna is with me.
:10:52. > :10:57.What difference... You have been saying David Cameron should have
:10:57. > :11:03.done more. With Ed Miliband, how would it have been different at the
:11:03. > :11:10.G20? I would ask you to contrast the approaches of Alistair Darling
:11:10. > :11:15.and Gordon Brown. But that was a banking crisis, not eurozone.
:11:15. > :11:18.is also a financial crisis. What I am try to do is illustrate to the
:11:18. > :11:26.leadership which is needed. Gordon Brown was ridiculed for chartering
:11:26. > :11:31.a plane, encouraging world leaders who were not that it -- intending
:11:31. > :11:37.to attend, locking them in a room and insisting that the details of
:11:37. > :11:40.the agreements were discussed. it can't be the case David Cameron
:11:40. > :11:46.could be in the driving seat, dealing with the eurozone crisis,
:11:46. > :11:52.when Britain is not part of the eurozone and decisions? We are
:11:52. > :12:02.uniquely placed, partly because we have the city, the major financial
:12:02. > :12:03.
:12:03. > :12:08.services centre in the world. There is a role there for the country to
:12:08. > :12:12.play. On a wider level, it is not just a failure of leadership on the
:12:12. > :12:17.part of the Prime Minster and Chancellor, but across the board.
:12:17. > :12:21.We're not clear run the details. I looked at the communique which
:12:21. > :12:25.spoke about an action plan for growth in jobs with a focus on
:12:25. > :12:31.youth unemployment. What is the gunmen doing here to tackle youth
:12:31. > :12:37.unemployment which has passed 900,000? What would Ed Miliband and
:12:37. > :12:43.Ed Balls do? We would be instituted a feature jobs find scheme to get
:12:43. > :12:50.people back into work to make a real difference.
:12:50. > :12:54.Let us look at the other specifics. Danny Alexander has been speaking
:12:54. > :12:58.to the BBC, talking about the ceiling of what could be the
:12:58. > :13:04.contributions of Britain to the IMF. We thought the maximum it could be
:13:04. > :13:10.without going to Parliament was a �20 billion. Danny Alexander spoke
:13:10. > :13:14.about �40 billion. We need a detail. It is usual practice after a summit
:13:14. > :13:18.like this for the Prime Minster to come to the Commons to give the
:13:18. > :13:22.details which is what we need. We are not very clear from what Danny
:13:23. > :13:29.Alexander said this morning what the commitment would be. It is
:13:29. > :13:34.important to state that what we do here, we stand behind the IMF. And
:13:34. > :13:38.we guarantee its funds. One of the things Christine Lagarde said on
:13:38. > :13:42.Friday was that she had been given an assurance by the world leaders
:13:42. > :13:46.that she would be given all necessary resources. What does that
:13:46. > :13:53.mean? We need the Prime Minster to come to Parliament and explain this
:13:53. > :14:01.to us and if he does not we will be asking the Speaker to make sure.
:14:01. > :14:06.I am sure there will be a statement. What if it is said we do not need a
:14:06. > :14:12.boat, because of special instruments? This is a
:14:12. > :14:20.controversial area. Effectively, that money by a back door go
:14:20. > :14:24.towards the euro zone. The key thing for us in relation to the IMF
:14:25. > :14:32.is, it isn't the job of the IMF to step in and perform the function of
:14:32. > :14:37.the European Central Bank, and the bail out fund. IMF funds are there
:14:37. > :14:47.to help individual countries which are facing solvency crisis, not to
:14:47. > :14:48.
:14:48. > :14:53.Should they ECB be the Llanddarog last resort? You would expect that.
:14:53. > :14:56.So he will be able to earth persuade Angela Merkel that?
:14:56. > :15:01.asked if the European Central Bank should perform the role of a
:15:01. > :15:05.central bank in Europe. That is what it should do. You're asking if
:15:05. > :15:07.Ed Miliband would be able to instruct Angela Merkel... You have
:15:08. > :15:12.made play over the last couple of days about the failure of
:15:12. > :15:18.leadership. I'm interested if you think that Ed Miliband would be the
:15:18. > :15:24.one to quash her over the head and changed her view? It isn't about as
:15:24. > :15:27.quashing any of our counterparts over the head. What we want them to
:15:27. > :15:31.come forward with is a solution. As you said in the lead-up to this
:15:31. > :15:36.discussion, this has a massive effect on our economy. It isn't
:15:36. > :15:44.just that a large amount of traders are in the euro-zone, the banks had
:15:44. > :15:49.a certain amount of exposure as well. The Robin Hood Tax, the Tobin
:15:49. > :15:53.tax, the transaction tax on banks, whatever you want to call it. You
:15:53. > :15:57.are in favour? In principle, we like it. But it has to be something
:15:57. > :16:03.done on a global basis, in particular, the Americans need to
:16:03. > :16:06.be involved. Otherwise, it would leave the city exposed and it would
:16:06. > :16:10.not achieve the aim we wanted to. What about if the European Union
:16:10. > :16:19.pressed ahead and it wasn't global? That would hit Britain hard? That
:16:19. > :16:21.is why we are saying it needs to be buy into it. Ed Miliband's comments
:16:21. > :16:27.about St Paul's Cathedral and the protests this morning, would you go
:16:27. > :16:30.down and join them? Well, I'm not sure it is a question of whether I
:16:30. > :16:34.would go out there and drawing them or not. I think there is a bigger
:16:34. > :16:40.issue. What they demonstrate is an unease with the situation that we
:16:40. > :16:44.find ourselves in. Do you support them? Well, I don't think it's a
:16:44. > :16:49.question of... It's a straight question! Do you have sympathy with
:16:49. > :16:53.them? It's not a question of whether rise support or sympathise.
:16:53. > :16:57.The challenge for politicians is to answer the questions they are
:16:57. > :17:00.raising and address the concerns people have. What I would say is
:17:00. > :17:03.that they represent a growing unease, which has felt across
:17:03. > :17:07.families and businesses in the whole of the country. They don't
:17:07. > :17:10.have a monopoly on that anger about the system that we have at the
:17:10. > :17:17.moment. The question is, what are the answers we are going to come up
:17:17. > :17:22.with? Did people let me to sit inside a tent? No, they elect
:17:22. > :17:26.politicians to come up with the solutions to the problems they face.
:17:26. > :17:31.99% played by the rules, the one presented use that. That seems a
:17:31. > :17:35.little simplistic. The do you think the 1% includes the politicians
:17:35. > :17:38.that have spectacularly failed to regulate the banks, who have bailed
:17:38. > :17:45.out the banks without restrictions, does that include people from the
:17:45. > :17:51.last government? Well, you're asking me whether that... Are no,
:17:51. > :17:57.in your opinion. Does the 1% include the people that set up the
:17:57. > :18:04.regulatory system that failed, that let the banks run riot? I've no
:18:04. > :18:08.idea whether that is the perception. Do we have a responsibility? Over
:18:08. > :18:12.our time in government, should we have better regulated the banks? Of
:18:12. > :18:16.course. We have said that. We have to accept responsibility and I am
:18:16. > :18:19.happy to do that. I think we should be humble enough to do that.
:18:19. > :18:23.issue I am most interested in at the moment is whether Labour is
:18:23. > :18:27.going to let the Conservatives get away with what seemed to me as a
:18:27. > :18:32.massive failure in Cannes. Similarly, billions of pounds of
:18:32. > :18:36.British taxpayers' money is now going to be going into the IMF, to
:18:36. > :18:41.effectively bail out the eurozone. We didn't benefit from the euro, at
:18:41. > :18:46.the same time we are going to be paying for them. Don't you think we
:18:46. > :18:51.need a vote on this issue? As I said earlier, let's see the details.
:18:51. > :18:54.At the moment, we don't know what we are being asked to vote for. The
:18:54. > :18:58.number one concern people have in this country is the lack of growth.
:18:58. > :19:01.We have had 0.5% growth as a result of government policies over the
:19:01. > :19:05.last year. The worrying thing is that this is before you have
:19:06. > :19:12.factored in the effect of the euro- zone crisis on our economy. We have
:19:12. > :19:15.to leave it there. Now, six months ago the SNP won a stunning victory
:19:15. > :19:20.in elections for the Scottish parliament. They crushed Labour in
:19:20. > :19:26.its heartlands and wiped the Lib Dems of the face of mainland
:19:26. > :19:29.Scotland. It has promised to hold a referendum on independence in
:19:29. > :19:32.Scotland at some point commands some people already have the
:19:32. > :19:37.anniversary of the battle -- Battle of Bannockburn circled in their
:19:37. > :19:41.diaries. They would like to just be a straight yes or no. But there is
:19:41. > :19:45.another option, it's called devolution max. Some people would
:19:45. > :19:51.like that on the ballot paper as well. We sent David Thomson home to
:19:51. > :19:54.Glasgow to find out more. Not much beats the duty of the
:19:54. > :19:58.Scottish landscape, even just a few miles outside of Glasgow. The
:19:58. > :20:00.political map is pretty fascinating as well. There is a real
:20:00. > :20:05.possibility that Scotland will reinvent its relationship with the
:20:05. > :20:11.rest of the UK with a referendum on independence. The SNP insist that
:20:11. > :20:17.it is time to fly solo. But there is another option on the table. It
:20:17. > :20:20.is called devo max. The idea is that Scotland remains in the UK but
:20:20. > :20:24.is given tax-raising powers and responsibility for virtually
:20:24. > :20:28.everything apart from defence and foreign policy. It keeps the Queen
:20:28. > :20:32.and it keeps the pound. It is not independence, but it is pretty damn
:20:32. > :20:36.close. That is why it is controversial. This is essentially
:20:36. > :20:40.the maximum amount of powers we can have in terms of devolution. It's
:20:40. > :20:44.also the ability of Scotland to raise taxes in Scotland to pay for
:20:44. > :20:47.the services that we provide. I fear that if we don't have an
:20:47. > :20:52.alternative to independence in the form of some kind of fiscal
:20:52. > :20:55.autonomy, devo max, then I think the SNP will continue to do well. I
:20:55. > :20:58.believe this keeps us in the Union, but it also means we transform the
:20:59. > :21:04.relationship of Scotland within the Union. It also means that Scotland
:21:04. > :21:07.will travel much further down do devolution road. You might expect a
:21:07. > :21:12.former First Minister of Scotland to want more powers for Scotland.
:21:12. > :21:16.But what about the view from London? There are some English Tory
:21:16. > :21:20.MPs that are up for devo max, but with strings. If the Scottish
:21:20. > :21:24.people want more physical autonomy, as a democrat I find it difficult
:21:24. > :21:27.to see that is something we can object to. But it has to be honest
:21:27. > :21:30.and fair to the rest of the Union. That means ending the current
:21:30. > :21:37.subsidy that the Scots get, which is arbitrary and unfair because it
:21:37. > :21:40.is not linked to the rest of the country. We also have to deal with
:21:40. > :21:44.Scottish MPs in Westminster voting on issues that affect every voter
:21:44. > :21:49.in the country apart from their own. Some people think that is a trap
:21:49. > :21:52.for Scotland. You can negotiate for more powers, but you've got to
:21:52. > :21:57.understand that if you take some of the good things, if you want to get
:21:57. > :22:01.the oil revenues, then you've also got to accept that there is a huge
:22:01. > :22:03.spending imbalance. England would rightly say, we are not going to
:22:03. > :22:08.carry on with a situation where spending per head in Scotland is so
:22:08. > :22:11.much greater than in England. That has consequences. Once you open the
:22:11. > :22:14.door and start looking at these issues, there are some difficult
:22:14. > :22:19.questions and they have got to be answered before people go to the
:22:19. > :22:22.polls, not afterwards. At the moment, the Government is pushing
:22:22. > :22:26.through the Scotland Bill. It gives the Scottish parliament the power
:22:26. > :22:29.to raise as much as 35% of its own revenue, mostly through a Scottish
:22:29. > :22:37.rate of income tax with the rest coming in a block grant from
:22:37. > :22:41.Westminster. It falls short of devo max. So, how much appetite for
:22:41. > :22:46.change is there in Scotland right now? And how much do people really
:22:46. > :22:50.want devo max? In an exclusive poll for the Politics Show we found that
:22:50. > :22:55.Scottish public opinion is pretty evenly divided. 29% said they
:22:55. > :23:01.wanted to keep things as they are. Almost the same number supported
:23:01. > :23:08.full independence. The most popular option was devo max, 33% wanted
:23:08. > :23:12.increased powers, short of independence. But this is not just
:23:12. > :23:15.about Scotland. Devo max would be a fundamental change to how the
:23:15. > :23:19.United Kingdom as a whole is governed. Our polling suggests that
:23:19. > :23:24.England may not be ready for it. There, the most popular option was
:23:24. > :23:29.to keep things as they are. Interestingly, almost a quarter of
:23:29. > :23:32.our England sample thought that Scotland should go it alone.
:23:32. > :23:36.However, devo max, full powers short of independence, was only
:23:36. > :23:44.supported by 14% of those in England. That could be a problem
:23:44. > :23:47.that that was the option chosen by Scotland. Devo max is actually UK
:23:47. > :23:53.federalism. Scotland cannot impose that on the rest of the country.
:23:53. > :23:55.Neither should we. Can you imagine the outcry in Scotland of the
:23:55. > :23:58.English people wanted to impose a form of government on Scotland
:23:58. > :24:02.against their wishes? There is nothing to stop the Scottish
:24:02. > :24:07.government holding a referendum. But only Westminster has the power
:24:07. > :24:12.to make it binding. Scotland can demand what it wishes to demand. At
:24:12. > :24:17.the end of the day, it can't expect to get everything and anything it
:24:17. > :24:21.wants. There must be negotiation. The rest of the big -- United
:24:21. > :24:26.Kingdom must be involved. So devo max is perhaps a messier option
:24:26. > :24:30.than either status quo or independence. The SNP's referendum
:24:30. > :24:34.is not planned to happen for at least another couple of years. The
:24:34. > :24:38.Unionist parties have yet to formulate a response. The questions
:24:38. > :24:44.it raises means that this is a pressing issue, not just for
:24:44. > :24:47.Scotland's political landscape but for Britain as well.
:24:47. > :24:55.The Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore joins us now from
:24:55. > :25:00.Edinburgh. Thank you for being with us. Do you support devo max?
:25:00. > :25:02.support Scotland continuing within the United Kingdom. As a Liberal
:25:02. > :25:07.Democrat in the coalition government, I am delighted to be
:25:07. > :25:13.piloting more powers for Scotland through Westminster so that we can
:25:13. > :25:17.give the huge economic powers that your report pointed out. But we
:25:17. > :25:22.would retain Scotland firmly in the UK. That interest in poll shows us
:25:22. > :25:29.that the demand for independence is actually still at the historical
:25:29. > :25:33.levels it has been, and declining. In Scotland, the debate is moving
:25:33. > :25:42.on. People are beginning to worry about the possibility of a rigged
:25:42. > :25:48.referendum. If more powers was the choice of the people of Scotland,
:25:48. > :25:52.if independence got a majority of 51%, more powers 90%, that we would
:25:52. > :25:56.somehow become independent. It feeds into uncertainty that people
:25:56. > :26:02.are concerned about. In the business community, as we saw what
:26:02. > :26:06.Citigroup, and their big warning about the investment in renewables.
:26:06. > :26:11.Let's go back to my question, do you support devo max? You say that
:26:11. > :26:15.you support your party in the Scotland Bill, you don't want
:26:15. > :26:19.independence, we know that. Would you like to see home rule for
:26:19. > :26:24.Scotland with a full tax-raising powers and only foreign affairs and
:26:24. > :26:31.defence dealt with by Westminster? As a liberal, I have supported home
:26:31. > :26:33.rule for as long as I have been a member of the party. My party is
:26:33. > :26:38.continuing to develop what home rule means in a modern context.
:26:38. > :26:42.We're working through that at the moment. Wait a minute. The point is
:26:42. > :26:47.that, over time in Scotland, while we have developed our thinking
:26:47. > :26:51.about devolution, we have developed the idea is on numerous occasions.
:26:51. > :26:55.We have then sought to get common ground and consensus with other
:26:55. > :27:00.parties, with business, trade unions, civic Scotland. Then, when
:27:00. > :27:04.we've got the mandate, we have legislated. At the moment, with
:27:04. > :27:08.respect to your poll, many people oppose the idea of devo max. It is
:27:08. > :27:12.ill-defined. It is something the First Minister talks about, without
:27:12. > :27:16.telling us what it means. That's not surprising, he doesn't tell us
:27:16. > :27:20.what independence means. Until we get that clear, the people Scotland
:27:20. > :27:24.can't be expected to make an informed decision. If you could
:27:25. > :27:30.clarify, would you like to seek a question about that on the ballot
:27:30. > :27:33.paper? What the Scottish people want is a clear choice. They got
:27:33. > :27:37.their mandate to bring forward a referendum. But they haven't spelt
:27:37. > :27:39.out the details of when it will come and what it will be about. I
:27:39. > :27:43.think the critical thing with growing uncertainty in the business
:27:43. > :27:48.community, with people worried about a rigged referendum is that
:27:48. > :27:51.we get a clear question, a decisive answer and then we can get on with
:27:51. > :27:58.focusing on what people want us to focus on, the future of jobs and
:27:58. > :28:01.economy. We heard in that film that has will maybe be 2014, the date of
:28:01. > :28:06.the referendum. Ruth Davidson, the new leader of the Conservatives,
:28:06. > :28:09.has said that it Alex Salmond is not going to tell us, London and
:28:09. > :28:12.Westminster should decide when it should be. Would you support that?
:28:12. > :28:15.This is a matter for the First Minister. He is the one that
:28:15. > :28:20.brought forward the proposition. He has been very sketchy about the
:28:20. > :28:24.details of what he will do and when. We need to get that clarified. We
:28:24. > :28:28.have repeatedly asked for details of the referendum to be spelt out,
:28:28. > :28:33.for us to see a draft bill so that we can see what is proposed. My
:28:33. > :28:39.priority, as a double Democrat, we are reducing taxes for hard-working
:28:39. > :28:43.families across the country. We are trying to sort out the economy in
:28:43. > :28:46.the context of the terrible problems in the international
:28:46. > :28:52.economy. Meanwhile, we have uncertainty about what question
:28:52. > :28:56.will be asked and when. We want to see it sorted. The First Minister
:28:56. > :29:00.can do that. If devo max came about, you can get as far as you can go
:29:00. > :29:06.without devolution without having full independence. Doesn't the West
:29:06. > :29:11.Lothian question become even more acute? How can Danny Alexander the
:29:11. > :29:15.ruling as the Chief Secretary for Britain, for England, when in
:29:16. > :29:20.Scotland, in his constituency, next to no one will be affected? I don't
:29:20. > :29:23.think there is dispute anywhere in the UK that we need to look at the
:29:23. > :29:26.constitution of the whole United Kingdom. That, as a coalition
:29:26. > :29:31.government, is what we are doing with the coalition on the West
:29:31. > :29:35.Lothian Commission, question, Surrey, and we are looking ahead.
:29:35. > :29:39.Once the finances are sorted out, we are looking at how we are
:29:39. > :29:45.allocating funding around the United Kingdom. The comments in
:29:46. > :29:52.your report are increasing something very important, that devo
:29:52. > :29:57.max is about the UK at as a whole. Let's hope the whole of the country
:29:57. > :30:03.is involved in that debate. Alex Salmond joins us now from
:30:03. > :30:10.Aberdeenshire. Thanks for being The First Minister of Scotland Alex
:30:10. > :30:17.Salmond joins us now from Aberdeenshire.
:30:17. > :30:22.It is a wonderful day here. What did you make about the poll
:30:22. > :30:28.findings which suggest of the three options possible, independence is
:30:28. > :30:33.the least popular? The one thing you can tell from the
:30:33. > :30:41.opinion polls is in every single poll, the support for independence
:30:41. > :30:47.is increasing. One month ago, with a straight question on yes or No to
:30:47. > :30:54.independence, we got a majority of support for independence. But your
:30:54. > :30:57.poll says that the vast majority of people, 2-One, want to go much
:30:57. > :31:03.further than the Tory liberal coalition at Westminster are
:31:03. > :31:08.proposing. The appetite for change in Scotland is substantial and it
:31:08. > :31:14.is growing. You talked about that other poll, what was the sample,
:31:15. > :31:19.wasn't it 180 people only? No, I am talking about the Scottish poll in
:31:19. > :31:25.September which asked the question, do you support independence and it
:31:25. > :31:31.got majority. Unlike your poll by the same organisation which did not
:31:31. > :31:37.include all the options which gave that spread. Even your poll
:31:38. > :31:42.indicates that the vast majority of people in Scotland want far more
:31:42. > :31:46.economic power than the UK government is suggesting. I support
:31:46. > :31:50.independence but I also support the choices of the people of Scotland.
:31:50. > :31:56.I am not going to join the Westminster band like Michael Moore
:31:56. > :31:59.who want to foreclose on people's choices. When will you answer those
:31:59. > :32:06.questions Michael Moore set out about when the referendum is going
:32:06. > :32:12.to be and what the questions are going to be? We campaigned in the
:32:12. > :32:16.election, and said we would have a referendum on a straight question
:32:16. > :32:23.of independence and it would take place in the second half of this
:32:23. > :32:29.parliamentary term, with the option of asking a question on the devo
:32:29. > :32:34.max and financial responsibility. In response to that time scale, we
:32:34. > :32:40.got the most overwhelming mandate in Scottish political history, an
:32:40. > :32:45.absolute majority in a proportional representational system which had
:32:45. > :32:50.been designed to stop that have been. Having promised the people to
:32:50. > :32:55.hold a referendum on that timescale, why would I go back on that now and
:32:55. > :32:59.take orders from the Tory liberal coalition at Westminster? The
:32:59. > :33:05.people in Scotland are in charge of this process. A bit people do vote
:33:05. > :33:15.for independence, what would be the currency? We would keep stirring
:33:15. > :33:16.
:33:16. > :33:22.until such time it was an advantage to move elsewhere -- sterling.
:33:22. > :33:25.you still want to join the euro? There are good arguments, but only
:33:25. > :33:31.when it is stabilised and to Scotland's economic advantage and
:33:31. > :33:41.with the support of the people in a referendum. Until such time, then
:33:41. > :33:42.
:33:42. > :33:52.we do not move. The driver for economic independence is about
:33:52. > :33:55.
:33:55. > :34:01.controlling the fiscal powers and resources of Scotland. That is the
:34:01. > :34:11.argument in economic terms. There are many arguments on the economy,
:34:11. > :34:14.
:34:14. > :34:24.and beyond, on a fair and just society. We read in the newspapers
:34:24. > :34:25.
:34:26. > :34:32.about public sector strikes. Say you got independence 10 years
:34:32. > :34:39.ago, you would now marked correction that -- you would by now
:34:39. > :34:48.be part of the euro. RBS would be up in flames, with huge collective
:34:48. > :34:57.liabilities. Scotland would be in a worse state. Or in a better state
:34:57. > :35:02.than the UK, like Sweden, Finland, but incidentally, maybe we would
:35:02. > :35:05.have regulated our backs better, not like Westminster. Maybe we
:35:05. > :35:09.would be joining in with the International Committee to
:35:09. > :35:18.stabilise finances. If Scotland became an independent
:35:18. > :35:28.country, we would be the 6th most prosperous country in the OECD. Not
:35:28. > :35:32.
:35:32. > :35:39.just because of oral and gas resources. -- oil. Scottish
:35:39. > :35:44.renewables are also at a massive source of wealth.
:35:44. > :35:48.One of the interesting things here is, would you accept if devo max
:35:48. > :35:53.came in, you would need for fiscal autonomy and the only money spent
:35:53. > :35:58.in Scotland would be the only money raised in Scotland?
:35:58. > :36:04.Yes, the whole principle of devo max is you raise all funds in
:36:04. > :36:09.Scotland and are in charge of all expenditure. If you have for
:36:09. > :36:19.financial and fiscal responsibility, it replaces the current formula. We
:36:19. > :36:20.
:36:20. > :36:30.would be hoping for your advocacy and support. If... English people
:36:30. > :36:30.
:36:30. > :36:35.are pretty supported -- supportive. If they are really so concerned, in
:36:35. > :36:42.terms of subsidised Scots, why are they not fully supporting the
:36:42. > :36:47.campaign for financial independence?
:36:47. > :36:52.I want to ask who can vote in the referendum? You have taught about
:36:52. > :37:02.the Scottish nation. While Scottish people who live in England or
:37:02. > :37:09.abroad be able to vote? The mandate is from the people
:37:09. > :37:14.resident in Scotland, and includes people who are abroad but
:37:14. > :37:21.registered over the last 10 years. It is the taxation base of Scotland.
:37:21. > :37:26.It is whether you are contributing to Scotland as a country,...
:37:26. > :37:32.what about overseas voters? We do have registered overseas voters at
:37:32. > :37:37.present. This is not unusual or different. That is the basis on
:37:37. > :37:47.which we have a referendum on devolution in 1997. There is no
:37:47. > :37:50.
:37:50. > :37:56.real argument about that. Just as in other elections.
:37:56. > :37:59.The bank you very much. -- thank you very much.
:37:59. > :38:02.A little later in the programme, viewers in Scotland can hear what
:38:02. > :38:06.the new leader of the Scottish Conservatives Ruth Davidson makes
:38:06. > :38:16.of all that. For all of us, it's time for the Politics Show where
:38:16. > :38:16.
:38:16. > :38:20.Welcome to the London Politics Show. Coming up later, will new financial
:38:20. > :38:23.powers for local authorities revived Council House building in
:38:23. > :38:27.the capital? First, the reputation of the London
:38:27. > :38:32.School of Economics took a serious knock with its links to Colonel
:38:32. > :38:36.Gaddafi and his family and regime were revealed, leading to its
:38:36. > :38:41.director resigning. Did that all lead to a severing of the colleges
:38:41. > :38:47.links with Libya? No, in fact, there have been talks with the new
:38:47. > :38:53.regime about reinstating a training programme for civil servants.
:38:53. > :38:58.Seven years ago, Britain decided it would be better to beat with Libya
:38:58. > :39:08.than not. It was not just Labour who embraced this co-operation. The
:39:08. > :39:14.
:39:14. > :39:20.LSE also made friends with Colonel Britain played a role but in the
:39:20. > :39:25.end this is what the Libyans did themselves. Colonel Gaddafi was out
:39:25. > :39:31.enemy again and back in London. Two of the university's leading light
:39:31. > :39:41.resigned. We have learnt the LSE has met with a loo -- the new
:39:41. > :40:15.
:40:15. > :40:19.The there are concerns about their willingness or ability to stop
:40:19. > :40:29.human rights abuses by anti- Gaddafi forces beside -- despite
:40:29. > :40:38.
:40:38. > :40:44.condemning them. Eyebrows have been raised about the
:40:44. > :40:52.fact the LSE's main contact with the regime was with Mahmoud Jibril,
:40:52. > :40:58.the man who brokered the original deal. Gaddafi was just a figurehead,
:40:58. > :41:08.it was Mahmoud Jibril who gave the money. It is very odd, the whole
:41:08. > :41:09.
:41:09. > :41:19.thing. Just typical of the worst kind of academic, self serving, the
:41:19. > :41:38.
:41:38. > :41:48.worst kind of materialism. The LSE Could it be that the LSE's rush to
:41:48. > :41:53.
:41:54. > :42:00.enter into talks may worsen the Joining us, Lukas Sothus from the
:42:00. > :42:04.LSE student union. Robin Lamb. Were the LSE wrong in
:42:04. > :42:09.providing this training for civil servants under the Gaddafi regime?
:42:09. > :42:13.I do not think they were wrong, no. Questions that troubled the LSE
:42:13. > :42:17.management and led to the resignation were more about the
:42:17. > :42:24.acceptance of funding from the Gaddafi foundation run by Saif al-
:42:24. > :42:29.Islam Gaddafi. I think that is the real problem. It was worth �2
:42:30. > :42:34.million, you do not think that part of the relationship between the
:42:34. > :42:39.Libyan administration under Gaddafi with the LSE was a problem? I do
:42:39. > :42:45.not think so at all. I think the whole policy of normalisation which
:42:45. > :42:51.you should have mentioned, is in the interests of Britain and the
:42:51. > :42:53.whole of the world. It was to try to normalise relations and there
:42:53. > :42:58.were beneficiaries from this which were not necessarily part of the
:42:58. > :43:02.Gaddafi regime but the ordinary people of Libya.
:43:03. > :43:06.For given that, the former director and senior academic recognise the
:43:06. > :43:09.closeness of the links and relationship had become
:43:09. > :43:14.embarrassing and controversial, leading to their resignations. Are
:43:14. > :43:20.you surprised to see so soon, with the new regime, that discussions
:43:20. > :43:24.have started again about resuming links? As I said, adding up in the
:43:24. > :43:29.embarrassment should strictly have been about the course itself. It
:43:29. > :43:33.was more to do with the money taken from the Gaddafi Foundation. I am
:43:33. > :43:37.not at a ball against resuming discussions now up and I hope
:43:37. > :43:41.others will resume discussions with the new Libyan of a tease. They
:43:41. > :43:46.have had a revolution and need to build a new society and economy.
:43:46. > :43:49.There are a lot of good people in Libya and they deserve our support
:43:49. > :43:52.and the way to give that is through engagement.
:43:52. > :44:01.Do you have a problem with the opening discussions with the
:44:01. > :44:07.opponents, the new regime? The LSE is an educational institution, it
:44:07. > :44:11.is not a front for British foreign policy. Our universities should be
:44:11. > :44:16.wondering, did we go too far in these relations with Libya. And we
:44:16. > :44:23.talk about a new regime but there isn't a new regime in place, it is
:44:23. > :44:29.a transitional council. There have not been democratic elections yet.
:44:29. > :44:33.It is too rushed to engage in these deals. Robin Lamb says there wasn't
:44:33. > :44:37.a problem with the training provided for a civil service for
:44:37. > :44:41.government managers. If the National Transitional Council wants
:44:41. > :44:49.to turn into way government, it needs to get training from places
:44:49. > :44:53.There are many ways that Libyans will servants can get support from
:44:53. > :44:56.the international community. Our institution is an academic
:44:56. > :45:03.institution. We are not here to support or go against British
:45:03. > :45:07.foreign policy. That is not what we should be concerned with. Rather
:45:07. > :45:11.than taking a stance in Libya, we should follow what was said at the
:45:12. > :45:21.time. The late scholar Fred Halliday said this is extremely
:45:21. > :45:26.problematic. It is not worth the risk. If they are coming to the LSE
:45:26. > :45:29.for its expertise, to provide a trained civil service to insure
:45:29. > :45:36.transition and stability in that region, that's got to be a good
:45:36. > :45:41.thing? As I say, our institution is not run on the principles of
:45:41. > :45:44.providing executive education. It is provided on the basis that you
:45:44. > :45:49.apply to university, if you get admission then you go to university.
:45:49. > :45:52.I have spoken to plenty of Libyans at LSE, and there are lots of good
:45:52. > :45:56.Libyan people out there. But I think it is problematic for the
:45:56. > :46:04.institution. Given a history, given the track record of our institution,
:46:04. > :46:08.mired in so much controversy worth Sheikh Said, Satoshi Kanazawa, the
:46:08. > :46:13.academic that was in trouble last year. We have heard some emerging
:46:13. > :46:18.concerns about human rights abuses, potentially about the way that the
:46:18. > :46:21.law could develop. Don't you think at least the LSE has been very
:46:21. > :46:27.hasty in rushing into discussions, or looking like it might be
:46:27. > :46:30.interested in doing a new deal, with the new Libya? I think it will
:46:31. > :46:34.take time for any negotiations on any business relationship to come
:46:34. > :46:38.to fruition. It will be bound up with the formation of the new
:46:38. > :46:46.government. There are certainly a time to start those sorts of things.
:46:46. > :46:48.As you said earlier, it is very important to support the
:46:48. > :46:54.Transitional Council and the creation of the new government,
:46:54. > :46:58.which will take up to 24 months. The last thing we want is anarchy.
:46:58. > :47:03.On the human rights issue, I agree. They have been distressing
:47:03. > :47:07.violations on the side of the revolution. It has been a
:47:07. > :47:13.revolution. People's emotions have got high and that has carried them
:47:13. > :47:19.through against the regular forces. But it is more the position of what
:47:19. > :47:22.the Government has said, which is that it has undertaken to stop
:47:22. > :47:27.human rights abuses and to investigate those that have already
:47:27. > :47:30.been carried out. Robin Lamb in Brighton, thank you very much
:47:30. > :47:34.indeed. 30 years ago, Margaret Thatcher
:47:34. > :47:38.took away many council freedoms to build new homes and decide what to
:47:38. > :47:42.do with the money from rents and sales. From last -- from next year,
:47:42. > :47:45.much control over local housing finance is being restored to
:47:45. > :47:49.councils. A new report, commissioned by London Council,
:47:49. > :47:52.says the reforms could allow them to build a significant number of
:47:52. > :47:57.new homes for the first time in decades. We asked Michael Collins,
:47:57. > :48:04.who made a documentary on the history of housing, to assess what
:48:05. > :48:08.Castle Housing was introduced over a century ago to address the
:48:08. > :48:13.housing conditions of the working classes. Most notably in those
:48:13. > :48:20.darker streets of London, that were considered to be slum-like and
:48:20. > :48:24.unfit for human habitation. This estate, the Redbrook estate in
:48:24. > :48:28.Westminster, is one of the first to be built, just down the road from
:48:28. > :48:32.the Houses of Parliament. Council housing is again on the agenda to
:48:32. > :48:37.address the current potential housing crisis. In the 21st century,
:48:37. > :48:42.who is council housing for and what should it look like? This question
:48:42. > :48:46.of who it is for came up in the 1970s. It had largely been for the
:48:46. > :48:50.working classes and all that. Back row. But the Labour government
:48:50. > :48:54.brought in legislation in 1977 that made the homeless a priority.
:48:54. > :49:01.Suddenly, council housing was allocated on the basis of need.
:49:01. > :49:05.This created a system that was open to abuse. In the mid-70s, it was a
:49:05. > :49:10.state like this in south-east London, as well as Broadwater Farm
:49:10. > :49:14.in Scotland and nearby North Peckham estate. They were meant to
:49:14. > :49:20.exemplify everything that was good about council housing. Very quickly
:49:20. > :49:28.date became defined or stigmatised by crime, dysfunctional behaviour
:49:28. > :49:31.and dilapidation. So, how is council housing to be allocated in
:49:31. > :49:35.the 21st century? I put the question to the Government minister
:49:35. > :49:39.responsible. It is for any body that needs it, for as long as they
:49:39. > :49:44.need it in their time of need. I think it should be there as a
:49:44. > :49:49.springboard for people to meet their own aspirations. Quite often
:49:49. > :49:52.in this country, people would like to own their own homes, we should
:49:52. > :49:55.enable people to do that when they want to, have decent quality
:49:55. > :50:01.housing available when they don't want to. We need to ensure that
:50:01. > :50:04.social housing, which is limited by its very nature, is at least going
:50:05. > :50:08.to people that are genuinely vulnerable and need that support.
:50:08. > :50:12.But you have got a situation that is different from the past. You
:50:12. > :50:15.have people that can't get onto the property ladder and you've got
:50:15. > :50:19.people renting in the private sector. You've got this need for
:50:19. > :50:23.council homes as well. That goes across the board in somewhere like
:50:23. > :50:27.London, it is cross class, people of all different professions. How
:50:27. > :50:32.do you create a system based on need in that situation? You have to
:50:32. > :50:37.start with a six. Why is housing so unreasonably expensive in this
:50:37. > :50:40.country? Until we solve that problem, until we have housing on a
:50:40. > :50:43.long-term, sustainable footing, and when I used the word affordability,
:50:43. > :50:47.I don't just mean full council tenants, I mean for everybody, then
:50:47. > :50:52.we will not start to solve the problems. It goes beyond housing,
:50:52. > :50:57.it is the social and economic issue of having housing taking up too
:50:57. > :51:01.much of people's monthly expenditure. This is key to the
:51:02. > :51:05.history of castle houses. Two of the things that do find it were
:51:05. > :51:08.affordable rents and assured long- term tenancy. Do you see that
:51:08. > :51:13.applying to council housing in the future as well? Do I think we've
:51:14. > :51:17.got a much more mobile population. In which case, we need 21st century
:51:17. > :51:23.housing that achieves that goal. If we can do that as well by having
:51:24. > :51:28.flexibility. I don't think we are going to go back to monolithic
:51:28. > :51:31.estates. Maybe they were right for their time, in many cases they
:51:31. > :51:34.weren't even right then. I think we can live in a country where we have
:51:34. > :51:37.different kinds of houses, but there is no plaque outside saying
:51:38. > :51:43.that this is a social house, this is a home that has been purchased.
:51:43. > :51:47.They can look and feel very similar. 100 years ago, this street in
:51:47. > :51:52.south-east London would have been filled with tanneries and pubs,
:51:53. > :51:56.workshops and factories. It was an urban, working-class neighbourhood.
:51:56. > :51:59.Now you can see how much the demographic has changed. I feel
:51:59. > :52:03.quite passionate that council housing has a place in London, in
:52:04. > :52:08.the future. But I think it needs to move away from the kind of council
:52:08. > :52:11.housing that came up in the 60s and 70s. These expansive estates that
:52:12. > :52:17.were supposedly homes for the 21st century. But after 30 or 40 years
:52:17. > :52:20.there have been demolished. I think it needs to return to the original
:52:20. > :52:24.ideas of council housing at the beginning of the 20th century, the
:52:24. > :52:27.end of the 19th century. Estates like Millbank. In order to go
:52:27. > :52:34.forward into the future, I think that council housing needs to look
:52:34. > :52:39.to the distant past. Joining me now are a councillor
:52:39. > :52:46.from Lambeth Council, speaking for London Council, the organisation
:52:46. > :52:50.representing London authorities today. Eileen Short is the chair of
:52:50. > :52:56.Defend Council Housing. In their local Istanbul, local authorities
:52:56. > :53:03.having restored to them the rights to spend more of the receipts from
:53:03. > :53:09.rent and so on, how important could that be? The bitter positive change.
:53:09. > :53:12.For many years we had a system that wasn't very transparent and only
:53:12. > :53:15.made sense to a handful of people in the country. The Government
:53:15. > :53:21.collected rents, it awarded a subsidy to local authorities based
:53:21. > :53:29.on a notional debt figure. It was completely incomprehensible to most
:53:29. > :53:34.people. It was done on an annual basis. Tenants were not able to
:53:34. > :53:38.understand how finances was spent. The change that was first
:53:38. > :53:42.introduced by a Labour government, in its last year, and I'm pleased
:53:42. > :53:46.to see it has been adopted by the Conservative government, it enables
:53:46. > :53:50.us to see what we can do over a 30 year period. It enables us to
:53:50. > :53:56.borrow money that we could then invest in our council stock. We
:53:56. > :54:03.could also use it to build council homes. That will vary from bar to
:54:03. > :54:07.borough. In general, it is very positive. Is it nailed down, the
:54:07. > :54:13.details of how much you can borrow and from where? Are there limits on
:54:13. > :54:17.it? It is not all signed on the dotted line. One of the key things
:54:17. > :54:20.I want to get across today is that we are signing up to a 30 a
:54:20. > :54:27.programme of financial management, which is great, because it enables
:54:27. > :54:31.us to work with tenants to assess what their needs are. That is very
:54:31. > :54:35.important. But you can't suddenly change the resources. In Lambeth,
:54:35. > :54:39.one of the key bits of the package is the decent homes money. The
:54:39. > :54:41.Government has reduced that to two fifths of what we need and what we
:54:42. > :54:46.were promised by the Labour government. It is critical that we
:54:46. > :54:50.get that money so that it stacks up. Realistically, a crowded city, it
:54:50. > :54:55.is expensive to build as well. Realistically, what can we see
:54:55. > :54:59.happening? What effect could it have on waiting-lists? Hold on, I
:54:59. > :55:02.don't think that freedom, in itself, will necessarily generate a huge
:55:02. > :55:06.new council house building programme. It will enable some
:55:06. > :55:10.local authorities to do that. Other local authorities, such as the one
:55:10. > :55:15.I represent, will be putting a lot of the money into bringing up two
:55:15. > :55:19.ladies and standard the homes that we've got. Let's hear what Eileen
:55:20. > :55:23.Short thinks of this. Do you think it has been overstated? Is this
:55:23. > :55:25.somehow going to lead to a revolution or a resumption of
:55:25. > :55:33.serious housebuilding, providing enough housing for the people that
:55:33. > :55:38.want it? The 5 million people on housing waiting lists, I think we
:55:38. > :55:41.definitely need a big programme to build more council houses. We need
:55:41. > :55:46.1 million new council houses nationally over the next five or 10
:55:46. > :55:51.years. The problem, I think, with this package is that it has been
:55:52. > :55:55.set up to fail. We have already, in face of what they call self
:55:55. > :56:00.financing for councils, we have got councils saying that they are going
:56:00. > :56:03.to demolish over 1000 homes to reduce their debt. We've got
:56:03. > :56:09.Barking and Dagenham council saying they might privatise all of their
:56:09. > :56:14.council housing. This is all because it has been set up to fail
:56:14. > :56:19.because there is not enough money being put in. But local authorities
:56:19. > :56:23.make decisions locally about how much they can afford to borrow,
:56:23. > :56:28.what they need. That's got to be a good thing, to take central
:56:28. > :56:33.government out of the equation? Well, what the Government is doing
:56:33. > :56:37.is continuing the robbery of rents and the receipts from the sale of
:56:37. > :56:42.housing. It is building that into the debt figure, which they are
:56:43. > :56:46.dumping of local authorities. Even according to the Government's own
:56:46. > :56:50.research for self financing, the money that they need to put in to
:56:50. > :56:55.make this really sustainable for council housing, which we were
:56:55. > :56:59.promised, is about double what they are putting in. Is that right? The
:56:59. > :57:03.debt is being dumped on you? I do think that there are challenges in
:57:03. > :57:06.the model. But I do think it is an improvement from where we are at.
:57:06. > :57:09.Do we think that by giving councils the ability to be able to borrow,
:57:09. > :57:14.the ability to be able to manage their resources, they will be able
:57:14. > :57:19.to do a better job than national government? Yes, we do. But I don't
:57:19. > :57:22.think all of it will hinge on a council building programme. One of
:57:23. > :57:27.the key things is, and it has been hyped as such than it shouldn't
:57:27. > :57:32.have been, we have a big crisis in London with the availability of
:57:32. > :57:36.housing. Over the last 10 years, waiting lists have increased by 80%.
:57:36. > :57:39.That is a huge demand and it is not going to all come from council
:57:39. > :57:42.house building. It also needs to look at things like housing
:57:42. > :57:47.associations. What I am concerned about is the way that the
:57:47. > :57:50.Government has changed the way housing associations are able to
:57:50. > :57:53.gold. They are making it more likely that it will be tough for
:57:53. > :58:03.them in future. Some of the welfare reforms are going to have a
:58:03. > :58:13.devastating bat... We will be returning to this agenda. Thank you
:58:13. > :58:14.
:58:14. > :58:17.That is all we've got time for this week. We've heard a lot recently