:00:14. > :00:17.Show. We may have less than a week to save the euro. Merkel and
:00:17. > :00:19.Sarkozy meet tomorrow to try and prevent collapse. They are talking
:00:19. > :00:23.about individual eurozone countries having far less power over their
:00:23. > :00:27.own tax and spend. But what would that mean for us? The Energy
:00:27. > :00:30.Secretary wants a lot more of these. Tens of thousands more, with wind-
:00:30. > :00:35.turbines providing the electricity to run every car in the land. We'll
:00:35. > :00:40.ask him why. Do we want a Boris for Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and
:00:40. > :00:43.Liverpool? Next year we'll find out with Mayoral referendums in many of
:00:43. > :00:46.England's biggest cities. There will be 41 newly elected police
:00:46. > :00:56.commissioners too. But who is asking for all this extra local
:00:56. > :01:02.democracy? In London, what does the Autumn Statement mean for the
:01:02. > :01:06.capital? We know the Government is borrowing more, but what about us?
:01:06. > :01:16.Do ordinary Londoners need more protection from short-term lenders
:01:16. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:20.We'll be speaking to Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas
:01:20. > :01:23.Alexander about that crisis in the eurozone, to the Police Minister
:01:23. > :01:26.about those new commissioners next year, and to the Energy Secretary,
:01:26. > :01:29.Chris Huhne, about wind turbines and the big climate change talks in
:01:29. > :01:31.Durban. Joining me throughout the programme are Tim Montgomerie,
:01:31. > :01:36.editor of the website ConservativeHome, and by Anne
:01:36. > :01:41.McElvoy, Public Policy Editor of the Economist Magazine. But first
:01:41. > :01:44.the news with Tim Willcox. The Deputy Prime Minister Nick
:01:44. > :01:47.Clegg says the coalition would legislate if necessary to curb
:01:47. > :01:50.excessive executive pay. Mr Clegg said it was important that the
:01:50. > :01:54.private sector shared some of the economic pain, along with public
:01:54. > :01:57.sector employees facing pay caps and increased pension contributions.
:01:57. > :01:59.His comments came as Lord Hutton, who reviewed public sector pensions
:01:59. > :02:08.for the coalition, said the Government's proposals for the
:02:09. > :02:14.sector were perfectly credible. Terry Stiastny reports. Are week
:02:14. > :02:17.all in this together or are some more in it than others? Well the
:02:17. > :02:21.government tries to keep the costs of the public sector down, there is
:02:21. > :02:28.some concern those at the top of the private sector are earning more
:02:28. > :02:33.than they are worth. These are tough times for everybody, whether
:02:33. > :02:37.you are in the private or public sector, whether you are a taxi
:02:37. > :02:41.driver or the civil servant, and we need to make sure people in the
:02:41. > :02:47.public sector don't feel they are doing the heavy lifting. The public
:02:47. > :02:51.sector workers who went on strike do feel the heavy lifting is
:02:51. > :02:55.largely theirs. But Lord Hutton, the former Labour minister who
:02:55. > :02:58.wrote this Government's report on pensions reform, has warned change
:02:58. > :03:03.is necessary, or else he says we could be heading for the rocks as
:03:04. > :03:06.the economy has grown far less than we expected. The ground underneath
:03:06. > :03:13.the system that has changed radically and in the wrong
:03:13. > :03:16.direction, so we can't be sure the cost will fall over time. He called
:03:16. > :03:21.the Government's position a credible offer. For ministers, that
:03:21. > :03:27.was welcome. He is right that is the right thing to do, but his
:03:27. > :03:31.warning, given the nature of the economy about us and the Western
:03:31. > :03:35.world, made in the future mean this will not be enough so in truth this
:03:35. > :03:39.is a generous package for public sector workers. In the new year,
:03:39. > :03:44.the government will consider what action it could take on high
:03:44. > :03:52.executive pay, the question is whether giving more people a share
:03:52. > :03:55.of the pain will create the conditions for more long-term game.
:03:55. > :03:58.-- gain. Private health firms could be given access to NHS patient
:03:58. > :04:00.records and other NHS data, under plans being considered by the
:04:00. > :04:03.Government. In a speech tomorrow, the Prime Minister will say that
:04:03. > :04:05.giving researchers access to such information, which would be
:04:05. > :04:07.anonymous, would encourage more medical research. Campaigners fear
:04:07. > :04:10.such a move could undermine patient confidentiality but the Government
:04:10. > :04:13.says all necessary safeguards would be put in place to protect personal
:04:13. > :04:15.details. Voting has begun in Russia's
:04:15. > :04:18.parliamentary elections. The ruling United Russia party of the Prime
:04:18. > :04:20.Minister, Vladimir Putin, is expected to hold on to power. Even
:04:20. > :04:23.before the polls opened, independent election monitors were
:04:23. > :04:29.highlighting thousands of alleged violations of electoral law. Mr
:04:29. > :04:32.Putin has accused foreign powers of meddling in the election process.
:04:32. > :04:36.Two giant pandas on loan from China will arrive at Edinburgh Zoo this
:04:37. > :04:39.afternoon. They're the first to stay in a British zoo for 17 years.
:04:39. > :04:49.Tian Tian and Yang Guang are expected to arrive within the hour
:04:49. > :04:50.
:04:50. > :04:56.on a specially-chartered flight. Laura Bicker is at the zoo for us.
:04:56. > :05:01.A long journey and quite an expensive process, Laura? It is a
:05:01. > :05:07.very expensive process. The zoo will spend around �600,000 a year
:05:07. > :05:13.for these pandas and it will be �70,000 also in Bamber 0. It is no
:05:13. > :05:17.ordinary day here, everybody is very excited. These pandas were
:05:17. > :05:24.loaded on to the specially chartered aeroplane. As you can see
:05:24. > :05:28.from these pictures. That is expected to arrive at Edinburgh
:05:28. > :05:34.airport within the next hour, it will then get a police escort for
:05:34. > :05:37.these pandas and they will arrive by motorcade outside here to these
:05:37. > :05:44.gates at Edinburgh's it. The air will then be filled with the sound
:05:44. > :05:48.of bagpipes. They will be piping them into the enclosures. Hundreds
:05:48. > :05:52.of people are expected to line the streets to try to glimpse these
:05:52. > :05:58.pandas. There is a lot of hope riding on these pandas, not that
:05:58. > :06:02.they will just produced cubs, but also that they will help trading
:06:02. > :06:06.ties with China. Thank you. The former Brazil
:06:06. > :06:09.captain Socrates has died in hospital at the age of 57. Socrates,
:06:09. > :06:12.who was widely regarded as one of the greatest ever midfielders,
:06:12. > :06:15.played in two World Cups, winning 60 caps for his country between
:06:15. > :06:23.1979 and 1986. He graduated as a doctor of medicine during his
:06:23. > :06:27.playing career. That's it for now. There's more news on BBC One at six
:06:27. > :06:30.o'clock. Rarely has a week felt more in need
:06:30. > :06:33.of the sound of Eric Idle and the Monty Python team belting out
:06:34. > :06:37."always look on the bright side of life" because there are not a whole
:06:37. > :06:47.lot of reasons to be cheerful over the state of the UK economy, over
:06:47. > :06:53.what is happening in Europe. Can you remember a time like this? It
:06:53. > :06:58.genuinely feels a bit scary now. does feel scary now. The time it
:06:58. > :07:02.reminds me and a lot of people of is the 1980s. There was a feeling
:07:02. > :07:07.everything was being curtailed and we were getting a much more
:07:07. > :07:13.bitterly divided politics. All it took for me was seeing Billy Bragg
:07:13. > :07:18.re-emerging the other night on the BBC! It is even scarier because the
:07:18. > :07:23.eurozone, are back up system on the Continent, is in even more dire
:07:23. > :07:27.trouble than the British finances. That combination of having these
:07:27. > :07:35.things playing against each other is scary for politicians and
:07:35. > :07:42.everyone else. And the headline about a number of dates to save the
:07:42. > :07:49.euro and whatever, actually we think this time it might be true.
:07:49. > :07:53.My own feeling is that saving the euro might not be the right thing.
:07:53. > :07:57.There are very divergent economies in a very one-size-fits-all
:07:57. > :08:06.interest rate. I am not sure if Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy
:08:06. > :08:09.have a plan that will succeed, but more significantly I don't want to
:08:09. > :08:15.because the country should be free from having to live under one
:08:15. > :08:20.interest rate. A my gut would be with Tim on that one, I do think
:08:20. > :08:25.the price of breaking it up now... It was welded together so firmly
:08:25. > :08:28.and I think the price of breaking it up would be perhaps too high and
:08:28. > :08:33.we would therefore have to tolerate this fiscal union between France
:08:33. > :08:40.and Germany. That has huge implications for how David Cameron
:08:40. > :08:44.pursues his economy. How does this play out in terms of UK internal
:08:45. > :08:48.Conservative Party politics? Hearing Iain Duncan-Smith earlier
:08:48. > :08:54.about what it would require for there to be a referendum if the
:08:54. > :08:56.whole treaty negotiations get reopened. Nick Clegg earlier said
:08:56. > :09:00.there would not need to be a referendum if British sovereignty
:09:00. > :09:04.was not affected, then you have very different body language from
:09:04. > :09:10.Iain Duncan Smith suggesting a referendum would be needed if in
:09:10. > :09:15.some way Britain was affected. This is the problem. The referendum lock
:09:15. > :09:19.that has been passed, that is only triggered if British sovereignty is
:09:19. > :09:25.somehow eroded but most Euro- sceptics believe if you have fiscal
:09:25. > :09:30.union on the Continent, although we may not lose powers, this emergence
:09:30. > :09:33.of like an aircraft carrier, which we will be towed along by, it
:09:33. > :09:38.affects us so much that if we don't have referendum it won't work at
:09:38. > :09:42.all. Thank you for the moment. Christmas is coming, presents are
:09:42. > :09:45.being wrapped, and turkeys all over the country are getting more than a
:09:45. > :09:48.little bit nervous. According to one survey this week, we Brits are
:09:48. > :09:52.a satisfied bunch. Ask us if we're happy and apparently we give you a
:09:52. > :09:55.score of seven and a half out of 10. But that survey obviously didn't
:09:55. > :10:03.poll many economists! And this week we've had little in the way of
:10:03. > :10:08.tidings of comfort and joy. Behind every door of the advent calendar
:10:08. > :10:12.this week, it was bleak midwinter. On Monday the OECD warned that
:10:12. > :10:18.Britain would fall back into a recession. We live in very
:10:18. > :10:23.difficult times. I believe we can define this political moment. The
:10:23. > :10:27.situation in the euro area it is deteriorating. On Tuesday, the
:10:27. > :10:32.Chancellor admitted austerity would have to last for years, much longer
:10:32. > :10:37.than he had hoped. Our debt challenge is even greater than we
:10:37. > :10:43.thought because the boom was even bigger, the bust even deeper, and
:10:43. > :10:48.the effects were last even longer. Wednesday saw public sector workers
:10:48. > :10:54.out on strike. Not everyone was impressed. It looks like something
:10:54. > :11:00.of a damp squib. Come Thursday, it was the Bank of England's turn.
:11:00. > :11:05.Faced with a crisis of the euro area system, we are seeing the cost
:11:05. > :11:10.of financial instability first hand. So deck the halls with those of
:11:10. > :11:20.holly, and keep cheerful, but the message this Christmas is that
:11:20. > :11:25.economic midwinter is here to stay, and stay for quite some time.
:11:25. > :11:29.Very cheery and festive. The Energy Secretary, Chris Huhne is here,
:11:29. > :11:31.just before he sets off for a major round of climate change talks in
:11:31. > :11:34.South Africa. For the past two years, the coalition has been
:11:34. > :11:39.working on the premise you will do everything you can to clear the
:11:39. > :11:43.structural deficit by 2015, then go into election and set out your own
:11:43. > :11:47.agendas. When did you realise that wouldn't happen? The Autumn
:11:47. > :11:53.Statement had to take on board the things that have been happening in
:11:53. > :11:57.the global economy. We have seen an increase in gas prices, and we have
:11:57. > :12:01.had the happenings in the eurozone so the Treasury is projecting
:12:01. > :12:06.things on even beyond general elections. Unfortunately the
:12:06. > :12:11.economy and the numbers don't stop at the time the general election.
:12:11. > :12:16.Do you believed the figures? I used to be an economic forecaster and we
:12:16. > :12:20.are not very good at doing forecast one year ahead, let alone five
:12:20. > :12:27.years ahead, so I would be confident the world will not look
:12:27. > :12:33.like the Treasury thinks it will in 2015,/16. The reality is there are
:12:33. > :12:36.bound to be changes and a change in directions, as there always are,
:12:36. > :12:41.and we have to take into account what is happening. But the Treasury
:12:41. > :12:45.is right to make the best possible guest at the time and the markets
:12:45. > :12:49.expect that. They say with forecasting it is like a grenade,
:12:49. > :12:54.you throw it as far away as possible so you don't get hit by
:12:54. > :12:59.the shrapnel. Or you make a forecast so far away that no one
:12:59. > :13:03.will remember it. Do you think that is what they have done? Do you
:13:04. > :13:07.share the analysis this is best guess? No, I think we have a
:13:07. > :13:12.reasonable stab, but not a perfect one given what has happened over
:13:12. > :13:17.the last year, at what can happen in the near term, but when you look
:13:17. > :13:21.at five years away, you are basically trying to at least make
:13:21. > :13:25.sure your policies are consistent, that they add up, and there are
:13:25. > :13:30.going to be so many things that can change over that time that frankly
:13:30. > :13:35.it doesn't make sense having a row about something. Let me consider
:13:35. > :13:39.the implications for your party. How do you go into an election in
:13:39. > :13:44.2015 differentiating yourselves from the Conservatives when you
:13:44. > :13:49.have supported the same policies. OK, you can say it was a national
:13:49. > :13:53.emergency, but you will have the same projections going forward.
:13:53. > :13:57.Obviously there is a difference between projections in terms of the
:13:57. > :14:01.overall aggregate on borrowing and so forth, and the values of what
:14:01. > :14:06.you do in terms of meeting particular objectives which will be
:14:06. > :14:11.the balance between tax and spend, how you intend to spend particular
:14:11. > :14:16.pot of money, and that seems to leave an enormous field open for
:14:16. > :14:22.political disagreement, as we have seen. Danny Alexander has set you
:14:22. > :14:26.on the same course until 2017. the number of overall aggregate,
:14:26. > :14:30.first of all there is the question of whether they are likely to be in
:14:30. > :14:34.the ballpark by the time we get there, but also of there is the key
:14:34. > :14:38.issue which is the overall aggregate still leave an enormous
:14:38. > :14:43.field of different over how you intend to make the splits between
:14:43. > :14:47.tax and spend, how you intend to do that within spending, in particular
:14:47. > :14:51.projects, and the values of the parties will be very clearly on
:14:51. > :14:55.display in the run-up to the election. We will be fighting as an
:14:55. > :14:59.independent party with an independent programme and a very
:14:59. > :15:08.clear manifesto. What do you mean when you said George Osborne was a
:15:08. > :15:12.Conservative Chancellor delivering Exactly that. He has constituencies
:15:12. > :15:16.within the Conservative Party, Tim Montgomery will be one of them,
:15:16. > :15:21.that he wants to keep on board. he care about keeping you on board?
:15:21. > :15:29.He doesn't have to keep me on board, I have my own constituency is with
:15:29. > :15:32.the Liberal Democrats. The key point, surely, is that you, as a
:15:32. > :15:36.journalist, should judge people by what they do and not by what they
:15:37. > :15:43.say. If you look at the actions the Government has taken... So you did
:15:43. > :15:47.not like the speech? I think that the reality is that the
:15:47. > :15:50.announcement in the speech that there would be another �200 million
:15:50. > :15:55.to make a success of our pioneering Green Deal programme was very
:15:55. > :15:57.sensible. Do I think that we can solve financial debt problems today
:15:57. > :16:03.at the cost of creating environmental debt problems
:16:03. > :16:09.tomorrow, no, I do not. Did he consult with you before that
:16:09. > :16:14.passage in the speech? Government should never discuss
:16:14. > :16:19.what goes on within government. would always tell us if he had
:16:19. > :16:22.consulted you! You would have been absolutely on the same page...
:16:22. > :16:26.I come back to is the key point, if you look at what the Government is
:16:26. > :16:30.doing, the key issues that have been brought forward on renewable
:16:30. > :16:36.subsidies so that they can be clear support their, electricity market
:16:36. > :16:42.reform, a big thrusts towards low- carbon electricity. We have the
:16:42. > :16:46.support for clean heat. �800 million from the Treasury. An extra
:16:46. > :16:50.�200 million in the Autumn Statement. So there are these
:16:50. > :16:53.massive road-building programmes, which has led people to say that it
:16:53. > :16:56.is the least green friendly government they have seen. You are
:16:56. > :17:01.gliding over substantial achievements, including achievement
:17:01. > :17:05.that the Government has set out that our world firsts, a real
:17:05. > :17:10.pioneering programmes on energy- saving and on clean heat. They have
:17:10. > :17:13.been done nowhere else in the world. George has absolutely signed up and
:17:13. > :17:18.been very supportive on all of those. Judge people on what they do,
:17:18. > :17:22.not what they say. So you didn't like the words, but you like the
:17:22. > :17:30.actions. Good summary? That is not what I said, that is what you are
:17:30. > :17:37.saying. Or wind turbines, is it right we are going to go from 3000,
:17:37. > :17:42.up to 32,000? The Sunday Times's maths is out of date. We have set
:17:42. > :17:47.out what, on one scenario, would be a substantial increase. As it
:17:47. > :17:52.happens, we will continue to use very small turbines. The latest are
:17:52. > :17:57.seven megawatts, more than three times the size. The reality is that
:17:57. > :18:01.the actual number... Where would they go? A large number would go
:18:01. > :18:05.out to sea. Dogger Bank is a shallow area of the North Sea, the
:18:05. > :18:11.same size as Wales. If we can get serious amounts of electricity
:18:11. > :18:17.based in that area, we could enormously increase our ability to
:18:17. > :18:24.withstand the shocks we have had. Let me go on to cars... And let me
:18:24. > :18:29.finish this. Will we have electric cars by 2050? We will have to
:18:29. > :18:39.import nine out of �10 of our energy by 2050. If we don't see
:18:39. > :18:40.
:18:40. > :18:45.Wisley generate, from domestic By 2050, every car will be
:18:45. > :18:49.electric? Our vision is that the future of the economy will be an
:18:49. > :18:52.electric future. That is the way we know, from existing technology,
:18:52. > :18:56.that we can have a sustainable future without destroying the
:18:56. > :19:00.planet for our children, our grandchildren. Electric cars are
:19:00. > :19:05.probably the way forward. There are a lot of uncertainties and other
:19:05. > :19:11.possibilities like hydrogen fuel cells. A on Durban, earth do you
:19:11. > :19:15.think that there is anything concrete going to come out of it?
:19:15. > :19:22.Or is it just a lot of talk? All of these international negotiations
:19:22. > :19:26.take time. They always have done, this I think there is a potential
:19:26. > :19:30.big step forward. That we can get the world committed to coming up
:19:31. > :19:34.with a global, overarching treaty by 2015 so that we are all at least
:19:34. > :19:39.heading in the same direction with a clear road map, so that we get
:19:39. > :19:45.global emissions down by 2020. That is what the science is telling us
:19:45. > :19:49.is essential. I have to bring you in, because he brought you into the
:19:49. > :19:54.interview so much earlier wrong. What do you make of that? Chris,
:19:54. > :19:58.unfortunately, from my perspective, is one of the Cabinet's most
:19:58. > :20:03.effective ministers. Despite some of the shift in rhetoric, he is
:20:03. > :20:05.pursuing his green agenda relentlessly. My worry,
:20:05. > :20:09.particularly in the international context of climate change, is that
:20:09. > :20:12.we have had so many promises that these international conferences are
:20:12. > :20:19.going to deliver something. The only people that seem to do
:20:19. > :20:22.anything our countries like our own. That means domestic bill players in
:20:22. > :20:29.Britain are paying higher energy bills and the world's carbon
:20:29. > :20:33.footprint goes higher and higher. Two key points. Energy bills,
:20:33. > :20:37.because of the rise in gas prices, may be going up. But the impact of
:20:37. > :20:41.our policy will be to bring them down. Not in the short term, the
:20:41. > :20:45.contrary. Within three years we will actually been seeing, having
:20:45. > :20:49.dealt with the inheritance of the Labour government, we will be
:20:49. > :20:58.seeing the impact of the Government policy will be to reduce energy
:20:58. > :21:03.costs. According to the forecasts. Well, it is easier to forecast on
:21:03. > :21:08.that than it is the economy. The point about other countries not
:21:08. > :21:13.doing anything, a other countries say the same thing. Why does my
:21:13. > :21:17.country have to do things when nobody else's? We have over 70
:21:17. > :21:22.countries signed up to targets. Look at what the Chinese are doing.
:21:22. > :21:29.A quarter of the population are covered by low-carbon Soames. They
:21:29. > :21:36.have the six biggest renewable energy companies in the world. They
:21:36. > :21:41.have 10 kilometres of high-speed Let's look at the wind farm
:21:41. > :21:46.situation in Britain. You have a story today, and I don't agree with
:21:46. > :21:50.the calculations. If I can just get to the end of half descendants. You
:21:50. > :21:56.have a situation where you have a big expansion in wind farms. You
:21:56. > :21:59.make it sound as if wind and renewables, by extension, it is a
:21:59. > :22:03.guaranteed answer to energy supply, security in terms of dealing with
:22:03. > :22:07.energy sources in the outside world. I don't think it is that simple.
:22:07. > :22:12.There are still major doubts about what wind power and renewables can
:22:12. > :22:18.deliver. You have your argument on it being as effective as it could
:22:18. > :22:25.possibly be. We simply do not know that is the case. You are also
:22:25. > :22:29.I don't accept we are damaging the environment. There are
:22:29. > :22:35.uncertainties about the technology is and the global outlook for oil
:22:35. > :22:41.and gas prices. We need a portfolio of different options, to make sure
:22:41. > :22:50.we are not betting the barn. Wind and renewables are part of it, so
:22:50. > :22:53.his nuclear and clean coal. If we can use wind power, that is what
:22:53. > :22:58.the market will determine. What we mustn't do is to decide now, when
:22:58. > :23:02.there are still some substantial uncertainties about the future of
:23:02. > :23:06.this technology, that we are going to get everything on one thing.
:23:06. > :23:11.Chris Huhne, a final question before we go. A crucial week for
:23:11. > :23:15.the euro. Do you believe that it is going to survive intact, with all
:23:15. > :23:19.17 countries as members? The one key thing to learn about the
:23:19. > :23:24.lessons of the European Union, since it was started in the 1950s,
:23:24. > :23:28.is that it proceeds through crisis. There has never yet been a crisis
:23:28. > :23:34.where it has not come out with a resolution. Has there been a crisis
:23:34. > :23:37.like this one? There has, over the years. They have been at crisis
:23:37. > :23:41.around the exchange rate mechanism, all sorts. The key point is that
:23:41. > :23:45.there has never been a situation yet where the European Union has
:23:45. > :23:51.not emerged with a revolution. -- Resolution. It would be foolhardy
:23:51. > :23:55.to bet against that. The French President and German
:23:55. > :23:59.Chancellor are meeting tomorrow with the euro in crisis. What they
:23:59. > :24:03.will be discussing may decide whether the currency and even the
:24:03. > :24:07.whole European project lives or dies, even with Chris Huhne's
:24:07. > :24:10.cautionary words. They are expected to agree to a full fiscal union
:24:10. > :24:14.with central oversight of how each and every eurozone country raises
:24:14. > :24:18.its taxes and spends its national budget. Financial penalties would
:24:18. > :24:28.be put in place for any nation that breaks the rules. They hope that
:24:28. > :24:28.
:24:28. > :24:32.would be enough to calm the current storm in the market. Our current is
:24:32. > :24:37.the leader of a conservative group of MPs. Do you think that full
:24:37. > :24:43.fiscal union is the way to go? could well be. What we should never
:24:43. > :24:49.forget is that treaty change on this level could take several years.
:24:49. > :24:53.It has to be ratified in 27 member- state parliaments. Member countries
:24:53. > :24:57.will probably have a referendum on it. It will not solve the problem
:24:57. > :25:01.in the immediate future, it is a long way down the tracks. Angela
:25:01. > :25:05.Merkel clearly wants a treaty change. Do you support that? I am
:25:05. > :25:09.not sure it is completely necessary. As I said, it is not going to solve
:25:09. > :25:13.the problems in the short term. She clearly does want to pursue it.
:25:13. > :25:18.What Germany wants, Germany normally gets in the EU. It looks
:25:18. > :25:22.like the summit will be dominated with apocalyptic warnings of all
:25:22. > :25:26.the things that will happen if they don't reach an agreement. She will
:25:26. > :25:29.probably get the treaty change that she wants. But it is a long,
:25:29. > :25:33.complicated road before it is finally agreed. If you go down the
:25:33. > :25:39.option of a treaty change, does there have to be a UK referendum on
:25:39. > :25:43.it? Iain Duncan-Smith says anything that is a sizable change, you have
:25:43. > :25:47.to. Nick Clegg says it is not like that, it is only if we are giving
:25:47. > :25:50.substantial new powers. How do you read it? We will have to wait and
:25:50. > :25:56.see what it says. We are dealing with hypothetical tier. We don't
:25:56. > :26:01.even know what the proposals are yet. We had a pretty clear idea.
:26:01. > :26:05.will have to see the details, how much it affects the UK, what David
:26:05. > :26:09.Cameron manages to achieve in terms of negotiations. I hope he will
:26:09. > :26:13.manage to build in a number of safeguards for the EU. It has a
:26:13. > :26:15.number of potential problems for the UK. We want to see a
:26:15. > :26:20.repatriation of powers in areas that can help the economy grow. It
:26:20. > :26:24.is a huge hypothetical question. In principle, I have no problem with
:26:24. > :26:28.the referendum. I think we have had far too few referendums. If there
:26:28. > :26:33.had been more when the euro was established, not least in Germany
:26:33. > :26:37.itself, we might not have the same problems we do now. How do you see
:26:37. > :26:41.fiscal union affecting the UK? main problem for the UK is the
:26:41. > :26:46.corpsing aspect of it. If the countries of the euro-zone draw
:26:46. > :26:53.together, if they do vote as a block in the European Union, that
:26:53. > :26:57.is a qualified majority. They could out to vote the UK. We are already
:26:57. > :27:00.seeing a number of quite blatant attacks on the City of London, on
:27:00. > :27:05.financial services. However unpopular they might be in the UK,
:27:05. > :27:08.they are a critical part of the UK economy. There are lots of people
:27:08. > :27:12.with an agenda to transfer that business to Paris and Frankfurt. We
:27:12. > :27:17.have to protect our position in that, as well as in areas that are
:27:17. > :27:21.key for our growth. How do you do that when you are marginalised?
:27:21. > :27:25.You're not, of course. David Cameron has a detail. That is the
:27:25. > :27:31.thing about negotiations. -- AVG Cho Seung-Hui. All national
:27:31. > :27:35.parliaments have to approve. The democratic problems that are going
:27:35. > :27:39.to be caused by this, and what the Germans are talking about doing is
:27:39. > :27:42.imposing treaty change that will say that every tax decision, every
:27:42. > :27:47.spending decision, every fiscal policy is not set in the individual
:27:47. > :27:57.country but by a committee in Brussels, presumably dictated to by
:27:57. > :27:57.
:27:57. > :28:00.Germany. It has tremendous democratic implications. What about
:28:00. > :28:05.elections in those countries? It will not be long before an
:28:05. > :28:12.extremist party puts forward an alternative vision, and then you
:28:12. > :28:14.will see proper break-up. Thank you so much for be with us. I am joined
:28:15. > :28:19.by the shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander. Thank you for
:28:19. > :28:25.being with us. If you have the 17 countries that pursue full fiscal
:28:25. > :28:29.union, what are the national governments of that country for?
:28:29. > :28:33.Let's see what is proposed that the European summit. We have a very
:28:33. > :28:38.strong national interest in making sure that the single market, the 27
:28:38. > :28:44.members of the European countries in the single market, continue to
:28:44. > :28:50.be the body that makes decisions about British exports and have a
:28:50. > :28:52.profound effect on British jobs. As we have seen from the comments of
:28:52. > :28:56.Iain Duncan-Smith and Nick Clegg, we have a coalition that is not
:28:56. > :29:00.talking to each other, never mind talking to European partners, at a
:29:00. > :29:05.critical point for the economy and the future of Europe. But the point
:29:05. > :29:09.is, let's decide what it looks like before we work out if we need a
:29:09. > :29:13.referendum? I think people will struggle to reconcile the language
:29:13. > :29:17.we have heard from Iain Duncan- Smith and Nick Clegg. That is not a
:29:17. > :29:21.source of joy, it is a source of concern to me. One of the reasons
:29:21. > :29:25.Britain is in the position it is in at the moment is because David
:29:25. > :29:28.Cameron is obliged to spend more time negotiating with backbenchers
:29:28. > :29:32.than European partners. I welcome the fact he was in Paris. I welcome
:29:32. > :29:37.the fact that, even at this late hour, there are discussions with
:29:37. > :29:42.European partners. The stakes are extremely high for Britain's it
:29:42. > :29:47.national interests. There have been crisis in the European Union before,
:29:47. > :29:55.if you look at history, they tend to get sorted. Chris Huhne seemed
:29:55. > :29:59.pretty sanguine. He was saying that the European Community grows
:29:59. > :30:03.through crisis. But even the greatest advocates of the European
:30:03. > :30:09.Union's nerve would be tested by what we are witnessing. We have a
:30:09. > :30:14.situation where the European economy is minutes from midnight.
:30:14. > :30:17.We need a European summit that, for once, actually get ahead of the
:30:18. > :30:22.markets rather than being behind the markets. That is why I think
:30:22. > :30:25.change is inevitable in the eurozone. It is overdue. I hope we
:30:25. > :30:29.see a comprehensive enough package emerging from European leaders that
:30:29. > :30:33.it will command confidence, rather than lose confidence. That involves
:30:33. > :30:43.the political support being given to the European Central Bank, that
:30:43. > :30:44.
:30:44. > :30:49.But there is a fundamental problem that Angela Merkel and Nicolas
:30:49. > :30:53.Sarkozy don't see it in the same way. My sense is they are moving
:30:54. > :30:57.closer together. I think there will be a joint paper produced by the
:30:57. > :31:03.French and the Germans anticipating the conference that takes place at
:31:03. > :31:07.the end of the next week, and that will look at how you make sure
:31:07. > :31:10.there is broader oversight, but that carries significant
:31:10. > :31:16.implications in terms of the broader functioning of the European
:31:16. > :31:20.Union. We do support a referendum if there was a treaty change?
:31:20. > :31:23.law is there will be a referendum if there is significant change in
:31:23. > :31:28.powers for Britain giving up powers, but let's see what emerges next
:31:28. > :31:32.week. I can see how fiscal union might solve the problems going
:31:32. > :31:36.forward for the eurozone, but that doesn't deal with the immediate
:31:36. > :31:41.problem that we have a Continent burdened by debt and countries on
:31:41. > :31:45.the periphery like Greece that are uncompetitive within the eurozone
:31:45. > :31:49.and I can't see that changing unless they have the option of
:31:49. > :31:59.devaluation. Is it the Labour Party's position that the eurozone
:31:59. > :32:05.has to stay as one single currency area? Our judgment is it is up for
:32:05. > :32:09.them to make those decisions. Issues of Greece leaving the
:32:09. > :32:14.eurozone have to be resolved by the countries themselves but it is in
:32:14. > :32:17.Britain's interest that it does resolve these problems.
:32:17. > :32:26.Schadenfreude is not a good economic strategy for Britain at
:32:26. > :32:30.the moment. The Labour Party has been broadly EU comic even went
:32:30. > :32:33.through a period of being brought me he knew, and you seem to be
:32:33. > :32:43.suggesting a more sceptical tone without coming out directly and
:32:43. > :32:45.
:32:45. > :32:50.saying that. We always thought economics should lead the politics.
:32:50. > :32:54.We should maintain a position that economics leads the politics. More
:32:54. > :32:58.broadly, we need a clear-headed sense of where Britain's national
:32:58. > :33:04.interest is, and I think it is served being part of the European
:33:04. > :33:10.Union. The way we can advance global public goods, whether it is
:33:10. > :33:14.climate change, security, global poverty, Britain's interests are
:33:14. > :33:18.amplified by being part of the European Union, but we also want to
:33:18. > :33:24.be a part of the single market. It is crucial David Cameron can do
:33:24. > :33:28.what he can to secure a global market, because to shrink our home
:33:28. > :33:33.market is just daft. Are you sure you can get away with being in a
:33:33. > :33:37.single market if you're not in the fiscal union? I believe we need to
:33:37. > :33:47.see the endurance of the single market. The break-up of that would
:33:47. > :33:48.
:33:48. > :33:53.be as disastrous for Britain as would a break-up of Europe. We have
:33:53. > :33:58.heard about the caucus in aspect, how can you stop that? So unthought
:33:58. > :34:02.is being given to an emergency brake procedures before next
:34:02. > :34:04.weekend so you could have issues relating to financial services that
:34:04. > :34:09.largely affect the City more than any other part of the European
:34:09. > :34:12.economy, if they are significant enough being graduated up to a
:34:12. > :34:15.government decision, so there are various ways you can work to
:34:15. > :34:21.protect Britain's national interest but that requires a prime minister
:34:21. > :34:25.who knows what his premises are. My genuine fear it is that if you
:34:25. > :34:29.maintain the position that you are overriding national interest as the
:34:29. > :34:33.repatriation of powers, not only would you likely be unsuccessful
:34:33. > :34:38.but you would also miss the opportunity to get the guarantees
:34:38. > :34:41.the British economy needs. Thank you.
:34:41. > :34:49.Later in the programme, the political impact of pandas - all
:34:49. > :34:53.will be explained, but first the Politics Show near you.
:34:53. > :34:57.Hello and welcome to the London part of the Politics Show, where
:34:57. > :35:02.coming up later - Christmas comes but once a year but for some their
:35:02. > :35:07.debts go on and on. We look at the rise of short-term credit lenders
:35:07. > :35:11.and loan sharks. It has been quite a week for the economy. The Autumn
:35:11. > :35:15.Statement, thousands protesting on the streets of the capital, and
:35:16. > :35:19.dire warnings about rapidly lowering living standards. There
:35:19. > :35:24.were promises about future transport improvements and a
:35:24. > :35:29.handout to soften the mayor's planned fare rises, but where else
:35:29. > :35:37.was there to here? Perhaps Greg hands, Conservative MP for Chelsea
:35:37. > :35:42.and Fulham can provide it. You had seen the statement, presumably,
:35:42. > :35:46.before it was delivered? Not much before. Did you expected to be
:35:46. > :35:51.quite so gloomy? Actually, I think it is quite good news for London,
:35:51. > :35:55.in terms of some of the extra spending and in terms of the good
:35:55. > :35:59.provision for London pensioners, for those having to pay petrol tax,
:35:59. > :36:02.and also keeping interest rates down, doing everything the
:36:03. > :36:07.government can to make sure businesses can borrow at a
:36:07. > :36:12.reasonable rate and that mortgage rates are kept down. Do you think
:36:12. > :36:18.that is how Londoners feel? The Autumn Statement? We will have to
:36:19. > :36:23.see. The overall package has turned out to be good for London. It is a
:36:23. > :36:29.difficult set of circumstances at the moment with the economy, which
:36:29. > :36:34.obviously the Office for budget responsibility forecast showed the
:36:34. > :36:39.economy slowing for Europe and the rest of the world, but within that
:36:39. > :36:44.context London has done very well. How do you think Londoners will
:36:44. > :36:53.feel about household income going down almost to record levels? The
:36:53. > :36:58.last decade we have been 2016 hearing about? Clearly these are
:36:58. > :37:02.difficult times and we haven't tried to avoid that question. Most
:37:02. > :37:09.Londoners will realise this is a follow-on effect from the recession,
:37:09. > :37:13.the deepest recession this country had been the year's 2008/2009, and
:37:13. > :37:18.when we became the government last year we inherited the largest
:37:18. > :37:21.budget deficit in the G20. Most Londoners will recognise the
:37:21. > :37:25.economic inheritance that Labour passed on makes our job very
:37:25. > :37:30.difficult. They might think that, they also know you felt you could
:37:30. > :37:36.get a lot of the pain out of the way in four years, but now we know
:37:36. > :37:41.it will be much longer. And a 1% pay rise Cap for public sector
:37:41. > :37:47.workers in a couple of years' time, projections of tens of thousands
:37:47. > :37:52.more public sector workers out of work, really? We tried to make sure
:37:52. > :37:57.some of the savings are shared out equally, and that everybody shares
:37:57. > :38:05.some of the paint and some of the game. Do you think we have shared
:38:05. > :38:09.it? Yes, we have the new bank levy raising 2.5 million from the banks,
:38:09. > :38:15.there is the 50p tax rate, and others measures to make sure people
:38:15. > :38:20.right across the income curve will be sharing it out. Are they paying
:38:20. > :38:25.as much as, for instance, those children who will not get the rise
:38:25. > :38:34.in the child tax credit? The child tax credit is still rising, it just
:38:34. > :38:39.won't be rising as fast or by as much as we had projected last year.
:38:39. > :38:43.It will be in line with inflation, which will still be a real benefit
:38:43. > :38:48.for Londoners in difficult circumstances. What is the idea
:38:48. > :38:53.behind, and how convinced are you, that this can work and generate
:38:53. > :38:56.growth in the economy? These ideas of infrastructure projects?
:38:56. > :39:01.Infrastructure is very important for London to make sure it keeps
:39:02. > :39:06.its competitiveness as a world city, that we keep London moving, that we
:39:06. > :39:10.make sure London has got the right transport in place, and schools
:39:10. > :39:16.will also be very important. will look at that in some detail
:39:16. > :39:20.now, about that Investment. Was it as presented a shot in the arm for
:39:20. > :39:25.London? Investing, building, creating jobs? The main focus was
:39:25. > :39:30.on the river, or have to get across it. In the 20 miles between
:39:30. > :39:35.Kingston Bridge and the City, there are 19 ways to drive across the
:39:35. > :39:40.Thames, but then it all comes to a halt. Unfortunately for people in
:39:40. > :39:45.East London, they are not so lucky. Between Tower Bridge and the
:39:45. > :39:50.Dartmouth tunnel, there are no bridges whatsoever over a 10 mile
:39:50. > :39:56.stretch of river. The links their art are slightly random. The best
:39:56. > :40:00.bet by car are these tunnels, both notorious for delays. Two ft Dolls
:40:00. > :40:05.at Greenwich and Woolwich are both being refurbished, and the
:40:05. > :40:09.Greenwich ferry runs once every 10 minutes. Next year, east London as
:40:09. > :40:17.slightly eccentric river crossings will be joined by another. The
:40:17. > :40:22.mayor of London's cable-car across the Thames put on show for the
:40:22. > :40:27.first time this week. Transport for London reckon they will take about
:40:27. > :40:30.500 passengers a day on these things. They are pretty cool on the
:40:31. > :40:34.inside and you get a great view crossing the Thames but are they
:40:34. > :40:39.any use for a business that need to transport a large amount of
:40:39. > :40:44.freight? The Chancellor's Autumn Statement this week appears like it
:40:44. > :40:48.could be good news if that is what you want. We will work with the
:40:48. > :40:53.mare on options for other new river crossings... He made reference to
:40:53. > :41:01.two potential Crossens, one in the east of the City and another just
:41:01. > :41:06.outside it, possibly at Dartford, but both projects have been opposed.
:41:06. > :41:10.According to Labour, it is hardly an announcement at all. There is
:41:10. > :41:13.very little in this statement for London, and I think this is a
:41:13. > :41:18.window-dressing announcement. He is trying to make it look like There
:41:18. > :41:22.is more for London but there is nothing. This was meant to be the
:41:22. > :41:26.Thames Gateway Bridge. Ken Livingstone's solution to the
:41:26. > :41:31.problem, but the six-lane road bridge would have been noisy and
:41:31. > :41:37.polluting, and was unpopular with some locally. The plan was scrapped,
:41:37. > :41:43.although he has now committed to another crossing at the same point.
:41:43. > :41:48.But when the mayor scrapped this bridge, old with it went the
:41:48. > :41:50.funding. The project could have been paid for. The difficulty is
:41:50. > :41:55.now but the mayor and the Government are committed to
:41:55. > :42:01.building a new crossing, there is very little detail on where the
:42:01. > :42:04.cash for that will come from. understand their issues with
:42:04. > :42:08.private finance initiative, that is how it would have been financed,
:42:09. > :42:12.and if you look at other projects like the DLR, they are not
:42:12. > :42:16.delivering what they should have done and they are costing the
:42:16. > :42:21.taxpayer more. It was right to look at the finance, but to scrap some
:42:21. > :42:24.of these major projects was a huge mistake. Another Road Bridge in
:42:24. > :42:28.East London have some sort has been in the pipeline for about 50 years
:42:28. > :42:34.but some will question whether this announcement will move us any
:42:34. > :42:43.closer to building one. Joining us now, the deputy mayor
:42:43. > :42:53.for Transport. Some felt it was fairly flimsy, these transport
:42:53. > :42:55.
:42:55. > :42:59.improvements, apart from the first themselves which are quite fat. --
:42:59. > :43:03.the trouble first themselves. Anybody who lives in Newham or
:43:03. > :43:10.Bexley knows exactly what you are talking about, that the absence of
:43:10. > :43:14.a river crossing is cataclysmic for regeneration. Transport is almost
:43:14. > :43:21.the secondary objective. We could have had the bridge completed by 20
:43:21. > :43:24.did team if we had gone for that in 2008. When you look at the road,
:43:24. > :43:30.where it would have been, you understand why thousands of locals
:43:30. > :43:35.would have died in a ditch, opposed to that. Did you back the decision
:43:35. > :43:40.when you were there? That was ages ago, nothing to do with me.
:43:40. > :43:45.probably thought it was a good idea, back when. I didn't get involved.
:43:45. > :43:51.How much further forward are we? There is no money on the table, but
:43:51. > :43:56.the Chancellor said he would work with you. The key thing for these
:43:56. > :44:00.projects is political will. You can spend all the time in the world
:44:00. > :44:04.consulting on it, developing finance packages. If you look at
:44:04. > :44:08.the Northern Line extension that has been proposed, that is one of
:44:08. > :44:13.the big regeneration opportunities in London, but unless people
:44:13. > :44:19.actually want to build it, we can spend a lot of time coming up with
:44:19. > :44:22.finance packages... I will come on to that. These are the 48 words
:44:22. > :44:28.from the Chancellor - right here in London, we will work with the mayor
:44:28. > :44:32.for options on all the new river crossings, for example on
:44:32. > :44:36.Silvertown, and we will support the extension of the Northern Line to
:44:36. > :44:40.Battersea in partnership with the private sector. This could bring
:44:40. > :44:45.25,000 new jobs to the area. The Chancellor was there on Monday with
:44:45. > :44:50.the mayor, saying the developers would pay three-quarters of a
:44:50. > :44:54.billion pounds of the cost for these two new tube stations on the
:44:54. > :44:59.Northern Line. Two days later, the developers heading for
:44:59. > :45:04.administration. In terms of the overall development, this is
:45:04. > :45:07.fantastic news. What about that though? Doesn't it show the
:45:08. > :45:11.difficulty immediately? The Chancellor says this will be built
:45:11. > :45:18.by the private sector developer, Owen lots of money, looks like
:45:18. > :45:23.have to see on that, but the important thing is this is a
:45:23. > :45:28.fantastic opportunity. You mentioned twenty-five 1000 jobs,
:45:28. > :45:31.also 16,000 new homes that would be built, making sure the central
:45:31. > :45:36.government support working with Boris Johnson, making sure the
:45:36. > :45:42.central government does what it can. The aspiration sounds fantastic.
:45:42. > :45:45.How could the Chancellor go to the site like this for a photo
:45:45. > :45:50.opportunity and claim it as the kind of thing the government is
:45:50. > :45:54.doing? When there is no central government money going into it.
:45:54. > :46:03.There is a lot of central government money going into the
:46:03. > :46:07.Into that project. Specifically, there is no central government
:46:07. > :46:12.money. It is often showing the political will, showing that the
:46:12. > :46:17.Government will support this, is supporting this... How important is
:46:17. > :46:22.that to you? Political will. A Chancellor there with a hard hat,
:46:22. > :46:25.next to Boris Johnson in a hard hat. Would you like the money?
:46:25. > :46:31.Battersea development that you talked about is only part of quite
:46:31. > :46:33.a lot of activity in that area. you're not going to tell me that
:46:33. > :46:39.Battersea Power Station is and the single most important part, and
:46:39. > :46:42.they were paid for the most part of it? Do you agree? Yes. But it is
:46:42. > :46:45.quite counter-intuitive. That project, with that particular
:46:45. > :46:50.structure collapsing, it is a good thing to push that forward. You
:46:50. > :46:57.don't want something languishing for years, and there has been a
:46:57. > :47:00.succession of those problems. point is, the significance of that
:47:00. > :47:03.and the Autumn Statement for Londoners, that was that George
:47:03. > :47:07.Osborne could be photographed next to Boris Johnson and they say, we
:47:07. > :47:10.want this to happen sometime? is in place for the Northern Line
:47:11. > :47:15.extension is a detailed package that has been discussed between the
:47:15. > :47:18.boroughs, the mayor and government. What is missing, it is not the case
:47:18. > :47:24.that it is all coming from the developer, it is a complex
:47:24. > :47:27.financing structure. What is missing is that we need a few tools,
:47:27. > :47:29.financing mechanisms, and that is where we are looking for the
:47:29. > :47:33.Government to come forward. could happen anyway, it is nothing
:47:33. > :47:39.to do with a way out of the financial or economic difficulties
:47:39. > :47:42.we have got, is it? We have been waiting for some of those tools for
:47:42. > :47:46.a couple of years. If we can get movement, that will be fantastic.
:47:46. > :47:51.One thing that is undeniable is that they raise more money to
:47:51. > :47:55.soften the blow of what was going to be fare rises. 2% above
:47:55. > :48:00.inflation will now be 1%. What difference will that make? It is
:48:00. > :48:07.quite significant on a certain product in particular. If you look
:48:07. > :48:11.at buses, the fare rises will be slightly below plus one. If you
:48:11. > :48:15.look at the weekly bus pass, that a lot of low-income workers used, we
:48:15. > :48:21.have managed to reduce that significantly. For the first time,
:48:21. > :48:26.you are putting up a bus fare by 10 -- 5p. It has always been 10 before.
:48:26. > :48:30.Why five? We have been trying to spread the benefits across so
:48:30. > :48:34.everybody can benefit. Why haven't you done that before, a five pence
:48:34. > :48:40.increase? There is a long story behind that. A fair has to be
:48:40. > :48:45.offered at a 50% discount, for example, if it is �1.35, you get
:48:45. > :48:49.into all kinds of complicated calculations. But he didn't do that
:48:49. > :48:54.last year, or the year before. Has it got, be honest, has it got
:48:54. > :48:57.anything to do with the fact there is an election next year. We really
:48:57. > :49:01.have tried to spread that funding from government, which has enabled
:49:01. > :49:05.us to protect every penny of investment across the packages. We
:49:05. > :49:08.were conscious that buses are especially used by... Did the head
:49:08. > :49:14.of the Commission for Transport suggest the five pence increase was
:49:14. > :49:18.sensible? This discussion happens between TfL and the mayor. TfL puts
:49:18. > :49:22.forward a proposal for how that money is going to be spread out so
:49:22. > :49:26.that everybody in London can benefit. How welcome do you think
:49:26. > :49:29.it will be? Did the Chancellor do this because of the anger there is
:49:29. > :49:35.about the fare rises on the railways up and down the country?
:49:35. > :49:38.He just felt he had to bring London in line? Or is this actually to
:49:38. > :49:44.help Boris Johnson? You'll know that is where Ken Livingstone, his
:49:44. > :49:48.opponent, will try to make the most hey, about the effect of
:49:48. > :49:52.Conservatives running it. I think it is designed to help Londoners in
:49:52. > :49:56.general. They are facing a loss of fixed cost pressure on things like
:49:56. > :50:03.energy bills, transport bills. We wanted to do something, in a very,
:50:03. > :50:08.very import of the -- important part of the economy, to bring costs
:50:08. > :50:13.down for regular people. My constituency has more commuters in
:50:13. > :50:17.than any other constituency in Britain. It will be hard pressed
:50:17. > :50:22.people that will welcome it. Annual travel cards, they are still going
:50:22. > :50:26.to have to pay �120 per year? will not be going up as much as
:50:26. > :50:32.previously thought. This will keep it down for Tim or three years? You
:50:32. > :50:36.agree? The whole cost of reducing affairs has been covered. But two
:50:36. > :50:40.or three years. What happens then? You are going to put them up even
:50:40. > :50:46.more to compensate for what will be removed in two or three years'
:50:46. > :50:49.time? What we are proposing, with RPI plus 1%, it is a far more
:50:49. > :50:53.realistic proposition than that being put forward by Ken
:50:53. > :50:56.Livingstone. He says he wants to cut fares, but he has and said how
:50:56. > :51:00.he would pay for it. But you recognise that Boris Johnson has
:51:00. > :51:04.said, supported by you, supported by Transport for London, that he
:51:04. > :51:09.would not alter that trajectory affairs, it was needed for
:51:09. > :51:13.investment. The first sign of trouble, you have distorted that by
:51:13. > :51:16.putting some money back in? I think central government recognised this
:51:16. > :51:20.was an important thing to do because of the pressures facing
:51:20. > :51:25.Londoners. Contrast that with somebody that has recklessly gone
:51:25. > :51:28.out to pledge a completely unfunded, huge cut in tube fares, which he
:51:28. > :51:32.knows he will not be able to deliver, I think that shows the
:51:32. > :51:38.contrast between Boris Johnson, a sensible approach to running London,
:51:38. > :51:44.and Ken Livingstone, going back to the past. A final thought, at this
:51:44. > :51:48.time of particular financial trouble, is it right for fare
:51:48. > :51:55.payers to be paying more, well above inflation, or a above-
:51:55. > :52:00.inflation still, for improvements tomorrow, instead of central
:52:00. > :52:04.government paying for it? It it's a difficult message. I take the Tube
:52:04. > :52:06.every day. I understand why people find that difficult. I'm amazed how
:52:06. > :52:11.well people understand and are prepared to accept that everyone
:52:11. > :52:14.knows there is unprecedented amounts of people on the Tube. We
:52:14. > :52:19.have never seen so many people on the buses. They've got no choice,
:52:19. > :52:22.they had to get round. A final thought? There is huge government
:52:22. > :52:26.investment going in. One of the first things George Osborne decided
:52:26. > :52:30.was to put the money in for Crossrail and to put the money in
:52:30. > :52:34.for the Tube improvements at a time when central government inherited a
:52:34. > :52:37.situation where the public finances were in a total mess. We made sure
:52:37. > :52:45.that Crossrail and the Tube improvements were protected and
:52:45. > :52:50.It may be a bleak economic forecast, but short term, up to Christmas, at
:52:50. > :52:53.least, spending is expected to rise. For many people, that might only be
:52:53. > :52:57.possible because without much credit for coming from banks they
:52:57. > :53:01.are turning to other sources of finance.
:53:01. > :53:04.To get extra seasonal cash, it can be very tempting to take up the
:53:04. > :53:08.offers that many high-street loans, credit and pay-day companies offer.
:53:08. > :53:11.Louise took out a short-term loan and struggled with my repayment
:53:11. > :53:16.rates. She eventually paid it off, but then found herself being
:53:16. > :53:19.bombarded with offers from similar companies. Christmas is one of the
:53:19. > :53:23.worst times. If you have children, you on your own, you don't have
:53:23. > :53:27.money coming from other places, you've not got anywhere to turn to.
:53:27. > :53:31.You cannot go to the bank and you have a letter saying, borrow �500
:53:31. > :53:37.instantly. You are going to say, right, that will pay my Christmas
:53:37. > :53:40.for me. You are not sinking -- thinking in the long term. What
:53:40. > :53:44.London MP has been calling for a change in law and more regulations
:53:44. > :53:49.for the short term loan industry. I asked how big a problem it is in
:53:49. > :53:52.the capital. London is always at the sharp end of anything to do
:53:52. > :53:56.with debt and the cost of living. It is expensive to live in the
:53:56. > :54:01.capital city. There are 500,000 people who have put mortgages on
:54:02. > :54:07.credit cards, according to Shelter. They are not borrowing money to buy
:54:07. > :54:11.fancy goods and flash TV's, 40% are to buy basics like food and
:54:11. > :54:14.transport costs. Do you think the Government has been willing to
:54:14. > :54:17.listen or act in any way? really frustrated with the
:54:17. > :54:20.Government. When they were elected, they made a number of commitments.
:54:20. > :54:24.18 months on, they have done nothing about this and problems are
:54:24. > :54:28.getting worse. We know that capping the cost of credit means that less
:54:28. > :54:33.people go to illegal lenders. It is the illegal loan sharks that people
:54:33. > :54:36.are worried about. It also means that credit is more affordable.
:54:36. > :54:40.When we are facing an economic downturn, we need people to have
:54:40. > :54:44.access to credit. The impact these loans can have is all too clear.
:54:44. > :54:47.Whether it is the man that ended up with nine different Pay Day Loans
:54:47. > :54:54.because he was trying to pay one off with another, or the woman who
:54:54. > :54:58.borrowed �100, got chased by the company that she owed the money too,
:54:58. > :55:03.ended up paying back �300, and 48 hours later they rang her back and
:55:03. > :55:07.asked if she wanted another one. A 16-year-old who took out a loan
:55:07. > :55:11.with doorstep lenders, he will never pay that off. His family paid
:55:11. > :55:21.it off because they were so worried about what it would do to him, to
:55:21. > :55:22.
:55:22. > :55:26.Troy Deeney is Gavin Hayes, general secretary of Compass. In our
:55:26. > :55:31.Manchester studio, John Laver Day from the Consumer Finance
:55:31. > :55:38.Association. You recognise some of those issues, presumably. What do
:55:38. > :55:44.you want to be done? Firstly, there is no panacea to this problem. As
:55:44. > :55:48.Stella was alluding to, we are calling for a total cap on the cost
:55:48. > :55:53.of credit. That would include not only the interest rates. Often,
:55:53. > :55:57.people get charged various administration fees and so on. Also,
:55:57. > :56:01.we would like to see things like that rolling over of loans stopped.
:56:01. > :56:08.We would also like to see the number of Pay Day Loans people can
:56:08. > :56:13.take out in any 12 month period limited. That is pretty clear.
:56:13. > :56:20.Would that work? Would it work to do what? You have to take the idea
:56:21. > :56:26.of borrowing short-term, small sum loans in context. Pay Day Loans are
:56:26. > :56:29.just one method. You can also use your bank overdraft, or an
:56:29. > :56:35.unauthorised bank overdraft. Or you might go over your limit on your
:56:35. > :56:39.credit card. What I would say to you is, no, it will not work. Cabin
:56:39. > :56:44.the cost of Pay Day Loans will not make loans cheaper. It will reduce
:56:44. > :56:48.choice for consumers. It will actually push them to more
:56:48. > :56:51.expensive alternatives such as unauthorised overdrafts and going
:56:52. > :56:55.over their credit card limit. accept that people seeking short-
:56:55. > :57:01.term loans are often vulnerable and do need more protection? Absolutely
:57:01. > :57:08.not. We leant across age ranges, across income bands. Pretty equally
:57:08. > :57:13.loans to anybody who has got a bank account, a job and disposable
:57:13. > :57:18.income, 94% of our customers come from a household where there is at
:57:18. > :57:21.least one full-time worker. In the country as a whole at the moment,
:57:21. > :57:25.one in five households have no full-time worker are tall. We are
:57:25. > :57:29.not lending to people on the margins. We are lending to normal,
:57:29. > :57:32.ordinary people, that just want to smooth out the peaks and troughs of
:57:32. > :57:36.income and expenditure. They just want to smooth them out, if you
:57:36. > :57:41.make that impossible, they will go to loan sharks. There is absolutely
:57:41. > :57:47.no evidence of that, if you look at how caps on the cost of credit
:57:47. > :57:52.worker. I think actually the point that we are trying to make is that
:57:52. > :57:56.we accept the fact that pay-day lenders have a role to play in
:57:56. > :57:59.terms of helping people in financial emergencies. But I think
:57:59. > :58:03.it has become very clear in recent years that some of these pay-day
:58:04. > :58:09.lenders are charging excessive interest rates. I looked on the
:58:09. > :58:13.interest -- internet the other day, there was one charging over 5000 %
:58:13. > :58:17.APR for short-term loans. Do you recognise that, in the 30 seconds
:58:17. > :58:23.we have left? There is huge competition. A Pay Day Loans will
:58:23. > :58:27.cost you between �10.30 pounds for every �100 that you borrow. One
:58:27. > :58:35.company is offering a totally free deal at the moment. They got
:58:35. > :58:38.lambasted in the media for doing it. You can't really win. I'm afraid,
:58:38. > :58:48.actually, we have come to the end. I wish we had had a bit longer, but
:58:48. > :58:53.
:58:53. > :58:56.that is all we had time for. Back Well, there have been poles not
:58:56. > :59:02.just to choose councillors, but police commissioners. There will
:59:02. > :59:08.also be referendums on whether or not to have directly-elected mayors
:59:08. > :59:14.in cities like Liverpool and Leeds. Is it a much needed democratic
:59:14. > :59:24.revolution, or a costly PR exercise that will accomplish the square
:59:24. > :59:27.
:59:27. > :59:34.This government is going to break up concentrations of power and
:59:34. > :59:38.handed back to people. It is why we want elected mayors in our great
:59:38. > :59:48.cities. We are drawing up even more radical plans to open a public
:59:48. > :59:51.
:59:51. > :59:54.Power to the people - the warcry of revolutionaries up to and including,
:59:54. > :59:57.er, Nick Clegg and David Cameron. Who wouldn't want a greater say
:59:57. > :00:00.over how local services are run, or over policing priorities? Nick and
:00:00. > :00:05.Dave believe they can deliver that through directly elected mayors and
:00:05. > :00:10.police commissioners. But here's a thought - what if the people aren't
:00:10. > :00:18.actually sure if they want the power? We do already have a fair
:00:18. > :00:21.few elected mayors in England. Here's one you may know. It is a
:00:21. > :00:23.system which is directly accountable. It means you know that
:00:23. > :00:26.there's some person who is accountable to you for your
:00:26. > :00:33.services, the state of your roads, the success of your police in
:00:33. > :00:36.fighting crime in that area and you can hold them to account. And if
:00:36. > :00:39.they're not succeeding, then you can chuck them out, it's very
:00:39. > :00:46.important. Actually, it was Labour who introduced directly-elected
:00:46. > :00:49.Mayors, but not every Blairite thinks it's always a good idea.
:00:49. > :00:51.theory, all of this is very good, providing people with the power to
:00:51. > :00:55.cut through red tape and bureaucracy, the all-powerful
:00:55. > :00:57.leader actually going ahead on a white charger. In practice, of
:00:57. > :01:02.course, it means you're centralising rather than diffusing
:01:02. > :01:08.power. We're obsessed with putting power into the hands of charismatic
:01:08. > :01:12.individuals. And if you've got a Boris Johnson or a Ken Livingstone
:01:12. > :01:15.in London and if you've got a Mayor Bloomberg in New York, you can pull
:01:15. > :01:25.it off, but actually most people want somebody at very local level,
:01:25. > :01:28.their councillor, that they can hold to account. In May next year,
:01:28. > :01:31.11 of England's biggest cities will be asked if they'd like an elected
:01:31. > :01:36.mayor. A consultation is underway about exactly what powers they
:01:36. > :01:41.should have. The pay? Not formally set yet, although so far, the
:01:41. > :01:45.average is just under �70,000 a year. But 38 cities have already
:01:45. > :01:52.held referendums in the last few years. 13 have said yes, but 25
:01:52. > :01:57.said no. Outside London, there'll be 41 police commissioners in
:01:57. > :02:00.England and Wales. Salary? Between �65-100 grand. Chief Constables
:02:00. > :02:02.will still run the police, but the Commissioner will control the
:02:02. > :02:08.budget, hold senior officers to account and set local policing
:02:08. > :02:15.priorities. But recent polls have suggested that few members of the
:02:15. > :02:18.public actually realise they'll be here in less than a year's time.
:02:18. > :02:26.And some Coalition MPs think mayors and elected police chiefs are an
:02:26. > :02:29.idea best left alone. I think Nick and Dave both come back from a sort
:02:29. > :02:33.of PR background so something which to me is polishing the shiny bits
:02:33. > :02:37.to them sounds a good idea. The problem is the good idea is to
:02:37. > :02:40.elect somebody and then leave them to get on with it for four years
:02:40. > :02:45.without any checks and balances, so if they go off the rails there's no
:02:45. > :02:48.one to put them back on the rails, unless they get sectioned. Even
:02:48. > :02:53.some of the high priests of people power are a bit sniffy about
:02:53. > :02:57.elected police chiefs. What do they want? Super-mayors with super
:02:57. > :03:00.powers! I don't support individual public services having elected
:03:00. > :03:06.chiefs. What you want is mayors or local authorities which can join up
:03:06. > :03:09.across the public services. If you have individual elected head of the
:03:09. > :03:12.police, why not have an individual elected head of the education
:03:12. > :03:16.service or the NHS and so on? And that really just isn't feasible and
:03:16. > :03:19.wouldn't bring the joining up that you need. So I hope in due course
:03:19. > :03:21.we'll have not just mayors of city councils but of regional, metro
:03:21. > :03:23.mayoral authorities where you could bring together the police,
:03:23. > :03:31.transport, urban regeneration, housing other regional functions,
:03:32. > :03:34.as happens with the Mayor of London. And guess what that mayor thinks
:03:34. > :03:41.that Nick, Dave, and especially George here, have to do if they
:03:41. > :03:44.really believe in power to the people. I think the most important
:03:44. > :03:46.thing that central government needs to do is to recognise that all
:03:46. > :03:49.other big cities in Europe, around the world which have successful
:03:49. > :03:52.mayoralties have a greater ability by the central city authority to
:03:52. > :04:00.spend taxes that are raised locally and for that tax money to be
:04:00. > :04:03.democratically accountable and that's the way, I think... The
:04:03. > :04:06.Treasury's got to relax and the Treasury's got to accept that
:04:06. > :04:09.there's got to be real devolution in this country. Good luck with
:04:09. > :04:14.that Boris - because some critics think that for all the talk of
:04:14. > :04:17.people power, these Westminster types speak with forked tongue.
:04:17. > :04:20.of the absolute paradoxes at the moment is that the Government are
:04:20. > :04:22.preaching localism when every step they take from mayors and police
:04:22. > :04:25.commissioners through determining whether local government should
:04:25. > :04:32.empty the bins one week or two, they're actually determining the
:04:32. > :04:35.major policies from the centre. They've also got the idea that you
:04:35. > :04:44.can centralise the power and devolve the pain and individuals -
:04:44. > :04:48.police commissioner or mayors - take the flak. Gesture politics or
:04:49. > :04:51.a real desire to listen to the people? Ultimately, the success of
:04:51. > :05:01.elected mayors and police commissioners might just depend on
:05:01. > :05:03.
:05:03. > :05:07.how much power really flows from this place to your place.
:05:07. > :05:11.The Police Minister and the man who has pioneered this whole idea is
:05:11. > :05:17.Nick Herbert, and he joins me now from his rather lovely looking
:05:17. > :05:21.constituency in Sussex. Thank you for being with us. Who wants these
:05:21. > :05:26.police commissioners? There is plenty of survey evidence that
:05:26. > :05:29.people feel they don't have enough say over policing and would like
:05:29. > :05:35.more of a say and they are attracted to the idea of being
:05:35. > :05:37.given one. We know from London that this has been broadly very popular.
:05:37. > :05:42.The mayor has been given responsibility for policing in
:05:42. > :05:47.London, that is a quarter of all police officers in the country, and
:05:47. > :05:52.that means the mayor can respond to what the public are saying. He has
:05:52. > :05:56.responded on things like knife crime, keeping police officers on
:05:56. > :06:01.the street. If you were to ask Londoners now if they wanted that
:06:01. > :06:06.taken away and given a quango, people invisible, unaccountable to
:06:06. > :06:10.you, deciding those priorities, people would give a pretty dusty
:06:10. > :06:14.response. We want to extend it across the rest of England and
:06:14. > :06:19.Wales, and that will happen with elections in November next year.
:06:19. > :06:24.What if they are elected on a very low Democratic turnout, does that
:06:24. > :06:33.give them legitimacy? Any turnout will confirm a greater legitimacy
:06:33. > :06:38.that we -- than we have at the moment. The public simply don't
:06:38. > :06:41.know who to go to, they can't name their police authority chair, so
:06:41. > :06:46.there will be a greater legitimacy. It is interesting that a poll
:06:46. > :06:49.recently conducted found that two thirds of the public, when asked,
:06:49. > :06:55.said they would vote, and we know there is a great deal of concern
:06:55. > :06:59.about crime. It is always a top priority for the public, and people
:06:59. > :07:03.will be motivated turnout because they care about these matters
:07:03. > :07:07.aren't there will be a lot of local media interest as we approach the
:07:07. > :07:12.elections next November. Who will be funding the campaigns for these
:07:12. > :07:18.people? I know that it sounds a very granular question, but
:07:18. > :07:22.political parties are strapped for cash so they will not one to. Who
:07:22. > :07:26.will run these campaigns? Were have been clear that political parties
:07:26. > :07:30.are free to field candidates if they want to, but we have also
:07:30. > :07:34.served as the government that we are more than happy for
:07:34. > :07:41.independents to stand. We are looking for people of real Kaaba,
:07:41. > :07:45.people who have run big organisations, who have a track
:07:45. > :07:50.record of success, to put their names forward for election. They
:07:50. > :07:53.don't need to be party candidate. What matters is that we have Virk
:07:53. > :07:58.group of people who think they can make a difference and it is
:07:58. > :08:00.important to understand they won't be interfering in the operational
:08:00. > :08:05.independence of police officers but they will be holding them to
:08:05. > :08:10.account and they will be the voice of the people. Have you got big
:08:10. > :08:15.figures coming forward? I think there will be. We have already seen
:08:15. > :08:19.a lot of interest in these elections. Can you name a few?
:08:19. > :08:24.know that Colonel Tim Collins has put his name forward in Kent.
:08:24. > :08:32.know that - any other names? just wait, I think there will be
:08:32. > :08:38.them, and parliament has just agreed this policy. You will find
:08:38. > :08:42.that interesting people put their names forward, and it is not you or
:08:42. > :08:46.me deciding who will be elected, it is the people deciding who they
:08:46. > :08:51.want to put in office to hold the police to account, to make sure
:08:51. > :08:56.there is a better deal for victims, and that people's priorities are
:08:56. > :09:01.reflected in policing. People have not had a say outside London in
:09:01. > :09:07.that before. This policy is about people power. Don't you worry about
:09:07. > :09:09.the populism that might follow from this, that you might have elected
:09:09. > :09:14.police commissioners coming to the end of their term, they will need
:09:14. > :09:22.to come up with an eye-catching initiative. If the case hasn't been
:09:22. > :09:25.sold, they will be calling for heads to roll - is that the best
:09:25. > :09:30.way to do policing? They can't interfere with individual
:09:30. > :09:34.operations, but we have not seen that in London. The mayor stood on
:09:34. > :09:38.a platform of wanting to deal with things like a knife crime,
:09:38. > :09:42.responding to public concern. In the end, I trust the people to
:09:42. > :09:46.elect who they think will be best to hold the police to account. I
:09:47. > :09:52.don't believe this argument about extremism is a valid one because it
:09:52. > :09:57.is tantamount to saying you can't trust the public to make a decision
:09:57. > :10:01.in their area so we will leave this to be decided by independent or
:10:01. > :10:06.unelected bodies with no accountability at all. Let's trust
:10:06. > :10:15.the people, give them the say for the first time outside of London.
:10:15. > :10:19.Thank you. A pint designed -- behind you looks quite enticing.
:10:19. > :10:23.Didn't David Blunkett have it right in that film that politicians love
:10:23. > :10:28.to talk the talk of handing power down, and hate the idea of it in
:10:28. > :10:31.practice? Yes, having said that we must give the coalition a fair
:10:31. > :10:38.hearing on this. They have said from the beginning they wanted to
:10:38. > :10:42.do this. The question is how this works in practice and how they then
:10:42. > :10:49.feel about it because they have these things they want to deal of
:10:49. > :10:53.local mayors and police commissioners. In Birmingham they
:10:53. > :10:59.have a strong candidate for mayor, among many, but she wouldn't
:10:59. > :11:02.control policing buyer would tease. How can this makes sense? This
:11:02. > :11:09.person is capable senior political person, and then she has to deal
:11:09. > :11:16.with another police commissioner. It seems you could add more layers
:11:16. > :11:21.than you have suggested. I agree, the London model is of course where
:11:21. > :11:26.Boris is in charge of the police but also in charge of transport and
:11:26. > :11:30.budget as well. What we are lacking is almost a lack of integration. We
:11:30. > :11:34.have too many people being elected here. I think it is a good idea,
:11:34. > :11:39.but the question you asked about, there have candidates would be
:11:39. > :11:46.addressed if it was integrated. Both of you, thank you. That is it
:11:46. > :11:50.for this week. Thank you took all of our guests. By next week, two
:11:50. > :11:57.giant pandas will be installed in London Zoo. They had just landed
:11:57. > :12:00.from China. They first are the first of these creatures to live in
:12:00. > :12:05.this country for many years, but let's face it the most dangerous