:00:52. > :00:57.Here... New political constituencies, but why are so many
:00:57. > :01:01.MPs opposing the new map? And more than two decades after the
:01:01. > :01:11.Hillsborough football disaster, the debate of release -- the debate of
:01:11. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :25:56.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1485 seconds
:25:56. > :25:58.Welcome to the Politics Show in the North West. I am Annabel Tiffin.
:25:58. > :26:06.Coming up... Redrawing the region's political
:26:06. > :26:11.map. Meet the winners and losers in the latest parliamentary party game.
:26:11. > :26:14.We will come walk the streets, get a real feel for the community and
:26:14. > :26:17.she would not contemplate the proposals you have.
:26:17. > :26:22.And the people's debate. How campaigners are getting the Commons
:26:22. > :26:25.to discuss the Hillsborough disaster.
:26:25. > :26:32.It has been likened to a game of musical chairs, but few of our MPs
:26:32. > :26:36.want to play. The Government has decided the country's political map
:26:36. > :26:41.needs to be redrawn, meaning there will be fewer MPs and larger
:26:41. > :26:45.constituencies. Officials from the Boundary Commission of England have
:26:45. > :26:51.come up of a plan, starting the consultation process this week in
:26:51. > :26:55.Manchester. Politicians are always jostling for
:26:55. > :26:59.position at Westminster, but the Boundary Commission could create
:27:00. > :27:04.new battle lines in the North West. This week saw the first public
:27:04. > :27:09.hearings to gauge reaction to shift the constituency boundaries. Some
:27:09. > :27:15.have twice the population of others. The Government wanted to set a
:27:15. > :27:20.standard size of around 76,000 voters. The response is plans that
:27:20. > :27:25.could have consequences for every party. We always knew this scale
:27:25. > :27:30.would be huge. Even without the tight restriction on size, once you
:27:30. > :27:35.start reducing constituencies by 10%, you will get a lot of changes.
:27:35. > :27:40.The 72 current constituencies will be condensed into 66, bringing some
:27:40. > :27:45.surprising changes. You might have thought that Leigh Town Hall would
:27:45. > :27:49.be in Leigh. Under these proposals, it would be part of Westhoughton.
:27:49. > :27:54.You might have heard that much of the BBC is moving to Salford Quays,
:27:54. > :27:58.but this would be in the Manchester Central constituency.
:27:58. > :28:06.Victoria Connett's campaign to save the Salford & Eccles constituency
:28:06. > :28:15.has attracted 60,000 supporters on Facebook. The area has been here
:28:15. > :28:20.since 9,500 they say. Longer than Manchester. We got the first MP in
:28:20. > :28:28.1872 and fought for that. It is important to have our: In P. Rivals
:28:28. > :28:33.claim that Labour holds an advantage. -- have our one MP.
:28:33. > :28:37.means that Labour can need fewer votes than other parties.
:28:38. > :28:41.Boundary Commission in London have got a map and decided to cut it
:28:41. > :28:45.into convenient portions and I would say to them to walk the
:28:45. > :28:50.streets, get a real feel for the community and you would not
:28:50. > :28:55.contemplate those proposals. While boundaries change, so will some
:28:55. > :28:59.names. George Osborne's Tatton seat will be abolished. The Northwich
:28:59. > :29:06.seat will contain many of the same wards. His colleague in Weaver Vale
:29:06. > :29:10.could lose his seat altogether. is the right thing. The coalition
:29:10. > :29:15.Government is committed to cutting the cost of politics, by reducing
:29:15. > :29:19.constituencies. That is part of that process. The commission says
:29:19. > :29:24.it is open to suggestions. We would encourage people to look at how
:29:24. > :29:29.this works and if they can propose something better, one that works,
:29:29. > :29:33.we would look at it. The final proposals will be handed to
:29:33. > :29:37.Government in 2013 and need to be voted on by the Commons before the
:29:37. > :29:42.political map can be redrawn. Among those asking the Boundary
:29:42. > :29:48.Commission to think again was Andy Burnham -- Andy Burnham, the Labour
:29:48. > :29:52.MP for Leigh. Much of that town centre would no longer be in his
:29:52. > :29:56.constituency under the plans. He is now leading a campaign called Keep
:29:56. > :30:02.Leigh in Leigh and I asked him to explain his objections.
:30:02. > :30:07.The proposals rip the heart out of Leigh, making the town hall in West
:30:07. > :30:12.Horton. I have been giving voice to the real anger felt by Leigh people.
:30:12. > :30:17.It has had many attacks on its identity down the decades. We are
:30:17. > :30:22.not accepting it this time. Is your real objection that Labour has
:30:22. > :30:25.always had an advantage in smaller constituencies? This is not party
:30:25. > :30:31.politics, but about communities and their ability to be heard in
:30:31. > :30:37.Parliament. Jiminez keys like Leigh had been broken up. It is like it
:30:37. > :30:42.does not exist. -- communities like Leigh. That is not acceptable. It
:30:42. > :30:45.is not about party politics. The Conservatives, Liberal Democrats
:30:45. > :30:49.and Labour have all made the same arguments to the Boundary
:30:49. > :30:54.Commission that Leigh should be left alone and others in Greater
:30:54. > :30:57.Manchester sued. The party's coming together is a powerful
:30:57. > :31:04.demonstration that this goes above party politics and it is about
:31:04. > :31:08.people's representation. The why did Ed Miliband not that the
:31:08. > :31:11.Conservatives would gerrymandering over these proposals? We have
:31:11. > :31:16.serious concerns over what the Government is doing by reducing
:31:16. > :31:24.constituencies in this way. It is likely that it is going to have a
:31:24. > :31:27.serious effect on constituencies in Labour areas. That much is clear.
:31:27. > :31:32.In this specific example, the number of seats cannot be reduced
:31:32. > :31:35.without causing disruption. We are making a local, regional argument
:31:35. > :31:39.to the Boundary Commission. We have accepted the number of
:31:39. > :31:43.constituencies will need to be reduced. But within that, it is
:31:43. > :31:48.still possible to reduce constituencies without such
:31:48. > :31:55.previous disruption to community ties. What are the other options?
:31:55. > :32:00.We have put an option to the Boundary Commission, and with that
:32:00. > :32:05.option, you can avoid disruptive domino effect going right across
:32:05. > :32:08.Greater Manchester. The Boundary Commission can then keep lots are
:32:08. > :32:14.communities together and that will be a common sense move that would,
:32:14. > :32:23.I am sure, have support. Who do you blame for these changes? The
:32:23. > :32:28.coalition or asking for them or the Boundary Commission? The argument
:32:28. > :32:32.has been lost in Parliament, because Parliament has endorsed the
:32:32. > :32:35.reduction of the constituencies, the decision made by the Boundary
:32:35. > :32:40.Commission. I do not think the Boundary Commission have made a
:32:40. > :32:45.good decision. This kind of destruction could have been avoided
:32:45. > :32:50.to establish communities. As we had seen, it is not just Leigh, but
:32:50. > :32:56.Salford being taken off the map. This really is not acceptable. The
:32:56. > :33:02.Government says it is all about localism, then do this. From London,
:33:03. > :33:07.the impose these changes on regions with pride identities. Leigh should
:33:07. > :33:11.not plead for its identity, given that we have been forced to do that,
:33:11. > :33:17.we hope we will now listen to 3,000 angry voices.
:33:17. > :33:22.To discuss that, I am joined in the studio by Professor David Denver
:33:22. > :33:26.from Lancaster University, an expert on elections and voting.
:33:26. > :33:30.What you make of the commission's proposals? Andy Burnham says that
:33:30. > :33:35.is ripping the heart out of communities. The Boundary
:33:35. > :33:39.Commission has to make changes anyway, because of the movements of
:33:39. > :33:44.population. In this case, it is big changes because of the reduction in
:33:44. > :33:50.seats. On this occasion, they have got to get seats more equal, making
:33:50. > :33:54.the system fairer and more equal in size. That is difficult. That is if
:33:54. > :33:59.you are also trying to balance community and local Government
:33:59. > :34:05.boundaries and things like that. It is a tough job. Let us the clear,
:34:05. > :34:09.these are only initial proposals. If past experience is anything to
:34:09. > :34:13.go by, the Boundary Commission will listen to people at these local
:34:13. > :34:19.consultation and we will get a set of revised proposals, which might
:34:19. > :34:23.not suit everyone. But if experience is anything to go by,
:34:23. > :34:28.there will be changes and that might satisfy some of the
:34:28. > :34:32.complaints that have been made in those reports. What you make of the
:34:32. > :34:36.argument Ed Miliband and Labour are making, that this is all a
:34:36. > :34:40.political move to take away their advantage that Labour supposedly
:34:40. > :34:46.has had in smaller constituencies? There is no doubt that Labour has
:34:46. > :34:50.had an advantage. It is very rare for any Government to make any
:34:50. > :34:53.change to the electoral system that is going to disadvantage them. The
:34:53. > :34:59.Government is not going to disadvantage itself. At the same
:34:59. > :35:04.time, there is the argument, it is a matter of fairness. Whether in
:35:04. > :35:09.the North West, there are constituencies ranging from about
:35:09. > :35:15.50,000-80,000. That means the votes of people in smaller constituencies
:35:15. > :35:19.are worth more than in the big constituencies. That is not fair. I
:35:19. > :35:23.am quite strongly in favour of the equalisation being attempted.
:35:23. > :35:27.difference did you think it will make to the political map of the
:35:27. > :35:32.North West? I have not done detailed analysis, but there is an
:35:32. > :35:36.analysis that exists on the internet suggesting that, all but
:35:36. > :35:43.the big North West region, going right up to the North wet -- going
:35:43. > :35:48.right up to the Scottish borders, all of the parties could lose two
:35:48. > :35:53.seats, so there is no distinctive advantage to the Conservatives.
:35:53. > :35:58.you think of voters care? Some voters obviously do. We have heard
:35:58. > :36:05.about signatures and the rest of it. My own view is that it is a small
:36:05. > :36:10.minority, especially in big cities. In big cities, I think people, the
:36:10. > :36:15.city is cut up into slices and I do not think people worry about which
:36:15. > :36:22.lies they are in. Thank you very much for joining us.
:36:22. > :36:28.Night to catch up on some other political news.
:36:28. > :36:32.The GMB union says 6,000 jobs are being lost in the region's public
:36:32. > :36:38.sector every month. Manchester City Council is the second worst hit
:36:38. > :36:42.authority in the country, losing over 2,500 jobs, almost 15% of the
:36:42. > :36:45.work force. The parents of the murdered
:36:45. > :36:49.Lancaster -- Lancashire nurse Jane Clough say they are feeling
:36:49. > :36:54.positive after a meeting with Government officials over changes
:36:54. > :36:57.to bail laws. Jonathan Vass was out on bail when he stabbed Jane
:36:57. > :37:01.outside Blackpool Victoria Hospital last year.
:37:01. > :37:04.Paul Maynard, the Conservative MP for Blackpool North and Cleveleys,
:37:05. > :37:09.says he was abused by a businesswoman because of his
:37:09. > :37:14.disability. He has cerebral palsy which led to him losing his balance
:37:14. > :37:18.while on a bus. I was told I could not be on a bus because I could not
:37:18. > :37:24.stand up straight. I could not believe that, because I have as
:37:24. > :37:28.much right to be on the bus to -- as she does. It is called public
:37:28. > :37:33.transport. And the Isle of Man has Anuj chief
:37:33. > :37:37.Minister. Alan Bell has been elected by the parliament and will
:37:37. > :37:42.succeed Tony Brown. Sometimes, the Commons is accused
:37:42. > :37:48.of being out of touch. But on Monday for the first time MPs will
:37:48. > :37:53.debate a subject because enough people have demanded it. Over
:37:53. > :37:57.140,000 have signed an online petition asking for a discussion on
:37:57. > :38:03.the least of documents related to the Hillsborough football disaster
:38:03. > :38:07.of 1989. But what can it achieve? Liverpool has mourned the debts at
:38:07. > :38:14.Hillsborough for more than two decades. Thousands remember the 96
:38:14. > :38:19.who died every year. The passage of time has done little to heal the
:38:19. > :38:24.pain and answer questions. Why did my son, who paid on a football
:38:24. > :38:30.ticket, did everything right that day, went to a football match and
:38:30. > :38:36.came home in a coffin? Margaret's son James was 18 at his first away
:38:36. > :38:41.match. Someone asked me if I thought I would get victory. That
:38:41. > :38:46.is not a word I would use. There is no victory in Hillsborough, week
:38:46. > :38:52.will always be the losers. But we will hopefully see we have peace in
:38:52. > :38:58.our rides, comfort, Andy Comfort being that the real truth has come
:38:58. > :39:04.out. Crucial to this entire case is the release of cabinet documents.
:39:04. > :39:09.- and they come but being. The BBC has requested under the Freedom of
:39:09. > :39:12.Information Act. It was initially granted, but the cabinet office has
:39:12. > :39:16.appealed against the decision. There were claims that Margaret
:39:16. > :39:20.Thatcher did not want the police blamed for the incident. What we
:39:20. > :39:24.wanted to do with this freedom of Information request was to see if
:39:24. > :39:27.there were any documents shedding light on the actions of the
:39:27. > :39:31.Thatcher Government as to what happened. The information
:39:31. > :39:34.commissioner who has seen the document says they do contain
:39:34. > :39:38.specific information which would add to public knowledge and
:39:38. > :39:43.understanding as to what happened. So over a bowl see the documents
:39:43. > :39:49.being kept secret? The Government wants an independent panel set up
:39:49. > :39:52.in 2009 to decide what should be published. -- so who will see.
:39:52. > :39:56.want to make sure all that information goes to the families,
:39:56. > :40:00.so that they can absorb up and read it. The Hillsborough Justice
:40:00. > :40:06.Campaign want to see all of the documents, not just those selected
:40:06. > :40:10.by the panel. We are sure report will be produced, which would be
:40:10. > :40:15.quite rigorous, but it is still second hand to those people who
:40:15. > :40:21.experienced the disaster. So it takes a tremendous leap of faith.
:40:21. > :40:25.You are expected to trust, picture Trust and others. Put your trust in
:40:25. > :40:29.the establishment figures, when it is this that has meant that has led
:40:29. > :40:39.people dying. Or 22 years, people in this city have been suspicious -
:40:39. > :40:39.
:40:39. > :40:47.- suspicious of a cover up. -- when it is that establishment that has
:40:47. > :40:52.been lying. This could be democracy dictating the agenda. Without the
:40:52. > :40:57.support, families would have collapsed a long time ago. When we
:40:57. > :41:02.go to a memorial service, and see all those people there, 22 years,
:41:02. > :41:09.seeing all those people they remembering their fellow supporters.
:41:09. > :41:13.That is a credit to them and a lovely thing for the 96 who died.
:41:13. > :41:17.The e-petition is a new idea at this early stage and it is
:41:17. > :41:21.difficult to say what its impact will be. For those affected by
:41:21. > :41:26.Hillsborough, the whole pays it will bring closure.
:41:26. > :41:30.I am joined by Maria Eagle, the Labour MP for Garston & Halewood,
:41:30. > :41:35.who is also an established campaigner on Hillsborough. The
:41:35. > :41:40.debate for MPs, I am wondering what the point is? There is a lot of
:41:40. > :41:45.passion surrounding the subject, but you already have an independent
:41:45. > :41:50.panel, why do MPs need to debate this? The important thing about the
:41:50. > :41:55.debate tomorrow is that MPs and Parliament has a chance to vote to
:41:55. > :41:59.say all of these documents should be put into the public domain. That
:41:59. > :42:02.will strengthen a hand of The Independent Panel, when they are
:42:02. > :42:06.negotiating with the Government about what should be published. As
:42:06. > :42:11.parliamentarians, we should support the families and be seen to do so
:42:11. > :42:16.and Monday's that it lets us do that. Is there any question that
:42:16. > :42:20.the panel will not get all the documentation? There seems to be
:42:20. > :42:26.evidencing the I getting what they need. The will get the documents,
:42:26. > :42:30.but there is an issue about what can be published. Andy Burnham and
:42:30. > :42:36.died in Government called on the 20 anniversary of the publication of
:42:36. > :42:41.everything that remained about this disaster. -- Andy Burnham and
:42:41. > :42:47.myself. The families need to know. There is no indication to see it
:42:47. > :42:50.will not all be released. There is. There will be negotiation between
:42:50. > :42:56.The Independent Panel and civil servants in Whitehall and there are
:42:56. > :43:01.all kinds of conventions that would stop Documentation like cabinet
:43:01. > :43:05.minutes and other documents from being published. Don't you have to
:43:05. > :43:11.put your faith in The Independent Panel? Labour set that are. Let
:43:11. > :43:13.them make the decision rather than putting pressure on releasing them.
:43:13. > :43:19.This is supportive of The Independent Panel, strengthening
:43:19. > :43:24.their hand in negotiations that will take place with the Government.
:43:24. > :43:27.I have faith in the panel, led by the Bishop of Liverpool, who
:43:28. > :43:32.understands the trauma still felt in the city. He will want to
:43:32. > :43:36.publish everything. If you look at the terms of reference, at the
:43:36. > :43:42.history of this matter, there has been pressure over the years not to
:43:42. > :43:46.do that. But the Government has said they are going to two. What we
:43:46. > :43:50.want to do is make clear as parliamentarians that's Parliament
:43:50. > :43:55.supports the publishing of everything, strengthen our hands of
:43:55. > :44:00.The Independent Panel about what should be published. We fear that
:44:00. > :44:04.there will still be civil servants who will try to stop these
:44:04. > :44:09.documents been published and we want to give her departure to The
:44:09. > :44:12.Independent panel in their arguments. Labour set up The
:44:13. > :44:17.Independent Panel after the 20th anniversary. Why wasn't anything
:44:17. > :44:24.done before that? Labour were in power for 12 years even before the
:44:24. > :44:30.anniversary. Why was nothing set up before? A lot of things were done.
:44:30. > :44:35.If you followed the history of this. When we got into office, we set up
:44:35. > :44:40.under Jack Straw a review of the evidence led by Lord Justice Stuart
:44:40. > :44:44.Smith. When that was published in 1998, it enabled a lot of
:44:44. > :44:49.documentation that had been hidden to be put into the House of Commons
:44:49. > :44:54.library, showing things that were not knowing, particularly South
:44:54. > :44:59.Yorkshire Police's attempt to cover up and full Lord Justice Taylor
:44:59. > :45:02.about what had gone on. It shows the history of the Establishment
:45:02. > :45:08.trying to smear the families and those who were fans on the day,
:45:08. > :45:11.which has led to this many years of frustration and suspicion. It is
:45:11. > :45:17.only by putting everything that remains into the public domain that
:45:17. > :45:22.we can say to the families, there it is, there is nothing else. That
:45:22. > :45:27.is what Parliament tomorrow will be voting, I hope, to support. Thank
:45:27. > :45:33.you very much. I know it is an issue close to a lot of people's
:45:34. > :45:38.arts in this region. Thank you for joining us. -- People's hearts in