:00:25. > :00:29.And in the North West. Battleships. Southampton and Liverpool square up
:00:29. > :00:32.for the final fight over the lucrative cruise market. We bring
:00:32. > :00:35.you both sides. And claims that the Government's
:00:35. > :00:45.plans to tighten up housing benefit rules could worsen the region's
:00:45. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :33:49.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1984 seconds
:33:50. > :33:56.Liverpool was the premier port in the age of the line and its
:33:56. > :34:01.maritime domination was gradually eroded. There was a decision made
:34:01. > :34:05.to move so many services across Atlantic to Southampton. Their
:34:05. > :34:11.number of reasons for this but the main one was that it was easier to
:34:11. > :34:18.get to that for the wealthy people. It was a change that started as
:34:18. > :34:24.Southampton crew as an emigration port and for the growing market in
:34:24. > :34:29.luxury truffle. The very early days of the cruise ships, that is when
:34:29. > :34:37.it started. I have never been in here before but you can see the
:34:37. > :34:42.shadows from the past. We are in the old Cunard building. It was
:34:43. > :34:47.from here, the 5th floor boardroom, that the company commissioned Queen
:34:47. > :34:51.Mary and controlled the great ocean-going liners of the age.
:34:51. > :34:56.Since then, Cunard has moved to Southampton along with the vast
:34:56. > :35:06.bulk of the cruise market. Now Liverpool is campaigning to win a
:35:06. > :35:12.
:35:12. > :35:15.larger share of it back. The Queen Mary might have long ago departed
:35:15. > :35:25.British waters but her flag still flies in Crosby. It was presented
:35:25. > :35:28.to Gervais Stringer, who's been on about a dozen cruises. First the
:35:28. > :35:34.first for which would have been around the world. These are some of
:35:34. > :35:42.the mementoes from the first trip. Entering the famous Golden Gate
:35:42. > :35:45.Bridge. But having to board in Southampton was less enjoyable.
:35:45. > :35:49.is an immense problem and has deterred some people from going on
:35:49. > :35:54.these cruises. Poor people from the North would be willing to go to
:35:54. > :35:58.Liverpool then come from Southampton. The walking along the
:35:58. > :36:01.landing stage... The modest terminal was opened in 2007 - for
:36:01. > :36:09.many visitors their first glimpse of Liverpool. It's attracted the
:36:09. > :36:12.big ships and success has floated ambition. At the moment, while the
:36:12. > :36:17.visitors that do come spend quite a lot of money, they are only here
:36:17. > :36:23.for the day, there do not stay overnight. It would multiply the
:36:23. > :36:27.economic impact for us if we could do that. It would create more jobs
:36:27. > :36:33.because there would be lots of servicing of the additional
:36:33. > :36:36.passengers that were coming through if we got turnaround status.
:36:36. > :36:39.this week, a letter's emerged from the European Commission suggesting
:36:39. > :36:49.that it would want some of its original �8.5 million investment
:36:49. > :36:49.
:36:49. > :36:53.back. They would have a reasonable case that if there is safe partial
:36:53. > :36:57.refund to the UK are authorities there should be a partial refund to
:36:57. > :37:01.the community authorities. I have no idea how it will come out or
:37:01. > :37:05.what percentage than repayment may be but they do seem to have a
:37:05. > :37:09.reasonable position, looking at the legal texts. That, of course, is
:37:09. > :37:13.still being decided. But if Liverpool wins, many people here
:37:13. > :37:20.would feel the ships have returned home.
:37:20. > :37:23.Well, that's the view from Liverpool's perspective. But
:37:23. > :37:29.Southampton have reacted as angrily as a cruise passenger being told
:37:29. > :37:35.the kitchen's closing. Time to hear their arguments, here's my
:37:35. > :37:39.colleague in the South of England, Peter Henley. Southampton has
:37:39. > :37:44.invested nearly �40 million to meet the growing demand for the cruise
:37:44. > :37:48.trade. Ships like this bring in more than a million pounds every
:37:49. > :37:53.time they start to finish at journey here in the port. When a
:37:53. > :37:57.cruise ship comes in an army of workers spring into action. Dozens
:37:57. > :38:03.of stevedores move into your luggage, lorryloads of fresh food
:38:03. > :38:07.and drink from local suppliers, coach firms, taxis. The wages
:38:07. > :38:12.earned each time a cruise ship docks is a phantom of the lifeblood
:38:12. > :38:17.of the economy. And new businesses have developed around the wealthy
:38:17. > :38:21.passengers requirements. Americans like travelling backwards and
:38:21. > :38:28.forwards and they tend to bring their tuxedos and posh frocks and
:38:28. > :38:32.when they get to another part of Europe they do not do -- need those
:38:32. > :38:37.and we set them back home. The idea that Liverpool could take
:38:37. > :38:41.Southampton's crews work angers Colin. It there are going into a
:38:41. > :38:45.grey market why do they need subsidy to enter it? We have set a
:38:45. > :38:54.new business up and we have not taken a subsidy to do this, we will
:38:54. > :38:56.have to take it out of our profits eventually. Plans had been shelved
:38:56. > :39:01.for a multi-million pound 5th terminal. There were worried that
:39:01. > :39:08.what they saw as unfair competition from Liverpool could hit them hard.
:39:08. > :39:14.The issue is about whether it is privately-funded or state funded.
:39:14. > :39:19.Ports owned by private companies should be investing in cruised
:39:19. > :39:22.terminals. That is what we do. We do not get any grant aid in
:39:22. > :39:29.Southampton to do that and there should be the case in Liverpool as
:39:29. > :39:34.well. The Queen Mary to has been in port for just a few hours and now
:39:34. > :39:38.passengers arriving for the trip to New York. How would you fail to
:39:38. > :39:42.saying to New York from Liverpool instead of Southampton? And there,
:39:42. > :39:48.I would prefer a Southampton. the home of cruising, the Isle of
:39:48. > :39:55.Wight, the Solent, it has always been here. A bit like afternoon tea,
:39:55. > :39:58.it is part of the experience Forest. Liverpool has afternoon tea!
:39:58. > :40:02.don't know, I've never really considered the, to be honest with
:40:02. > :40:07.you. I do not think any of us understand why the government are
:40:07. > :40:11.even considering this. The previous Labour administration turned his
:40:11. > :40:17.application down. It was only a matter of weeks after the coalition
:40:17. > :40:20.were elected at that Liverpool are submitted another application. I
:40:20. > :40:27.cannot believe that a Conservative lead administration would even
:40:27. > :40:32.contemplate to invest. As a deep water, sheltered saw -- port, with
:40:32. > :40:35.close connections to the Continent, Southampton has many natural
:40:35. > :40:39.attributes but it is worried for competition from Liverpool.
:40:39. > :40:42.So, with a Government decision expected soon it's all to play for,
:40:42. > :40:46.but who will emerge the winner? We thought we'd get the leaders from
:40:46. > :40:48.both City Councils to argue their case. So joining me from Liverpool
:40:48. > :40:58.waterfront is Councillor Joe Anderson, while in Southampton is
:40:58. > :41:01.
:41:01. > :41:05.Councillor Royston Smith. What is your real complaint here? Is it
:41:05. > :41:09.that Liverpool could benefit unfairly from public money or is it
:41:09. > :41:14.that you wanted to the monopoly on cruises in this country? It is
:41:14. > :41:18.nothing to do with monopoly. I am but a humble leader of the council,
:41:18. > :41:23.not a private businessman and a lookout for the people I represent
:41:23. > :41:27.and I want to protect their jobs. I don't mind if people want to
:41:27. > :41:31.compete, that is healthy, but they must compete on a level playing
:41:32. > :41:35.field. Southampton has no public subsidy to export or its cruise
:41:35. > :41:40.business and Liverpool should be the same. It should be private
:41:40. > :41:43.money competing with private money. If Liverpool pay back all the
:41:43. > :41:47.public funding that it has received from Europe and from the UK
:41:47. > :41:51.government, which you then be happy to get these turn around right?
:41:51. > :41:53.would be perfectly content with that we have to acknowledge that
:41:54. > :41:58.this is still public money. Liverpool City Council would be
:41:58. > :42:02.using public money to pay back other public money. What we are
:42:02. > :42:06.saying is that the private operator that will benefit from this should
:42:06. > :42:09.be the ones that pay for the terminal. It is straightforward.
:42:09. > :42:14.Public money should never be used to compete with private sector
:42:14. > :42:18.investment. Councillor Andersson, you were given this money on the
:42:18. > :42:25.proviso that this was just a visiting Port, and you are now
:42:25. > :42:31.trying to change those conditions. We believe rightly so. The market
:42:31. > :42:35.is at growing market, Liverpool has a facility which uses the lock
:42:35. > :42:41.system here in Liverpool which means that we cannot allow some of
:42:41. > :42:46.the picture to come in and visit the city. But he knew that when you
:42:46. > :42:50.got the money. But things have changed. We got the money over five
:42:50. > :42:54.years ago. We are offering to pay that money back and we have
:42:54. > :43:00.negotiated with the government what we believe to be a fair price. We
:43:00. > :43:04.are offering to put 5.3 million bag. When councillor Smith talks about
:43:04. > :43:09.the private sector, the private sector are not involved or engaged
:43:09. > :43:12.in this at all. It is run by Liverpool City Council and it is
:43:12. > :43:17.Liverpool City Council that will continue to run it. I would like
:43:17. > :43:22.him to explain why he believes the private sector are involved in this
:43:22. > :43:28.because the state was a quite false. I would ask him the question, if we
:43:28. > :43:31.pay they supply back, is he going to leave Liverpool a loan? We have
:43:31. > :43:35.offered that the Government. He asks us to pay back the European
:43:35. > :43:41.funding but the fact is your do not want the funding back. They are not
:43:42. > :43:48.asking me for the money back. not troupe that the commission has
:43:48. > :43:52.said they will look very seriously at asking for some money back if
:43:52. > :43:57.the condition is changed? European Commission have not so
:43:57. > :44:05.that to us. We have approached the European Commission. Other ports
:44:05. > :44:10.around the country have had European funding. Is it right that
:44:10. > :44:17.the European Commission has said that they would look, if there was
:44:17. > :44:24.a change of use, at financial correction? They have said that and
:44:24. > :44:27.they would say that because this money was much funding. You had the
:44:27. > :44:33.Regional Development Agency and you had a �10 million investment from
:44:33. > :44:36.the European Commission. That was on the basis of much funding. So it
:44:36. > :44:39.Liverpool have to pay back the regional development agency money,
:44:39. > :44:43.the UK government money, then the commission will quite rightly look
:44:44. > :44:48.at their match funding and that is only to be expected. What we are
:44:48. > :44:53.saying, it simply, is to the private sector company were to make
:44:53. > :45:00.money from this than they should pay for it, not the public sector.
:45:00. > :45:03.The ports are not going to make any money from it. He is not listening.
:45:03. > :45:07.With regards to the European Union I would hope that councillor Smith
:45:07. > :45:10.would not wish to interfere in trying to force a local-authority
:45:10. > :45:15.in financially difficult times to pay back money to Europe when they
:45:15. > :45:18.have not asked us for it. If you're come and speak to me and talk to me
:45:18. > :45:22.about it then we will discuss it with them but at the moment they
:45:22. > :45:32.have not done that. We're not trying to make Liverpool pay it
:45:32. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:39.back, we are trying to make the company pay it back. Southampton
:45:39. > :45:46.have 75% of the cruise line trade. At the risk of sounding like a
:45:46. > :45:51.parent telling of children, could you not just share? Is there not
:45:51. > :45:55.enough business out there for most of you? There is plenty of business
:45:55. > :45:59.out there and we are more than happy. Why would we not be happy
:45:59. > :46:04.for cruises to start and finish in Liverpool? That is nothing to do
:46:04. > :46:08.with it. You have an event heard me make any comments about any other
:46:09. > :46:13.town at any other time, apart from when you are going to use a public
:46:13. > :46:19.subsidy to compete with a private- sector company. That will put
:46:19. > :46:23.private sector investment at risk. Associated British Ports have been
:46:23. > :46:27.complaining all the time. That is a private company. We are willing to
:46:27. > :46:32.sit down and talk about the subsidy that we have had, the state subsidy,
:46:32. > :46:37.and we will discuss it with people and not with Southampton. If you do
:46:37. > :46:42.have to pay back any of this money, how is Liverpool going to afford
:46:42. > :46:47.this? You have only this week said to have got to make 50 million cuts.
:46:47. > :46:51.How would you fund it? That is why it is obscene when one council try
:46:51. > :46:55.to force another, in difficult times when we tried to get
:46:56. > :46:59.ourselves out of the recession, to force us to give money back to the
:47:00. > :47:05.Exchequer. But we have negotiated with the governor what we believe
:47:05. > :47:09.is a fair price based on depreciation. If you buy a new car
:47:09. > :47:16.for �10,000 or not be worth �10,000. We believe we have negotiated a
:47:16. > :47:19.fair price with the government. As far as the European Union is
:47:19. > :47:29.concerned, the councillors that let the European Union discuss it with
:47:29. > :47:42.
:47:42. > :47:46.this if they wish. Thanks very much. Now, it was meant as a measure to
:47:46. > :47:49.stop the tax payer funding empty rooms in other people's homes. The
:47:49. > :47:52.Welfare Reform Bill will clamp down on housing benefit for people in
:47:52. > :47:56.social housing who have unoccupied bedrooms. But the region's foster
:47:56. > :47:59.carers say some of them could end up losing up to �700 a year. And
:47:59. > :48:01.that's because foster children aren't considered part of a
:48:01. > :48:04.household. The issue's been highlighted by Crewe MP Edward
:48:04. > :48:06.Timpson, who heads the All Party Parliamentary Group on Fostering
:48:06. > :48:10.and Adoption. More than 20 children have called
:48:10. > :48:13.these rooms their home. Yvonne and her husband Alan live in a three-
:48:13. > :48:16.bedroom house and need the space to look after vunerable children.
:48:16. > :48:22.Under new welfare reforms, they could be forced to lose some of
:48:22. > :48:26.their housing benefit or move to a smaller house. You only get a
:48:26. > :48:29.certain amount of money to look after these children and the cost
:48:29. > :48:34.of leaving is so high so they're going to take this money virtually
:48:34. > :48:38.off the children. It is off the children, you're not going to go to
:48:38. > :48:42.get them as much. Long waiting lists and a shortage of social
:48:42. > :48:45.housing is at the root of the matter. The idea behind the Welfare
:48:45. > :48:52.Reform Bill is to give famillies who need the space suitable
:48:52. > :48:56.accomodation. According to the Welfare Minister a spare room in a
:48:56. > :49:00.house is a luxury society can no longer afford. It is difficult to
:49:00. > :49:04.know what impact this could have but the big concern is whether
:49:04. > :49:10.society can afford to have more children growing up in care homes.
:49:10. > :49:12.I am keen to make sure that particularly in towns like prudence
:49:12. > :49:15.at least like Liverpool and Manchester where there is a greater
:49:15. > :49:20.need for foster carers, that we do not put the foster carers who
:49:20. > :49:24.currently provide that service in a difficult financial situation which
:49:24. > :49:27.may you can have and to give up providing that service. St Helens
:49:27. > :49:30.in Merseyside is an area that could feel the impact- there are
:49:30. > :49:38.currently 158 foster families, but with 22 in social housing the
:49:38. > :49:43.implications could be far reaching. Sometimes these foster homes can
:49:43. > :49:48.have up to four or five children, siblings, so it is not to 22
:49:49. > :49:53.children, could be far more than that. This will drive us back into
:49:53. > :49:56.the independent sector. The independent sector does not give
:49:56. > :50:01.that family experience. People are working ships in a building but it
:50:01. > :50:05.is not a family. It could lead to more and more children going back
:50:05. > :50:12.into children's homes and we all know the outcomes of children being
:50:12. > :50:16.placed in children's homes. One of the other things could do today is
:50:16. > :50:19.a big campaign to recruit adoptive parents and and fostering. Last
:50:19. > :50:22.week, David Cameron warned that councils who didn't tackle the
:50:22. > :50:26.number of children needing to be adopted or fostered would be named
:50:26. > :50:34.and shamed. Today, The Fostering Network say he needs to get his own
:50:34. > :50:39.house in order. We had two government departments are going
:50:39. > :50:46.over this. The Department of work and pension say the foster care
:50:46. > :50:50.allowance should cover housing but they minimum allowances proposed by
:50:50. > :50:55.the Department for Education do not contain any element of housing.
:50:55. > :51:01.These are causing an immense problem for foster carers.
:51:01. > :51:04.Fostering is more than a job, it really is. You have got to want to
:51:05. > :51:12.look after a child and make a difference to their life. So I
:51:12. > :51:17.think we should be given by all the back-up that foster carers deserve.
:51:17. > :51:20.Without foster carers, where what does children to play? The Welfare
:51:20. > :51:24.Reform Bill is currently going through the committee stage of the
:51:24. > :51:26.House of Lords. But there is concern that some of the measures
:51:26. > :51:30.could force families to close the door on fostering.
:51:31. > :51:34.Well, the Department for Work and Pensions has given us a statement.
:51:34. > :51:38.It says: Under the reforms foster carers will continue to be treated
:51:38. > :51:42.in the same way as now. They will be able to receive Housing Benefit
:51:42. > :51:45.but the foster child will not be included in the assessment and any
:51:45. > :51:48.income from fostering allowances will be disregarded in full. They