:00:25. > :00:31.In Northern Ireland remembering our more recent past, can we ever agree
:00:31. > :00:34.on a single memorial to the Troubles?
:00:34. > :00:44.And when it comes to Europe, can our MEPs do anything to protect us
:00:44. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :32:09.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1884 seconds
:32:09. > :32:13.from the impact of the economic Welcome to the Politics Show in
:32:13. > :32:17.Northern Ireland. We have a European flavour to our programme
:32:17. > :32:22.this week as the volatility of far off financial markets has
:32:22. > :32:28.threatened livelihoods closer to home. We are paying a lot to
:32:28. > :32:33.Brussels in agricultural fines. We will also be asking if there is
:32:33. > :32:38.anything we can gain the broader sweep of European history.
:32:38. > :32:43.This is the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe, it stands
:32:43. > :32:47.in the centre of Berlin's. In its design and construction it proved
:32:47. > :32:52.controversial, but since it has opened it has attracted millions of
:32:52. > :33:02.visitors. Are there lessons that can be learnt from Germany and how
:33:02. > :33:02.
:33:03. > :33:06.it has dealt with its difficult This week in Greece and Italy we
:33:06. > :33:16.have had the resignation of political leaders. Casualties of a
:33:16. > :33:20.banking crisis which is threatening economic stability. I am joined by
:33:20. > :33:30.the Austrian minister MEP Jim Nicholsons. Where has it all gone
:33:30. > :33:35.wrong? -- the Ulster Unionist MEP. It went wrong at two years ago when
:33:35. > :33:41.you's response to the problem has always been too little, too late.
:33:41. > :33:45.The decision making process is long drawn-out. Ministers have to go to
:33:45. > :33:50.Brussels, they have to agree, then they have to go back and have
:33:50. > :33:55.agreement from their own parliament. By the time this is done, the world
:33:55. > :34:00.has moved on. The people in the financial sector, they have moved
:34:00. > :34:05.on to the next target. This weekend, all eyes will be on what is
:34:05. > :34:11.happening on Monday morning in the bond market. Where it is going to
:34:11. > :34:15.go. Will Berlusconi it be enough to see Italy through -- will
:34:15. > :34:20.Berlusconi stepping down at be enough to see Italy through? We saw
:34:20. > :34:25.their interest rates in France going up this week to just over 6%.
:34:25. > :34:35.That is in the danger zones. That is the area where by we have got to
:34:35. > :34:36.
:34:36. > :34:41.watch. We, who are in the sterling zone, can avoid the war that is
:34:41. > :34:46.going on, but we will be affected. We want to see stability returning
:34:46. > :34:50.to the Eurozone country. stability ever come back? Is the
:34:50. > :34:55.problem not that the whole idea is fatally flawed because there is too
:34:55. > :35:00.much to organise? The idea was fatally flawed and the beginning
:35:00. > :35:06.because they allowed countries, may miss out the figures to allow
:35:06. > :35:09.certain countries like Italy, Ireland and Portugal into the
:35:09. > :35:14.Eurozone when they were advised that they did not meet the criteria
:35:14. > :35:23.at that time. They are now paying the price. How worried should we
:35:23. > :35:28.be? We should be extremely worried. It has got to come to an end. The
:35:28. > :35:33.European leaders have got to be really decisive in making clear to
:35:33. > :35:39.the world markets, we are going to do bend which ever country it is.
:35:39. > :35:44.That is the first thing which will bring stability back. It will be a
:35:44. > :35:48.long road for recovery, but it will bring back stability. What is the
:35:48. > :35:54.point of the European Parliament? What can you do to influence
:35:54. > :35:58.decisions being made? These decisions are being dealt with by a
:35:58. > :36:04.the leaders in the euro as an area, and by it mainly Angela Merkel and
:36:04. > :36:09.Sarkozy. These two leaders have got elections to face next year in both
:36:09. > :36:16.countries. They do not want the instability to continues. What you
:36:16. > :36:22.will see is the Eurozone countries deepening and sharing more
:36:22. > :36:27.responsibility with an emerging European Bank being the guarantor
:36:27. > :36:30.of all of this. This is what will have to happen. Then you will be
:36:30. > :36:36.into a two speed Europe. The Eurozone countries will be on their
:36:36. > :36:41.own, and then there will be those outside the Eurozone. What does
:36:41. > :36:50.that mean for us if Ireland ends up in the second Tia and the UK end up
:36:50. > :36:57.in the first here? In Northern Ireland, we are at the only part
:36:57. > :37:03.that has a frontier with the Eurozone country. All the taxes
:37:03. > :37:07.could be different. New know what happens with taxation and the
:37:08. > :37:14.different price of petrol at this moment in time. Those are all areas
:37:14. > :37:19.that are unknown quantities to us at this time. Simply getting out of
:37:19. > :37:22.Europe does not solve the problem, it only increases the problem.
:37:22. > :37:27.Europe needs to solve their problem and the UK needs to decide how they
:37:27. > :37:32.want to be part of Europe, and then we should have a referendum as to
:37:32. > :37:35.where we stand within Europe. Another pressing issue for the
:37:35. > :37:42.Northern Irish economy is these enormous fines we are looking
:37:42. > :37:45.likely to have to pay. Where do you stand on that? The Executive has
:37:45. > :37:55.taken you to the European Court because they believe the finds are
:37:55. > :37:56.
:37:56. > :38:00.unwarranted. This is nothing to do with Europe, this is the European
:38:00. > :38:07.Court of auditors who have made a complaint and somehow we seem to
:38:07. > :38:13.have got ourselves into a position where we have been subject to have
:38:13. > :38:19.to pay some money because Europe claims and we made mistakes with
:38:19. > :38:23.our land. The maps of the fields of the island -- island of Ireland
:38:23. > :38:28.were laid when Ireland was one, before Northern Ireland or the
:38:28. > :38:32.Republic existed. No-one can tell me that the maps in the north or
:38:32. > :38:40.worse than those in the south. I think it is time for reality. I
:38:40. > :38:43.hope the Executive when this. It is worrying because it will be up to
:38:43. > :38:53.�130 million and it may have to go back to Europe at this present
:38:53. > :38:56.
:38:56. > :39:01.Poppy wreaths have been laid at Cenotaph us throughout Northern
:39:01. > :39:05.Ireland today honouring the war dead. 17 years after the IRA
:39:05. > :39:09.ceasefire and 13 years after the Good Friday Agreement, there is
:39:09. > :39:13.little to commemorate those who were killed during the Troubles and
:39:14. > :39:17.no agreement as to how their deaths should be marked. We have been to
:39:17. > :39:27.one city in Europe where remembrance and the design of
:39:27. > :39:28.
:39:28. > :39:32.Berlin, another city where past and present collide. Like Northern
:39:32. > :39:39.Ireland it now draws visitors to one time sites of conflict. It
:39:39. > :39:44.seems to have come to terms with its painful history, unlike us.
:39:44. > :39:49.history has become a bit of a theme park. In Germany no-one asks you
:39:49. > :39:54.what school you went to, or what school you go to. This is a
:39:54. > :40:00.memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe. It stands in Berlin. In its
:40:00. > :40:04.design and construction it proved controversial. Since it opened in
:40:04. > :40:08.2005, it has attracted millions of visitors. Are there lessons that
:40:08. > :40:16.can be learned by Germany and how it has done -- dealt with its
:40:16. > :40:20.difficult past. This memorial was a long time coming. It was
:40:20. > :40:26.controversial in many aspects because many Jews did not want to
:40:26. > :40:32.see it, many Germans did not want to see it. It is very strange that
:40:32. > :40:41.it is a monument by the perpetrators on their soil to the
:40:41. > :40:48.victims. That does not take place very often. One place that you will
:40:48. > :40:52.not find an elaborate memorial is the sight of Hitler's bunker.
:40:52. > :40:58.you are a German, it is very difficult to embrace this horrific
:40:58. > :41:08.past in a tasteful way. Not doing too much are enough. I think Berlin
:41:08. > :41:09.
:41:09. > :41:14.has a very nice balance. Standing here, on top of Hitler's bunker is
:41:14. > :41:22.an incredible experience. We had a tour of the Jewish areas, and we
:41:22. > :41:28.happened to be Jewish. It was, again, very touching. A lot of
:41:28. > :41:33.trepidation, having no idea as to what I would see and how it would
:41:33. > :41:40.be put trade, and how they would feel at being here, being Jewish.
:41:40. > :41:47.How has it been for you? It has been a very pleasant experience.
:41:47. > :41:52.More than a 55,000 Berlin Jews were murdered by the Nazis. The
:41:52. > :41:57.sculptures commemorate some of the victims. They stand near a
:41:57. > :42:01.synagogue which was set on fire by the Nazis. Now a major tourist
:42:01. > :42:06.attraction, it has been fully restored and is guarded round-the-
:42:06. > :42:14.clock, protection from possible attacks from neo-Nazis or Islamic
:42:14. > :42:23.terrorists. Confronting history is something praiseworthy that has
:42:23. > :42:27.happened in Germany. The memorials that we see today in Berlin, they
:42:28. > :42:32.are the result of many decades of discussion and dialogue. I think
:42:32. > :42:37.this is what is important about confronting history. It is a
:42:37. > :42:44.process and it needs to have everyone involved. Film director
:42:44. > :42:47.and tour guide, Calvin, has lived in Berlin for 12 years. He says
:42:47. > :42:51.Germans cannot escape their history but most have reached an
:42:51. > :42:57.accommodation of the past. When I take a group of young Germans
:42:57. > :43:01.around the city, they seem to have got over it a bit. They have got
:43:01. > :43:07.over it in the fact that in 2006 if you were here for the World Cup,
:43:07. > :43:16.you would see young Germans wearing a German flag again. Actually
:43:16. > :43:20.uniting, not in nationalism, it was more in togetherness. This summer,
:43:20. > :43:25.Germany's government and civic leaders commemorated the 50th
:43:25. > :43:31.anniversary of the Berlin Wall. At least 130 men women and children
:43:31. > :43:35.lost their lives trying to cross from east to west. Simple memorials
:43:35. > :43:41.let -- mark their deaths. Reunification has not been without
:43:41. > :43:45.its problems. There are still part of the former East Germany which
:43:45. > :43:53.have 35% unemployment. This myth that everything went right after
:43:53. > :43:58.the Wall came down, it is not actually true. It comes down to
:43:58. > :44:02.economics and politics, it does not come down to a sectarian divide in
:44:02. > :44:07.any shape or form. The memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe was
:44:07. > :44:11.completed 60 years after the end of the Second World War. Monuments for
:44:11. > :44:20.others murdered by the Nazis including homosexuals, gypsies and
:44:20. > :44:26.the disabled have taken even longer to be agreed and built. There is
:44:26. > :44:30.something to be said for forgetting, and there is a lot of things to be
:44:30. > :44:36.said for a taking time. A lot of water should go under the bridge
:44:36. > :44:42.before you figure out what should happen. Creating monuments to the
:44:42. > :44:51.fights and the war between Northern Ireland and the IRA, if that would
:44:51. > :44:57.be part of your history. It is also how you learn how in the Irish are.
:44:57. > :45:02.I am joined by victims Commissioner Patricia McBride and DUP MP Jeffrey
:45:02. > :45:07.Donaldson. Jeffrey Donaldson, have we dealt with it? I do not think we
:45:07. > :45:11.have. I think feelings in Northern Ireland still run high. There is
:45:11. > :45:18.still a rawness out there. When you look at what has happened in
:45:18. > :45:22.Enniskillen, we remember the Poppy Day massacre and the victims. A
:45:22. > :45:26.montage of the victims was erected at the local fire station with a
:45:26. > :45:32.poppy on it. And some Republicans objected because of the presence of
:45:32. > :45:38.the poppy. The montage was taken down. I think that level of
:45:38. > :45:42.disrespect, immaturity, towards those murdered on that occasion
:45:42. > :45:47.shows the level and distance we have yet to travel before we can
:45:47. > :45:52.come to some time of understanding on Remembrance. Patricia McBride,
:45:52. > :45:59.there are many other cases that are similar from both perspectives. How
:45:59. > :46:04.do we go forward? Have we left it too long, or not long enough?
:46:04. > :46:08.interested by the point about confronting history in the film.
:46:08. > :46:12.For victims and survivors that is something they do every day. Part
:46:12. > :46:17.of that is through the processes of historical investigations taking
:46:17. > :46:24.place, historical inquiries, the Police Ombudsman and public
:46:24. > :46:30.inquiries. We do confront history every day. It is a part of what
:46:30. > :46:35.makes people what they are. Whether there is a time that is right, do
:46:35. > :46:40.we wait, or do we proceed in trying to reach agreement, the fundamental
:46:41. > :46:45.issue is where do we start? We need to start with acknowledgement. We
:46:46. > :46:54.need to start with acknowledging that the lost, hurt and agreement
:46:54. > :46:59.that has happened in communities. Jeffrey Donaldson, do memorial so
:46:59. > :47:03.add to the division in some ways? If you choose one particular
:47:03. > :47:07.memorial to one particular incident, that is not really helping us do
:47:08. > :47:12.with our past and co-operate and share a future. As you heard in the
:47:12. > :47:16.report about Berlin, it has taken them many years to get to a point
:47:16. > :47:21.where they were able to agree on the appropriate form of
:47:21. > :47:24.commemorating what were, for them, very difficult and tragic events. I
:47:24. > :47:28.suspect in Northern Ireland we still have some distance to travel
:47:28. > :47:35.before we can arrive at eight point where we have agreed forms of
:47:35. > :47:40.memorial. There are many memorials across Northern Ireland, and indeed
:47:40. > :47:45.in family living rooms where there are photographs and memorabilia at
:47:45. > :47:50.of loved ones who were lost during the Troubles. Remembrance is a
:47:50. > :47:54.personal and private thing as well as being a collective thing. Do we
:47:54. > :47:58.need collective remembrance or should we leave it to the
:47:58. > :48:05.individual? There is something like 600 miles across Northern Ireland
:48:05. > :48:09.for trouble related incidents. -- 600 memorials. We need to
:48:09. > :48:14.concentrate on building the peace and building stability in Northern
:48:14. > :48:20.Ireland. We're not out of the woods yet. Maybe there will come a time
:48:20. > :48:24.when we can reflect on the journey we have undertaken and agree some
:48:24. > :48:30.form of memorial, perhaps here in Belfast or at an appropriate
:48:30. > :48:34.location. I do not think people are ready for that yet. We cannot even
:48:34. > :48:39.agree at the moment on the definition of a victim, never mind
:48:40. > :48:44.agree on a common form of memorial. Patricia McBride, that is a point.
:48:44. > :48:49.There is an argument about what makes a victim. The first point to
:48:49. > :48:55.go back to is the issue of the 600 memorials. What I would say about
:48:55. > :48:59.them is that they are individual. They may be specific to a
:48:59. > :49:02.particular community, or geographic area, but they do not share the
:49:02. > :49:06.story of the deaths of the individual that commemorate with
:49:06. > :49:11.the wider community. I would like to see us making moves towards
:49:11. > :49:15.doing that. There is no dispute over that definition of a victim,
:49:15. > :49:20.it is enshrined in legislation is. The legislation is there to serve
:49:20. > :49:24.those who are in need, and that is the people who have been bereaved,
:49:24. > :49:28.people who have been severely injured and those who care for them.
:49:28. > :49:32.It is a straightforward issue. It is about serving present needs. We
:49:32. > :49:36.have to remember that people need to commemorate those that they have
:49:36. > :49:40.lost and the lives that they have had which have been changed as a
:49:40. > :49:46.result of the conflict. Do you think we need a collective
:49:46. > :49:51.memorial? I think we have made huge strides towards creating spaces for
:49:51. > :49:54.dialogue. I think the fact that we have reached agreement within the
:49:54. > :49:59.Office of the first and Deputy First Minister about a way forward
:50:00. > :50:02.on long cash, that shows we may have a possibility, we are still in
:50:02. > :50:07.dialogue about that will contain but the fact we have that side to
:50:07. > :50:12.work upon is a huge step forward. I think initiatives like healing
:50:12. > :50:17.through remembering, annual day of reflection which takes place on
:50:17. > :50:22.21st June each year, this as building blocks for a community
:50:22. > :50:27.remembrance of all those who have died. Jeffrey Donaldson, do you
:50:27. > :50:32.think the state should fund these memorials? If they are not helping
:50:32. > :50:36.healing, they are in some ways adding to the division. Why should
:50:36. > :50:41.the government be paying for them? Right now I think the priority is
:50:41. > :50:46.to fund, support and care for the victims. There is still a great
:50:46. > :50:53.need out there and that pasta be the priority for government funding.
:50:53. > :50:57.Support to that victims, people need that support. But in terms of
:50:57. > :51:01.memorials we will not support something which glorify is that
:51:02. > :51:05.terrorism of the last 40 years in Northern Ireland. One of the things
:51:05. > :51:10.we can look at is providing an opportunity for people to tell
:51:10. > :51:15.their story of their experience of the Troubles. The BBC had a very
:51:15. > :51:18.powerful series on Radio just a few years ago. There was an opportunity
:51:19. > :51:23.for people just to talk about an experience they had during the
:51:23. > :51:27.Troubles. I think that set a standard that might be followed.
:51:27. > :51:31.That we would provide people with an opportunity to tell their story
:51:31. > :51:35.about what happened to them during the Troubles. It is important we
:51:35. > :51:42.have a record of that for future generations. Is that something you
:51:42. > :51:45.would support, Patricia? Absolutely. Storytelling can be very valuable,
:51:45. > :51:50.but more importantly it is how the stories are heard, acknowledged and