:00:05. > :00:07.Hello and welcome to the Politics Show. Last time he was was here he
:00:07. > :00:11.threatened to resign over the Government's plans for the NHS.
:00:11. > :00:13.Today Norman Lamb returns to the Politics Show - is he ready to
:00:13. > :00:23.declare victory? We'll also hear from Labour's
:00:23. > :00:28.
:00:28. > :00:31.health spokesman in a tricky week On the Politics Show in Scotland,
:00:31. > :00:35.we'll talk to the Finance Secretary about soaring power prices. We'll
:00:35. > :00:38.ask: can the UK government's new work programme really do the job?
:00:38. > :00:42.There's a look back at a week of wrangling between Holyrood and
:00:42. > :00:45.Westminster.. And is it one referendum, or two? We'll also
:00:45. > :00:48.discuss this: It's what can happen when what women wear becomes a
:00:48. > :00:58.political issue. It's happening in Scotland and it's called the
:00:58. > :00:58.
:00:58. > :20:58.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1199 seconds
:20:58. > :21:01.The government wants to understand from Scottish Power exactly why
:21:01. > :21:07.that is the case. Scottish Power says it is looking forward to
:21:07. > :21:10.meeting Mr Swinney. Andy Murray has the chance to win
:21:10. > :21:14.his first title this year is the takes on Jo-Wilfried Tsonga of
:21:14. > :21:17.France. The match has been moved forward to 12 o'clock due to a
:21:17. > :21:23.forecast of heavy rain. The world No. 4 played some of his best
:21:23. > :21:26.tennis taking less than an hour to beat Andy Roddick 6-163. The
:21:26. > :21:30.forecast for the rest of the day is going to be a mainly bright
:21:30. > :21:34.afternoon with sunny spells. Temperatures peaking at around 16
:21:34. > :21:39.Celsius. Later, cloud will thicken in the south to bring rain to the
:21:39. > :21:43.central belt by evening. Overnight, the rain will spread north and
:21:43. > :21:47.become more persistent. It will turn later for the South with
:21:47. > :21:52.strong winds around the coast. Temperatures will drop to six
:21:52. > :21:58.Celsius or seven Celsius. That is the news for now, our next update
:21:58. > :22:00.is at 4:50pm. Thank you. It has been described as
:22:00. > :22:05.the centrepiece of the most sweeping changes to the welfare
:22:05. > :22:08.system and more than 60 years. But, while the West as a government's
:22:08. > :22:13.new Work Programme actually work. The scheme aims to get millions of
:22:13. > :22:15.people across the UK of benefits and into employment. Over the last
:22:15. > :22:20.six months, our reporter Hayley Jarvis has been following the
:22:20. > :22:24.progress of four people looking for work in Glasgow. One has since
:22:24. > :22:33.found a job but Haley has caught up with the rest to ask them if they
:22:33. > :22:40.think it will become easier to find a job.
:22:40. > :22:45.This will be a brief interview. Brian Jones has been out to work
:22:45. > :22:48.for more than one year. He is taking part in a mock interview at
:22:48. > :22:52.an office and Hamilton. The employment company will only get
:22:52. > :22:58.government money if they find him a job and he stays and it for at
:22:58. > :23:02.least six months. He will get further payments -- they will get
:23:02. > :23:09.further payments the longer he remains and work. Could this be a
:23:09. > :23:11.solution to long-term unemployment? The coalition think so. They have
:23:11. > :23:18.awarded two company's contracts to deliver this Work Programme in
:23:18. > :23:21.Scotland. It is one single employment programme that will
:23:21. > :23:26.provide integrated support to people. We will be working with
:23:26. > :23:30.people for longer than we have in previous programmes, twice as long.
:23:30. > :23:35.That additional time will allow us to spend more time with people who
:23:36. > :23:40.are further away from work and need that much more support. Could this
:23:40. > :23:46.payment by results approached we'd private contractors just to focus
:23:46. > :23:49.on areas where they are more likely to find people work. One of the
:23:49. > :23:52.fundamental parts of the Work Programme is that the government
:23:52. > :23:58.has recognised their people out there who are much harder to help.
:23:58. > :24:02.As such, them into money that we need to investigate those people
:24:02. > :24:07.into work is significantly more for those individuals. The programme is
:24:07. > :24:10.about making sure everyone gets access to the help they need.
:24:10. > :24:17.Unemployment in Scotland fell during the first quarter this year
:24:17. > :24:21.to just over 200,000. Does it feel easier for those looking for work?
:24:21. > :24:24.A farewell lunch at Langside College, where William Ralph and
:24:24. > :24:28.has just finished a skills for employment course. He has been
:24:28. > :24:36.trying to find a job for 10 months and has now started to cast his net
:24:36. > :24:46.a little wider. Assistant Baker at ASDA. Railway conductor with first
:24:46. > :24:47.
:24:47. > :24:52.Got Mail. Paisley Arts Centre. It has been wide and varied, and again
:24:52. > :24:56.I have applied to go back into the industry came from, the
:24:56. > :25:00.telecommunications industry. Something I did not want to do but
:25:00. > :25:07.needs must. He believes it is getting more difficult to find a
:25:07. > :25:11.job. Speaking to my course colleagues and other people, it is
:25:11. > :25:19.getting more difficult to find a job at this moment in time. In the
:25:19. > :25:23.back of my mind, I still think my age might be a problem. 23-year-old
:25:23. > :25:27.Hannah Nicholson works part-time but skills -- still scours internet
:25:27. > :25:30.pages in the hope of finding a graduate job in publishing. While
:25:30. > :25:35.more optimistic about the future, she never thought it would be the
:25:35. > :25:40.stuff to get the job she wants. did not think you may be difficult
:25:40. > :25:47.at all. I was 18 when I went to university and at that point, I
:25:47. > :25:52.thought, and my wife is ahead of me. This will be a new adventure, and
:25:52. > :25:56.for the most part it has been. I like to think I might get a
:25:56. > :26:04.graduate job. I have made a new year's resolution that they will
:26:04. > :26:08.get a new job this year. Onwards and upwards. Susan Walker is
:26:08. > :26:14.getting tips from her adviser at Glasgow's Regeneration Agency,
:26:14. > :26:17.ahead of a job interview she has that afternoon. The 59-year-old
:26:17. > :26:21.took voluntary redundancy from her job and banking to produce --
:26:22. > :26:27.pursue a career in the care sector. She has just finished a course on
:26:27. > :26:33.caring skills. They help I got from people on the course was fantastic.
:26:33. > :26:37.I have finished the course now and they're still helping me. Despite
:26:38. > :26:42.the prospect of an interview, she doesn't believe it is any easier to
:26:42. > :26:47.find work than when she first started looking nine months ago.
:26:47. > :26:52.is no better than I said before. It is very difficult and I do not
:26:52. > :26:57.think it is getting any easier. Maybe I feel better because I am
:26:58. > :27:01.trying to focus on one thing. I was applying for all different jobs,
:27:01. > :27:10.and I am still having to do that, but I am focusing on the care
:27:10. > :27:13.sector. I just can see the job situation getting much better.
:27:13. > :27:17.will get a health check on the labour market by way of the latest
:27:17. > :27:22.unemployment figures and a few days' time.
:27:22. > :27:27.Joining me here in the studio, Laurie Russell from the Glasgow
:27:27. > :27:33.volunteer organisation, The Wise Group. We also have Christian Ross
:27:33. > :27:38.from it think tank Centre for Social Justice. Laurie Russell,
:27:38. > :27:41.first of all, do you think this programme is a good idea? I think
:27:41. > :27:44.it is essentially a good idea. My worry is the government is doing it
:27:44. > :27:48.on the cheap and are not spending sufficient funds and supporting
:27:48. > :27:54.people who have a series of issues about their lives and lifestyles
:27:54. > :27:57.that the need to address to get into work. My biggest worry is I do
:27:57. > :28:01.not think the jobs are out there for the number of people that want
:28:01. > :28:05.work and could be supported and to work. A recent statistic in the
:28:05. > :28:09.Glasgow Herald talked about 40 people chasing every job and West
:28:09. > :28:13.Dunbartonshire. That is repeated in other parts of Scotland. We're not
:28:13. > :28:23.yet creating the jobs that people who are not in work would like to
:28:23. > :28:28.
:28:28. > :28:33.It is important to see the Work Programme at as important. The
:28:33. > :28:39.universal creditable in sensitise people to work in a way that they
:28:39. > :28:42.haven't been incentivised before. Secondly, for employers, a well
:28:42. > :28:46.incentivised job creation because all of a sudden, you have people
:28:46. > :28:53.who can take flexibility in the workplace and they can take a job
:28:53. > :28:58.for 10 hours, whereas before it was rigid. You had 16 hours or 32 hours
:28:58. > :29:07.or full-time. The second part is the work programme macro. They are
:29:07. > :29:11.able to broaden horizons, Spock One of the criticisms is the way
:29:11. > :29:14.this has been structured, because they don't make money until they
:29:14. > :29:18.place people in work, there is pressure on them to ignore the
:29:18. > :29:23.people who most need support and equally to pressurise the
:29:23. > :29:26.honourable people into jobs that are unsuitable for them. In terms
:29:26. > :29:32.of the fine a point, the way the work programme is structured is you
:29:32. > :29:36.have to sustain the work. People will be paid if they help people
:29:36. > :29:43.stay in work for a year or two years. That deals with the point
:29:43. > :29:47.about checking people in at any old job. There are concerns about the
:29:47. > :29:51.funding structures. It is early days and the Government should be
:29:51. > :29:55.careful to review the ongoing nature of the payment process and
:29:55. > :29:59.how the work programme is delivered. It is to demonstrate that they can
:29:59. > :30:02.deliver. Brilliant organisations have been but we need more of that.
:30:03. > :30:09.They make the case for why they deserve more money. The Government
:30:09. > :30:16.is trying to straddle venue for -- value for money with attacks bowl
:30:16. > :30:23.with paying providers properly. It is important they do this properly.
:30:23. > :30:27.It is early days. Is it not the case that 88 % of the major
:30:27. > :30:33.contracts went to profit-making companies. Some are saying the
:30:33. > :30:38.charities have been used as eating can he for this. I agree. The
:30:38. > :30:46.Government guidance in the bidding process was that 30 % of the supply
:30:46. > :30:51.chain should be third sector. We had at least 30 % and we were
:30:52. > :30:56.delivering around 40 % ourselves. We had a third sector dominating
:30:56. > :31:00.the chain. In Scotland, the third sector has been very good over a
:31:00. > :31:06.number of years in these types of programmes. I don't object to
:31:06. > :31:10.payment by results. Part of what the third sector has to realise is
:31:10. > :31:16.that we have to be just as accountable for the quality and the
:31:16. > :31:20.performance of our programmes as anybody else. It is not something
:31:20. > :31:23.that the third sector would disagree with. Part of the problem
:31:23. > :31:31.is the funds have been required in the early stages of the programme
:31:31. > :31:38.which has led to be consultant -- big companies to get involved in
:31:38. > :31:43.this type of programme. They need a turnover of what? It was 20 million.
:31:43. > :31:50.Some charities can do that. There was one input London that did get a
:31:50. > :31:54.contract. We would have been supported by a bank's. You feel you
:31:54. > :31:58.would have had a better insight into the local area? What would be
:31:58. > :32:02.the advantage of the charities doing it? It is the charities that
:32:02. > :32:06.would have worked with us. We know their communities, customers and we
:32:06. > :32:13.recruit people who have been unemployed or been in prison or had
:32:13. > :32:16.some difficulty. They can empathise with the customers. We know what
:32:16. > :32:23.the employee is in our region and we know they are looking for and we
:32:23. > :32:28.have delivered for -- delivered to meet their needs. Actually it would
:32:28. > :32:31.have been more responsive to local needs if they had better utilised
:32:31. > :32:36.the charities on the ground who know the area and to know the job
:32:36. > :32:40.structures. I think there is a natural sense that in the initial
:32:40. > :32:44.bidding process in the prime contractors, 80 % has gone to the
:32:44. > :32:50.private sector because than that -- is a national sense that they have
:32:50. > :32:54.the capital. Days emphasis placed on them working with the smaller
:32:54. > :33:00.charities at the sub contracting level. 48-50 % of those that are
:33:00. > :33:05.winning sub-contracts are charities. Pressure will be put on the -- will
:33:05. > :33:09.be put on white told to make sure those charities, this brilliant
:33:09. > :33:14.organisations are on the ground. -- the Whitehall. The larger contracts
:33:14. > :33:20.have gone to the larger organisations that will sub-
:33:20. > :33:25.contract out. Finally, it is a tall order to place people in work,
:33:25. > :33:31.hopefully for years who have been unable to work for a very long time.
:33:31. > :33:35.That is a tall order to fulfil. is difficult and there have been
:33:35. > :33:39.people that have been nowhere near the work force. There has been a
:33:39. > :33:42.group that hasn't been able to engage in the workforce. This is
:33:42. > :33:47.why charities are so well place and where the Government has realised
:33:47. > :33:52.it is not best placed to get people back into work. It is the personal
:33:52. > :33:55.touch that charities can of the people. They can build horizons and
:33:55. > :34:00.build new it skills bases. We have the best people on the job through
:34:00. > :34:04.the work programme and is challenging. There is an interest
:34:04. > :34:08.and a passion for doing this work and I hope that it will deliver.
:34:08. > :34:13.The interest in the work programme has been huge and it is exciting.
:34:13. > :34:17.It is to a ball. Thank you very much for that. Will
:34:17. > :34:22.have a catch up with you in a few months' time.
:34:22. > :34:26.The power struggle between Holyrood and Westminster intensified Astor -
:34:26. > :34:29.- after a series of ministerial meetings. A row erupted when
:34:29. > :34:34.Michael Moore suggested a second referendum on independence should
:34:34. > :34:37.be held. The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, Anatoly route would get
:34:37. > :34:43.early access to borrowing powers but equally want that demands for
:34:43. > :34:47.further powers could not be considered without more detail.
:34:47. > :34:50.The constitutional row began on Monday when the Scottish Secretary,
:34:50. > :34:54.Michael Moore, suggested they should be a second referendum on
:34:54. > :34:59.independence for Scotland could separate from the union. An
:34:59. > :35:01.advisory held by Holyrood and a second held by Westminster,
:35:01. > :35:06.Spedding -- spelling out the divorce terms between Scotland and
:35:06. > :35:10.the rest of the UK. The First Minister dismissed his view as
:35:10. > :35:13.Wittering and irrelevant nonsense. By Wednesday, Alex Salmond was
:35:13. > :35:18.cranking up the pressure on the Prime Minister, David Cameron, to
:35:18. > :35:21.do a better job of helping Scotland's economy. The meeting at
:35:21. > :35:26.Downing Street was their first since the SNP's historic election
:35:26. > :35:31.when. The first Mr demanded that Mr Cameron Report his economic policy
:35:31. > :35:37.and reduce the farming can be to stimulate the Scottish economy.
:35:37. > :35:42.John Swinney put forward our Plan B, our call for urgent flexibility in
:35:42. > :35:46.the air autonomy. That is increased capital investment, a fair and
:35:46. > :35:49.rigorous attempt to get bank lending going to a medium-sized
:35:49. > :35:53.businesses and the most important thing of getting can seem and
:35:53. > :35:57.economic confidence back in the economy. It was the Deputy Prime
:35:57. > :36:00.Minister, Nick Clegg, visit that brought with it a constitutional
:36:00. > :36:05.concession. He offered Holly read access to borrowing powers which
:36:05. > :36:09.would give it -- blip -- which would give around �200 million to
:36:09. > :36:15.fund projects like the Frukt -- Forth Bridge. What welcomed, the
:36:15. > :36:19.power doesn't go as far as the wider list Alex Salmond has called
:36:19. > :36:23.for. They include control over corporation tax and alcohol excise
:36:23. > :36:28.duties as well as control over the Crown Estate which is important
:36:28. > :36:32.when it comes to renewable energy. He wants more power over
:36:32. > :36:37.broadcasting and a stronger voice in Europe. How likely is it that
:36:37. > :36:42.the UK Government will give up such powers? I am prepared to look at
:36:42. > :36:48.any good ideas and thought through ideas. We haven't seen the detail
:36:48. > :36:53.yet. There is -- you cannot respond to a press release, you have to
:36:53. > :36:57.respond to well thought through ideas. If you want to create new
:36:57. > :37:01.powers for Scotland, which work for Scotland than in the future, they
:37:01. > :37:06.have to be thought through. Throughout the week, thoughts
:37:06. > :37:16.suggest that he had distance himself from the Secretary's
:37:16. > :37:17.
:37:17. > :37:22.comments at. -- distanced. Mike Kim Wall -- Michael Moore didn't
:37:22. > :37:29.acknowledge this. I haven't changed the opinion that I have voiced. I
:37:29. > :37:34.am setting it in the broader context. A constitutional debate
:37:34. > :37:38.which we have said is for the First Minister to bring forward his
:37:39. > :37:41.referendum. We need to see what it is about. The UK Government is
:37:41. > :37:44.reported to be setting up an anti- independence campaign which
:37:44. > :37:50.suggests the constitutional battle between Westminster and hollow reed
:37:50. > :37:58.is about to get a clear. The five back to see the Union is about to
:37:58. > :38:04.get started. -- Holyrood. Joining us now is at Lord Steel,
:38:04. > :38:09.the former Holyrood presiding officer. He led to the commission
:38:09. > :38:12.that led on to fiscal federalism. Think you for coming in. Do you
:38:12. > :38:17.think Michael Moore was right to make the, as he did about their
:38:17. > :38:20.having to be two referendums? think he was technically correct.
:38:20. > :38:25.If there is an advisory referendum in Scotland, that doesn't have
:38:25. > :38:29.effect. The referendum is a reserved matter. Westminster has to
:38:29. > :38:32.decide. It would be better if we had one. There would mean
:38:32. > :38:37.Corporation between the best Minstead Government and Scotland.
:38:37. > :38:46.That is what people are prepared to see. This argument that one
:38:46. > :38:50.referendum would have a mandate to discuss. Is that a necessary?
:38:50. > :38:53.would be far better if the Scottish Government agreed with the
:38:53. > :38:57.Westminster Government. The question that needs to be put to
:38:57. > :39:07.the Scottish people, which fundamentally, is, do you want to
:39:07. > :39:12.stay in the UK or not? That is the big issue. What about the Commons?
:39:12. > :39:16.He was technically correct. One of the things that is disturbing me
:39:16. > :39:20.about the Scottish Government's reaction is you put it yourself a
:39:20. > :39:25.minute ago, dealing with the issue. They accuse him of Wittering. It is
:39:25. > :39:30.like the insults that they were directing at the Scottish court.
:39:30. > :39:34.This megaphone diplomacy is not the way to run the Government and it
:39:34. > :39:38.runs counter to what Alex Salmond was saying when he gave the
:39:38. > :39:42.impression that he was going to be listening, that he was going to be
:39:42. > :39:47.dealing in a consensual way with the Westminster Government. We are
:39:47. > :39:52.getting the impression that this could his Government was taken away
:39:53. > :39:59.with arrogance. I hope we get back to it and get more co-operation
:39:59. > :40:02.between both sides. The other argument is that the Scottish
:40:02. > :40:07.Secretary really doesn't understand the culture here. He doesn't
:40:07. > :40:12.understand the whole dynamic that is happening here and what he said
:40:12. > :40:18.was inappropriate and demonstrates how far out of touch he is. If the
:40:18. > :40:23.fact is that the SNP have got a clear majority but the referendum
:40:23. > :40:28.issue is one for Westminster. The two should get together. So long as
:40:28. > :40:33.we have megaphone diplomacy come from the Scottish Government, it is
:40:33. > :40:37.not... If there is friction created, this is a mistake. They should co-
:40:37. > :40:41.operate on getting a single referendum question clearly
:40:41. > :40:45.expressed where people can decide what to do. From the powers you
:40:45. > :40:50.would like to have seen come to Scotland through your commission,
:40:50. > :40:56.how similar are they in terms of the specifics and the objectives to
:40:56. > :41:00.what the SNP Government is asking for? The commission did go further
:41:00. > :41:07.than the present drafting of the Scotland Bill. You have to remember
:41:07. > :41:12.what happened, the steel Commission import into the commission was an
:41:12. > :41:16.all party won. The SNP stayed out of it which was unfortunate. It was
:41:16. > :41:24.a consensual arrangement preen the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib
:41:24. > :41:30.Dems. Labour has given the Lib Dems everything that they wanted. That
:41:30. > :41:34.is the nature of politics and we can win the Scotland been -- and
:41:34. > :41:38.when the Scotland Bill gets to the House of Lords, other issues will
:41:38. > :41:43.be worth exploring. As Nick Clegg was saying earlier in your
:41:43. > :41:51.interview, it is up to the Scottish Government to come forward with
:41:51. > :41:54.proposals to put to the Westminster Government. Do you have frustration
:41:54. > :41:58.that is seen as possibly that people could accuse your colleagues
:41:58. > :42:03.are -- in Westminster of repeating the Tory line? The Lib Dem
:42:03. > :42:09.colleagues are saying what the Tories want to say. They are
:42:09. > :42:12.slowing momentum here do you think? I didn't follow the passage of the
:42:12. > :42:16.Scotland Bill through the House of Commons in any great detail. It is
:42:16. > :42:22.not coming to us in the House of Lords and to the autumn. Again, the
:42:22. > :42:31.Lib Dems have gone along with the consensus of the Calman Commission.
:42:31. > :42:34.That is inevitable. If we want to merge it forward, it is up to the
:42:34. > :42:38.Government in Edinburgh to come up with proposals that we can consider.
:42:38. > :42:43.There is every opportunity to do that. It has got to be done between
:42:43. > :42:46.the Government, between the parties, rather than shouting over the
:42:46. > :42:51.airways which is what tends to happen at the moment. Lord Steel,
:42:51. > :42:56.thank you for that. Joining us from our Dundee studio is the Finance
:42:56. > :43:00.Secretary, John Swinney. Thanks for coming in. What you make of Lord
:43:01. > :43:04.Steel's, is that there has been too much megaphone diplomacy, I was
:43:04. > :43:09.going to say that but it is the wrong word. Inevitably in politics,
:43:09. > :43:13.there's always a lot of hot language kicking around. The
:43:13. > :43:17.substance of what David Steel was saying there, not surprisingly, is
:43:17. > :43:24.enormously helpful to the debate because what Lord Steel was making
:43:24. > :43:28.the case for a, was an ambitious agenda of constitutional change. At
:43:28. > :43:32.the heart of the agenda for it still commission which he presided
:43:32. > :43:35.over, I think gave a different of - - and above different areas where
:43:35. > :43:40.we can make progress on the constitutional issues in Scotland
:43:40. > :43:43.where it brings people together. There is a lot that is substantial
:43:44. > :43:48.and that we would want to take forward. He must be encouraged by
:43:48. > :43:52.his Commons weather has been of this argument for that the
:43:52. > :43:56.electorate is reluctant to hand the SNP a blank cheque Gonesse. There
:43:56. > :43:59.could be an argument that says have won a referendum that allows you to
:43:59. > :44:05.negotiate and to get momentum. When you come to the second referendum,
:44:05. > :44:11.on the details, that momentum is behind you. Lord Steel has said
:44:11. > :44:14.that is rubbish. That must be encouraging? The point on the
:44:14. > :44:17.referendum is to follow where this debate is going since the election.
:44:17. > :44:21.The Prime Minister said the Scottish Government was free to get
:44:21. > :44:24.on with the referendum that he would put no obstacles in their way.
:44:24. > :44:28.That is the official line of the United Kingdom Government. It
:44:28. > :44:33.doesn't get any clearer than when you hear it from the Prime Minister.
:44:33. > :44:37.That is the approach that we are taking and what the Secretary of
:44:37. > :44:41.State for Scotland is saying, is that he doesn't represent the way
:44:41. > :44:46.it should be taken forward. I am glad Lord Steel has given such a
:44:46. > :44:49.clear opinion this morning that the single referendum approach which
:44:49. > :44:53.does coughed -- Scottish Government intensity into Parliament in the
:44:53. > :44:58.latter part of this parliamentary term, is the right way to proceed.
:44:58. > :45:08.If we look now about your concerns about the hike in energy bills,
:45:08. > :45:09.
:45:09. > :45:12.what you hope will come at this We obviously have a very deep
:45:12. > :45:16.concern about the rise in energy prices set out by Scottish Power
:45:16. > :45:21.this week. I thickened is important we have a discussion with Scottish
:45:21. > :45:26.Power about all the issues that are involved in these decisions. Quite
:45:26. > :45:31.clearly, we have an agenda as a government to try to tackle fuel
:45:32. > :45:36.poverty and to improve energy efficiency. The last thing I want
:45:36. > :45:41.to see is all that good work undermined by significant increases
:45:41. > :45:44.in energy prices. This would just drive higher levels of fuel poverty
:45:44. > :45:48.would in Scotland. We will be seeking to explore with Scottish
:45:49. > :45:53.Power all these questions, to form an understanding of the challenges
:45:53. > :45:59.they face and of the issues that we can concentrate on to try to tackle
:45:59. > :46:02.this problem. Is it not the case you government has said very
:46:02. > :46:07.ambitious renewable energy targets and then ordered to pay for those,
:46:07. > :46:10.the Bills have to go up. There is a direct correlation between the
:46:10. > :46:16.energy programme you legitimately want to bring in and the actual
:46:16. > :46:21.costs to these companies? It is not the case. What we saw this week was
:46:21. > :46:26.an increase in gas prices by 19%. As I understand it, that is driven
:46:26. > :46:33.by the wholesale gas market. That is something that is of very deep
:46:33. > :46:37.concern. One of the other issues we have to wrestle with is this whole
:46:37. > :46:42.debate about future energy sources, is about transmission charges.
:46:42. > :46:46.About half of the total transmission charges in the United
:46:46. > :46:49.Kingdom today are paid for by Scottish companies. We are seeking
:46:49. > :46:56.a very significant reform of the transmission charges regime within
:46:56. > :47:00.the United Kingdom, to make it more easy up -- make it easier and more
:47:00. > :47:04.affordable to develop alternative sources of energy to those of today.
:47:05. > :47:09.We have to face that debate because the requirements of the climate Act
:47:09. > :47:14.forces to do so. There is a whole agenda that have to be explored
:47:14. > :47:21.here to ensure we can tackle both the continuity of supply issues and
:47:21. > :47:24.also the energy prices issue. to be clear on this, is that your
:47:24. > :47:29.argument there is no correlation between you renewables targets and
:47:29. > :47:33.the rise in the energy bills? is my position. What we're trying
:47:33. > :47:38.to tackle the issue of transmission charges which we acknowledge is a
:47:38. > :47:44.significant issue in addressing the cost of production of alternative
:47:44. > :47:48.energy sources. If we get that right, we will be in a position to
:47:48. > :47:56.deliver, I think him a long term, the kind of affordable energy
:47:56. > :48:00.prices people in Scotland expect. Is there such a thing as
:48:00. > :48:05.inappropriate dress for women and girls, and how much if it all
:48:05. > :48:09.should the Government get involved in shaping the debate? It may seem
:48:09. > :48:14.an extraordinary question to ask in this day and age, but as David
:48:14. > :48:23.Allison reports, female attire is now a political issue?
:48:23. > :48:28.Toronto Canada. The first so-called slutwalk. The culture we live and
:48:28. > :48:34.perpetuates the idea that rape survivors somehow asked for the
:48:34. > :48:37.experience. The demonstration was sparked after a Toronto police
:48:37. > :48:44.constable told university students that women should avoid dressing
:48:44. > :48:49.like sluts in order not to be victimised. Slutwalk protests have
:48:49. > :48:54.mushroomed around the world. There was one in Glasgow last weekend and
:48:54. > :49:02.another set for Edinburgh next week. One of those who will be marching
:49:02. > :49:08.in Edinburgh is with me now. It is not uncommon to hear people say it
:49:08. > :49:11.is up to do a victim to take care of themselves. This has been piling
:49:11. > :49:15.up and piling up and for some reason, this has been the incident
:49:15. > :49:21.that has done it. I think it is a good thing that it has trigger this
:49:21. > :49:27.movement. You and I are talking about rape and a con --
:49:27. > :49:32.conversational sense. The furore it over remarks made by the Justice
:49:32. > :49:35.Secretary Kenneth Clarke last month showed just how dangerous it can be
:49:35. > :49:41.for politicians when the comment on issues like rape and say that some
:49:41. > :49:44.cases are more serious than others. Kenneth Clarke was forced to do it
:49:45. > :49:48.two interviews with the BBC in the space of a few hours to try to
:49:48. > :49:54.extricate himself from a political scandal of his own making. At the
:49:54. > :49:58.other end of the spectrum, the government acting over clothing.
:49:58. > :50:02.Alongside clothing, an independent review has been of no the impact of
:50:02. > :50:06.magazines and television in sexual rising children. The report carried
:50:06. > :50:11.out by the mothers Union says it is now up to the government to
:50:11. > :50:14.consider and work out what they do next. The move towards a more
:50:14. > :50:19.specialised society is not necessarily a deliberate move. It
:50:19. > :50:25.is perhaps more of an unthinking rift. That is a concern for parents
:50:25. > :50:30.and the Express that very clearly. They also do not want to rub their
:50:30. > :50:37.children up in cotton wool. They want to see society as a whole with
:50:37. > :50:44.a more healthy and thoughtful approach. What would have been for
:50:44. > :50:50.grown-ups only 60 a 70 years now no longer raises an eyebrow. This is a
:50:51. > :50:58.line that keeps moving. Should these magazines be covered? Is this
:50:58. > :51:02.video suitable for an eight-year- old? All people can see images that
:51:02. > :51:07.should sometimes be broadly defined as sexual act. Everyone has access
:51:07. > :51:11.to that. Whether are not the actual issue is can you see what children
:51:11. > :51:16.so they do not have access to certain images and society? Of
:51:16. > :51:22.course you cannot. A I think to try to legislate in terms of the mass
:51:22. > :51:25.of commercialisation is inevitably going to lead to some difficulties.
:51:25. > :51:31.What we really need to look at is building up the resilience of
:51:32. > :51:37.children, and that comes really from responsible parenting and from
:51:37. > :51:44.good reading of her children. This would let them cope and be
:51:44. > :51:50.resilient. We need to look at what they need to grow up reasonably in
:51:50. > :51:54.a society. There has already been changed. Tesco no longer sells a
:51:54. > :52:00.pole dancing set on its website. WH Smith no longer sells playboys
:52:00. > :52:08.stationery. BhS have stopped stocking underwear with the Little
:52:08. > :52:16.Miss naughty wall. What connects restrictions with what is sold to
:52:16. > :52:20.young girls and the freedom of young women? I think it is a much
:52:20. > :52:25.deeper issue. It is one that will be quite problematic to get into
:52:25. > :52:30.and fix. Changing the law is one thing. Changing attitudes is
:52:30. > :52:33.another. For politicians, it is a tricky balancing act between the
:52:33. > :52:43.rights and responsibilities of business, parents and media, and
:52:43. > :52:43.
:52:44. > :52:47.those taking part in the slutwalk. David Allison there. With the now,
:52:47. > :52:54.the Conservative MSP Margaret Mitchell and Lesley-Anne Pearson,
:52:54. > :52:58.one of the organisers of the Edinburgh slutwalk. What sort of
:52:58. > :53:02.attitudes the what a challenge with the slutwalk? Remain attitude we
:53:02. > :53:07.would like to challenge is the concept that a victim of rape can
:53:07. > :53:10.ever be held responsible for what has happened to them. Rape is an
:53:10. > :53:14.awful crime regardless of the circumstances, and there seems to
:53:14. > :53:23.be an insidious attitude in society at the moment, that if a woman was
:53:23. > :53:28.drinking or flirting or about sex and drink from a man at a bar, then
:53:28. > :53:31.she is somehow responsible for what happens to her. It is these
:53:31. > :53:36.attitudes that stop women from reporting rapes and allows this to
:53:36. > :53:41.continue. Headier things that permeates through? Are you looking
:53:41. > :53:49.at rape convictions and Scotland? You can separate rape convictions
:53:49. > :53:58.into two halves. You have the six or 7% figure given by David Cameron
:53:58. > :54:04.recently, and this is off rapes reported. The conviction rate in
:54:05. > :54:08.Scotland is very low still. Have the problem is women are not going
:54:08. > :54:11.to the police, and there was a recent report by a London charity
:54:11. > :54:15.that said one of the main reasons people do not reports rape and
:54:15. > :54:20.sexual assault to police, is because they are ashamed, and they
:54:20. > :54:23.should never have to be ashamed. This attitude that if you press
:54:23. > :54:29.this way it is somehow your fault has to be stopped. Are you
:54:29. > :54:33.surprised by the momentum that has now? I was a little surprised, but
:54:33. > :54:39.I was very pleased. It is so exciting to see so many people
:54:39. > :54:45.getting on board and be willing to stand up. You lead a committee that
:54:45. > :54:50.look that this debate between adult women saying we should be able to
:54:50. > :54:55.wear whatever we want and that says nothing about us, and actually what
:54:55. > :55:02.seems to be the socialisation of children in the clothing ranges and
:55:03. > :55:09.the images they are exposed to. Is this a difficult divide? The whole
:55:09. > :55:14.debate is very complex. The Equal Opportunities Commission
:55:14. > :55:19.commissioned research into the specialisation of children's goods.
:55:19. > :55:23.That was triggered by a round-table debate we had where concern was
:55:23. > :55:28.expressed about the effects of these, and the increasing number of
:55:28. > :55:33.goods available that could fit into that category. If anything was
:55:33. > :55:38.clear, it was a hugely complex debate even to define what was a
:55:38. > :55:44.sexual wised good. It is also something that would be subjective.
:55:44. > :55:49.One person's interpretation was not the same as another's. What do you
:55:49. > :55:54.think of the argument you cannot isolate children any more. Do you
:55:54. > :56:01.think that argument is sound a should be be trying harder? I think
:56:01. > :56:05.you have to use common sense. What did come out was that it would be
:56:05. > :56:10.impossible to define a solution -- policy that would start talking
:56:10. > :56:13.banning things. What would be welcome perhaps would be some
:56:13. > :56:18.guidelines for parents, or labelling. Quite often they were
:56:18. > :56:23.not aware of what the connotations would be. The research we did
:56:23. > :56:26.really stood alone as contributing to the debate, and for once,
:56:26. > :56:31.providing some empirical evidence which is essential if you're going
:56:31. > :56:35.to have a meaningful discussion on the issue. To get back to the
:56:35. > :56:41.slutwalk. Some feminists are uncomfortable with the use of the
:56:41. > :56:45.word slut in this context. The main reason the word came about was as a
:56:45. > :56:49.direct response to the language used by Toronto police officer, in
:56:49. > :56:53.telling women that if they did not want to get rate, they should stop
:56:53. > :56:57.dressing like sluts. This has become an international expression
:56:57. > :57:01.of outrage at the sentiments behind that. I do not think it is
:57:01. > :57:04.necessary for people to want to reclaim the word to come up on the
:57:04. > :57:09.slutwalk. All they have to do is be determined to show that the victim
:57:09. > :57:13.should never be blamed. I think that taking a language that has
:57:13. > :57:17.been used to divide us, and making it bring us together, as a very
:57:17. > :57:22.important part of the argument. It also gets attention. It makes
:57:22. > :57:27.people pay attention and talk about it. You think this is a word that
:57:27. > :57:32.can be reclaimed and ridiculed. Some feminists would say this would
:57:32. > :57:37.is beyond redemption, with all sorts of misogynistic practice, and
:57:37. > :57:40.women who go on this walk and internalising abuse. We're coming
:57:40. > :57:44.at it more from the perspective that if you calling one of as a
:57:44. > :57:50.slut, we are all sorts. It has nothing to do with how you dress or
:57:50. > :57:54.how you behave. It has become just a uniform insult, so what we want
:57:54. > :57:59.to do is take the power away from it. We refuse to allow it us to be
:57:59. > :58:04.labelled by it any more. If you're a slut for wearing a short skirt,
:58:04. > :58:07.you're a slot for wearing trousers and a pair of shoes. Where are we
:58:07. > :58:13.with the equality agenda overall in the context of this debate? Some
:58:13. > :58:16.people feel the equality agenda has stalled. What the research has
:58:16. > :58:22.shown is that sexual eyes goods were predominantly, almost
:58:22. > :58:29.exclusively, aimed at girls. There was certainly agenda issue there.
:58:29. > :58:33.There were also concerns about a very young -- at the very young age,
:58:33. > :58:37.children would be preoccupied with how the look. That could lead to