:00:41. > :00:44.In Scotland, the Tories are fretting over whether they need a
:00:44. > :00:47.new party. Their only MP says "not in my name".
:00:47. > :00:57.We'll speak to David Mundell. And 40 years on, we'll reflect on the
:00:57. > :00:57.
:00:57. > :31:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1839 seconds
:31:37. > :31:41.There are serious issues for us to deal with as a country and we are
:31:41. > :31:46.getting to grips with those. think a lot of people listening to
:31:46. > :31:50.you today will say they don't seem to get it. It sounds
:31:50. > :31:55.extraordinarily complacent. The plan is not working. The deficit is
:31:55. > :32:00.rising, not falling. If you can say it is to for now but the deficit is
:32:00. > :32:09.not falling, we have had an evaluation, a balance of trade,
:32:09. > :32:13.worse - nothing shows the economy is going right. A lot of people
:32:13. > :32:18.listening to you today, with due respect, will be thinking if that
:32:18. > :32:25.the only answer they have to this debt crisis is to say let's borrow
:32:25. > :32:29.a bit more, they will say thank God the government has changed. Thank
:32:29. > :32:33.God for the future of this country and the future of our children that
:32:33. > :32:39.we have a government show leadership and taking control for a
:32:39. > :32:45.better future. Disappointed you didn't fall into the trap of Tory
:32:45. > :32:49.leadership in Scotland. We have heard today about plans to
:32:49. > :32:53.reinvigorate the right to buy it in part help boost the economy. Will
:32:53. > :33:00.Labour back it today? We will be joined by the shadow business
:33:00. > :33:04.secretary. Do you support the plans? We did keep the right to buy
:33:04. > :33:07.it in place when we were in government but we get a balance
:33:07. > :33:17.whether discount wasn't too high that we lost too many homes we
:33:17. > :33:25.
:33:25. > :33:30.couldn't replace. One of the pirate is for me would be putting a tax on
:33:30. > :33:36.the banks and putting that money into building social housing, which
:33:36. > :33:42.is needed today to help create jobs and boost the economy. When it may
:33:42. > :33:45.ask you about a policy, which is that you will not be able to take
:33:45. > :33:53.an unfair dismissal case against an employer if you haven't worked for
:33:53. > :33:57.them for two years. At the moment it is one years. I think two things.
:33:57. > :34:01.I don't see the pressing need to make life worse for people that
:34:02. > :34:06.work in that way, but the government itself thinks that will
:34:06. > :34:12.make 3000 cases difference in a whole year. If anybody wants to
:34:12. > :34:17.tell me or you that growth in this country is being held back
:34:17. > :34:20.massively by 3000 tribunal places, I think they are wrong. Secondly it,
:34:20. > :34:30.there are massive frustrations about the way the tribunal system
:34:30. > :34:30.
:34:30. > :34:34.works. Let me just interrupt. You said you don't see the need for
:34:34. > :34:40.this to change, isn't the Government seeing the pressing need
:34:40. > :34:44.of employers? Yes, they are, and employers have got a fair case that
:34:44. > :34:48.each year cases go through the tribunal system that cost employers
:34:48. > :34:53.a lot of money. What you should do is sort out the way the tribunal
:34:53. > :34:57.system operates, make sure people can't push and vexatious case for
:34:57. > :35:01.ages, make sure cases in tribunals are not dropped because the
:35:01. > :35:04.listings have gone wrong, sort of the system, and then you can deal
:35:05. > :35:09.with the legitimate claims of employers without removing the
:35:09. > :35:12.rights of what are usually, a amongst the lowest paid and
:35:12. > :35:16.vulnerable people in the country. That government would argue they
:35:16. > :35:21.are trying to change something fundamentally on the supply side -
:35:21. > :35:27.deregulation, cutting corporation tax, reviewing planning laws. Do
:35:27. > :35:31.you agree with any of those? Planning laws - last year they
:35:31. > :35:36.changed the planning system so today we have 200,000 less planning
:35:36. > :35:39.permissions for homes in this country than we had one year ago.
:35:39. > :35:44.If they had non-dom not, they wouldn't have made the situation
:35:44. > :35:48.work. They have put the planning system into chaos. They are now
:35:48. > :35:52.locked into an increasingly abusive debate with the National Trust and
:35:52. > :35:56.so on about building on good countryside when one year ago they
:35:56. > :36:02.had 200,000 more planning permissions, most of which were on
:36:02. > :36:07.brownfield sites so they have made things worse. Nothing they're doing
:36:07. > :36:11.will change this. They are cutting the deficit to far and too fast,
:36:11. > :36:16.which is harming economic growth. We have the lowest of any G7
:36:16. > :36:21.country last year, apart from the earthquake hit Japan. Get that
:36:21. > :36:27.right, cut VAT, encourage businesses to take on more people
:36:27. > :36:31.by cutting National Insurance, and let's get the economy moving.
:36:31. > :36:39.moment we will be speaking to three Conservative MPs about their hopes
:36:39. > :36:41.for the week ahead. First, the Politics Show near you.
:36:41. > :36:44.Good afternoon and welcome to the Politics Show Scotland. On the
:36:44. > :36:47.programme today: As the Tory faithful gather in Manchester,
:36:47. > :36:56.their only Scottish MP and government minister ups the stakes
:36:56. > :37:00.in the leadership campaign. Murdo Fraser's proposal for a new
:37:01. > :37:05.party is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It is a step too far,
:37:05. > :37:08.it is about destroying and not building on what we have got.
:37:08. > :37:10.the Tories need a new name in Scotland - indeed a new set-up
:37:10. > :37:13.altogether? We'll ask four leadership supporters if the
:37:13. > :37:15.party's over. And back to the croft. The crofting
:37:15. > :37:19.lifestyle has survived for centuries, passed down through
:37:19. > :37:29.families. But for how much longer? Will new legislation help or hinder
:37:29. > :37:31.
:37:31. > :37:40.the next generation of crofters? And coming up later: I must say to
:37:41. > :37:49.the creditor of Scotland, I think they are upwardly mobile, much more
:37:49. > :37:51.than the rest of England, I would say. General Pervez Musharraf on
:37:51. > :37:54.boosting Pakistan's economy, the threat of terrorism, and Scottish
:37:54. > :37:57.independence. And 40 years on from the UCS sit-in,
:37:57. > :38:00.we ask what is its lasting legacy? But first, here's Graham Stewart
:38:00. > :38:03.with the news. Scotland's only Conservative
:38:03. > :38:07.government minister has condemned plans to disband the party north of
:38:07. > :38:10.the border. David Mundell's comments come on the first day of
:38:10. > :38:13.the Tory conference in Manchester. Meanwhile, the Prime Minister has
:38:13. > :38:17.said he expects all the pro-union parties to join forces to oppose
:38:17. > :38:26.independence for Scotland. From Manchester, our political
:38:26. > :38:31.correspondent Tim Reid. Among Scottish Tories here this week,
:38:31. > :38:37.there is one item for discussion and that is the leadership. All
:38:37. > :38:41.four candidate will be putting out their ideas tomorrow, but Murdo
:38:41. > :38:46.Fraser has an idea to form a new party which has been dismissed by
:38:46. > :38:51.all of his rivals. Today, an intervention from Scotland's only
:38:51. > :38:55.Tory minister. I am backing Ruth Davidson in this election, not just
:38:55. > :38:58.because she will keep the Conservative Party in Scotland but
:38:58. > :39:03.because I believe she has the best chance of attracting new people to
:39:03. > :39:08.vote for the party. She has the energy and leadership skills to
:39:08. > :39:13.take us forward. Whilst the Prime Minister wants all those opposed to
:39:13. > :39:18.independence to join forces against the SNP, Annabel Goldie will today
:39:18. > :39:20.say she wants Alex Salmond to call that a date for the referendum.
:39:20. > :39:23.Scotland's elimination from the Rugby World Cup was confirmed this
:39:23. > :39:27.morning as Argentina beat Georgia. It means that for the first time
:39:27. > :39:32.ever, the Scots have failed to make the quarter finals. But the head
:39:32. > :39:42.coach Andy Robinson says he has no intention of quitting. I have a
:39:42. > :39:42.
:39:42. > :39:46.contract until 2015 and I have the desire to still coached Scotland.
:39:46. > :39:51.The way the players have gone about this tournament, the enthusiasm
:39:51. > :39:54.they have has fuelled my desire even more to create a successful
:39:54. > :39:57.Scotland team. Almost 10,000 runners are braving
:39:57. > :39:59.the elements to take part in the Great Edinburgh run today. This
:39:59. > :40:05.year sees the biggest ever programme of events, with the
:40:05. > :40:07.addition of a new 5k course, alongside the existing 10k run. The
:40:07. > :40:10.race starts and finishes in Holyrood park and amongst those
:40:10. > :40:12.taking part are the reigning Olympic, 3,000 metres steeplechase
:40:12. > :40:16.champion, Brimin Kipruto and last year's Commonwealth Games marathon
:40:16. > :40:19.winner, John Kelai. And the forecast this afternoon will turn
:40:19. > :40:21.bright with sunny spells for most, as the outbreaks of patchy rain
:40:21. > :40:26.across southern and eastern Scotland become confined to the
:40:26. > :40:31.Borders and Dumfries and Galloway by this evening. Temperatures will
:40:31. > :40:34.reach 15 or 16 Celsius. During this evening, the rain in the far south
:40:34. > :40:37.will die out to leave a dry night for most with clearer breaks.
:40:37. > :40:39.However, rain will edge into the northwest during the evening,
:40:39. > :40:46.before spreading eastwards across northern parts of the country
:40:46. > :40:49.overnight. It will turn windy with gales in parts of the north. That's
:40:49. > :40:57.it for now - our next update from the newsroom is at 6.50pm. Now it's
:40:57. > :40:59.back to Brian. Thanks, Graham. And so the
:40:59. > :41:04.Conservative conference gets under way this weekend with the slogan
:41:04. > :41:07."Leadership for a better future". But in Scotland the leadership of
:41:07. > :41:12.the party is currently being contested and the future's none too
:41:12. > :41:15.certain either. Not least because one of the leadership candidates,
:41:15. > :41:19.Murdo Fraser, wants to put an end to the Scottish Tories in their
:41:19. > :41:22.current form and start again with a new centre-right party. Our
:41:22. > :41:32.reporter Hayley Jarvis has been on the campaign trail with all four
:41:32. > :41:34.
:41:34. > :41:37.candidates. You have to cast your mind back to 1955 to find a time
:41:37. > :41:42.when the Conservatives had the majority of Scottish seats. Then
:41:42. > :41:47.they were called the Unionist Party, now they have just one MP and 15
:41:47. > :41:52.MSPs. The latest attempt to turn around the party's fortunes, a
:41:52. > :41:57.review, may not have been rock 'n' roll but he recommended there
:41:57. > :42:02.should be an election of the leader of the party. Could this be the
:42:02. > :42:07.man? Not if he has this way? If Murdo Fraser wins, he will replace
:42:07. > :42:11.the party with the new centre-right group. While his supporters in
:42:11. > :42:15.Glasgow think it is a good idea, others are not convinced. I always
:42:15. > :42:18.knew there would be people who would find it difficult to come to
:42:18. > :42:22.terms with the scale of the change I have been proposing. However, if
:42:22. > :42:26.you look at the range of people backing me, we have seven members
:42:26. > :42:34.of the Scottish parliament, nearly 50 elected Conservative councillors,
:42:34. > :42:38.we have Scotland's Conservative MEP, we have Malcolm Rifkind and Lord
:42:38. > :42:43.Tebbit supporting me. People will realise this is not some whimsical
:42:43. > :42:46.fantasy, it is a serious proposal and something that needs to happen
:42:46. > :42:51.if we are going to see a future for centre-right politics across
:42:51. > :42:56.Scotland. With growing opposition to his plans, could the deputy
:42:56. > :43:00.leader have slipped up? Clearly, he has set the agenda in this campaign.
:43:00. > :43:05.I think it is a bold move. I'm not concerned it is a radical move
:43:05. > :43:11.because I don't think the party will change. The vehicle may change
:43:11. > :43:16.but it message will not change, so it is bold rather than radical.
:43:16. > :43:19.Whether that is too bold for the Conservative party - after all, it
:43:19. > :43:23.is a Conservative Party - we will have to see but without that
:43:23. > :43:27.message she would have been the clear favourite to win. This is the
:43:27. > :43:32.first election when party members will decide who becomes leader.
:43:32. > :43:39.Little is known about them except they are rare breed. Membership has
:43:39. > :43:43.fallen by almost half in the last five years to around 8500. We don't
:43:43. > :43:53.know anything about the membership in Scotland. We hear stories that
:43:53. > :43:56.
:43:56. > :44:01.most are over 70, most of them are women, most are inactive and so on.
:44:01. > :44:05.Ruth Davidson is trying to find out more about the party members. The
:44:05. > :44:10.32 year-old is a relative newcomer to politics, she became an MSP in
:44:10. > :44:14.May. She has pledged to visit every constituency in Scotland as part of
:44:14. > :44:18.her campaign. Today she is telling voters she will offer generational
:44:18. > :44:23.change within the existing structure of the party. I think in
:44:23. > :44:26.the context of a leadership debate, it is a right that different
:44:26. > :44:30.candidates put out their vision for the future. I think Murdo Fraser is
:44:30. > :44:34.asking the right questions about what we have done poorly in the
:44:34. > :44:41.past, but I am proud to be a Scottish Conservative Unionist and
:44:42. > :44:51.I believe I can build future success for the party going forward.
:44:52. > :44:54.
:44:54. > :44:58.52 year-old Jackson -- Jackson Carlaw says the party needs to
:44:58. > :45:03.focus on the issues that matter. think changing the name is a
:45:03. > :45:08.distraction. It is a superficial change that would lead us to be
:45:08. > :45:12.divided for the next 18 months. All the while Alex Salmond will be
:45:12. > :45:17.planning the break-up of the United Kingdom. We have to concentrate on
:45:17. > :45:21.the defence of Scotland's place within the UK, and make sure we are
:45:21. > :45:25.in a fit state to win the referendum. I am not the status quo
:45:25. > :45:29.candidate. I think the party needs to be shaken up. Because my
:45:29. > :45:33.experience reaches back to when we had 23 members of Parliament at
:45:33. > :45:40.Westminster, to when we had a professional organisation, I
:45:41. > :45:50.understand what we need to do. Discuss a torrid -- dissatisfied,
:45:51. > :45:51.
:45:51. > :46:01.Margaret Mitchell became a late Want. Was the constitutional issue,
:46:01. > :46:01.
:46:01. > :46:07.where they were saying the... That was one issue. More than that, they
:46:07. > :46:12.seem to be arguing about the change of name, a change of party,
:46:12. > :46:19.consulting more with members. Nobody was arguing about people and
:46:20. > :46:23.for me, politics is about people. It is a four horse race. Is the
:46:23. > :46:27.party in danger of veering off course in a contest that was
:46:27. > :46:33.supposed to improve its odds at the ballot box?
:46:33. > :46:39.The big break this morning on that issue of the Conservative
:46:39. > :46:47.leadership, David Mundell, at the Scotland Office joins me. Thanks
:46:47. > :46:53.for joining us. Let's start on your views on the leadership contest.
:46:53. > :46:57.You gave a written guarantee that you wouldn't and agreed in the
:46:57. > :47:02.leadership contest. What has happened? I had hoped that I would
:47:02. > :47:07.be able to stay on neutral ground. If it had been a simple election, I
:47:07. > :47:11.probably would. This is a debate about the entire future of the
:47:11. > :47:17.Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. It is about whether people
:47:17. > :47:22.in Scotland will have the chance to vote Conservative. I think if that
:47:22. > :47:26.right is taken away, it is a betrayal of our members and the
:47:26. > :47:30.420,000 people who did vote Conservative at the UK general
:47:31. > :47:35.election. If the new constitution, the new party with a new name, is
:47:35. > :47:40.to go through, it will have been democratically endorsed by the
:47:40. > :47:47.Conservatives in Scotland. Shouldn't you abide by that? As we
:47:47. > :47:53.all know, there is a completely separate process for changing the
:47:53. > :47:59.party than for the leadership. It has been quite unclear during the
:47:59. > :48:05.campaign at how that would be achieved. My understanding was an
:48:05. > :48:11.entirely new party was to be set up. There seems to be some fudging on
:48:11. > :48:16.mat and a transfer of assets being mandated. We don't have a great
:48:16. > :48:19.deal of clarity on that. What my commitment is, to keep the Scottish
:48:19. > :48:23.party and Unionist Party going because I believe voters in
:48:23. > :48:27.Scotland want to have the opportunity to vote for a majority
:48:27. > :48:33.Conservative Government at Westminster. To be clear, if the
:48:33. > :48:36.new party goes ahead, if it is set up in Scotland, it would take the
:48:36. > :48:43.Westminster whip through negotiation. If it is set up, you
:48:43. > :48:49.were saying he would not serve as an MP for that a new party? Again,
:48:49. > :48:54.you are putting a lot of IFS in to that question. Would you serve as
:48:54. > :49:00.an MP under those colours? What I am saying is if I am fortunate to
:49:00. > :49:03.be elected, I will be taking the Conservative whip at Westminster. I
:49:03. > :49:11.would be entering into a coalition negotiations as to whether I should
:49:11. > :49:16.sit on the Conservative benches. is simple. When you are running in
:49:16. > :49:21.that campaign appears elections in 2015, when you ran under the banner
:49:21. > :49:30.of the new party that has been established? -- and will you run?
:49:30. > :49:38.We will have to see if that happens. It is really easy. You are talking
:49:38. > :49:41.about the new party, you are condemn it and prepared to talk
:49:42. > :49:45.about the new existence. Were you run and the new colours in your
:49:45. > :49:50.constituency? I will be standing on the basis that I would be taking
:49:50. > :49:54.the Conservative whip at twisters - - Westminster and hopefully part of
:49:54. > :50:01.the majority Conservative Government implementing a
:50:01. > :50:06.Conservative manifesto. If you won't run under the new colours,
:50:06. > :50:10.they would be entitled to stand against you, wouldn't they? What I
:50:10. > :50:15.think is quite clear is if you do set up a new organisation, people
:50:15. > :50:24.in an existing organisation are not bound to become part of that. They
:50:24. > :50:30.have to make that decision for themselves. I stand in any election
:50:30. > :50:35.on the basis of my record. I stand also as a Conservative. I have
:50:35. > :50:38.always made it clear that I was a Conservative and on each of the
:50:38. > :50:47.occasions, I have managed to increase the Conservative vote in
:50:47. > :50:56.the constituency I am standing in. 2010, general election in Scotland,
:50:56. > :51:00.16.7%. 2011, election constituency, 13.9, list 12.4. That is a Tory
:51:00. > :51:04.record. It hasn't worked wonderfully, has it? Nobody is
:51:04. > :51:08.disputing that. Everybody accepts this election should be about
:51:08. > :51:14.change and radical change. It shouldn't be about destroying what
:51:14. > :51:20.we have. It should be about throwing the baby out with the bath
:51:20. > :51:24.water. Let's build on what we have got, not destroy it. I believe that
:51:24. > :51:28.there is an opportunity to move forward if we have the right
:51:29. > :51:34.leadership, the right policies and divide campaigning style. It is
:51:34. > :51:38.very easy and tempting, given the difficulties, to think that there
:51:38. > :51:42.is a silver bullet. I'm afraid there is not. It is a combination
:51:42. > :51:50.of things. We are setting up a new party and a new name is not one of
:51:50. > :51:56.them. Manchester, the candidates are on route to conference right
:51:56. > :52:05.now. To discuss the election, I am delighted to welcome key supporters.
:52:05. > :52:12.Peter Duncan is here to speak up for Murdo Fraser, Mr Davidson and
:52:12. > :52:21.head off Scottish Ballet, Stephanie. We had it advocate, William Frain-
:52:21. > :52:31.Bell. Thank you for joining us. Duncan, the Commons by a Miss Tim
:52:31. > :52:52.
:52:52. > :52:59.It doesn't help when it they say it is the wrong approach. You are
:52:59. > :53:03.trying hard to be specific. He said he wanted to go to Westminster and
:53:03. > :53:08.so the Conservative whip. They would take the Conservative whip
:53:08. > :53:17.and help in the election of a Conservative Prime Minister. That
:53:17. > :53:24.is what our predecessors did. is wrong with that, Stephanie
:53:24. > :53:30.Fraser? It has demonstrated how unclear the proposals are. The
:53:30. > :53:37.confusion. It could be David Mundell but is unclear, not Murdo
:53:37. > :53:43.Fraser. It is unclear how Murdo Fraser is wanting to go. Are we
:53:43. > :53:47.amalgamating all the existing assets and a new name? We are
:53:47. > :53:57.talking about a new party, recognising that the Unionist Party
:53:57. > :53:58.
:53:58. > :54:02.has failed to secure the support of 40% of people. He has been Deputy
:54:02. > :54:08.Leader of the party for the last seven years. Surely he has to take
:54:08. > :54:14.responsibility. He knows how bad it is? As I watched him at wriggling
:54:14. > :54:18.like a worm, the only person who is enjoying this is Alex Salmond. He
:54:18. > :54:23.is the Panther that everybody has to beat. To do that, you can't send
:54:23. > :54:28.in an office cat. The have Ruth Davidson who has been in politics
:54:28. > :54:33.for six weeks. I don't know what her politics are. You have Murdo
:54:33. > :54:40.Fraser who will split the party in house and Jackson Carlaw. You think
:54:41. > :54:45.it will split them rather than unite them? I sympathise with Murdo
:54:45. > :54:55.Fraser, he has not got the right solution and the party will split
:54:55. > :55:00.in half. You would not join the new party? If a somebody who believes
:55:00. > :55:05.in democracy, I would go with what the members decide. That is what
:55:05. > :55:11.David Mundell's problem was. If Murdo Fraser wins, he has to do
:55:11. > :55:18.what he has to do. It would split the party. You are looking for
:55:18. > :55:25.somebody it where the party can coalesce around. I have stood
:55:25. > :55:31.against Alex Salmond. What we are facing here, we are handing an open
:55:31. > :55:35.goal to the SNP. We must appear to be united. For what we should be
:55:35. > :55:41.doing, so there focusing up on what the party is going to be culled, we
:55:41. > :55:47.should be focusing on how we get support at a local level. That is
:55:47. > :55:51.what Margaret Mitchell wants to do. Under the current set-up, you stood
:55:51. > :55:57.against Alex Salmond. The present set-up isn't working too well.
:55:57. > :56:05.came second and it was a very good election. There were one or two
:56:05. > :56:09.thirds between ass. May I say that I know about how the SNP works.
:56:09. > :56:17.They have mastered social midi and will continue to do that over the
:56:17. > :56:22.next two or three years. -- Social media. You are saying that the SNP
:56:22. > :56:26.are being successful because they are harnessing new media and new
:56:26. > :56:33.campaigning tools. We have ceased in our party to be an effective
:56:33. > :56:37.campaigning force. Now is the time for a generation change. I hope you
:56:37. > :56:41.are not saying that just because people are all do, that they can't
:56:41. > :56:49.embrace social media. We cannot spend the next few years fighting.
:56:49. > :56:57.We have to show a positive message. The SNP are demonstrating...
:56:57. > :57:01.you say it is the wrong time? statistic gets to the heart of why
:57:01. > :57:06.Alex Salmond would be delighted if Murdo Fraser doesn't win. That is
:57:06. > :57:09.6% of the Scottish electorate see the current Scottish Conservative
:57:10. > :57:17.Unionist Party as putting Scottish interests first. That is less than
:57:17. > :57:22.half of those people that voted. Shouldn't you change your policy
:57:22. > :57:28.and your approach rather than your name? We would have a new party but
:57:28. > :57:32.we would have any policies, new people. You say you don't need a
:57:32. > :57:41.new captain, G need a new ship? They are those that are not part of
:57:41. > :57:46.the party that will see themselves as having a new home. Alex Salmond
:57:46. > :57:51.doesn't care who wins this election. He will not be frightened of any of
:57:51. > :57:55.the candidates. What is needed is not only a new leader, it is going
:57:55. > :57:59.to have to be policy lead. People are going to have to be attracted
:57:59. > :58:03.by the policies regardless of who the leader is. If what about the
:58:03. > :58:09.argument that the brand is so toxic that you can't get an audience for
:58:09. > :58:19.the policies. You can't get by that toxicity in the brand to get a
:58:19. > :58:22.
:58:22. > :58:27.hearing at all? All they did was add the words, new, on the front.
:58:27. > :58:33.They changed their policies. They change them at the very core and
:58:33. > :58:38.that has not been addressed by a main candidates. Let's talk about
:58:38. > :58:46.funding. We were talking about assets are shifting to this new
:58:46. > :58:50.party. What about funding of William? Will they be far better?
:58:50. > :58:54.From what the press has been indicating, there are one or two
:58:54. > :58:57.names that have indicated that they will supply money. People are
:58:57. > :59:02.attracted by something new and exciting and would like to be
:59:02. > :59:07.involved in it. If we are talking about funding, we could easily use
:59:07. > :59:11.the same funding. If everybody was working together, we could be using
:59:11. > :59:16.the funding to look at the existing party and working out how we can
:59:16. > :59:18.best use money to use the party that we have at the moment, to take
:59:18. > :59:23.head on some major decisions that are going to be made by the
:59:23. > :59:26.Scottish people in the next few years. I want to know that their
:59:26. > :59:30.money is coming to be effectively spent. They want to know that they
:59:30. > :59:36.are going to see the source. The problem we have had is too many
:59:36. > :59:40.offenders have not seen many -- have seen many them down the toilet.
:59:40. > :59:44.It is not about throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it is
:59:44. > :59:49.about providing an effective plan and saying, if we have your support,
:59:49. > :59:53.this is what we can do. I had been party chairman during elections
:59:53. > :59:57.where we have spent huge amounts of money and they have not seen
:59:57. > :00:01.resorts. The reality is the Scottish Conservative and Unionist
:00:01. > :00:10.Party have failed to secure that massive cent weight vote in
:00:10. > :00:15.Scotland. This new party will be the start of coalescing at this
:00:15. > :00:22.party. If Murdo Fraser wins, then we will have a new party and the
:00:22. > :00:32.membership will endorse that. If he loses, he has said that he will
:00:32. > :00:34.
:00:34. > :00:39.remain an enthusiastic supporter. He says there is no future for the
:00:39. > :00:44.party in its present form. It will never succeed in its present form.
:00:44. > :00:53.It must adapt or die. You are saying you remain a member of a
:00:53. > :01:00.party that you say has no future. think the statistics are very clear.
:01:00. > :01:09.We have to vote share. How could you stay there when you think it is
:01:09. > :01:14.the dead party? The cars at the end of the day, I believe in civic
:01:14. > :01:21.responsibility, in enterprise... You have to be honest. If Murdo
:01:21. > :01:25.Fraser wins this, the party will split in half. If Ruth wins this,
:01:25. > :01:31.people will not support her either. We need somebody with experience,
:01:31. > :01:38.gravitas, and that will have to be Jackson Carlaw. When David Cameron
:01:38. > :01:43.stepped forward as a young person... Ruth Davidson has been in
:01:43. > :01:48.Parliament for six weeks! That speaks of the lack of being able to
:01:48. > :01:52.develop any talent in the Conservative Party. If I may, I
:01:52. > :01:59.think it is wrong to penalise the only candidate who has been an
:01:59. > :02:05.elected councillor. She understands local issues. Why should she be
:02:05. > :02:09.penalised? With Davidson has no political experience. We need
:02:09. > :02:17.someone with significant political experience and that is Margaret
:02:17. > :02:24.Mitchell. Margaret Mitchell, to varying degrees, is more at the
:02:24. > :02:32.same. The reality is the ship is going down. He is just turning
:02:32. > :02:37.around saying we are doomed, we need the positives. He are going to
:02:37. > :02:47.have to find a new name! Let's have a look at the list of named the
:02:47. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:02.That is the list. You are laughing, but you don't fancy any of those?
:03:02. > :03:07.think the Titanic should be the name because it is going down and
:03:07. > :03:15.fast. You don't fancy any of those? I'm not sure it will make any
:03:15. > :03:18.difference. I wasn't sure what is being referred to as the tightening
:03:19. > :03:28.because the Scottish Unionist Party is not sinking, it is in good hands
:03:29. > :03:30.
:03:30. > :03:35.and it is going forward. Things will change. People will start...
:03:35. > :03:40.It things will change. A man me tell you why - because over the
:03:40. > :03:44.next few years, people will start having to think about how they will
:03:44. > :03:48.vote in his forthcoming referendum and the Conservative Party is the
:03:48. > :03:55.voice of Unionism. If it is not United, the referendum may well go
:03:55. > :03:59.in favour... N the of those names tickle you? I am a Conservative, my
:03:59. > :04:04.father was a proud conservative, my grandfather was elected as a
:04:04. > :04:09.Unionist, and before him he was elected as a moderate. Naming
:04:09. > :04:13.itself is not a big deal. Your are going to have to choose one.
:04:13. > :04:18.think there are merits in lots of them. Do problem with Murdo
:04:18. > :04:24.Fraser... It is a consultation with the membership and we will make our
:04:24. > :04:29.decision. The you could call yourselves the Jacobites! If you
:04:29. > :04:33.launch a campaign, the premise is that you have to change the party's
:04:33. > :04:40.name that everyone can coalesce around. You can imagine he would be
:04:40. > :04:45.able to tell us what that will be. The name will not involve
:04:45. > :04:52.Conservative and Unionist, we have got to have a new start. What is
:04:52. > :04:56.wrong with Conservatives or unionists? C X the scent of the
:04:56. > :05:06.Scottish electorate see us as putting Scotland's interests first
:05:06. > :05:11.and that has got to change. It is not a problem with the name.
:05:11. > :05:16.you have been trying to tweak policies for ages. I remember some
:05:16. > :05:21.very esteemed figures in our party. In 1997 the Strathclyde Commission
:05:21. > :05:27.saying if we get the policies right things will change, and they
:05:27. > :05:33.haven't. Particularly when Ruth Davidson says give it 10 years...
:05:33. > :05:38.There are briefly. This new party will have new policies as well. We
:05:38. > :05:45.are thinking about bosses now, policies that help local people at
:05:45. > :05:55.a local level. Thanks to all your contributions from all four of you.
:05:55. > :05:59.I am not sure about the name. Jacobites.
:05:59. > :06:05.Coming up later in the programme - 40 years on, the legacy of the UCS
:06:05. > :06:10.sit-in. People sent people from all over the world to look at it and it
:06:10. > :06:16.was very inspiring and positive. There are almost 18,000 crofts in
:06:16. > :06:18.Scotland, stretching from Shetland to Argyll. This unique system of
:06:18. > :06:20.small-scale, part-time agriculture holdings has helped support rural
:06:20. > :06:24.populations for centuries. And this weekend new legislation comes in,
:06:24. > :06:26.aimed at making modern crofting more viable. But problems with
:06:26. > :06:33.absentee crofters, land speculation, neglect and a declining population
:06:33. > :06:42.of young people, pose formidable challenges for its future. This
:06:42. > :06:46.report from Angus Macdonald in Stornoway. This part of the area
:06:46. > :06:52.was involved in some land agitation in the 19th century, and what
:06:52. > :06:59.became known later as the Agnes riot. The relationship between
:06:59. > :07:08.crofters and legislators is still uneasy. The crofting Act of 2010 is
:07:08. > :07:14.still being treated by crofters with a degree of suspicion.
:07:14. > :07:18.Legislation alone will not protect crofting. They are good part to the
:07:19. > :07:27.legislation, parts that are not so good, and parts that are wholly
:07:27. > :07:33.untested. Crofting has been part of the area for centuries. There are
:07:33. > :07:37.over 18,000 crofts. The income is so small that other employment is
:07:37. > :07:42.essential. Governments have tried to give crofting a viable future
:07:42. > :07:46.but the problems are difficult. Speculation in croft land, absentee
:07:46. > :07:53.tenants and misuse of the land itself. Last year's crofting Reform
:07:53. > :08:03.Act changed the ruling body, enabling crofters to elect their
:08:03. > :08:04.
:08:04. > :08:11.own representatives. It's disappointing the development rule
:08:11. > :08:15.has gone from the commission, and if it becomes a bit part of another
:08:15. > :08:20.agency, crofting will lose out. Stornoway the legal profession is
:08:20. > :08:25.about as close as you can get to being expert in crofting law. They
:08:25. > :08:32.are waiting in particular to see what effect it will have on
:08:32. > :08:39.crofting land. A I'm not aware there it is damping down, the
:08:39. > :08:42.market, in terms of the clawback. There seems to be an interest in
:08:42. > :08:47.crofting from young people, and in interest in still building croft
:08:47. > :08:57.houses. There has done been any noticeable change in the area. --
:08:57. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:05.not been. There was also pressure to rule out absentee crofters.
:09:05. > :09:09.to me it is not the death of crofting. Neglect is a big one.
:09:09. > :09:14.They're very good reasons for absenteeism, there is no reason for
:09:14. > :09:21.neglect. There have been mistakes you read about in the press, but
:09:21. > :09:26.generally they have been very clear about it. If they can put up a good
:09:26. > :09:30.case, they will look at it sympathetically. Crofting has lost
:09:30. > :09:34.out because people have been forced off the land, forced to make a
:09:34. > :09:38.career for themselves and their families, many of whom have
:09:38. > :09:45.returned. Without these people returning in generations past, we
:09:45. > :09:51.would not have crofting today. The most important thing is that
:09:51. > :09:56.whoever has to croft, they ensure the whole thing is in the interests
:09:56. > :10:01.of the community. What of the most controversial provisions branded by
:10:02. > :10:11.the council as a snoopers charter, is the responsibility placed on
:10:12. > :10:17.
:10:17. > :10:27.gracing committees and clerks to act against those who misuse their
:10:27. > :10:34.crofts. The Clarke must be inspired with enough confidence to make sure
:10:34. > :10:41.he fulfils his role. Their perception may totally differ, and
:10:41. > :10:45.no matter how conscientious one is, they will make enemies along the
:10:45. > :10:49.road. What is more important - to live peacefully with your neighbour
:10:49. > :10:53.or seemed to be carrying out a bit of legislation that is not
:10:53. > :10:57.necessarily what crofting needs. This is the latest attempt to make
:10:57. > :11:07.crofting a viable system but an ongoing conspiracy between the
:11:07. > :11:07.
:11:07. > :11:09.forces of a maternity leave the future of crofting unclear.
:11:09. > :11:18.I'm joined now from Aberdeen by Stewart Stevenson, the Environment
:11:18. > :11:22.Minister. Hearing there about issues in the legislation, detailed
:11:22. > :11:27.issues in crofting. Let me start in a more fundamental way - what do
:11:27. > :11:36.you see as the purpose of crofting in modern Scotland? It does date
:11:36. > :11:40.back to the clearances in the Victorian times which were a blight
:11:40. > :11:44.upon the north and west of Scotland. The original legislation in
:11:44. > :11:48.Victorian times was the first attempt to make sure that people
:11:48. > :11:54.had the right to remain on their land and to live in their
:11:54. > :11:58.communities, and have the access to resources. That is restated in the
:11:59. > :12:03.2010 legislation, that it is about keeping people on the land and
:12:03. > :12:10.making sure the land upon which they lived is in a fit and proper
:12:10. > :12:15.state. Do you still think there is that practical role, or is it a
:12:15. > :12:22.product of history and sentiment? There is a very practical role
:12:22. > :12:26.indeed. We must remember that much of our countryside depends on the
:12:26. > :12:36.stewardship that we exercised over it as crofters, as farmers, as
:12:36. > :12:38.
:12:38. > :12:42.people who visit the countryside. Creating the landscape, creating
:12:42. > :12:52.the wonderful environment that so many visitors come to, that much of
:12:52. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :12:56.the world admires. The legislation in 1993, and 2010, it is feared to
:12:56. > :12:59.sustaining these remote and vulnerable communities. I'm sure we
:12:59. > :13:06.can make significant contribution through this new piece of
:13:06. > :13:15.legislation. What about the fears are that there will be a
:13:15. > :13:19.detrimental result in transferring development money? The crofting
:13:19. > :13:25.Commission, which will prove to be a predominantly elected body, will
:13:25. > :13:30.be a strong champion to work with Highlands and Islands Enterprise.
:13:30. > :13:35.The commission themselves will not have the money, it will be
:13:35. > :13:40.transferred to others. Yes, but H I eat is a body that represents the
:13:40. > :13:44.interests of the islands and it is demonstrated by the economic
:13:44. > :13:49.development we have seen, the powerhouse in many ways in
:13:49. > :13:52.Scotland's economy, the benefits of long running engagement and
:13:52. > :13:56.investment in our communities, that will not change. On the contrary,
:13:56. > :13:59.the work they will be doing with the crofting Commission and
:13:59. > :14:03.individual crofters will be integrated with wider development.
:14:03. > :14:08.The concern might be that the development continues in the
:14:08. > :14:13.Inverness region, and perhaps the crofting lands themselves more
:14:13. > :14:18.remote don't get the money they got in the past. No, that is not the
:14:18. > :14:23.case. We are powering through democratic accountability in the
:14:23. > :14:27.crofting Commission, but also the rolling of the grazing committees
:14:27. > :14:32.are renounced so there is local engagement in what is going on. It
:14:32. > :14:35.is very clear we will understand exactly what is required in the way
:14:35. > :14:39.of investment, financial and practical support to crofting
:14:39. > :14:45.communities. There is a future for crofting that is important to
:14:45. > :14:50.Scotland. You mentioned the grazing committees. We heard that their
:14:50. > :14:58.concern, something that it could be a snoopers charter unless it is
:14:58. > :15:02.properly organised. People were very concerned about absentee
:15:02. > :15:06.crofters. I think we are delivering the power to make sure the crofting
:15:06. > :15:11.Commission is aware of what requires to be done. We do need
:15:11. > :15:14.local people on the ground. The grazing Committee is a vital part
:15:14. > :15:22.of ensuring we link local to the crofting Commission. But if they
:15:22. > :15:27.are to do their work properly, isn't there a concern one neighbour
:15:27. > :15:29.will grass upon another if they feel they are absent too much?
:15:29. > :15:33.is about information being available to the crofting
:15:33. > :15:37.Commission. When information is available, when the crofting
:15:37. > :15:43.Commission can take the action that supports the overwhelming majority
:15:43. > :15:47.of people who responded to the report, saying that we needed more
:15:47. > :15:50.people resonant, saying that we needed better standards of
:15:50. > :15:53.stewardship over the crofts. former Pakistani president, Pervez
:15:53. > :15:58.Musharaf, visited Scotland this week. The exiled general ruled
:15:58. > :16:01.Pakistan for nine years until 2008, before fleeing to the UK. General
:16:01. > :16:03.Musharraf is wanted by an anti- terrorist court in Pakistan over
:16:03. > :16:09.accusations he failed to protect the former Prime Minister, Benazir
:16:09. > :16:12.Bhutto, from assassination in December 2007. He describes the
:16:12. > :16:17.case against him as "baseless" and politically driven and plans to
:16:17. > :16:27.return to Pakistan within the next six months. My colleague, Glenn
:16:27. > :16:30.
:16:30. > :16:34.Campbell caught up with him in In 2009, Gordon Brown, said that
:16:34. > :16:38.two-thirds or three-quarters of all terrorist plots in Britain
:16:38. > :16:44.originated all were linked to patterns -- Pakistan. Why is that?
:16:45. > :16:51.I agree that many of the plots, the people had some link with the
:16:51. > :16:57.Pakistan. They were born and bred here so one should take
:16:58. > :17:07.responsibility here. Roof why are the terrorists when they were born
:17:08. > :17:09.
:17:09. > :17:16.and bred here? Because of the turmoil in Pakistan and Afghanistan,
:17:16. > :17:23.they found safe haven where they could train and get some resources
:17:23. > :17:26.may be, through whatever resources were going to the Taliban.
:17:26. > :17:33.understand why radical Islam is attractive to some people,
:17:33. > :17:43.particularly young Muslim men in this country? We need to understand
:17:43. > :17:45.
:17:45. > :17:51.the causes. The root causes are poverty in Afghanistan. The Shi'ite
:17:51. > :17:58.bombers, they are cases of poverty and illiteracy. They are told that
:17:58. > :18:04.if they blow themselves up, they go to heaven. He thinks this is true
:18:04. > :18:11.and he is miserable here. He is going to live a very wonderful life
:18:11. > :18:20.in the next world. He is a literate enough to not understand this. The
:18:20. > :18:27.people here are not poor and illiterate. That is a political
:18:27. > :18:31.turmoil. Since after the Second World War, every political issue
:18:31. > :18:38.has Muslim connections, Muslim countries are involved. In each one
:18:38. > :18:48.of them, Muslim countries are on the receiving end. Palestine, no
:18:48. > :18:49.
:18:49. > :18:57.resolution. Kashmir, no resolution. Their implementation, then come
:18:57. > :19:03.Bosnia and Chechnya. No independence to Chechnya. Estonia,
:19:03. > :19:10.Lithuania, all three can bind of one-tenth of Chechnya that they get
:19:10. > :19:20.their independence, not Chechnya. There is anger, frustration.
:19:20. > :19:24.Political disputes, Muslims being alienated, Muslims suffering,
:19:24. > :19:31.therefore it is these political disputes. Also poverty and
:19:31. > :19:37.illiteracy which causes the problems. What Maud -- what more
:19:37. > :19:42.could you country do to help support stability in Pakistan and
:19:42. > :19:51.help the economy picked up there? think there are a lot of Pakistanis
:19:51. > :19:56.who do well here. I must say to the credit of Scotland, the Pakistani
:19:56. > :20:04.people are Upwood -- upwardly mobile, much more than the rest of
:20:04. > :20:10.England. I think they some -- should contribute more in
:20:10. > :20:18.moderation, promote tolerance here and then maybe, if they want to
:20:18. > :20:23.help, economic assistance in Pakistan. Investment in Pakistan.
:20:23. > :20:27.Many investors are taking their money out right now. That is
:20:27. > :20:37.because of lack of confidence in the Government, lack of trust in
:20:37. > :20:39.
:20:39. > :20:44.the Government. The dollar exchange rate has gone from -- gone down in
:20:44. > :20:54.so many years. Many Pakistani scalds have become involved in the
:20:54. > :20:59.domestic politics of the country. - - Scots. Some weather -- someone to
:20:59. > :21:04.know whether we should be independent of the UK. Do you have
:21:04. > :21:11.a comment on that? No, I would not like to comment. All over the world,
:21:11. > :21:17.there is nationalism and it is a strong force. It is exerting
:21:17. > :21:24.everywhere. Czechoslovak feet -- Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic,
:21:24. > :21:31.French speaking, English-speaking, I wouldn't like to comment. If you
:21:31. > :21:36.were back running Pakistan, would it matter to you if the UK remained
:21:36. > :21:44.intact or indeed if it Scotland became independent? Never thought
:21:45. > :21:52.of it frankly. We are dealing with the United Kingdom. Thank you very
:21:52. > :21:59.much indeed. From that back to Scottish matters. Do you remember
:21:59. > :22:03.the UCS working? It is 40 years since the workers, Reid and Airlie,
:22:03. > :22:08.occupied the shipbuilders in protests. Veterans have been
:22:08. > :22:14.marking the anniversary with a gala concert at the Mitchell Theatre in
:22:14. > :22:20.Glasgow. In a moment, we will look at the legacy of UCS. Gilly
:22:20. > :22:30.Mathieson has been talking to those that helped save the shipping
:22:30. > :22:31.
:22:31. > :22:34.It was an all-star cast as veterans and their supporters celebrated 40
:22:34. > :22:43.years of the Upper Clyde Shipbuilders work in. The artists
:22:43. > :22:48.included some who played in fund- raising concerts at the time. The
:22:48. > :22:54.working was called in 19 centre one when the Conservative Government,
:22:54. > :22:58.led by Sir Edward Heath, refused to give ECS a subsidy to save the
:22:58. > :23:07.shipyards from being closed. For the workers, action was taken to
:23:07. > :23:11.protect their jobs. As soon as the concept of a work in, not a
:23:11. > :23:15.traditional strike or sit in the was conceived, momentum grew and
:23:15. > :23:25.everybody knew that there was something different about the
:23:25. > :23:27.
:23:27. > :23:34.activity. Particularly being led by a Jimmy Reid and Jimmy air Lee, we
:23:34. > :23:42.knew that they were exceptional leaders. We should reverse the
:23:42. > :23:47.whole plan. They went on building and I came and supported them. We
:23:47. > :23:51.were in opposition at that time. Harold Wilson was nervous but he
:23:52. > :23:56.went up to Glasgow. He was convinced by what was being done.
:23:56. > :24:00.The Government was faced with harsh economic times and their plan was
:24:00. > :24:08.to rein in Government intervention in the economy in an effort to
:24:08. > :24:11.break with the socialist policies of the 1960s. The mood of Britain
:24:11. > :24:18.was for somebody to stand up to a reaction in Government. It did
:24:18. > :24:23.capture the attention of the whole of Britain in supporting Mez.
:24:23. > :24:32.Footballers, you could actually get into the Citizens Theatre with your
:24:32. > :24:38.union card. The campaign continued to gather momentum. We had the
:24:38. > :24:44.Marxist and the ministers, everyone in the team, churches, schools,
:24:44. > :24:53.supporting the UCS. They paid the workers who were not working and
:24:53. > :25:00.that support lasted. The most memorable moment I had was the day
:25:00. > :25:09.they organised the march from the yard to Glasgow. The Yard's turned
:25:09. > :25:16.out and it was great. The humour in the yard was marvellous. People
:25:16. > :25:20.didn't let the situation get them down. Getting their message across
:25:21. > :25:26.was crucial for the UCS who were competing with the Government press
:25:26. > :25:32.machine. For my part, the Government miss read the situation
:25:32. > :25:39.and thought that they had the upper hand by controlling the tabloids
:25:39. > :25:45.and the broadsheets. The guys immediately recognised that it is a
:25:45. > :25:53.new type of campaign. We decided we would be as good at the media as
:25:53. > :25:57.those guys. Having Jimmy Reid as an Auditor, it was wonderful. We are
:25:57. > :26:01.going to fight this and we are going to fight it with
:26:01. > :26:07.determination. In 1972, but Government backed down and history
:26:07. > :26:12.was made. It helped change minds because we could have gone ahead
:26:12. > :26:15.after the receivership and sheet down industry. They didn't do that
:26:15. > :26:21.because workers were saying that they weren't going to resist what
:26:21. > :26:27.was going on, they were going to work on. Demanding the right to
:26:28. > :26:32.work. There was a powerful message at the time. -- but that was.
:26:33. > :26:39.Veterans here is still have a message they want to pass on. Many
:26:39. > :26:43.feel the UCS has been airbrushed from history. They say this piece
:26:43. > :26:49.of social and industrial history must never be forgotten.
:26:49. > :26:53.Is it just history always fair and lasting legacy? With me is
:26:53. > :26:57.Professor Tom Devine and the actress, Elaine C Smith. You were
:26:57. > :27:07.taking part in that concert last night. What was your role? I had
:27:07. > :27:13.
:27:13. > :27:18.the honour of reading the famous Rat race address. When it was said
:27:19. > :27:24.initially, I thought, oh yes. It was a woman's voice reading it and
:27:24. > :27:29.it took it out of the smoke-filled rooms and the old fashioned Labour
:27:29. > :27:33.politics. Also, it could have been written up this morning. That is
:27:33. > :27:38.what struck me, given where we are in the recession, given the people
:27:38. > :27:43.that have been put out of work. The relevance and the vision, that is
:27:43. > :27:52.what the whole celebration is about. You are far too young to remember
:27:52. > :28:01.it directly, what is the reminiscence for you? It was men
:28:01. > :28:11.like my dad and my ankles. I came from a working-class background. --
:28:11. > :28:15.
:28:15. > :28:21.Mike uncles. They were all part of that industry. It was here, that
:28:21. > :28:25.the level of intellectualism that was involved, hearing how an
:28:25. > :28:32.ordinary working-class man spoke with such fission, those images of
:28:32. > :28:40.the men running out of the gates. It was so huge. What did this mean?
:28:40. > :28:44.It formed my own ideas of politics. Tom, what did it mean? Is it just a
:28:44. > :28:50.historical event these days? It was in the short run an enormous
:28:50. > :29:00.victory against the Government which is unusual. Lot of the venues
:29:00. > :29:04.
:29:04. > :29:08.have been propound as humanity over many sources. We are not far away
:29:09. > :29:16.from the context that we have had today in that period. The other
:29:16. > :29:20.thing that strikes me, the world that we have lost, people like read
:29:21. > :29:23.it work self educated. He left school at 14 and taught himself.
:29:23. > :29:30.The hidden background is the Communist Party, of which the
:29:30. > :29:33.leaders were members, made sure that they were well educated. I
:29:33. > :29:41.wonder whether that great tradition, that great cultural that tradition
:29:41. > :29:50.as apt. The Communist Party was in financial -- influential in those
:29:50. > :30:00.days. The fascinating thing is that has passed away. In no way did that
:30:00. > :30:05.
:30:05. > :30:13.leadership overtly state that the human factor was more important
:30:13. > :30:21.than capital. Elaine, the legacy? You only have to listen to Ed
:30:22. > :30:26.Miliband's speech, but you see that there is a desire, a desire to
:30:26. > :30:31.harness capitalism and say, there is another way her. It is not that
:30:31. > :30:39.I am a supporter but that attempt at a different sort of discussion,
:30:39. > :30:49.it came to me. Everything you say about morality, humanity and other
:30:49. > :30:49.
:30:49. > :30:54.things, it is more about that. We have lost that. It is not a
:30:54. > :31:00.romantic legacy, we were not looking back thinking we should be
:31:00. > :31:06.in the shipyards again, it has redefined we are. Tom, there was a
:31:06. > :31:13.degree of support for UCS. We have pending strikes likely in the
:31:13. > :31:18.public sector in the UK at the moment. Is that degree of sympathy
:31:18. > :31:22.likely to be there in those strikes? It is not possible to tell
:31:23. > :31:28.yet because this is still to happen. The scenario is not significantly
:31:28. > :31:32.different to what it was then. If there is a lesson from the UCAS are
:31:32. > :31:35.working, it is not to be sectional or sectarian in the trade unions
:31:35. > :31:41.sense. They have to guard and support from all parts of the
:31:41. > :31:46.committee if they are going to be successful. They will be easily
:31:46. > :31:52.targeted otherwise by other sources of authority. That is a great.
:31:52. > :31:57.Because if you go down that old fashioned route, it puts people off.
:31:57. > :32:02.Ordinary workers are going, how does this reply -- relate to me?
:32:03. > :32:09.That disconnection between ordinary people. If the newspapers have the
:32:09. > :32:13.ability to say that anybody there goes on strike is evil, we have to
:32:13. > :32:20.say that we are those people wanting to live differently and
:32:20. > :32:26.this is unjust and unfair. That connect is important. The trade
:32:26. > :32:33.unions are in the period then had a terrible repetition because they
:32:33. > :32:39.had been three years of union discontent. This is why this idea
:32:39. > :32:44.of working to save the yards, the working was so innovative and
:32:44. > :32:50.successful. One of the things in the current situation, if some
:32:50. > :32:58.visionary could come up with something as a formula, they could
:32:58. > :33:02.be onto a winner. I detect a lot of anger, a lot of anger because the
:33:02. > :33:12.Elise, the bankers, the politicians and other elites can have betrayed
:33:12. > :33:20.-- have behaved badly. Isn't there a desperate anger, or rather that
:33:20. > :33:26.that -- that the angle was particular? The difficulty is these
:33:26. > :33:30.discontents are so widely spread. It is possible to play one group
:33:30. > :33:35.off against another. They will be a tougher challenge than it was with
:33:35. > :33:42.that particular period. The other thing is to sentimentalise, which
:33:42. > :33:47.is wrong, the period of the colics. There are no two yards in the Clyde
:33:47. > :33:53.which would not be there except for the working. You are adamant about
:33:53. > :33:58.that? Let's face it, that all economy disappeared a few years
:33:58. > :34:04.later. There's no doubt the Conservative Party learnt a lesson
:34:04. > :34:14.from that. We have to be hard on this group. Ironically, you could
:34:14. > :34:16.
:34:16. > :34:22.see that the success spawned the Was this a Scottish phenomenon?
:34:22. > :34:27.had global route. Tony Benn spoke last night about the little boy who
:34:27. > :34:31.gets stuck down the well, and the local community put a rope down. It
:34:31. > :34:38.is not long enough, they get a longer one and it is not long
:34:38. > :34:48.enough. The boy shouts "tie them all together". It is simplistic,
:34:48. > :34:55.but it is important. Many intellectuals are trying to harness
:34:56. > :35:00.the different ideas to say There is another way. Thanks to both of you.
:35:00. > :35:04.Unfortunately we are out of time. That is all for the Politics Show
:35:04. > :35:12.this week. Raymond be can and will be standing in at the same time
:35:12. > :35:22.next week. I will be going to Manchester to see how the candidate
:35:22. > :35:22.
:35:22. > :35:31.targeted on. -- the candidates are getting on. When it comes to
:35:31. > :35:35.support, Ed Miliband was in pretty powerful company. It added to
:35:35. > :35:45.everyone, but when a politician's gaffe is caught on camera, it is
:35:45. > :35:50.
:35:50. > :35:55.embarrassing. You want me to recite it? I can't. Whose idea was that?
:35:55. > :35:59.Be honest, who didn't feel for the Labour leader when our
:35:59. > :36:06.correspondent asked in this question. Can you name the three of
:36:06. > :36:12.them? Yes, as I say, though this Tom howls, Joanne Lamont and a
:36:12. > :36:18.third candidate who is also putting himself forward. The front-runner,
:36:18. > :36:24.Ken Mackintosh. The front-runner but you can't name him? He is an
:36:24. > :36:28.excellent candidate. That third candidate laughed it off publicly.
:36:28. > :36:38.I forget the names of my kids most of the time so it shows politicians
:36:38. > :36:39.
:36:39. > :36:46.are human. Baroness Warsi was given the same challenge for the Tories.
:36:46. > :36:51.Can you name them? We have Murdo Fraser, Jackson Carlaw, Ruth