:00:13. > :00:16.This week on the Politics Show: Late on Friday I stood outside the
:00:16. > :00:18.parliament in Greece, watching Papandreou face down his in peas in
:00:18. > :00:21.a knife-edge confidence vote. He won. Tomorrow the international
:00:21. > :00:23.markets will give their verdict. So is this Greek tragedy beginning its
:00:23. > :00:26.final act? Does Ed Miliband support the St
:00:26. > :00:28.Paul's protesters here at home? He says this morning that only the
:00:28. > :00:32.reckless would ignore the danger signals.
:00:32. > :00:38.And David Thomson is in the skies over Glasgow.
:00:38. > :00:45.The SNP believe it is time for Scotland to fly solo. Would this
:00:45. > :00:49.have a prop -- have an effect on how we will govern?
:00:49. > :00:53.On Politics Show Scotland: More on the eurozone crisis, and we will
:00:53. > :00:56.speak to the new leader of the Scottish Conservatives, and asking
:00:56. > :01:06.Ming Campbell why the Lib Dems are having another commission on home
:01:06. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :33:41.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1955 seconds
:33:41. > :33:47.It is about controlling Scotland's resources. If Scotland was
:33:47. > :33:57.independent now, we would be the 6th most prosperous comp -- country
:33:57. > :34:07.in the economic dog there are many arguments about having a fairer and
:34:07. > :34:11.
:34:11. > :34:17.more just society. And not been governed by a...
:34:17. > :34:25.If offered to an auction between Labour rule or Tory rule -- home
:34:25. > :34:30.rule or Tory rule in Scotland, most would vote for home rule. RBS and
:34:30. > :34:34.HBOS would have gone up in flames if you were independent, and with
:34:34. > :34:43.their collective liabilities, 30 times the size of Scotland's GDP.
:34:43. > :34:47.It would be in a worse state than Ireland and Greece and Portugal.
:34:47. > :34:52.in a better state than UK, Denmark and Finland, which are better off
:34:52. > :34:56.than the United Kingdom. We may have regulated the Bank's better,
:34:56. > :35:00.rather than making some catastrophic mistakes like
:35:00. > :35:05.Westminster. Maybe be be joining in with the international community to
:35:05. > :35:10.try to stabilise finances. The reality is, of Scotland became an
:35:10. > :35:14.independent company at the moment, her resources to population, we
:35:14. > :35:24.would be the 6th most prosperous countries. Not just because of oil
:35:24. > :35:26.
:35:26. > :35:32.and gas resources, but that Scottish renewables are also a
:35:32. > :35:42.large source of wealth, and to not try to talk -- we do not try to
:35:42. > :35:45.
:35:45. > :35:55.talk down our nation. One of the interesting things is,
:35:55. > :35:58.
:35:58. > :36:02.would the end of the signalled by devo-max? Well, there is no need
:36:02. > :36:07.for a Barnett formula If you have full and fiscal responsibility. On
:36:07. > :36:13.that basis, we would be hoping for your advocacy and support. If we
:36:13. > :36:16.were an independent Scotland, that happens as a matter of course.
:36:16. > :36:24.English people are pretty supportive of Scotland's
:36:24. > :36:28.aspirations. But the Westminster political class is not. If they
:36:28. > :36:34.keep moaning about subsidised Scots, why are they not supporting the
:36:34. > :36:41.campaign for financial independence? Surely they should be
:36:41. > :36:45.the cheerleaders. Who's going to be able to Fulton the referendum? You
:36:45. > :36:52.have talked about the Scottish nation, but will Scottish people
:36:52. > :36:59.who live in England and live abroad be able to vote? The mandates from
:36:59. > :37:02.the voter's role of Scotland. That is people resident of Scotland, and
:37:02. > :37:06.also includes people abroad who have been registered over the last
:37:06. > :37:11.10 years. So it is the taxation base for Scotland. It does not
:37:11. > :37:15.matter where you are born, it is whether you are contributing to
:37:15. > :37:20.Scotland as a country. You could not have registered overseas
:37:20. > :37:27.voters? We do have registered overseas voters at the present
:37:27. > :37:35.moment. That is on the voters' roll. That is not unusual or different.
:37:35. > :37:43.That is the basis on which we had the referendum on devolution. It
:37:43. > :37:52.will be the people on the voters' roll in Scotland. I will leave you
:37:52. > :37:55.to a beautiful day. Thank you. Later in the programme, viewers in
:37:55. > :38:05.Scotland can hear what the Scottish Conservatives' leader makes of all
:38:05. > :38:12.
:38:12. > :38:19.Welcome. Where now for the eurozone crisis? And what will be the ripple
:38:19. > :38:22.effect for Scotland? It is all change in the Scottish Tory party
:38:22. > :38:25.leadership, but are there thoughtful new policies to detoxify
:38:25. > :38:27.the brand, or was it just seemed old message delivered by a new
:38:27. > :38:30.face? And how will Ruth Davidson lead a
:38:30. > :38:33.divided party forward? I am at the National Liberal Club
:38:33. > :38:41.in London, wondering what the latest Home Rule Commission has
:38:41. > :38:44.four. -- is for. We will be looking at why teachers
:38:44. > :38:47.are planning to strike for the first time in 25 years. Here is the
:38:47. > :38:51.lunchtime news with Sally McNair. A seven-year-old boy has died from
:38:51. > :38:53.his injuries following a car crash on the A9 in Perthshire. The child
:38:53. > :38:57.was seriously injured in the collision north of Bankfoot on the
:38:57. > :39:02.Perth-to-Inverness road. A 31-year- old man, who was in the passenger
:39:02. > :39:04.seat, also died in the crash on Friday evening.
:39:04. > :39:07.A senior QC has branded the Scottish Conservatives
:39:07. > :39:10."dysfunctional morons" and resigned from the party. Paul McBride who
:39:10. > :39:14.was a justice adviser to Annabel Goldie resigned just hours after
:39:14. > :39:18.Ruth Davidson was elected the party's new leader. He insists his
:39:18. > :39:23.departure has nothing to do with Ms Davidson, he is resigning over the
:39:23. > :39:26.Scottish Tories performance on criminal justice.
:39:26. > :39:30.If you were out enjoying the fireworks last night, spare a
:39:30. > :39:33.thought for the people of Oban. A technical hitch saw the community
:39:33. > :39:37.fireworks all released at the same time during the town's display on
:39:37. > :39:41.Friday night. The event usually lasts around half an hour, but it
:39:41. > :39:46.was over in around a minute! The organisers had to apologise to a
:39:46. > :39:49.crowd of hundreds, and explain that they had had their lot. And the
:39:49. > :39:55.weather: Glorious day across most of the country, and set to stay
:39:55. > :39:57.that way with some good sunny spells developing. Across the
:39:57. > :40:00.Western Isles and Skye, it will be cloudier at times. Temperatures
:40:00. > :40:03.will peak around 12 Celsius, and winds will be light. The
:40:03. > :40:09.combination of clear skies and light winds will allow mist and fog
:40:09. > :40:17.to re-form again after dusk. There is more from the newsroom at 6.15pm.
:40:17. > :40:20.In the meantime, back to Isabel for the rest of the Politics Show.
:40:20. > :40:23.As Greece remains in political deadlock over its debt crisis, the
:40:23. > :40:25.prospect of it defaulting and dropping out of the euro is the
:40:25. > :40:29.ongoing nightmare scenario for political leaders across Europe. If
:40:29. > :40:31.Greece goes bankrupt, economists predict a new credit crunch. Even
:40:31. > :40:34.less cash for banks to lend to businesses and individuals would
:40:34. > :40:44.have a direct and highly damaging impact on Scottish manufacturing
:40:44. > :40:44.
:40:44. > :40:50.and exports. The UK Government is prepared to increase funding to the
:40:50. > :40:55.IMF's bailout fund, up to �40 billion.
:40:55. > :40:59.No country in the global economy can be an island. We are an
:40:59. > :41:04.enormously dependent world. We have to play a role as one of the
:41:04. > :41:08.largest economies in the world, we set up the IMF to make sure that
:41:08. > :41:13.there was a mechanism to support countries. To be clear, you are
:41:13. > :41:17.happy with the money that we give to the IMF going to Greece? I am.
:41:17. > :41:20.That has been agreed. The Greek Prime Minister George
:41:20. > :41:23.Papandreou will meet the leader of the opposition Andonis Samarass
:41:23. > :41:25.later today to try to break the political deadlock. Mr Samarass is
:41:25. > :41:28.so far refusing to join a government of national unity,
:41:28. > :41:32.despite this being a condition of further financial support being
:41:32. > :41:37.given to Greece. Without this money, economists predict Greece could be
:41:37. > :41:41.bankrupt and out of the euro by Christmas. In our Edinburgh studio
:41:41. > :41:48.is the SNP MEP Alyn Smith. And with me here is David Martin the Labour
:41:48. > :41:55.Member of the European Parliament. Thank you for coming in. Do you
:41:55. > :42:01.think a default is inevitable? There are considerable problems
:42:01. > :42:08.with the Greek economy. It is arguable that default has already
:42:08. > :42:12.happened. The fact that the Prime Minister of Greece is trying to
:42:12. > :42:16.form a coalition unity government is a positive step, but I fear that
:42:16. > :42:21.it is too little, too late. It is dreadful news for the people of
:42:21. > :42:26.Greece and the wider European economy. More money is going into
:42:26. > :42:35.the IMF, and David Cameron said that will not necessarily go to be
:42:35. > :42:42.allowed the eurozone, but Danny Alexander says it will. We did make
:42:42. > :42:47.more sense if they international bank became a last resort? It is
:42:47. > :42:52.very clear that we do not have a crisis over the euro, as such. The
:42:52. > :42:57.eurozone is stronger than the British economy. We have an
:42:57. > :43:01.internal banking problem inside the euro-zone. It is helping the Greek
:43:01. > :43:08.banking system. If we do not help that, that will have an impact on
:43:08. > :43:11.the French, German and eventually on the UK banking system. If we do
:43:11. > :43:18.not settle the Greek financial banking crisis, we have a real
:43:18. > :43:23.problem. I agree, that we are at one minute to midnight, where it is
:43:23. > :43:28.not clear if this is able to come through this crisis on its own.
:43:28. > :43:31.Greece does not, and we have a freeze on lending, with a massive
:43:31. > :43:36.loss of confidence, and potentially a domino effect with other
:43:36. > :43:42.countries like Spain, Italy and Ireland, what effect could that
:43:42. > :43:45.have in Scotland? People tend to think that this is an argument --
:43:45. > :43:50.Academicals argument a long way away. It is not. The banks are
:43:50. > :44:00.committed to vary his debt to that they are holding already for Greece.
:44:00. > :44:02.
:44:02. > :44:06.-- the... We do need to see much more co-ordinated international
:44:06. > :44:14.action across the eurozone and wider across the IMF, than we have
:44:14. > :44:19.seen today. The G20 summit we just saw was depressing. Those of us
:44:19. > :44:26.looking for answers, we did not see any. What would you make of the
:44:26. > :44:32.role of the European Central Bank in the central issue about what
:44:32. > :44:36.role it should play? Germany would have great concerns about inflation,
:44:36. > :44:40.were the Bank to take a bigger role here. The Germans are already
:44:40. > :44:44.talking about treaty revision and changed to those countries who are
:44:44. > :44:47.part of the eurozone. The European Central Bank needs to come into
:44:47. > :44:52.that in terms of the role it should play. Presently it is structured on
:44:52. > :44:58.the German model, that inflation fighting is his number one priority.
:44:58. > :45:04.We need to dust that off, and see if we need to look at other roles
:45:04. > :45:09.for it as a lender of last resort, but making things up as we go along
:45:09. > :45:18.is a danger. We need to see the people of Greece and their
:45:18. > :45:24.politicians taking this seriously, All the levers that could have been
:45:24. > :45:27.used here to persuade the Greek political club and the wider
:45:27. > :45:32.population to adopt a certain attitude, none of that seems to
:45:32. > :45:36.have worked. We know that 70% of Greeks want to say within the Euro
:45:36. > :45:43.and that they see it as a shield. But nothing seems to be persuasive
:45:43. > :45:47.the end of this. There is a lack of reality. A partly. But I think we
:45:47. > :45:53.got the right package for one half of the problem one week ago. That
:45:53. > :45:57.dealt with the banking crisis. I have sympathy for the Greeks and
:45:57. > :46:00.other European companies. If there was nothing in that package to
:46:00. > :46:04.stimulate growth. What we have been arguing for in the European
:46:04. > :46:12.Parliament is a system of European bonds. Governments can then borrow
:46:12. > :46:16.cheaply to get the economy moving. That seems to punitive? To punitive.
:46:16. > :46:19.It does not stimulate growth or get the economy moving. There is a
:46:19. > :46:23.demand for infrastructure projects, which would help get the economy
:46:23. > :46:28.moving. People will not borrow more money if they know they will see
:46:28. > :46:31.their level of income being reduced. And we need to stimulate demand.
:46:31. > :46:35.Allen, do you think there is enough discipline within the Greek
:46:35. > :46:41.political structures, or whatever amount of money you put in, to
:46:41. > :46:47.actually, to this? Simple answer, no. George Papandreou made a number
:46:47. > :46:50.of promises the best part of three months ago. I said on Good morning
:46:50. > :46:55.Scotland that the people of Greece are just not up for this. They're
:46:55. > :47:01.not behind their politicians. It is only a matter of time for the Greek
:47:01. > :47:03.economy. Thank you. On Friday, the majority of the Tory
:47:03. > :47:06.faithful decided the 32-year-old newbie MSP Ruth Davidson was the
:47:06. > :47:09.best candidate to lead them out of the electoral wilderness shying
:47:09. > :47:15.away from Murdo Fraser's radical plan to scrap the existing party
:47:15. > :47:18.and start all over again. As the dust settles and the membership are
:47:18. > :47:28.supposed to shuffle into a united line behind Davidson, Christine
:47:28. > :47:31.
:47:31. > :47:36.Macleod has this report. I am very pleasure is to declare
:47:36. > :47:41.Ruth Davidson the leader... Ruth Davidson's Christ the top has been
:47:41. > :47:50.meteoric. She was a party member for three years and a MSP for just
:47:50. > :47:57.six months. Now she has beaten Murdo Fraser -- Murdo Fraser to the
:47:57. > :48:00.top. She defended the status quo. am disappointed I was not able to
:48:00. > :48:04.persuade more of our members and my vision for the future was the
:48:04. > :48:08.correct one. But I congratulate Ruth Davidson on her victory and
:48:08. > :48:12.she will have my full support. what convince the party should have
:48:12. > :48:16.the right choice for them? Is it partly that Ruth Davidson is seen
:48:16. > :48:21.as a younger version of the popular outgoing leader, Annabel Goldie.
:48:21. > :48:30.Many would argue she is just as charismatic, smart and articulate.
:48:30. > :48:35.But if these qualities did not help Annabel Goldie, what chance has
:48:35. > :48:37.Rhys Davids and? I think, to be honest, are what Murdo Fraser
:48:37. > :48:43.proposed was a last throw of the dice for the Scottish Conservative
:48:43. > :48:47.Party. What Ruth Davidson proposes is more of the same - trying a bit
:48:47. > :48:53.harder next time, one more heave. The very approach the party has
:48:53. > :48:57.adopted since 1987 -- 1997 and it has failed to produced any
:48:57. > :49:00.beneficial results. Despite being young, she has failed to convince
:49:00. > :49:05.some of the Young Conservatives that she can lead the party back to
:49:05. > :49:08.victory without adopting some of the ideas of Murdo Fraser. They say
:49:08. > :49:13.they welcome her refreshing face but would far rather she had a
:49:13. > :49:18.refreshing policies. She has to adopt the bulk of Murdo Fraser's
:49:18. > :49:22.proposals to make his Conservative Party more independent and an
:49:22. > :49:25.independent voice for her at Scotland as part of the Union. He
:49:25. > :49:30.she has to have any success electorally, she will have to take
:49:30. > :49:33.on what Murdo Fraser has said. new leader now faces big challenges,
:49:33. > :49:39.not least by she goes about rebuilding the Scottish
:49:39. > :49:43.Conservatives. 45% of the party backed Murdo Fraser for leader.
:49:43. > :49:46.leadership election has been quite divisive. You have certainly had
:49:46. > :49:52.one candidate who has put forward quite radical options for change
:49:52. > :49:55.and a lot of people have bought into that. A lot of party members,
:49:55. > :50:00.even on first or second preferences, have decided that it is quite a
:50:00. > :50:05.good idea. She has a job on that level to unite party members. But
:50:06. > :50:10.she also has it with the MSPs. A large number of whom really
:50:10. > :50:13.supported Murdo Fraser. There are more big challenges ahead. Squaring
:50:13. > :50:23.up to Alex Salmond at Hollywood, the test of the council elections
:50:23. > :50:26.
:50:26. > :50:31.in six months' time and fighting in the SNP in a referendum on.
:50:31. > :50:38.And now, at Ruth Davidson is joining me. What happens to Murdo
:50:38. > :50:43.Fraser? I spoke to him after the count on Friday. It was all quite
:50:43. > :50:46.chaotic. I made sure I phoned all of the MSP group on Friday and
:50:46. > :50:49.talked them through the next few days. We're having a good meeting
:50:49. > :50:53.on Tuesday lunchtime and we will have set down face-to-face as with
:50:53. > :50:57.all the members after that. We will talk about sorting people into
:50:57. > :51:02.their new roles. What is the new role for Murdo Fraser? I need to
:51:02. > :51:05.discuss that with him first. It would be breaching a certain level
:51:05. > :51:11.of protocol to discuss at a live television! But there will be a
:51:11. > :51:15.very big role for him. This was an energising contest for our party.
:51:15. > :51:19.Are we really did capture the imagination of our electorate
:51:19. > :51:25.within the party and within the media. I think that we're a much
:51:25. > :51:30.stronger party for having had this election. Presumably, Murdo Fraser
:51:30. > :51:34.has to have a very big role. He has a very substantial minority within
:51:34. > :51:38.the party who think you direction is completely the wrong direction
:51:38. > :51:42.to head in. Unless you take Murdo Fraser with you, you're not going
:51:42. > :51:50.to take them with the, are you? Absolutely. It would only be fair
:51:50. > :51:57.to Murdo Fraser. After the result, he was very gracious and said he I
:51:57. > :51:59.had his full backing. How do you square that circle? You saying
:51:59. > :52:03.there is an interesting situation were dear presented yourself as a
:52:03. > :52:07.candidate for change, but actually, a lot of people analysing what we
:52:07. > :52:11.know so far of your policies say it is just the same policies with a
:52:11. > :52:15.different voice. Murdo Fraser wants something very radical and
:52:16. > :52:20.different. As a new leader, how do you square that circle? You have to
:52:20. > :52:23.take into account for we have been. A leadership election is a forum
:52:23. > :52:27.where different members of the party put forward their ideas of
:52:27. > :52:33.where they want the party to go. In the selection, we do not have some
:52:33. > :52:37.form of opaque electoral college. It is one-member, one-vote. The
:52:37. > :52:44.party decide on the direction it wants the party to go on for some
:52:44. > :52:48.again three as that leader. The party will come together. We know
:52:48. > :52:54.that a significant number of MSPs did not support you. There is a
:52:54. > :52:58.message quoted in the Sunday Herald today from a senior Tory saying it,
:52:58. > :53:08."I or her nothing. I have nothing but contempt for her. Was the last
:53:08. > :53:12.
:53:12. > :53:17.longer than Wendy"? And... I am not sure that that is a MSP. It is a
:53:17. > :53:21.matter of fact that a significant number of MSPs do not support you.
:53:21. > :53:25.This is a vicious quote. You're suggesting it is all sweetness and
:53:25. > :53:28.light in the party. Passions run high. It is a leadership election.
:53:28. > :53:34.I want to see the party working at all levels and coming closer
:53:34. > :53:37.together. The political party is much more than myself. It is a
:53:37. > :53:41.council representatives, are activists and are Office workers.
:53:41. > :53:45.It is about moving us forward. Let's look at some of your policies.
:53:45. > :53:50.The test of our policies will be to ensure that they all this up the
:53:50. > :53:57.biggest in our society as well as the strongest, according to you. We
:53:57. > :54:01.knew we introduce prescription charges? We would, absolutely. A
:54:02. > :54:05.prescription charges were not universal. They did not apply to
:54:05. > :54:11.people who run certain benefits or a were pregnant or under a certain
:54:11. > :54:15.age or at university. The estimate is that 600 and 1000 adults and
:54:15. > :54:19.Scotland are earning less than �16,000 and were not entitled to
:54:19. > :54:23.free prescriptions. If they were to reintroduce it, we have to look at
:54:23. > :54:27.the parameters of that. So there would be a cut-off level for this?
:54:27. > :54:31.Below a certain income you did not have to pay them? I love the
:54:31. > :54:36.presumption that we are the Government of Scotland, but yes!
:54:36. > :54:41.What is your policy on prescription charges? They if you can afford to
:54:41. > :54:46.pay, you should pay. The weather �16,000 is the cut-off for not,
:54:46. > :54:51.there is work to do on that. This is a key policy and who do not know
:54:52. > :54:56.whether cut-off comes. Isabel, I laid out yesterday with the
:54:56. > :55:00.direction of travel for us as a party. The direction of trouble for
:55:01. > :55:06.us as a party in balls reassessing our policies going forward. I am
:55:06. > :55:10.not the no change candidate. A lot of our chain for the structural and
:55:10. > :55:15.policy based. It involves Breen people in to be involved in those
:55:15. > :55:20.discussions. As leader, I do not unilaterally we write our manifesto
:55:20. > :55:25.tomorrow and impose it. But you must have very clear ideas how you
:55:25. > :55:30.translate this into specific policies. Can I ask you about the
:55:30. > :55:34.Scotland Bill? You said this was a line in the sand. So far and no
:55:34. > :55:39.further. From a poll that we see today conducted by the BBC politics
:55:39. > :55:45.show, it shows that the majority of Scots actually want more powers
:55:45. > :55:47.than exist at the moment. What it said is, do you want more powers
:55:47. > :55:52.that exist at the moment? The Scotland Bill has a been
:55:52. > :55:56.implemented yet. It is quite clear. Our political staff have reviewed
:55:56. > :55:59.this in detail. It is more powers than those that will be brought
:55:59. > :56:03.forward for will be implemented through the Scotland Bill. He had
:56:03. > :56:07.also said another bills, let's see how the Scotland Bill has
:56:07. > :56:12.implemented before we decide what we do. Is it in absolute line in
:56:12. > :56:16.the sand or not? A letter to make this incredibly clear for you. What
:56:16. > :56:20.I said on the Scotland Bill is, let's get it in and working on the
:56:20. > :56:26.ground. I do not see us going hugely beyond that in terms of
:56:26. > :56:30.devolving more powers. I qualified that with, in exactly the same
:56:30. > :56:33.statement, because this was at the launch of my campaign were one of
:56:33. > :56:38.your journalistic colleagues asked me this question, it is about
:56:38. > :56:42.making sure that evolution works. If there are small tweets in the
:56:42. > :56:46.future, then we need to look at them in terms of the practical
:56:46. > :56:51.applications of the Scotland Bill, but in terms of whether Scotland
:56:51. > :56:55.Bill takes us in terms of devolving some levels of fiscal autonomy and
:56:55. > :57:02.certain parts to Scotland, that is where I am comfortable and where
:57:02. > :57:07.want to see it stopped. SVRs. you're saying whatever the polls
:57:07. > :57:14.suggest, I have made up my mind? was asked on my position and I give
:57:14. > :57:18.my position. Can I ask you that given it is generally accepted that
:57:18. > :57:22.you were the preferred candidate of the powers that be in the party in
:57:22. > :57:25.the London, and that he certainly got the vote of some of the old
:57:25. > :57:30.diehards, the suspicion would be that that has happened because they
:57:30. > :57:35.feel that they can control youth. You have said that David Cameron
:57:35. > :57:43.will not be your boss. David Cameron would not be the boss of
:57:43. > :57:47.any buddied he won the selection. You're making very sweeping
:57:47. > :57:51.statements. In terms of saying that I got a huge amount of support, I
:57:51. > :57:58.am very pleased that some respected members of the party made their
:57:58. > :58:02.preference for me known. But someone like Murdo Fraser made
:58:02. > :58:06.other decisions. It is an unfair comparison. Also, David Cameron was
:58:06. > :58:13.very clear that he showed no preference for any member who was
:58:13. > :58:21.standing in this race. So David Cameron is not your boss. He is not
:58:21. > :58:25.my boss, because I'm the Leader of all Conservatives in Scotland. That
:58:26. > :58:29.is why the situation has changed. So it is only a structural point.
:58:29. > :58:33.It is not about you having an independent attitude about what
:58:33. > :58:37.happens in Scotland. I want to make policy but differs from David
:58:37. > :58:42.Cameron. Name three of his policies that you think he is getting one at
:58:42. > :58:45.the moment. I have big disagreements with Kenneth Clarke
:58:45. > :58:49.on short-term sentences. That is one area of disagreement. I
:58:49. > :58:55.disagree with the Chancellor on a couple of areas, which I have
:58:55. > :58:58.written to him about. Which are? One is about cancelling tax
:58:58. > :59:02.specific support for the computer games industry, which would have
:59:02. > :59:06.raised a huge benefit to the computer games industry which is
:59:06. > :59:10.very big in Scotland. I intend to continue to lobby the Chancellor on
:59:10. > :59:15.not. Another area that I talked about is the tax status of the
:59:15. > :59:19.Commonwealth Games in Glasgow 2014. Why is a different to the Olympic
:59:19. > :59:22.Games 2012 tax status? I want to see the best athletes coming up
:59:22. > :59:28.here, the best businesses being able to compete in the same way, to
:59:28. > :59:31.build this area, to be involved in the event, and I think that I will
:59:31. > :59:36.continue to use any and all influence that I have to fight
:59:36. > :59:39.Scott Bond's corner. When you were quoted as saying that David Cameron
:59:39. > :59:45.should set the time for the independence referendum, or what
:59:45. > :59:49.was meant by that? There were questions about whether there was a
:59:49. > :59:56.mechanism and whether London would do that. I said, if Alex Salmond is
:59:56. > :59:58.going to rig a referendum with the second question and saying is one
:59:58. > :00:02.decision outweighs the Independent's decision, but saying
:00:02. > :00:06.yes for independence, there is a point where the Prime Minister has
:00:06. > :00:16.to stand in. Ideally, it to be sorted out in Scotland but it would
:00:16. > :00:21.
:00:21. > :00:24.If it is apparent that Alex Salmond is rigging the elections, will I
:00:24. > :00:33.advise that we will take a stand on this? I am comfortable with doing
:00:33. > :00:36.so. Thank you. With an independence campaign looming, albeit a few
:00:36. > :00:37.years down the track, the other pro-union parties now have to
:00:37. > :00:40.decide how they will fight that campaign.
:00:40. > :00:42.Will they offer the voters even more powers for Holyrood, to
:00:42. > :00:45.counter the SNP's full-blown independence? The Liberal Democrats
:00:45. > :00:48.are first off the starting block. Sir Menzies Campbell, a former
:00:48. > :00:51.Olympic athlete, is in charge of his party's latest Home Rule
:00:51. > :01:00.Commission He says he will take his time to reach his conclusions. We
:01:00. > :01:04.will be speaking to him shortly. It was William Gladstone who, back
:01:04. > :01:09.in the late 1800s, sought to persuade his fellow liberals that
:01:09. > :01:12.they should become the party of home rule. At the time it was Home
:01:12. > :01:15.Rule for Ireland, and his conversion because he needed the
:01:15. > :01:19.support of Irish nationalists in the Commons the stop many a
:01:19. > :01:25.discussion about the merits a lot of home rule will have been had
:01:25. > :01:29.here, where Gladstone himself established in 1886, a few hundred
:01:29. > :01:34.metres from Parliament. According to reports, many a whisky
:01:34. > :01:42.will have been had here, too. But his taste in home rule was not
:01:42. > :01:45.shared by all his party. Through the centuries, the label has stuck,
:01:45. > :01:55.and even today the Liberal Democrats see themselves as the
:01:55. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :02:00.party of home rule. The number of yes faults, 1,230,937.
:02:01. > :02:05.Liberals backed devolution in the 1979 referendum, and after that
:02:05. > :02:09.failed under the 40% rule, supported the setting-up of a
:02:09. > :02:14.Scottish constitutional Convention to come up with a blueprint for
:02:14. > :02:19.self government. It was not until 1927 -- 1997 at that dream was
:02:19. > :02:25.realised, and the creation of the Scottish Parliament. Coalition poly
:02:25. > :02:29.-- politics in Edinburgh were born. But Lib Dems and dash FOR home rule
:02:29. > :02:38.were an satiated. Five years ago, Lord Steel was back with a
:02:38. > :02:45.commission that move things on. A blueprint including financial
:02:45. > :02:49.autonomy. The fact that this deal Commission
:02:49. > :02:55.is there makes it very hard for the Liberal Democrats to play an active
:02:55. > :02:57.role in the constitutional debate. On the other hand, the problem with
:02:57. > :03:07.the commission is that it recommended Unionism without
:03:07. > :03:17.telling them why -- why the union was doing various things.
:03:17. > :03:27.
:03:27. > :03:31.With an independence for a It was arguably Gladstone's home
:03:31. > :03:40.will plans that helped foster a nationalism that paved the way for
:03:40. > :03:44.the Irish Republic's independence. More than a century on, some may
:03:44. > :03:47.wonder if Scotland is on the same path.
:03:47. > :03:49.And the MP for North East Fife and former Liberal Democrat Leader, Sir
:03:49. > :03:54.Menzies Campbell, is here with me now.
:03:54. > :03:59.Thank you for coming in. An outside observer might say that the Lib
:03:59. > :04:04.Dems are all over the shop on this one. They support federalism, Lord
:04:04. > :04:10.Steel came up with radical proposals for fiscal autonomy, and
:04:10. > :04:17.the Lib Dems and Holyrood backtracked on Calman Commission.
:04:17. > :04:20.What is your remit on this? It is to set out in detail, fill all the
:04:20. > :04:24.gaps in the traditional Liberal Democrat policy on home rule. That
:04:24. > :04:29.used to be described as large-scale economics, but the world has moved
:04:29. > :04:33.on since then. That is why it is necessary for us to flesh out the
:04:33. > :04:39.bounce, and we will do it at local government level, National Holyrood
:04:39. > :04:44.level, and Westminster. We will do it for Europe, as well. But do you
:04:44. > :04:49.think that the argument has moved on beyond what has been outlined in
:04:49. > :04:57.the Scotland Bill? It is easy to see the Scotland Bill's Christmas
:04:57. > :05:03.tree on which you hang things. -- as a Christmas tree. The Calman
:05:03. > :05:08.Commission was our careful and considered approach, and we are
:05:08. > :05:11.setting out a considered approach to the ultimate destination -- to
:05:11. > :05:16.decide what the ultimate destination should be. No point in
:05:16. > :05:26.responding its two sermons on the Mount from Alex Salmond. Let us do
:05:26. > :05:36.it in a proper time, and get the right answer. To a lot of first
:05:36. > :05:38.
:05:38. > :05:44.observers,... My Commission, which is composed by experienced people
:05:44. > :05:52.in local and national government, will seek to put flesh on the bones
:05:52. > :05:58.of home rule. The poll makes it clear that it breaks into thirds. A
:05:58. > :06:05.third for independence, a third for status quo, and a little more than
:06:05. > :06:13.a third for powers for a Scottish Parliament. If we lead on from that,
:06:13. > :06:18.into the independence question. There should not be one.
:06:18. > :06:23.Independence is such a major departure from the arrangements for
:06:23. > :06:27.a number of years. -- there should be one. If the public say they want
:06:27. > :06:33.independence that will be a clear expression of opinion. If they say
:06:33. > :06:40.no, we then have to ask what else? But putting two questions into the
:06:40. > :06:46.referendum seems an interesting device that has been exposed to try
:06:46. > :06:51.to lump the votes together, and then say, here is a mandate. But it
:06:51. > :07:01.would seem that the majority of people want devo-max, however that
:07:01. > :07:02.
:07:02. > :07:05.is defined. But I do not know what devo-max means. But we are going to
:07:06. > :07:11.define it in the context of home rule. They easily understood,
:07:11. > :07:16.something that needs the flesh put on the bones. If you define it, and
:07:16. > :07:18.it is something popular with the public, it gives the Liberal
:07:18. > :07:26.Democrats momentum, why not have devo-max against independence as
:07:26. > :07:30.the auction? If you think about it, for 300 years, we have been part of
:07:30. > :07:34.the United Kingdom. Independence represents an enormous step change,
:07:34. > :07:38.and that is why I believe the question should be put in clear and
:07:38. > :07:44.unequivocal terms to the Scottish people. I have explained what the
:07:44. > :07:49.consequences are of a yes or "no" vote. But it sounds that you have
:07:49. > :07:55.no confidence at this stage that the ideas you come up with women
:07:55. > :07:59.aged and energise the public. you are looking at this regard in a
:07:59. > :08:06.vote for independence. Is there a clear mandate for independence? The
:08:06. > :08:10.resolve that one way or another. If it is yes, then clearly we will be
:08:10. > :08:17.embarking on a complicated set of arrangements for withdrawal from
:08:17. > :08:26.the big United Kingdom. If it is no, I ask what kind of arrangements
:08:26. > :08:29.they want. We can then go on to the detail for. In that detail, Lord
:08:29. > :08:33.Steel's commission set out in great detail how it would work, but not
:08:33. > :08:37.the rationale for staying in the Union. Do you have to look at that
:08:37. > :08:42.this time around and making the argument? It is part of it,
:08:42. > :08:46.obviously. I believe in the United Kingdom, and believe we are
:08:46. > :08:49.stronger as part of the United Kingdom as a unit. I am opposed to
:08:49. > :08:55.independence because I believe Scotland would be less significant
:08:55. > :09:00.and important. Do you think the argument was made clearly enough in
:09:00. > :09:03.Lord Steel's commission? I am not rewriting that. This is the
:09:03. > :09:08.Campbell Commission, and we have the right people to help us. I have
:09:08. > :09:11.had a lot of offers in the last week from people with good
:09:11. > :09:15.constitutional knowledge and understanding. Anyone from south of
:09:15. > :09:20.the border? We are hearing that you can see what you like, but you
:09:20. > :09:26.cannot impose a settlement without English support. I have had offers,
:09:26. > :09:32.yes. They do not want to be aligned publicly, but are willing to offer
:09:32. > :09:37.advice and assistance. When would you report? As soon as we have got
:09:37. > :09:44.it right. I believe in getting it right, rather than quick. Late next
:09:44. > :09:50.year? I would imagine around autumn next year. Thank you.
:09:50. > :09:55.Earlier, a new survey indicated that 28% of those questioned in
:09:55. > :10:00.Scotland and 24 for English respondents favoured a severing of
:10:00. > :10:05.the Union. They were also asked about the other option, devo-max.
:10:05. > :10:10.The survey also indicated a further third wanted more powers than is
:10:10. > :10:14.outlined in the Scotland Bill. As usual, the issue of timing and
:10:14. > :10:18.mechanics of the referendum came up. This is a matter for the First
:10:18. > :10:23.Minister, who has brought forward their of -- proposition. He has
:10:23. > :10:28.been sketchy about what he will do, and when. I have repeatedly asked
:10:28. > :10:33.for details of the referendum to be spelt out for us to see a draft
:10:34. > :10:38.bill, so we can see what is proposed. We campaigned in the
:10:38. > :10:41.election, and said we would have a referendum on a straight question
:10:41. > :10:48.on independence, which would take place in the second half of this
:10:48. > :10:52.parliamentary term. We also allowed the option of asking a question
:10:52. > :10:56.called devo-max, on page three of the manifesto. In response to that
:10:56. > :11:03.timescale, putting forward the people of Scotland, we got the most
:11:03. > :11:12.overwhelming mandate in Scottish political he has to be.
:11:12. > :11:17.With me some -- for some expert analysis, we have Mandy Rhodes, the
:11:17. > :11:24.editor of Holyrood magazine, and we have Brian Taylor. We have heard so
:11:24. > :11:29.many as Campbell saying no to the referendum. -- Sir Menzies Campbell.
:11:29. > :11:36.I think most people want independence, or not. It is clear
:11:36. > :11:40.from the Euro poll, most people -- two-thirds of people want change.
:11:40. > :11:48.If the Lib Dems could get some momentum behind them, do you think
:11:48. > :11:51.that politically they could miss a trick? I think everyone seems to be
:11:51. > :11:54.frightened that they are being tricked into something by Alex
:11:54. > :12:00.Salmond. If the Lib Dems got their weight behind devo-max, which is a
:12:00. > :12:06.phrase that has not been coined by Alex Salmond, perhaps they could
:12:06. > :12:09.win. Brian Taylor, what did you make of it? The second question,
:12:09. > :12:14.that will only be on the ballot paper if there is agitation for it.
:12:14. > :12:17.What does Alex Salmond want to do? He wants a fall-back position of
:12:17. > :12:21.independents goes down, and wants to prise independence away from the
:12:21. > :12:29.UK party and prise Liberal Democrats from the Tories, in other
:12:29. > :12:31.words to divide the Unionist position. I think they are some
:12:31. > :12:34.Liberal Democrats in Scotland who are tempted to get devo-max on the
:12:34. > :12:38.ballot paper, but I think Michael Miranda Campbell Commission will
:12:38. > :12:46.have their way, the Liberal Democrats will not agitate for the
:12:46. > :12:49.option. -- Michael Moore and D Campbell Commission. Could it be a
:12:49. > :12:54.straight choice between devo-max and in the bend ins? That would be
:12:54. > :12:58.what was suggested by the academic who was having the discussions with
:12:58. > :13:03.the First Minister. Another words, you have a question asking if you
:13:03. > :13:07.want change, then a question saying independence versus devo-max. But
:13:07. > :13:10.Alex Salmond is saying his preferences for yes or No to
:13:10. > :13:15.independence. He will only have the other question if there is
:13:15. > :13:19.agitation for that from other sources. It is clear that they are
:13:19. > :13:24.coming towards a position of not agitating for it, so it is more
:13:24. > :13:29.likely than not that the referendum will be a straight yes or no. I am
:13:29. > :13:33.not absolutely certain. What did you make of Ruth Davidson's line in
:13:33. > :13:36.the sand on the Scotland Bill be reiterated? I think the problem is
:13:36. > :13:41.that she is someone who has said there is a lane in the sand, and
:13:41. > :13:46.she wants no more powers. Yet, two thirds of the people say that they
:13:46. > :13:53.want more powers. Other -- either she is going to be moved off
:13:53. > :13:55.realise she will not increase support. In terms of Murdo Fraser's
:13:55. > :14:00.supporters in the party, people who said they wanted very radical
:14:00. > :14:04.change, how difficult Willerby for her to come up with anything
:14:04. > :14:11.persuasive to them, never mind the rest of the public? It is difficult.
:14:11. > :14:16.The reality is that 60% of party members could even be bothered to
:14:16. > :14:20.vote in an election that they did not even need to leave the house to
:14:20. > :14:23.Fulton, and only half of them voted for Ruth Davidson in the first
:14:23. > :14:27.preference to be leader, and the other half voted for people who
:14:27. > :14:30.wanted the party to disband and changed completely. She is going to
:14:30. > :14:34.have to come out very quickly with radical ideas that she wants the
:14:34. > :14:39.people to stay with her. biggest problems she faces is the
:14:39. > :14:44.immediate problem in Parliament. Yes, she is the leader of the whole
:14:44. > :14:49.party, she has to energise them and work with the grass roots. I
:14:49. > :14:53.understand why she is saying that, but it is platitude, in terms of
:14:53. > :14:58.the relationship with the party. The challenge is working with that
:14:58. > :15:04.group, where the majority wanted Murdo Fraser. One MSP even
:15:04. > :15:08.suggested there would be a work to rule in the parliamentary roles.
:15:08. > :15:12.They would occupy the front bench positions, but might not be
:15:12. > :15:17.energetic and enthusiastic about it. Ruth Davidson needs to make sure
:15:17. > :15:22.they are not just going through the motions. She needs to make sure
:15:22. > :15:30.they are energetically advancing the course. If anyone can energise
:15:30. > :15:36.them it is hard. Is that enough, just to be energetic? What does she
:15:36. > :15:41.have to bring? I agree with Brian, she is very energetic and capable.
:15:41. > :15:45.She has very little political experience and background. I feel
:15:45. > :15:49.it was disingenuous to say that she was not backed by Cameron, because
:15:49. > :15:56.we all knew that David Cameron had her as his favourite -- favoured
:15:56. > :16:02.candidate. She will get his support, but whether that does her didn't
:16:02. > :16:06.Scotland, I am not sure. Do you think she can come into the party
:16:06. > :16:10.at this stage and do the shake-up people think it needs? She has to.