:00:11. > :00:17.This week: Clegg and Cameron seemingly at war over Europe. Can
:00:17. > :00:20.the Prime Minister survive the deputy minister's fury over
:00:20. > :00:28.decisions in Europe? This celebration over what has been
:00:28. > :00:32.seen as a victory in Brussels. Is Britain headed for an EU exit?
:00:32. > :00:37.Can the Government really turn around the lives of Britain's
:00:37. > :00:45.problem families by the end of this Parliament. The committee secretary
:00:45. > :00:49.Eric Pickles thinks so, but how? On the Politics Show Scotland, what
:00:49. > :00:54.will be the impact on the independence debate here of what
:00:54. > :01:00.David Cameron has done in Europe? The Scottish response to the
:01:00. > :01:06.Westminster welfare reform bill, MSPs are divided over how to
:01:06. > :01:11.protect the most vulnerable. The new anti-sectarianism laws are due
:01:11. > :01:21.to go before the Scott Parliament. Do you understand them? And we will
:01:21. > :01:29.
:01:29. > :01:39.discuss the impact of the UK Bill With me, the formal political
:01:39. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :29:21.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1661 seconds
:29:21. > :29:26.editor of the Observer, and the David Cameron said we would turn
:29:26. > :29:30.around the lives of the 125,000 most needy families. That is a bold
:29:30. > :29:36.claim. I think it is a bold claim and a
:29:36. > :29:42.bold objective of. Something needs to be done. Getting kids into
:29:42. > :29:46.school, people into jobs, and a reduction in anti-social behaviour.
:29:46. > :29:50.I think we have tended to be too complex and the way we deal with
:29:50. > :29:54.these families. And that will happen in the lifetime of this
:29:54. > :30:00.Parliament? Absolutely. Are we will make a
:30:00. > :30:04.significant difference. Truancy will be history? Petty
:30:04. > :30:12.crime will be history? We have good co-operation with
:30:12. > :30:15.local authorities. There is a broad political consensus on this. I
:30:15. > :30:21.would to authorities likes of Ford, Labour lead, which is doing a lot
:30:21. > :30:25.of work. We are seeing results in particular of authorities and we
:30:25. > :30:30.want to spread that into authorities throughout the country.
:30:30. > :30:37.Can I ask you about council tax. If the council tax goes up by more
:30:37. > :30:42.than 3.5%, local people should be consulted? What about the reverse,
:30:42. > :30:45.if a council wants to slash council tax but also cut services, should
:30:45. > :30:51.back council also have to go to a referendum?
:30:52. > :30:57.No, the job is to remove my powers of capping. I did not have powers
:30:57. > :31:05.to force councils to put up council tax. This is in place of me
:31:05. > :31:09.deciding. The people should decide. But of course this year, because of
:31:09. > :31:13.the off-fore we made, with the council tax freeze, we will give
:31:13. > :31:23.local authorities extra money to have that seal increase.
:31:23. > :31:28.
:31:28. > :31:37.UN the Politics Show Scotland, how will David Cameron's European
:31:37. > :31:39.fallout affect the Independent debate? What can Scotland do if it
:31:39. > :31:41.doesn't like Westminster's planned welfare reforms? The Health
:31:41. > :31:44.Committee is divided on a controversial solution.
:31:44. > :31:47.New anti-sectarianism laws are set to go through on Wednesday. Are
:31:47. > :31:49.they legally literate or just a mess? And another gaping divide
:31:49. > :31:59.looms between Westminster and Edinburgh - the UK Bill of Rights.
:31:59. > :32:03.First, the news with Graham Stewart. It has emerged that the Financial
:32:03. > :32:08.Services Authority will be highly critical of its own role and to a
:32:08. > :32:11.report on the collapse of the Royal Bank of Scotland. The document to
:32:11. > :32:14.be released tomorrow will say the supervision exercised by the City
:32:14. > :32:17.watchdog was deficient in many aspects, and its staff lacked the
:32:17. > :32:19.skills to monitor such a large bank. RBS needed a bailout of �45-billion
:32:19. > :32:22.from taxpayers. The number of Scots worried about
:32:22. > :32:25.money problems has increased in the last year. Citizens Advice Scotland
:32:25. > :32:35.dealt with more than half a million issues, many of them about tax,
:32:35. > :32:40.
:32:40. > :32:47.benefits and debt. Debts and benefits are deeper geishas. There
:32:47. > :32:51.was a 6% increase in debt issues, and a 6% increase in benefit issues.
:32:51. > :32:55.People are not getting enough income or are not getting the
:32:55. > :33:04.benefits they are entitled to. It is not people with minor issues but
:33:04. > :33:14.people who cannot afford to live. Scotland's poll lorry has won a
:33:14. > :33:14.
:33:14. > :33:22.tournament in the Middle East. It went down to the final hole.
:33:22. > :33:29.Let's take a look at the weather It will be an afternoon of sunshine
:33:29. > :33:33.and showers. The further east you are, it will be better weather.
:33:33. > :33:38.Some wintry showers in the North West. A mild afternoon with
:33:38. > :33:43.temperatures around six or seven degrees. When it's coming from the
:33:43. > :33:48.South West. This evening it will be dry, clear and cool but frequent
:33:48. > :33:51.showers across western parts. Temperatures around the ear for
:33:51. > :34:01.degrees. Thank you. I will be back with the
:34:01. > :34:03.
:34:03. > :34:08.Thank you very much. The fall-out from David Cameron's European
:34:08. > :34:11.stand-off intensify is this morning. But as the Prime Minister is
:34:11. > :34:16.determined to flood the Channel with clear blue water, what does
:34:16. > :34:21.that mean in terms of the independence debate? The cracks in
:34:21. > :34:24.the coalition are evident with the Deputy Prime Minister make like
:34:24. > :34:29.criticising the be top of the treaty saying, there was nothing
:34:29. > :34:33.bulldog about Britain hovering somewhere in the mid-Atlantic and
:34:33. > :34:36.that Britain would need to re- engage with Europe.
:34:36. > :34:42.I am bitterly disappointed with the outcome of last week's's summit.
:34:42. > :34:52.There is a real danger that over time, the United Kingdom will be
:34:52. > :34:52.
:34:53. > :34:59.I think that is good for jokes, I do not think it is good for growth
:34:59. > :35:04.and for families up and down the country.
:35:04. > :35:07.The shadow Secretary is equally so it -- scathing.
:35:07. > :35:11.David Cameron decided not to secure this deal and has burnt so many
:35:11. > :35:16.relationships, even if he had gone in with a reasonable demand, he
:35:17. > :35:20.might not have been successful. This is a terrible indictment of
:35:20. > :35:24.the diplomatic skills of the Prime Minister and the failure to judge
:35:24. > :35:30.accurately the importance of Britain not being left in a room
:35:30. > :35:33.with nobody else there. We have the president of the
:35:34. > :35:37.Scottish Liberal Democrat party with us. Do you agree with Nick
:35:37. > :35:40.Clegg? Agree it is disappointing and there
:35:40. > :35:46.is a risk of the UK being isolated but I also think we have to
:35:46. > :35:51.acknowledge that the scale of the economic crisis is such that the
:35:51. > :35:55.eurozone countries and those in the waiting zone, and the UK, are in
:35:55. > :36:01.different places. We have a plan to deal with the deficit as a result
:36:01. > :36:08.of which we have had -- retained hour credit rating statists, Andy
:36:08. > :36:12.eurozone does not have that. It is not in a position to accommodate
:36:12. > :36:16.Britain with somewhat divergent needs. I agree with Nick Clegg in
:36:16. > :36:21.that we must not allow this difference to marginalise or
:36:21. > :36:25.isolate Britain or to undermine all of the treaty obligations to which
:36:25. > :36:29.we are signatory, at which the other member states have to
:36:29. > :36:33.acknowledge her role in. It is important we take a constructive
:36:34. > :36:37.attitude and make it clear we are not taking our tents home. The
:36:37. > :36:41.eurozone has left us rather than the other way around, to some
:36:41. > :36:44.extent. If your objective is to ensure you
:36:44. > :36:51.are not marginalised, it is difficult to see how you can
:36:51. > :36:56.achieve that now. Is it not the case that the Liberal Democrat
:36:56. > :37:00.position would be better served now in an independent Scotland, in
:37:00. > :37:04.Europe? An independent Scotland in Europe
:37:04. > :37:09.is a complete irrelevance. They don't even know which come and say
:37:09. > :37:13.they would use. Why should it be? You are looking
:37:13. > :37:19.at a principle here. A Scotland wants to be pro-European and acted
:37:19. > :37:21.in Europe, the mechanics can be worked out. But there this a basic
:37:21. > :37:26.fundamental liberal Democrat principle which seems to have been
:37:26. > :37:31.sacrificed. I do not accept any of that. There
:37:31. > :37:39.is an economic reality, many of us have political support for the
:37:39. > :37:44.union, the European Union, that is very important, but the idea that
:37:44. > :37:49.the UK with a separate currency and a separate economic plan, which has
:37:49. > :37:53.strong market support, to simply subordinate itself to other member
:37:53. > :37:58.states with different strategies and do not have the ability to
:37:58. > :38:01.accommodate our differences, then it is much more difficult. An
:38:01. > :38:09.independent Scotland would have a big problem using either Stirling
:38:10. > :38:15.or the euro, and Scotland's negotiating position would be weeks
:38:16. > :38:25.to non-existent. We are then the Stirling's on, and we need to have
:38:26. > :38:26.
:38:26. > :38:33.the determination to deliver our plan. -- Sterling zone. We are not
:38:33. > :38:37.sulking, we are taking part. Are we want the euro to -- the euro to
:38:37. > :38:41.succeed. But at the moment we have a divergence of interests and we
:38:41. > :38:46.have to accept that. But as Liberal Democrats, who might
:38:46. > :38:49.want Britain to be a bigger part of Europe but what has been
:38:49. > :38:55.demonstrated is that when you agree something with David Cameron, he
:38:55. > :38:59.goes into talks, Nick Clegg is woken up at 4:30am and David
:38:59. > :39:04.Cameron delivers something make light describes as bitterly
:39:04. > :39:08.disappointing and against Britain's interests. You are not even talking
:39:08. > :39:12.I effectively to you coalition partners.
:39:12. > :39:17.Neither of us were there and I will no doubt hear from the Prime
:39:17. > :39:21.Minister Nick Clegg tomorrow about what happened. My understanding is
:39:21. > :39:25.that we agreed as a coalition government that we should see some
:39:25. > :39:30.recognition of the special interests of the UK's financial
:39:30. > :39:34.services. We did not going with a raft of renegotiation bed. You did
:39:34. > :39:40.not get that. And that was because the eurozone
:39:40. > :39:43.is in a much worse mess than the UK because they have no plan, and no
:39:44. > :39:48.deficit reduction strategy. President Sarkozy is facing
:39:48. > :39:52.oblivion, the Chancellor of Germany whose political situation is week,
:39:53. > :39:58.they are not in a position to listen to Britain. The Prime
:39:58. > :40:01.Minister was in a difficult position. It is not that we rather
:40:01. > :40:06.unreasonable but that they were unreasonable.
:40:06. > :40:09.How do you maintain a collision on a centrally important Liberal
:40:09. > :40:15.Democrat issued when you're on leader is saying he is bitterly
:40:15. > :40:20.disappointed? He feels we have been marginalised in Europe and that we
:40:21. > :40:24.have to redouble efforts to be engaged. How do you maintain the
:40:24. > :40:29.coalition? Can I say he is right about that
:40:29. > :40:34.but I looked at the BBC website which said that Clegg attacked
:40:34. > :40:38.Cameron, but that is not true. He did not blame the Prime Minister
:40:38. > :40:44.and I do not believe that the Labour Party or the SNP criticising
:40:44. > :40:47.us would find it any easier in a situation where desperate, panic-
:40:47. > :40:54.stricken eurozone members are anxious to get a deal which the UK
:40:54. > :40:58.is not even able to call cross. It would mean Europe dictating how we
:40:58. > :41:03.-- how we manage our economy while we are not part of theirs. I hope
:41:03. > :41:07.one day in the future we will have a successful euro zone, a strong
:41:07. > :41:11.euro and that one day, Britain might even join it, but I cannot
:41:11. > :41:15.see that happening soon and to deal with this desperate crisis, it is
:41:15. > :41:19.important that both sides recognise they are two different places, and
:41:19. > :41:24.we should move parallel and not against each other.
:41:24. > :41:28.If Thank you very much. Where does all of this leaves the
:41:28. > :41:35.constitutional debate in Scotland? How will Scotland's relationship
:41:35. > :41:39.with Europe there is the SNP won their independence referendum?
:41:39. > :41:47.David Cameron's decision to veto this treaty has left the UK looking
:41:47. > :41:52.more isolated than ever. But what does that mean for SNP's policy of
:41:53. > :41:58.independence in Europe? The process of joining the EU could be long,
:41:58. > :42:01.complex and costly. The idea that the SNP can take it
:42:01. > :42:05.for granted that Scotland would enter into the European Union
:42:05. > :42:10.without negotiation or consideration of these issues is
:42:10. > :42:14.entirely fanciful. One of Scotland's leading lawyers
:42:14. > :42:17.says that an independent Scotland would automatically be part of the
:42:17. > :42:22.year and that the European Court would strike down any attempt to
:42:22. > :42:27.deprive Scott of their existing European citizenship.
:42:27. > :42:32.All spot to watch existing EU citizens would be 10 that EU
:42:32. > :42:35.citizenship, and therefore be so session of Scotland or the break-up
:42:35. > :42:39.of the United Kingdom would not result in the loss of that
:42:39. > :42:42.citizenship so Scotland would remain a member of the year and it
:42:42. > :42:46.would be a question of the recognition of that membership by
:42:46. > :42:52.the other states. The Scottish Government would seek
:42:52. > :42:56.back recognition following a yes vote in the independence referendum.
:42:56. > :43:00.Scotland is part of the Europe -- European Union and an independent
:43:00. > :43:07.Scotland would continue to be a member of the European Union. With
:43:07. > :43:11.the rest of the UK it would remain in that state is.
:43:11. > :43:16.Other member states are reluctant to save much at all about an
:43:16. > :43:20.independent Scotland's relationship with the European Union. But the
:43:20. > :43:26.SNP have told me there would be no political attempt to block
:43:26. > :43:31.Scotland's membership. SNP policy is to keep the pound but
:43:31. > :43:34.only joined the euro after another referendum but the most senior
:43:34. > :43:38.Scott in the UK Treasury says that would leave an independent Scotland
:43:39. > :43:44.vulnerable. Scotland within its monetary union
:43:44. > :43:50.but fiscally independent, the eurozone crisis tells us that a
:43:50. > :44:00.strong control of fiscal control would have to be exercised
:44:00. > :44:03.
:44:03. > :44:07.centrally. Scotland having its independence would present a risk.
:44:07. > :44:10.True Scot of Edinburgh university denies this would make Scottish
:44:10. > :44:15.membership of the single currency inevitable.
:44:15. > :44:21.Scotland could not be forced under European law to adopt the euro. It
:44:21. > :44:26.is true that new member states have to sign up for event will a session
:44:26. > :44:29.to the eurozone, but one of the conditions you have to meet us to
:44:29. > :44:34.be in what is called the exchange rate mechanism for at least two
:44:34. > :44:39.years. There is no provision in European law to require a country,
:44:39. > :44:46.coming into the Union, far less another country that is already in
:44:46. > :44:52.the union, to join that arrangement. Scotland's relationship with Europe
:44:52. > :44:56.would be steered by a coalition government. A Scotland vote to deal
:44:56. > :45:06.directly with the EU as a full member state, the decisions made in
:45:06. > :45:06.
:45:06. > :45:10.the next four years would have huge Now we asked for an SNP Minister to
:45:10. > :45:15.discuss the issues on the programme this morning, but no one was
:45:15. > :45:22.available. But we do have two European expires with us - in our
:45:22. > :45:25.Europe -- Edinburgh studio, Dr David Howard who has the gene more
:45:25. > :45:30.ornate chair of European political economy at the University of
:45:30. > :45:36.Edinburgh. And in Glasgow with me is Dr Myrto Tsakatika from Glasgow
:45:36. > :45:44.University. We are does all this leave us now?
:45:44. > :45:48.It does raise the issue clearly of whether an independent Scotland
:45:48. > :45:56.have would want to join the European Union. It does make this a
:45:56. > :46:04.more salient issue. What is your sense of how Scotland is seen now
:46:04. > :46:09.within Europe? Scotland is certainly at region that punches
:46:09. > :46:19.above its weight within Europe. It is very well versed in policy now
:46:19. > :46:19.
:46:19. > :46:27.works. It is accustomed to working within a multi-level setting. So I
:46:27. > :46:30.am not sure how the member states, what attitude they would have
:46:30. > :46:36.towards a potential Scottish application to join the European
:46:36. > :46:40.Union. There are has been some speculation about sudden -- some
:46:40. > :46:44.federal countries potentially raising objections because they
:46:44. > :46:50.would not want their own regions with on its claims to go down that
:46:51. > :46:55.route. But this is pure a tick speculative. More generally, his
:46:55. > :47:01.policy in more pro-Europe than England within Europe do you think?
:47:01. > :47:06.It is very difficult to say. David, if we look now at the mechanics of
:47:06. > :47:10.all of this. We have had legal advice on the first -- last few
:47:10. > :47:16.months, is the bottom line not we do not know we are going here
:47:16. > :47:22.illegally, we do not know what the outcomes could be, it is all
:47:22. > :47:27.uncharted Chad to it? There scholar becomes a full member of the
:47:27. > :47:33.European Union from independence, it will not have an opt-out. It
:47:33. > :47:41.will be difficult to see the opt out that the United Kingdom
:47:41. > :47:44.negotiated for itself, and Ned -- Denmark negotiated, if Scotland is
:47:44. > :47:50.not an automatic member of the EU and has applied for membership,
:47:50. > :47:54.then an opt-out would definitely not apply. Because a new member
:47:54. > :48:00.state joining cannot normally, there is no precedent, of such a
:48:00. > :48:04.member state getting an opt-out from day one. Scotland is in a
:48:04. > :48:13.position where it is eventually expected to join the euro, but it
:48:13. > :48:17.will not be forced to join the euro at -- in the next few years. Other
:48:17. > :48:23.countries have fudged this for quite a long time. This seemed to
:48:23. > :48:27.be a Gordon Brown strategy. You think it there is that legal we
:48:27. > :48:33.wait there? Do there is no fundamental difference between the
:48:33. > :48:37.SNP policy today and the Government -- former Labour Government policy
:48:37. > :48:45.or even Conservative policy. All the major parties in this country
:48:45. > :48:50.believed that potentially United Kingdom, Scotland, could join the
:48:50. > :48:58.euro. But it would be subject to a referendum and it would only take
:48:58. > :49:03.place if the economic conditions are right. And, of course, we have
:49:03. > :49:07.seen defining when those conditions are right is very difficult. What
:49:07. > :49:12.about another had a letter -- hypothetical question, if Scotland
:49:12. > :49:17.had its own currency, you seem to suggest this could not happen, but
:49:17. > :49:22.if it did, could it then maintain its own currency and have
:49:22. > :49:25.membership of the EU and would that be way out of all this? This is
:49:25. > :49:30.what Alan Smith the SNP member of the European Parliament has
:49:30. > :49:35.proposed. Yes, it is the one sensible option. It gets the around
:49:35. > :49:41.the issue of Professor Scott was referring to, about Scotland not
:49:42. > :49:47.being able to become a member of the exchanger of mechanism. It
:49:47. > :49:53.would be a potentially sensible strategy for political reasons Cup
:49:53. > :49:57.and legal reasons, but of course would it be a sensible strategy
:49:57. > :50:02.economically? Many people would have severe doubts about the idea
:50:02. > :50:05.of Scotland adopting its own currency in the medium term.
:50:05. > :50:10.Especially after independence when there would be a lot of trepidation
:50:10. > :50:15.in the markets about the direction of an independent Scotland's
:50:15. > :50:19.economic policy. When you look get the timing, would Scotland be able
:50:19. > :50:23.to dictate the timing absolutely have when it got into the euro? Or
:50:23. > :50:30.will not be that straightforward ever goes into the euro? Well, what
:50:30. > :50:34.we have seen after the first group of countries forming the eurozone
:50:34. > :50:38.and the currencies started to circulate it is that there are
:50:38. > :50:42.different politics that the country's a dot on the run-up to
:50:42. > :50:52.joining the eurozone. For example, or wheezy smaller countries have
:50:52. > :50:58.
:50:58. > :51:05.rushed to join the eurozone. That shows that there is considerable
:51:05. > :51:10.leeway. As David mentioned before or about when countries actually
:51:10. > :51:14.obliged, are obliged to join the euro. Do you agree with the
:51:14. > :51:20.analysis earlier that the relationship with London is going
:51:20. > :51:25.to be important year in terms of what happens with Scotland was my
:51:25. > :51:29.relationship with the you? Absolutely. The conditions under
:51:29. > :51:35.Scotland will ask for membership, if it will have to ask for
:51:35. > :51:39.membership. And also negotiations about particular policy areas, the
:51:39. > :51:44.opt-outs, the politics and strategic alliances that Scotland
:51:44. > :51:47.can form with than the Europe. These will be essential and in the
:51:47. > :51:53.way in which independence could potentially happen will play a
:51:53. > :51:56.major role. Thank you both very much indeed.
:51:56. > :52:03.Now Scottish Ministers have been urged to think about how new laws
:52:03. > :52:08.to said -- soften the significant changes to their UK benefits system
:52:08. > :52:11.will work out. In a report into the Welfare Reform Bill, Holyrood's
:52:11. > :52:16.Health Committee is warning that the changes could mean cuts in
:52:16. > :52:20.payments to the most vulnerable. Stephen is being supported by the
:52:20. > :52:26.benefits system as the looks for a new job. We had to give up work
:52:26. > :52:30.after being diagnosed with depression. The administration of
:52:30. > :52:36.the system was full of errors and I was not given the help that I
:52:36. > :52:41.needed. He believes welfare reform is needed and supports change.
:52:41. > :52:50.introduction of in universal credit will be a simpler system, so
:52:50. > :52:54.overall it should be beneficial. David is anxious about change. He
:52:54. > :52:58.suffers from cerebral palsy and his disability living allowances such
:52:58. > :53:02.to be replaced with a new personal independence payment. He is
:53:02. > :53:09.concerned he might lose out because of plans to introduce new medical
:53:09. > :53:15.tests. I am worried that the new assessments may be because they do
:53:15. > :53:25.not know what the assessment is going to be based on. If you do not
:53:25. > :53:26.
:53:26. > :53:29.know something. With disability living allowance set to be cut by
:53:29. > :53:34.20%, Capability Scotland are predicting that most disabled
:53:34. > :53:39.people will lose out. Or only those with the more severe needs will
:53:39. > :53:46.only see any kind of increase. It is also the additional fact in the
:53:46. > :53:50.way the disabled people will be hit by those other benefits. They might
:53:50. > :53:54.lose the Blue badge, these mean significant changes and disabled
:53:54. > :53:59.people's lives. The UK government's say the reforms will end the cycle
:53:59. > :54:03.of generations trapped in a life of benefits. Children's rights groups
:54:03. > :54:09.fear that bill could plunge between 50 and 100,000 youngsters into
:54:09. > :54:14.poverty. The campaigners say that with an estimated �2.5 billion cuts,
:54:14. > :54:19.the changes will disproportionately affects Scotland. We have got
:54:19. > :54:23.higher numbers of people claiming disability benefits. There is also
:54:23. > :54:27.major concerns that the benefits will cut across a lot of Scottish
:54:28. > :54:31.Government's policies like their housing policy and impact on their
:54:31. > :54:36.homelessness policy costing more poverty and homelessness. So there
:54:36. > :54:42.will be major problems for us here in Scotland. The Welfare Reform
:54:42. > :54:46.Bill is Westminster's -- Westminster legislation. MSPs will
:54:46. > :54:52.be required to vote to allow legislation on welfare reform for
:54:52. > :54:55.the whole of the UK under a legislative consent motion. If MSPs
:54:55. > :55:00.back their health and Sport Committee and to not passed a
:55:01. > :55:04.motion, this means new Scottish legislation. You need to be clear
:55:04. > :55:08.in the contentious parts of the Bill. We think it will be better
:55:08. > :55:12.dealt within the Scottish Parliament and provide us with more
:55:12. > :55:17.clarity, more scrutiny and we would be able to manage and mitigate as
:55:17. > :55:23.best we can those impacts. committee concedes Holyrood will
:55:23. > :55:27.not be able to stop welfare reform by introducing its own bill.
:55:27. > :55:32.Citizens Advice Scotland are urging caution. What we do believe is that
:55:32. > :55:36.if they do not pass allows litters of consent motion, it will have a
:55:36. > :55:39.further effect of Scotland and will delay the Welfare Reform Bill
:55:40. > :55:43.coming in and Scotland which could impact on people being able to
:55:43. > :55:47.claim the benefits they are entitled to. The committee wants
:55:47. > :55:52.Holyrood to set up a welfare and benefits committee to assess the
:55:52. > :55:56.impact of the changes to people like to fret over the coming years.
:55:56. > :56:01.The Scottish Government's of -- response will be discussed in
:56:01. > :56:09.Cabinet next week with the votes in Parliament before the Christmas
:56:09. > :56:17.recess. We have but were Iain Duncan Smith over the past month
:56:17. > :56:20.but he has been unavailable every time. We have Labour's health
:56:20. > :56:25.spokesman Jackie Baillie. The deputy convener of the Health and
:56:25. > :56:29.Sport Committee for the SNP, Bob Doris and for the Conservatives,
:56:29. > :56:33.the deputy leader and health spokesman, Jackson Carlow.
:56:33. > :56:39.Do think the Government will vote against us? I suspect his Scottish
:56:39. > :56:43.Government will do that. Ice at the -- I understand they will review it.
:56:43. > :56:46.The Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament want to
:56:46. > :56:51.distance ourselves from was damaging aspects of these UK
:56:51. > :56:54.welfare reforms. To voted down is the way to do it. We have to be
:56:55. > :57:01.sure that we get the issue of passports to benefits correct if we
:57:01. > :57:04.choose to do that. That is what we're processing. This is what
:57:04. > :57:09.citizens advice are so concerned about. Briefly, if you do that,
:57:09. > :57:14.will you have time to get something else and then plays? Absolutely.
:57:14. > :57:18.The mechanism would be technical. We believe it can be done and
:57:18. > :57:23.ideally it will be done. It is important that we stand their side
:57:23. > :57:28.disabled people in Scotland, single parents, those are in social
:57:28. > :57:36.housing, to take �2.5 billion out of benefits for these people is
:57:36. > :57:41.unacceptable. Jackie Baillie, voting down and Elsie and has never
:57:41. > :57:44.been done before. It was Labour that introduce the amendment
:57:44. > :57:48.suggesting we follow this course of action. It is the case that these
:57:49. > :57:52.are the most damaging changes to the welfare state surly and my
:57:52. > :57:57.lifetime and they are having a disproportionate impact on people
:57:57. > :58:00.in Scotland. When I consider the disabled, those affected by council
:58:01. > :58:04.tax benefit changes, right across the board, Bob was right to
:58:04. > :58:09.highlight it will mean a 2.5 billion cut in the income of Scots
:58:09. > :58:13.moving ahead of the next few years. Beyond that, people are already
:58:13. > :58:17.estimating an independent reports that the level of child poverty
:58:17. > :58:21.will increase substantially. So yes it is about saying to the UK
:58:21. > :58:27.Government we dislike the content of here UK welfare reform bill. It
:58:27. > :58:31.is also saying to the Scottish Parliament, there will be
:58:31. > :58:38.responsibilities about how they should be best employed in Scotland
:58:38. > :58:42.to protect those most disadvantaged in our communities. We know from
:58:42. > :58:46.Citizens Advice the key benefits that you have mentioned, if the
:58:46. > :58:56.result if you for down the LC Ms then there is a delay in the Bill
:58:56. > :58:56.
:58:56. > :58:59.going through Westminster. Citizens Advice are concerned that that and
:58:59. > :59:04.practice will mean delays in the most vulnerable people getting
:59:04. > :59:07.these benefits. That is a risk you are running. There is no need for a
:59:07. > :59:11.delay. All governments understand what potentially could happen here
:59:11. > :59:16.and have prepared for those eventualities. We would not want to
:59:16. > :59:21.delay benefits. The UK Government is operating an extremely tight
:59:21. > :59:26.timetable to say all these changes need to be in by 20th April 13. We
:59:26. > :59:29.think that we should extend that timetable so that things are were
:59:29. > :59:34.through equally. Equally the Scottish Government is thinking
:59:34. > :59:40.about what they should do. I had hoped they had would do so earlier.
:59:40. > :59:44.I thought in areas they would have responsibility end, we would have
:59:44. > :59:47.some answers about the principles about how they would operate. I
:59:47. > :59:51.find it strange that a party that wants to control their welfare
:59:51. > :59:57.state is not telling us the detail of what they would do. You can
:59:57. > :00:07.respond to that in a moment. Jackson, the Conservatives attitude
:00:07. > :00:07.
:00:07. > :00:11.to the El cm? The whole purpose is to make Scotland to facilitate the
:00:11. > :00:19.policy with the greatest days. There is no advantage to
:00:19. > :00:23.Westminster. Every do not pass it - - if we do not pass it, it places
:00:23. > :00:28.are further obligation to come forward with primal way legislation.
:00:28. > :00:32.There is a question-mark over whether the timing of that can be
:00:32. > :00:37.expedited or whether or not it will lead to the delays people fear. It
:00:37. > :00:45.does not change the fundamental legislation and it is needed. Back
:00:45. > :00:49.in 1997, Labour was advocating welfare reform. We have waited 13
:00:49. > :00:52.years for a Labour Government to get to grips with this. The public
:00:53. > :00:57.understand it is an area that needs to be reformed. These are designed
:00:57. > :01:06.to give people dignity by moving them out of benefit and back into
:01:06. > :01:08.work. There are consequences. It is gesture politics I do not think it
:01:09. > :01:17.will survive the scrutiny and they do not think it will change the
:01:17. > :01:24.Let's look at something else. You want a committee set up to review
:01:24. > :01:30.the impact of the Welfare Reform Bill. Can you respond?
:01:30. > :01:34.It is not just to the SNP that are saying they want a committee set up.
:01:34. > :01:37.Three committees of the Scottish Parliament have looked at this and
:01:37. > :01:42.all three have agreed that a welfare and benefits committee
:01:42. > :01:46.should be set up. Another two committees also agreed. It was only
:01:46. > :01:53.when we got to the lead committee that the Labour members decided not
:01:53. > :01:59.to. They wanted set up for two reasons. They want to scrutinise
:01:59. > :02:02.and analyse the impact of these you care reforms. They also want to
:02:02. > :02:06.scrutinise the Scottish Government's approach to make them
:02:06. > :02:10.-- to mitigating best. I have to say that we had three
:02:10. > :02:14.committees doing this and the recommendation now is to have one.
:02:14. > :02:17.I am disappointed we have had more of a debate about form rather than
:02:17. > :02:21.function. But you are talking about what the
:02:21. > :02:27.UK is doing. It would be effective if you have a committee and scholar
:02:27. > :02:30.and saying this is a specifically Scottish effect.
:02:31. > :02:34.A have three committees currently charged with that, it will impact
:02:35. > :02:40.on more members of the Scot is Parliament and their consciousness.
:02:40. > :02:45.Also, we have broken the link between health, policy and welfare
:02:45. > :02:53.reform. If you set up a separate committee that is what happens. I
:02:53. > :02:57.am much more interested in talking about it.
:02:58. > :03:06.I am inclined to agree. I do not think which committee looks at it
:03:06. > :03:10.matters. We have a committee system. Is this your main concern? If a
:03:10. > :03:16.committee has set up that protects the most vulnerable, should you
:03:16. > :03:20.worry? My point is that I do not want a committee. It will not make
:03:20. > :03:24.the Government's poll -- government position any more comfortable. I
:03:24. > :03:29.think the current position is the right way forward. To argue that we
:03:29. > :03:38.need another committee almost undermines the report we just
:03:38. > :03:43.published, suggesting we were not effective. I do not believe that
:03:43. > :03:48.was the true. We have to look at how it impacts
:03:48. > :03:52.on Scotland. It is fragmented between three committees and we are
:03:52. > :03:57.suggesting want to consolidate. I agree with one thing. But we
:03:57. > :04:02.disagree on whether the committee should be established. The real
:04:02. > :04:07.issue is these UK, Tory cuts coming to Scotland. We have to mitigate
:04:07. > :04:17.the effects of these where we can. We have to make sure the Scottish
:04:17. > :04:22.Government is up to the task. Two out of the B.
:04:22. > :04:25.The final vote on the government's controversial sectarianism Bell, or
:04:25. > :04:28.to give it its full title, the Offensive Behaviour at Football and
:04:29. > :04:32.Threatening Communications Bill, is Scheduled for Wednesday this week
:04:32. > :04:38.at Holyrood. This government-backed Bill is expected to be voted
:04:38. > :04:41.through by the SNP majority. Scottish Labour have come up with
:04:41. > :04:46.an 11 point action plan which they say is an alternative to tackle the
:04:46. > :04:52.root causes of sectarianism without the need for new laws.
:04:52. > :04:58.Last season was controversial. This better exchange at what has been
:04:58. > :05:03.dubbed the shame game. And parcel bombs were sent to the Celtic
:05:03. > :05:07.manager. These were just some of the incident that prompted the
:05:07. > :05:12.Scottish Government to introduce new sectarian legislation. The
:05:12. > :05:15.proposal will crack down on offence of behaviour that and around
:05:15. > :05:21.football matches. But the Offensive Behaviour at Football and
:05:21. > :05:26.Threatening Communications Bill has come under widespread criticism. It
:05:26. > :05:31.was not backed at the last parliamentary hurdle calling bit
:05:31. > :05:35.muddled, slapdash and a shambles. Legal experts have I caught some of
:05:35. > :05:44.these concerns. It seems to me the Act is poorly
:05:44. > :05:51.drafted and it is not clear what inciting racial, sorry, pictured,
:05:52. > :05:56.means. -- hatred. People who the Act is to be applied to will
:05:56. > :06:03.clearly not understand what it means. This could lead to injustice
:06:03. > :06:06.and confusion. The society believes there are adequate defences
:06:06. > :06:10.available to prosecutors with regard to the incidents around
:06:10. > :06:16.sectarian behaviour at football matches and illegal use of the
:06:16. > :06:18.Internet. The fans who will be affected by
:06:18. > :06:24.the legislation also have their doubts.
:06:24. > :06:28.I think education is the key. I think they need to print it in
:06:28. > :06:31.law writing excite the what they can and cannot sing. It is not
:06:31. > :06:34.clear. They have to tell us what you can
:06:35. > :06:37.sing and what you cannot sing. It is all very well dishing out rules
:06:37. > :06:43.but they have to make things clearer.
:06:43. > :06:46.There is no need for that. The existing legislation is samples.
:06:46. > :06:52.Now, Labour who have asked the government to withdraw their
:06:52. > :06:55.legislation have come up with what they believe is a better way. Their
:06:55. > :06:59.approach would complement existing laws.
:06:59. > :07:07.We need to think about a comprehensive plan which involves
:07:07. > :07:12.churches, community groups, who are involved in fighting and
:07:12. > :07:14.campaigning against sectarianism, and work within the set -- the
:07:14. > :07:19.education system to impress on young people that we want
:07:19. > :07:22.communities to come together and underpinning that should be a
:07:22. > :07:27.national campaign spelling out a zero-tolerance approach to
:07:27. > :07:34.sectarianism. Police and prosecutors support the
:07:34. > :07:38.new Bell. The Government defends the proposal saying it is needed.
:07:38. > :07:41.At the moment they think the fear and alarm test is not being met so
:07:41. > :07:48.this will introduce something called a public order test which
:07:48. > :07:54.will make it easier for them to arrest fans, even if nobody's piece
:07:54. > :07:59.is technically being breached. The government says this is part of
:07:59. > :08:04.a wider strategy. The Bill will face its final hurdle at Holyrood
:08:04. > :08:08.this week. It is expected that SNP ministers will use their majority
:08:08. > :08:12.and to pass it with the proposal becoming law by the middle of
:08:12. > :08:18.January. We have Professor Tom Devine with
:08:18. > :08:23.us. And from the Scottish Police Federation, the chairman Les Gray.
:08:23. > :08:32.And from Oxford a legal blubber. He has come out of his sickbed to talk
:08:32. > :08:37.to us. We start with what we hope is a basic principle, if I took a,
:08:37. > :08:41.I know the consequences will be be. Do you know if that is what will
:08:41. > :08:45.happen with this legislation? And not a toff. We have little
:08:45. > :08:50.chance of the ordinary person on the street understanding court and
:08:50. > :08:56.is not rendered criminals. As a lawyer and I understand -- our
:08:56. > :09:00.struggle as well I am afraid. We're not really looked at the detail of
:09:00. > :09:04.the lot. Ideas like expressing hatred or things that are offensive
:09:04. > :09:09.to the reasonable person, those are quite open ended concepts and if
:09:09. > :09:15.you asked every member of parliament in Holyrood a series of
:09:16. > :09:21.scenarios and try to get them to agree a universal agreement on what
:09:21. > :09:27.was offences to reasonable persons, they might struggle to agree. Bob
:09:27. > :09:32.practical effect does this have been trying to apply the law?
:09:32. > :09:36.I think there are a number of aspects to this. From the
:09:36. > :09:41.government's figures they expect this legislation to add something
:09:41. > :09:45.like 150 new cases to the courts, so they envisage a limited
:09:45. > :09:49.enforcement. From a police perspective this Bill is great
:09:50. > :09:54.because it criminalise is all sorts of conduct in football, on the way
:09:54. > :09:58.to football, and in pubs where football is shown, and that gives
:09:58. > :10:03.them a lot of flexibility to identify those people they regard
:10:03. > :10:08.as problematic than simply to enforce it against them. It is much
:10:08. > :10:11.more problematic for the average fan who has certain songs they like
:10:11. > :10:19.to sing to work out if their singing is criminal or not and that
:10:19. > :10:22.does have implications for appeals. Before really believe this section,
:10:22. > :10:26.it would seem that you do not have to cause public disorder and you
:10:26. > :10:33.could still be charged even if you did not cause public disorder as we
:10:33. > :10:37.heard in the club, even if there was nobody there to insight.
:10:37. > :10:41.The definition in that section is that it would cause public disorder
:10:41. > :10:50.and if there are police there to prevent it or nobody there to be
:10:51. > :10:55.incited, that can be a case for the prosecution going forward. The bell
:10:55. > :10:58.envisage a -- the Bill envisages introducing fictional figures into
:10:58. > :11:03.the setting to say that if that person where there, it would be an
:11:03. > :11:06.offence. We will talk about the reasonable person test later
:11:06. > :11:11.because it does seem to be stretched here. Are you confident
:11:11. > :11:15.that two officers will be able to apply the sequel across Scotland?
:11:15. > :11:21.There will not understand yet because they have not had the
:11:21. > :11:27.training but I am confident that when the Bill is finalised and the
:11:27. > :11:35.training is coming out, I think they will. I find it amusing that
:11:35. > :11:39.the fans think somebody should tell them what they can and cannot sing.
:11:39. > :11:43.If we have got to the state that we have to tell reasonable minded
:11:43. > :11:49.people and adults what they can and cannot sing and if we have to tell
:11:49. > :11:52.them that something is or is not offences, then we are in trouble.
:11:52. > :11:58.If somebody tells me the current situation is working fine, these
:11:58. > :12:03.people are working -- and are living in a fantasy land. We have
:12:03. > :12:07.hate crimes, the televised game with Hibernian does his Rangers, I
:12:07. > :12:12.listened and was that game and I heard song after song which was
:12:12. > :12:17.completely and utterly offences. It was the same with the way certain
:12:17. > :12:23.Celtic fans and Hearts fans sing. People still turn around and say
:12:23. > :12:26.everything is fine. It is not. I don't know if ever one is
:12:26. > :12:30.suggesting the current legislation is very effective but that is
:12:30. > :12:33.different to saying this legislation will cure it. If you
:12:33. > :12:36.have a scenario with football fans in a pub watching a game on
:12:36. > :12:40.television and somebody says something offensive and another
:12:40. > :12:44.person post that on the internet, who do you arrest and what do you
:12:44. > :12:48.charge them with? He would need evidence and
:12:48. > :12:53.witnesses, as somebody posts something on the internet, that
:12:53. > :12:58.person will be charged. The person who makes the remark and
:12:58. > :13:04.the person who posts that remark? If there is sufficient evidence,
:13:05. > :13:09.absolutely. Tom Devine, when you look at the
:13:09. > :13:16.objectives here, the objective is presumably that sectarian and was
:13:16. > :13:21.as applied so something has to happen. Do you think the law will
:13:21. > :13:25.deliver what is needed? Absolutely not. The first thing is
:13:26. > :13:29.that the law will not change the values and attitudes of people very
:13:29. > :13:35.easily follow it certainly sends out signals and symbolism as if you
:13:35. > :13:39.like. I think this is an act as spectacular own goal by the current
:13:39. > :13:44.Scottish administration because of the fact there is a whole variety,
:13:44. > :13:48.not only in lot, but in the enforcement practice by the police,
:13:49. > :13:52.who are more robust than they were a year ago, but also by the
:13:52. > :13:57.football authorities. The word sectarianism or sectarian is not
:13:57. > :14:02.mentioned anywhere in this proposed legislation and the recent data
:14:02. > :14:07.that has been released from the Sheriff courts and procurator
:14:07. > :14:14.fiscal's evidence about sectarian aggravated breaches under section
:14:14. > :14:20.74 Act of the 2003 Bell, that shows that only about 14 to 15% of all
:14:20. > :14:25.Sir Teddy and related offences take place in or near a football ground.
:14:25. > :14:29.-- sectarian and the -- sectarianism related. I heard the
:14:29. > :14:34.singing yesterday as well on the radio. That is a question of not
:14:34. > :14:40.only how you change the law but of how you enforce the existing law.
:14:40. > :14:44.Something that could be effective would be banning these people from
:14:44. > :14:51.football grounds for effect -- extended period saw for life.
:14:51. > :14:56.Another development is that football authorities have set up
:14:56. > :15:01.specific penalties, some of some potentially very punitive, for
:15:01. > :15:05.football clubs where fans do not behave in a semi civilised way. I
:15:05. > :15:10.would have thought given communications developments, given
:15:10. > :15:14.the cameras that harder to rare now, given the fact that you know where
:15:14. > :15:20.people are sitting during many games, Viscount many of these
:15:20. > :15:25.offenders be extracted at the game, not necessarily at the game, but at
:15:25. > :15:30.a later point. What harm can it do? I am sure some
:15:30. > :15:35.people will be listening and will say, another raft of loss, what
:15:35. > :15:40.harm can they do? The hermit could do, because this
:15:40. > :15:45.is speculation, this is the future and we do not know, and the future
:15:45. > :15:49.is not my period, but in terms of that aspect I think there is a
:15:50. > :15:53.strong feeling among mainstream football fans, particularly those
:15:53. > :15:59.who support the big Glasgow clubs, that they are being punished simply
:15:59. > :16:05.for being people who come from a working-class background and are
:16:05. > :16:10.loyal to their teams, they perceive themselves to be targeted for
:16:10. > :16:17.having that particular identity. I am not saying that vision is
:16:17. > :16:27.correct. But it is a possible perception. And that could actually
:16:27. > :16:28.
:16:28. > :16:34.have political consequences at the If we go back to that you lot of
:16:34. > :16:37.this, the Government says it is a well-structured and interpreted
:16:37. > :16:44.that policy. What do you think the reasonable person will have to do
:16:44. > :16:49.you? It depends who's perspective we are taking here. If we take the
:16:49. > :16:55.law officers perspective, the No these tests. If you go for the
:16:55. > :17:00.average person, it will be problematic. We should remember how
:17:00. > :17:04.we came to this passing. One of the big arguments advanced by the
:17:04. > :17:08.Scottish Government is that we need this legislation because of the
:17:08. > :17:18.narrowing of the breach of the piece. One of the reasons it was
:17:18. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:25.narrowing it was because of fundamental civil liberties. I
:17:25. > :17:28.think in this kind of context we have to bear that in mind. The
:17:29. > :17:33.courts may be interpreted eating this legislation with a similar
:17:33. > :17:37.problem. With a terminology they must bring in line with European
:17:37. > :17:41.Convention. Thank you all for coming in.
:17:41. > :17:46.Tom, you are not being dismissed. You have to come back later for
:17:46. > :17:55.more insights. They were due so hard here and still don't give you
:17:55. > :17:58.a coffee. Cuts backs. During his trade mission to China,
:17:58. > :18:03.the First Minister has link research and development on
:18:03. > :18:08.renewables to human rights. In an unprecedented speech to the Central
:18:08. > :18:12.Party School, Alex Salmond told senior officials there was now an
:18:12. > :18:17.overwhelming case for climate justice and prizes -- emphasising
:18:17. > :18:21.the role of renewables in cutting carbon emissions. He said those who
:18:21. > :18:26.had done least to create a crisis when are suffering the most. We are
:18:26. > :18:33.joined by Scotland's human rights commissioner Alan Millar. How
:18:33. > :18:40.significant? -- how significant is it? It is very significant. Between
:18:40. > :18:44.the Scottish Government and Mary Robinson, who is one of the world's
:18:44. > :18:49.leading figures and promoting climate justice. The First
:18:49. > :18:52.Minister's speech, I think, from any Government of a development
:18:52. > :18:57.country in the world today is probably one of the most explicit
:18:57. > :19:02.statements of support for the concept of climate justice, which
:19:02. > :19:07.as you have just hinted that, is a recognition that climate change is
:19:07. > :19:12.currently affecting millions of human beings around the world, and
:19:12. > :19:14.dying lives and livelihoods and access to health and education. In
:19:14. > :19:22.recognition of that and the contribution that developed
:19:22. > :19:27.countries have made in causing that, countries like Scotland which are
:19:27. > :19:33.now developing all kinds of renewable energy expertise and can
:19:33. > :19:39.build a Green economy on that basis, I excepting they have to share that
:19:39. > :19:43.responsibility to protect the developing world. Often people who
:19:43. > :19:47.look at a human rights laws say they ate they are so nebulous. But
:19:47. > :19:51.this is one that where there is a specific political application.
:19:51. > :19:55.Also we were talking about welfare reform earlier on. Do you think
:19:55. > :19:59.that is an area where we might see more challenges to welfare reforms
:19:59. > :20:04.through the courts and Scotland and human rights laws similar to this
:20:04. > :20:14.sort of momentum that is building up on this in England? Yes. I think
:20:14. > :20:18.
:20:18. > :20:24.there are some point. -- some point. In terms of the Welfare Reform Bill,
:20:24. > :20:29.those who are most likely going to be most disproportionately impacted
:20:29. > :20:33.who have contributed the least to the situation we are in. Because of
:20:33. > :20:36.that unless the Welfare Reform Bill recognises that, there are likely
:20:37. > :20:40.to be caught challenges from those who feel they have been
:20:40. > :20:45.disproportionately harm by the effects of the Bill. The second
:20:45. > :20:50.point, to avoid that and mitigate the effects of the bell, the
:20:50. > :20:54.commission is working with the Government's, with politicians and
:20:54. > :20:58.public have authorities, two judges human rights impact assessments so
:20:58. > :21:02.when these difficult budgetary decisions are made, we do not wait
:21:02. > :21:05.for the court challenges. We try and be more proactive, more
:21:05. > :21:13.positive and ensure that these budgetary decisions are made in a
:21:13. > :21:21.way that respects and does not proportionate let it go -- those
:21:21. > :21:31.most less resilient to dealing with. You're are any significant position
:21:31. > :21:31.
:21:31. > :21:35.of the European group of National Human Rights institutions, this is
:21:35. > :21:38.the first European Union held posts in Britain, what is this fair
:21:38. > :21:44.impression of how Scotland is seen by human rights Practitioners in
:21:44. > :21:49.Europe as compared with the UK as a whole? It is clear or tan so that
:21:49. > :21:57.as to how the UK is can raise the first of all and then I will say
:21:57. > :22:00.some things about Scotland. I had a meeting a couple of weeks ago with
:22:00. > :22:06.the Human Rights Commissioner for the Council of Europe. He is coming
:22:06. > :22:12.to the UK next week and my understanding is that he will be
:22:12. > :22:16.urging the UK Government not to retreat from its obligations under
:22:16. > :22:21.the European Convention of Human Rights. Not to repeal the Human
:22:22. > :22:25.Rights Act and substitute for it a weaker UK Bill of Rights. Because
:22:25. > :22:29.not only would that undermined the rights of those in the United
:22:29. > :22:33.Kingdom, but we can the European system of protection. So those in
:22:33. > :22:37.Russia and Turkey would find their governments would be warmly
:22:37. > :22:47.disposed to the UK's current proposal as chairman of the Council
:22:47. > :22:48.
:22:48. > :22:54.of Europe to have an opt-out from what exists. You have been advising
:22:54. > :22:58.on a council of this. Do you think Scotland will say no? My senses
:22:58. > :23:04.that is what will happen. It is unlikely Scottish Parliament would
:23:04. > :23:11.agree to repeal of the Human Rights Act and a substitution of a weaker
:23:11. > :23:18.UK Bill of Human Rights. I think we can do better and we could develop
:23:18. > :23:22.an action plan of her own. Alan Millar, thank you very much for
:23:22. > :23:28.that. Joining me, the Economist and
:23:28. > :23:33.columnist for the Scotsman, George Kerevan. And back with us again,
:23:33. > :23:38.the historian and author Tom Devine. George, let's look at Europe. What
:23:38. > :23:43.you think? I think we spent the last two days in Europe looking at
:23:43. > :23:48.the long end of the telescope. On Friday, did they get the euro
:23:48. > :23:56.crisis salt? No they didn't. Nothing was decided on Friday. So I
:23:56. > :24:00.predict things will be quite over Christmas. Come the New Year,
:24:00. > :24:04.France's credit rating will be downgraded. We will have another
:24:04. > :24:10.crisis. The reason why the Germans were so annoyed with David Cameron
:24:10. > :24:14.is because he did not get the sound barrier. Germany wanted their
:24:14. > :24:17.crisis away. They needed the sure of that and Cameron said no to that
:24:17. > :24:22.because he was on a different trajectory and so they have fallen
:24:22. > :24:32.out. The real issue is the economy and the European economy and the
:24:32. > :24:32.
:24:32. > :24:38.euro. What you think this means for the independence debate with an
:24:38. > :24:43.Scotland if you can now say, look there is a pro-European culture in
:24:43. > :24:52.Sense and drive and Scotland and there is an England. I think
:24:52. > :24:56.England is moving in the opposite direction. This is not a criticism.
:24:56. > :25:01.English culture has always been against the European cultural as.
:25:01. > :25:05.We are part of Europe, we have to trade in Europe. We have to build
:25:05. > :25:11.relationships. I think their current crisis means MPs will have
:25:11. > :25:18.to think about what our European stances. It would be foolhardy of
:25:18. > :25:25.Scotland to move out of the EU. you maintain your own currency?
:25:25. > :25:29.euro is off the agenda. It is such damaged goods. The SNP position is
:25:29. > :25:39.it will retain sterling. It has been done before. When island came
:25:39. > :25:44.
:25:44. > :25:50.out of the UK, --... What will happen in Scotland if Scotland kept
:25:51. > :25:54.that Stirling wing, we would have Scottish pounds. Probably what
:25:55. > :25:59.would happen is that there would be a tendency for our currency will
:25:59. > :26:04.rise away from the link with the pound. The Scottish Government
:26:04. > :26:09.would pick up vast amounts of foreign currency. It is do-able.
:26:09. > :26:19.But you could maintain your own currency and not going to the EU is
:26:19. > :26:29.well? We have to remember the Norwegian is not the EU formally it
:26:29. > :26:32.
:26:32. > :26:36.has to pay into it. Tom, the big picture. There seems to be, from
:26:36. > :26:42.everyone we have spoken to today, this perception that Scotland is
:26:42. > :26:49.more pro-European and has always been more pro-European than England.
:26:49. > :26:53.Certainly the political picture seems to be if backbench Tories get
:26:53. > :27:03.their way this will cause more problems. What's relationship has
:27:03. > :27:04.
:27:04. > :27:09.Scotland had? It has been intimate from bed 12 century onwards. The
:27:09. > :27:19.great access of Scottish emigration bent towards Europe from the 12th
:27:19. > :27:22.
:27:22. > :27:28.and 13th century. Scotland has been impacted on by Europe at all levels.
:27:28. > :27:34.We talk about the Great Scottish Enlightenment. That is infused with
:27:34. > :27:38.the European intellectual concepts. The Scottish universities, the
:27:38. > :27:43.ancient universities are built upon European foundations. If you take
:27:43. > :27:48.the thing down to the present day, obviously Scotland then became very
:27:48. > :27:54.much immersed in his British Empire. So you could say, like England, it
:27:54. > :27:58.has been more a land to assist in the last 200 years. My own hope is
:27:58. > :28:04.that Scotland returns to his ancient heritage because that is
:28:05. > :28:09.what the future lies. Eliza been its European connections. Thank God
:28:09. > :28:14.for those who hope for that. There is not any evidence at all and
:28:14. > :28:19.modern Scotland of that brand of embittered euroscepticism which
:28:19. > :28:23.exists, not across the whole of England as George has implied, but
:28:23. > :28:26.surly in some of the Home Counties and more particularly in the
:28:26. > :28:30.Conservative Party. So any Scottish Government the wants to move
:28:30. > :28:37.forward in Europe, I think they will have a fairly Pharaoh of
:28:37. > :28:47.global wind unless -- favourable wind and less of the complexities.
:28:47. > :28:48.
:28:48. > :28:57.I never thought I would feel sorry for David Cameron. Briefly, Nick
:28:57. > :29:01.Clegg said today, if we do not have influence in Europe. Nick Clegg
:29:01. > :29:06.says two things were never you speak to him. We are part of Europe
:29:06. > :29:12.we have to be part of Europe. It is how you build bridges to it. Thank
:29:12. > :29:17.you all very much indeed. We are out of time now. I am glad I
:29:17. > :29:21.did not have to interrupt Professor Tom Devine. That is all from us
:29:21. > :29:23.this week. We will be back at the same time next week when we will
:29:23. > :29:28.have the first interview with the new Scottish Labour leader and a