:00:32. > :00:35.The price of power. How can the Lib Dems woo back voters in the South
:00:35. > :00:38.East and reestablish their identity while they are in Government?
:00:38. > :00:48.And the price of a high salary. The Tories want to abolish the 50 pence
:00:48. > :00:48.
:00:48. > :36:18.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2129 seconds
:36:18. > :36:25.tax rate. Their Coalition partners Welcome to the Politics Show in the
:36:25. > :36:28.South East. In the next 20 minutes. Paying the price of power, how can
:36:28. > :36:33.the Lib-Dems bring back voters in the South East and re-establish
:36:33. > :36:40.their identity while they are in government. The Tories want to
:36:40. > :36:45.abolish the top rate of cash -- tax, their partners are fighting for it
:36:45. > :36:51.to stay. Could two of our region's MPs lose their jobs if the proposed
:36:51. > :36:56.boundary shake-up goes ahead? The Lib-Dem leadership has a task at
:36:56. > :37:01.conference. It needs to persuade the party ministers are influencing
:37:01. > :37:08.government policy and up holding party principles. The Lib Dems lost
:37:08. > :37:16.half their council seats in the South East in the May elections. We
:37:16. > :37:21.have this report. In the local elections, the Lib
:37:21. > :37:26.Dems did badly, especially in the South East, where they lost half
:37:26. > :37:34.their seats. After the election, they made resolutions for their
:37:34. > :37:38.revival. Are they are on track? Nick Clegg had set out his plans.
:37:38. > :37:44.There are lessons to be learned. The lesson I have learned,
:37:44. > :37:49.listening to people, is people want a louder Liberal Democrat voice in
:37:49. > :37:56.government. They want a louder Liberal Democrat voice and that is
:37:56. > :38:01.what we will deliver. Why his -- while his words were intended to
:38:01. > :38:07.appease the grass roots, it did not address the problem of MPs like
:38:07. > :38:13.Norman Baker. He made interesting comments about the consequences of
:38:13. > :38:20.increased rail fares. That is an issue for his constituents. It is a
:38:20. > :38:25.classic example of how the Coalition traps one. Nick leg
:38:25. > :38:29.cannot be seen to be opposing the Coalition agreement. The deputy
:38:29. > :38:34.prime minister said when the Lib- Dems have success in the Coalition,
:38:34. > :38:39.it needs to be communicated. Where we have done things, protecting
:38:39. > :38:45.people on low pay, taking 900,000 people on low pay out of paying
:38:45. > :38:50.income tax, we need to say loudly. To the Lib-Dems grass roots think
:38:50. > :38:56.this has happened? Perhaps not as much as possible. It is always
:38:56. > :39:01.difficult to get coverage. What people like most of all our
:39:01. > :39:07.disagreements. We have never had the resources of the other main
:39:07. > :39:10.parties to have an effective media unit that deals with stories.
:39:10. > :39:15.local Lib Dems said it should be easy to communicate and message
:39:15. > :39:20.that affects so many South East workers. There are many people in
:39:20. > :39:24.the region on low wages. The Lib Dems brought the idea of lifting
:39:24. > :39:29.the income tax threshold and taking thousands out of paying income tax.
:39:29. > :39:33.That is brilliant. Shout from the rooftops. I do not get the
:39:33. > :39:37.impression that people have this knowledge. The party has to get the
:39:37. > :39:41.message out that the situation and the government would be worse if it
:39:41. > :39:49.were not for the involvement of the Lib-Dems. Otherwise the damage will
:39:49. > :39:55.be severe. Another commitment... People want to see us retain an
:39:55. > :40:01.identity. We have to prove we have not. That is what will happen.
:40:01. > :40:06.in Lewes this week, people were not clear about the Lib Dem identity.
:40:06. > :40:12.Can we ask what you think the Liberal Democrats stand for? I do
:40:13. > :40:20.not really know. Does anybody? not sure. I am not sure many people
:40:20. > :40:25.are. Pretty spineless. Just to get a bit of fame and they are paying
:40:25. > :40:30.the price. Now they are in the Coalition, it is difficult to know
:40:30. > :40:36.where you stand. I would not vote for them any more. It's scenes they
:40:36. > :40:41.have not achieved what they hoped. It is not surprising, given that
:40:41. > :40:44.they are in Coalition. Is it possible for them to have a decent
:40:44. > :40:51.influence while retaining their identity and appealing to
:40:51. > :40:56.grassroots supporters? Is it one or the other? In the last 30 years
:40:57. > :41:05.they have been good at local level and campaigning on local issues.
:41:05. > :41:09.Often they did that by having distinctive local Policies. There
:41:09. > :41:19.is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It becomes impossible when
:41:19. > :41:24.you are in a Coalition agreement. Local activists are disillusioned.
:41:24. > :41:29.They are losing a distinct ability to do what they have done best,
:41:29. > :41:34.which is to campaign on local issues. The Liberal Democrat's
:41:34. > :41:38.continued to explore new territory. They are in government and want to
:41:38. > :41:43.do well. There are two types of success. To be successful in terms
:41:43. > :41:48.of power they need to be closer to the Conservatives in Coalition. To
:41:48. > :41:54.be successful at grassroots level, they need to separate themselves
:41:54. > :41:59.and establish their own identity. This week's conference will look at
:41:59. > :42:04.what success they prefer. We can give a louder voice to the
:42:04. > :42:10.transport minister and Liberal Democrat MP for Lewes. Norman Baker,
:42:10. > :42:18.we heard you described as intelligent, articulate and brave.
:42:18. > :42:23.Is it how you see yourself? I am happy to be in government. Most of
:42:23. > :42:29.our manifesto is being enacted in the Coalition. Is it a one-way
:42:29. > :42:36.street? It is not. There are compromises that are necessary from
:42:36. > :42:40.both. That is the case went to parties come together. If you are
:42:40. > :42:46.inside government, you cannot be as frank as you would like to be. But
:42:46. > :42:54.you have more access to ministers and can get more done for your
:42:54. > :42:59.constituents. I am happy. What are your successes? You in the
:42:59. > :43:05.Department of Transport? We have the biggest railway investment
:43:05. > :43:10.programme since the Victorian era. We have 560 million in a fund that
:43:10. > :43:18.I am administering for a local sustainable transport fund. That
:43:18. > :43:25.will be on cycling, walking, local transport, and we have counter to
:43:25. > :43:29.the third runway at Heathrow. We are proceeding with high-speed rail.
:43:29. > :43:38.What about rail fares? Your boss said the train service is a rich
:43:38. > :43:43.man's toy. I find it regrettable that rail fares are going up. As
:43:43. > :43:50.soon as the public finances allowed, we should try to bring them down.
:43:50. > :43:57.What we have done is look at the railway structure. It is not
:43:57. > :44:03.efficient. There is money to be secured. When we do that, the money
:44:03. > :44:08.should be handed back to passengers. One think you said you are opposed
:44:08. > :44:18.to is the rise to the motorway speed limit, which your boss wants.
:44:18. > :44:19.
:44:19. > :44:26.We stop at? We have a different emphasis on this. The Secretary of
:44:26. > :44:31.State is clear there needs to be consequences taken into account.
:44:32. > :44:37.Were you stop it? I will wait to see what the evaluation says. I am
:44:37. > :44:43.keen that we do not make road safety worse and in -- increase
:44:43. > :44:48.carbon. This is the complaint, that you could be doing more.
:44:48. > :44:53.Constituents are feeling frustrated by what you have not achieved.
:44:54. > :44:58.is not fair. It is not as easy in government to be as vocal as in
:44:58. > :45:02.opposition. But much of the manifesto is being delivered.
:45:02. > :45:11.People are being taken out of taxation, a big Liberal Democrat
:45:11. > :45:17.promise. We have 900 million allocated in the Treasury to tackle
:45:17. > :45:22.tax avoidance. No number of the people in your constituency, -- and
:45:22. > :45:29.none of the people are getting that message. There is a problem. I do
:45:29. > :45:39.not think they have forgotten the message. Had we had 149 more votes
:45:39. > :45:40.
:45:40. > :45:46.at the local elections we would have kept our council seats. I have
:45:46. > :45:51.been around the circuit for over 20 years in politics. I have lost
:45:51. > :45:58.count of the interviews I have done when I am asked if the Liberal
:45:58. > :46:04.Democrats are finished. Whether it is Charles Kennedy leaving,
:46:04. > :46:11.whatever the reason, we never finished. We always bounced back.
:46:11. > :46:16.It is something people vote for. You have the conference ahead. What
:46:16. > :46:22.will you do to attract voters in Birmingham? We have a good agenda.
:46:22. > :46:27.What I am proud of by a -- of my party is that we make decisions and
:46:27. > :46:35.we have to take the instructions back can deal with them. Last year,
:46:35. > :46:42.the NHS, we took instructions back and the NHS Bill has been altered
:46:42. > :46:48.to take account of those views. Shirley Williams would like you to
:46:48. > :46:58.go further. Of course. We have negotiated a good outcome that will
:46:58. > :46:59.
:46:59. > :47:04.enable us to proceed with cost- saving initiatives. We will give
:47:04. > :47:09.more power to local GPs. Is everybody happy with everything in
:47:09. > :47:14.the equation? Probably not. But there will be opportunities when
:47:14. > :47:19.people can put their views in House of Lords. You also had the
:47:19. > :47:29.announcement that your seat could be abolished. We've fight that? It
:47:29. > :47:30.
:47:30. > :47:35.is an the days. -- it is early days. I have not had a chance to discuss
:47:35. > :47:41.it with my constituency party. We should take things slowly and
:47:41. > :47:51.calmly and not jump to conclusions. It will be a problem at Uckfield,
:47:51. > :47:52.
:47:52. > :48:00.which is a Tory stronghold. bottom end... Uckfield is a county
:48:00. > :48:07.council seat for the Liberal Democrats. You're coming back to
:48:07. > :48:12.saying we are on our way out. not say that! I wish I had �10 for
:48:12. > :48:19.every time I hear that. We cannot give you that out of the licence
:48:19. > :48:23.fee! We will return to Norman Baker. One issue testing the Coalition is
:48:24. > :48:31.the 50p tax rate, which affects a small proportion of the population
:48:31. > :48:38.and in over �150,000. Almost a quarter of the 67,000 people leap -
:48:38. > :48:42.- it in the South East. This week, a study said that the tax rate
:48:42. > :48:47.costs the government, rather than raising money. This has led to
:48:47. > :48:54.calls for the abolition of the tax rate. The Liberal Democrats want to
:48:54. > :49:01.keep it. Chris Huhne said getting rid of the tax will help the
:49:01. > :49:06.Conservatives' friends in the city. Mr Johnson. It would look unfair
:49:06. > :49:12.for the poorer people if they are hit by your austerity programme and
:49:12. > :49:18.then this tax rate is abolished. have helped out people on lower
:49:18. > :49:23.incomes, ensuring that we are working towards a new rate band of
:49:23. > :49:29.�10,000 for the lowest earners. I do not subscribe to the view that
:49:29. > :49:34.we should have rates of taxation that are necessary. If we are not
:49:34. > :49:41.getting revenue from this tax rate, it should not be there. It might
:49:41. > :49:47.not be bringing in money. But it is symbolic. If George Osborne got rid
:49:47. > :49:53.of it, it will look like he is helping his friends in the city.
:49:53. > :49:58.the tax band does not bring in any revenue, we should be getting rid
:49:58. > :50:05.of it. We do not make the poor richer by making the rich poorer.
:50:05. > :50:09.It is not a -- an incentive for people to stay in the country.
:50:09. > :50:15.Successful people will not be inclined to come to this country if
:50:15. > :50:20.we had tax rates that are higher. we will cross to Norman Baker. If
:50:20. > :50:27.it does not make any money, this rate is surely silly? Were eight do
:50:27. > :50:33.not know if it loses money. This comes from a particular think tank.
:50:33. > :50:38.The estimate I sought was that it raises 7.7 billion. We should see
:50:38. > :50:44.what the consequences of this are. What I hope we agree with in the
:50:44. > :50:51.Coalition is that we want a fair system that helps those at the
:50:51. > :50:57.bottom end. We want a system that means those who can afford to pay
:50:57. > :51:03.more should pay more. Does it have to be this form of tax? Would you
:51:03. > :51:09.be happy with another sort of tax increase? The principle is a
:51:09. > :51:16.progressive tax. Income tax is a well understood process. It is more
:51:16. > :51:22.difficult to avoid than other taxes. I am inclined towards income tax. I
:51:22. > :51:27.am open-minded. People on very high incomes, they ought to pay their
:51:27. > :51:32.fair share, particularly at a time of economic difficulties. If this
:51:32. > :51:37.rate is not working, we should look at something else that is more
:51:37. > :51:40.difficult to avoid, such as the mansion tax, so we can catch the
:51:40. > :51:46.Russians over here with vast amounts of money and not paying any
:51:46. > :51:53.tax. The wealth gap is increasing. We have to do something about that,
:51:53. > :52:00.surely? If the 50p tax rate is not bring in anything in to the
:52:00. > :52:05.Treasury, we should get rid of it because it is pointless. How else
:52:05. > :52:12.would you narrow the gap? I would carry on with what we are
:52:12. > :52:18.endeavouring to do. Helping those on the lowest of incomes to come
:52:18. > :52:24.out of taxation. That is the Coalition's priority. That is what
:52:24. > :52:29.we will do before any other tax cuts. It does not make sense to put
:52:30. > :52:34.in a rate band that does not bring in revenue. We should find out the
:52:34. > :52:38.situation as to whether it is bringing money in. The Chancellor
:52:38. > :52:44.said he did not want to change his spending plans because of the
:52:44. > :52:48.worsening situation in Europe. Chancellor wants to see what income
:52:48. > :52:55.comes in from this rate. If it is insufficient, I hope we get rid of
:52:55. > :53:04.it. It sounds as if you are open to that, Norman Baker, if it does not
:53:04. > :53:09.bring in enough money? This is from a think tank. They are independent.
:53:09. > :53:15.They tend to come from the right or left. This one is from the right.
:53:15. > :53:21.If it is proven it loses money, we would be daft to keep it. I would
:53:21. > :53:28.be surprised. Is this something your party has to do to make a
:53:28. > :53:36.difference? We do not want a gesture politics. What we agree on
:53:36. > :53:41.is that the most important thing is to get the people at the bottom and
:53:41. > :53:48.out of taxation. And to make sure we protect those who are vulnerable
:53:48. > :53:53.and in work trying to make a living. The principle of progressive
:53:53. > :54:00.taxation is important. Those who earn the most should pay the most.
:54:00. > :54:03.Thank you both. As we heard, Norman Baker is one MP
:54:03. > :54:08.feeling uncomfortable in his seat after the Boundary Commission
:54:08. > :54:13.announced plans to change the political landscape. Another could
:54:13. > :54:19.be the MP for Faversham and Mid Kent. The commission is
:54:19. > :54:24.recommending fewer constituencies, which would lead to fewer MPs. How
:54:24. > :54:28.could this changed the map in the South East? As you said, the
:54:28. > :54:38.highest-profile casualty, two ministers actress, but Hugh
:54:38. > :54:40.
:54:40. > :54:46.Robertson, the Olympics minister, his seat would go. That is because
:54:46. > :54:50.the electorate would be divided between Canterbury and another. I
:54:50. > :54:55.spoke to him and he said he is disappointed because it is the
:54:55. > :54:59.place where he was born and he brought his family up there. He
:54:59. > :55:06.said on a political level, he agrees with the need to reduce the
:55:06. > :55:12.number of seats to 600 from 650. Norman Baker would not be drawn,
:55:12. > :55:17.but half of his constituency will be going into Brighton. He is
:55:17. > :55:21.looking for vulnerable because of that. If you look at the way they
:55:21. > :55:25.want to draw it, they propose that because the constituencies are
:55:25. > :55:31.small, Lewes and the neighbouring constituency, would come together
:55:32. > :55:37.as Lewes and Brighton East. Lewes is held by a Conservative. If they
:55:37. > :55:41.take away part of it, it might be more difficult for a Liberal
:55:41. > :55:46.Democrat MP to hang on to it. Particularly somebody who has voted
:55:46. > :55:54.for decisions such as tuition fees. These changes will not definitely
:55:54. > :56:01.happen. What impact could it have on politics? We will not know the
:56:01. > :56:06.actual impact after the 2013 election. Neighbours say it will be