:00:51. > :01:01.Coming up here in the South: is the rising cost of policing pop
:01:01. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :42:53.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2511 seconds
:42:53. > :42:59.Hello and welcome to the part of the show especially for us here in
:42:59. > :43:03.the South. My name's Peter Henley. Today we've got high art and pop
:43:03. > :43:05.art. In the weekend of Glastonbury we're looking at the cost of
:43:05. > :43:08.policing pop festivals. And high art? There are hundreds of
:43:08. > :43:11.thousands of paintings owned by public bodies like councils, the
:43:11. > :43:14.police and fire services, and most of them are never put on display.
:43:14. > :43:18.Should we be bringing them out of the storerooms, or maybe even
:43:18. > :43:23.selling them to get some money in. It's an idea which we'll debate
:43:23. > :43:26.shortly. But first:
:43:26. > :43:30.This week sees the end of the public consultation into the future
:43:30. > :43:33.of children's heart surgery units. The proposals are for fewer bigger
:43:33. > :43:36.units, which could mean units like the one in Southampton closing down.
:43:36. > :43:40.This week campaigners took a petition to Downing Street, and MPs
:43:40. > :43:45.debated the issue on Thursday. But what difference will all this
:43:45. > :43:55.campaigning make? With me in the studio, Southampton Labour MP John
:43:55. > :43:55.
:43:55. > :44:01.Denham and campaigner Sam Prior who went up to Downing Street.
:44:01. > :44:04.Sam, you spent a lot of time and effort collecting petitions. There
:44:04. > :44:12.was the debate in the House and do you feel it was all worthwhile and
:44:12. > :44:15.you are being listened to? I think so. We had to raise the profile of
:44:15. > :44:20.the review to make sure that everybody understood what the
:44:21. > :44:25.proposals were. Fundamentally, the document that people are responding
:44:25. > :44:30.to is flawed and the data is inaccurate. Drawing up a petition
:44:30. > :44:34.is about the force of public opinion but should the whole thing
:44:34. > :44:38.stop now and they should start again? I do not agree that it
:44:38. > :44:43.should stop. It has been a decade since they have been trying to put
:44:43. > :44:47.through changes to cardiac surgery for children but there are a lot of
:44:47. > :44:52.issues in the way the process is being run at the moment in that it
:44:52. > :44:57.is just about children and it has not taken into consideration the
:44:57. > :45:02.continuation into care for adults. They all have the same surgeon. You
:45:02. > :45:05.still need the same surgeon as you going to the adult service because
:45:06. > :45:10.it is still the same kind of surgery that is being performed.
:45:10. > :45:15.Issues like that have not been addressed. Southampton is only one
:45:15. > :45:20.option and we need to make sure that it is a surgical centre for
:45:20. > :45:24.the future. John Denham, you were also helping with the campaign.
:45:25. > :45:30.There is a picture of you here with other MPs from our region on the
:45:30. > :45:35.steps of Number Ten. For there are problems with the process and that
:45:35. > :45:38.is something BNP should be pulling out. There are problems with the
:45:38. > :45:42.process and you have to tell ministers to have a close look at
:45:42. > :45:47.what is being done in their name. You have to be certain you are
:45:47. > :45:51.confident about it. To me as a parent, I do not care where it is
:45:52. > :45:56.as long as it is the best that you can get. Southampton is one of the
:45:56. > :46:02.best centres in the country and is only included as one of the four
:46:02. > :46:07.options. That does not seem right. If you take the whole work out of
:46:07. > :46:10.Southampton, then you do not have enough beds for the rest of the
:46:10. > :46:15.children's intensive care work that we do at the moment so you may use
:46:15. > :46:17.that as well. These issues have not yet been brought out of the
:46:17. > :46:22.consultation document. Now Andrew Lansley and the other ministers
:46:22. > :46:27.know they cannot just sign this off as a technical exercises and they
:46:27. > :46:30.have to be confident that it works. And listen to public opinion! You
:46:30. > :46:35.have groups of MPs and parents making passionate arguments for
:46:35. > :46:43.their own unit to have continued. That is not rational, is it? There
:46:43. > :46:46.is a bit of that but they accepted the basic idea that if there are
:46:46. > :46:50.fewer larger centres then more children would live and fewer
:46:50. > :46:55.children would die. No one is questioning that process but if
:46:55. > :47:00.there had been no protest and No campaigns, I think ministers might
:47:00. > :47:04.not have engage themselves in it and signed it over to the experts.
:47:04. > :47:08.Now we know what ever comes out will be unpopular somewhere but I
:47:08. > :47:12.think Sam and her campaign and the people who have signed it and
:47:12. > :47:20.others in other parts of the country have said to ministers that
:47:20. > :47:23.they have to be sure that they have got it right. 250,000 people signed
:47:23. > :47:28.here and 500,000 people signed in Leeds, did they have more right to
:47:28. > :47:32.keep their heart unit? They came 10th in the review but they do have
:47:32. > :47:36.more people signing petitions and they paid people to go out and
:47:37. > :47:41.collect names on that petitions. There was an advert for those
:47:41. > :47:45.petitions so at the end of the day... You did not do that? No, it
:47:45. > :47:49.has all been done through the hard work by our families and our
:47:49. > :47:56.friends and we have organised events at various big venues and it
:47:56. > :47:58.is the general public that, when you tell them that it is the second
:47:58. > :48:05.biggest cardiac unit for children the country, then it makes sense to
:48:05. > :48:09.keep it. Should this kind of thing be done by a group of experts who
:48:09. > :48:13.were looking for safe and sustainable Hart's services?
:48:13. > :48:19.word in the expert group, what has been published, does not capture
:48:19. > :48:24.many of the really important knock on issues. If you talk to the
:48:24. > :48:29.doctors in Southampton, as I have been doing, there are all sorts of
:48:29. > :48:33.issues that have not been covered. It would be awful if ministers made
:48:33. > :48:38.a decision based on the number of petition signatures but if they had
:48:38. > :48:42.not been this general campaigning done well on a volunteer resources
:48:42. > :48:52.here in Southampton, I think a lot of the issues that have now come
:48:52. > :48:53.
:48:53. > :48:58.out -- such as that the Isle of Wight has been completely left out.
:48:58. > :49:02.What happens is we all got together and people looked at their own bit
:49:02. > :49:06.of it and wondered if they had been taken into account. They had done
:49:06. > :49:14.so they have now got to admit that a whole chunk of patients had not
:49:14. > :49:18.been taken into account. All of this campaigning, you do not take a
:49:18. > :49:22.decision on the basis of who shouts loudest but it will mean that
:49:22. > :49:26.ministers understand that there is a lot of concern about the process
:49:26. > :49:29.and they have got to be absolutely confident that they have got it
:49:29. > :49:34.right. If they do and they decide that what matters is how good the
:49:34. > :49:40.services, then Southampton should come through OK. Sorry, that is all
:49:40. > :49:43.of our time. Thank you very much. It's that time of year when music
:49:43. > :49:45.festivals are popping up in muddy fields all over the place.
:49:45. > :49:48.Glastonbury's on this weekend of course. But for people trying to
:49:48. > :49:51.get to the JLS concert just outside Winchester last weekend, the
:49:51. > :49:53.experience became a bit of a nightmare. A nightmare which raised
:49:53. > :50:01.questions about just how these big public events get organised.
:50:01. > :50:06.Earlier in the week I caught up with local MP Steve Brine.
:50:06. > :50:11.concert in Winchester on Friday was an absolute fiasco. It was a
:50:11. > :50:17.dangerous farce. I open a fete at lunch time and people were asking
:50:17. > :50:23.me if I had heard what had happened. I mentioned, Twitter and asked for
:50:23. > :50:27.people to tell me their stories. I have got reports of young girls
:50:27. > :50:32.jumping over the central reservation and running down the
:50:32. > :50:36.motorway in pouring rain and small children pushing cars out of March
:50:36. > :50:43.at one A M. It was a potentially dangerous farce. It is not good
:50:43. > :50:47.enough. The organisers knew how much they had sold and they knew
:50:48. > :50:50.where the car park spaces were and it cannot be a surprise that people
:50:50. > :50:54.turned up. It is their responsibility to ensure that
:50:54. > :50:57.people were dealt with efficiently and safely and they did not do that.
:50:57. > :51:02.People are saying they want their money back and they are absolutely
:51:02. > :51:07.right. Have the responsibility -- have the authorities got a
:51:07. > :51:11.responsibility in this? I think absolutely everybody has a portion
:51:11. > :51:17.of the blame here. When it comes to signing of the plan, and there was
:51:17. > :51:20.a plan. I spoke to the police the morning of the Festival about
:51:21. > :51:25.something else and this came up and they had a plan and they were
:51:25. > :51:29.relatively happy with it but we need to find out whether the plan
:51:29. > :51:34.was implemented or whether the plan was not good enough in the first
:51:34. > :51:37.place. We need to get around the table and have a debrief as soon as
:51:37. > :51:42.possible. We need to know where things have gone wrong and find out
:51:42. > :51:46.whether blame lines so that people can get their money back. Is there
:51:46. > :51:50.an issue here because it costs a lot for the organisers to have the
:51:50. > :51:53.security and get the approval probably done and maybe it is not
:51:53. > :51:58.being done properly. authorities want consistency. The
:51:58. > :52:03.Isle of Wight is a good example. It is an established festival. The
:52:03. > :52:06.organisers know the police and the council and authorities. Within
:52:06. > :52:13.weeks of the festival happening each year, they are talking about
:52:13. > :52:17.the next year. Michael Eavis at Glastonbury has made an art form of
:52:17. > :52:21.it. Organisers want this consistency. They are concerned
:52:21. > :52:24.that organisers of festivals come and go and they cannot build a
:52:24. > :52:28.relationship. Relationships are built on trust when it comes to
:52:28. > :52:32.these things and that is one of the things that is going wrong at the
:52:32. > :52:36.moment. My advice to landowners would be to build long-term
:52:36. > :52:41.relationships with organisers and that will deal with a lot of the
:52:41. > :52:44.problems that is coming up. That was the JLS concert.
:52:44. > :52:47.The bigger the event, the bigger the bill for organising it. And as
:52:47. > :52:56.Alex Forsyth reports, the more the Old Bill charges for policing it.
:52:56. > :53:04.This report contains some strobe lighting.
:53:04. > :53:07.It has become as Britain's and Woodstock. In 1970 more than
:53:07. > :53:13.500,000 music-lovers descended on the Isle of Wight to see the
:53:13. > :53:19.world's biggest band. The best of all got out of control. It is home
:53:19. > :53:22.for who knows how many hippies, beatniks and drop out. The police
:53:22. > :53:28.are noticeable by their absence. Their theory is that it would be
:53:28. > :53:31.impossible to control over 100,000 youngsters so even the presence of
:53:31. > :53:39.the peaks in amongst this mass of humanity might do more harm than
:53:39. > :53:44.good. When the Isle of Wight festival was revived it firmly
:53:44. > :53:50.fixed its place on the festival calendar. This year thousands came
:53:50. > :53:54.to Newport for three days of bands, blues and wellies. The organiser
:53:54. > :53:58.does not manned -- the organiser does not mind paying the price to
:53:58. > :54:02.keep the event secured. We take into account the fact that we have
:54:02. > :54:06.to pay for the police force as part of the ticket price because we
:54:06. > :54:09.believe the audience needs to be looked after and protected and we
:54:09. > :54:14.have to provide extra protection for that. It costs hundreds of
:54:14. > :54:17.thousands of pounds but it is worth having because if, pray God, you
:54:17. > :54:25.had a big problem, you want people there to be capable of dealing with
:54:25. > :54:30.it. I think the police force are a necessary evil, if you see what I
:54:30. > :54:33.mean. I think you need them to run an event properly. It is not the
:54:33. > :54:38.1970s where who cares and what happens happens and people can
:54:38. > :54:44.smash down the walls. An audience needs to be protected from
:54:44. > :54:49.themselves. Although big festivals may be all -- and may be able to
:54:49. > :54:53.afford the bill, the smaller events they can be a struggle. This
:54:54. > :54:59.marketplace was due to be a venue for the first free rock concert in
:54:59. > :55:04.Ringwood. It looked like policing the event would be expensive.
:55:04. > :55:08.if it was just 10,000, it was way over what we could sensibly afford.
:55:09. > :55:14.It could have entered into 20,000 or even more, depending on what
:55:14. > :55:18.happened in the evening. In the end, organisers cancelled. It is a great
:55:18. > :55:22.shame. The bans were really enthusiastic and we were doing
:55:22. > :55:26.auditions and the local people and businesses were behind the event.
:55:26. > :55:30.It was a way to get Ringwood going and we were all disappointed that
:55:30. > :55:34.they could not do that. The town council wanted to put on the
:55:34. > :55:38.concert as well and we were doing everything we could possibly do. We
:55:38. > :55:48.were trying to work with the police but eventually the money was just
:55:48. > :55:49.
:55:50. > :55:56.far too much for us. Nastier a dance festival was due to be held
:55:56. > :56:00.here in Winchester. Organisers had to cancel it and they say a hefty
:56:00. > :56:05.police bill was part of the reason. The police to waive fees for
:56:05. > :56:09.community or charity events but they say it is only fair that they
:56:09. > :56:13.recoup the full costs of any commercial concert or festival.
:56:13. > :56:18.is critical we have the right level of police resources and the right
:56:18. > :56:22.skills. They go hand in hand with the right security and safety plan
:56:22. > :56:27.at the events. Whether it is a large event like the Isle of Wight
:56:27. > :56:31.festival or a small event like the dance festival, it is crucial that
:56:31. > :56:37.any event that attracts large numbers of people, public safety
:56:37. > :56:46.must come first. We cannot have the tax payers of the Isle of Wight
:56:46. > :56:49.subsidising commercial and profit- making ventures. The Summer of Love
:56:49. > :56:56.has long since passed but festivals are still going strong and they
:56:56. > :57:02.still need policing. The question is who should fit the bill? --
:57:02. > :57:04.fought the bill? Now, it's been estimated that there
:57:04. > :57:07.are around 200,000 paintings in public collections all over the
:57:07. > :57:13.country. It might be local authorities, fire services, the
:57:13. > :57:16.police, you name it. But although they're all owned by us, the public,
:57:16. > :57:19.about 80% of them never actually get seen by us, the public. In a
:57:19. > :57:22.documentary later tonight on BBC One, Joe Crowley has been
:57:22. > :57:32.unearthing some of those hidden treasures, like one he found in the
:57:32. > :57:32.
:57:32. > :57:36.council offices in Wareham. It just sits here in a stairwell
:57:36. > :57:41.and half the time when people come and go they probably do not notice
:57:41. > :57:45.it. When I came in, guy asked me what I was here for and I said the
:57:45. > :57:49.painting and he said, what painting? It makes you wonder how
:57:49. > :57:53.many paintings like this are hidden in land and buildings around the
:57:53. > :58:00.country. He you cannot get in and it is behind locked doors and
:58:00. > :58:10.nobody quite knows how what is here and where it came from and at some
:58:10. > :58:12.
:58:12. > :58:16.point it was donated. Ross, putting things on public
:58:16. > :58:21.display is not as straightforward as people think because it is
:58:21. > :58:25.valuable and you have to rotate it. Yes, we like to refresh our
:58:25. > :58:28.displays so that people do not come in and think they have seen it all
:58:28. > :58:33.before and there is nothing new. We like to change things around and
:58:33. > :58:38.get as many of our paintings out as we can. Do you think more could be
:58:38. > :58:43.done? Always. We always want more buildings and bigger galleries to
:58:43. > :58:47.show more and more staff to make it available. I wonder whether that is
:58:47. > :58:51.happening at the moment, I suspect not. It is difficult times. It is,
:58:51. > :58:55.we are facing budget restrictions and that will have an impact on
:58:55. > :59:00.staff. Peter, you have a campaign in Hampshire to get more stuff out.
:59:00. > :59:04.They were buying collections just to decorate the offices. Yes,
:59:04. > :59:07.Hampshire requires a substantial number of works of art but they are
:59:07. > :59:11.not seen by the public who pay for them. I think the principle is
:59:11. > :59:17.simple, when it is public art, owned by the public and paid for by
:59:17. > :59:22.the public, they and a right to see them. They were bought in the 1980s
:59:22. > :59:26.just took decorate offices, they could have got some wallpaper!
:59:26. > :59:29.is completely wrong. I can wander round the Hampshire County Council
:59:29. > :59:34.headquarters and find a lot of art hidden away where the public never
:59:34. > :59:40.sees it. Hardly anyone in the offices sees it. That is wrong. The
:59:40. > :59:43.attitude is wrong -- the attitude is changing and Hampshire are
:59:43. > :59:48.saying that they will display more of the art but they have not said
:59:48. > :59:52.where and when. In my view, the public should have far greater
:59:52. > :59:57.access. It is a simple principle, the public omit and the public
:59:57. > :00:01.should see it. Money is tight, wind will sell some of it? That is an
:00:01. > :00:04.argument but if you sold it... Would you do that was mad know, if
:00:04. > :00:10.you sold it then it would probably go into private collection of the
:00:10. > :00:19.public would never see it. I would rather these works of art actually
:00:19. > :00:22.seen and the public can enjoy them. There are some acclaimed art of
:00:22. > :00:28.working Gosport by Martin Snape and you can view those works of art
:00:28. > :00:33.online but you can hardly ever see them in the area and they used to
:00:33. > :00:37.give away works of art to retiring town clerks. Thankfully, that
:00:37. > :00:39.attitude has changed but there are three -- there are a few one
:00:39. > :00:43.display at the town hall but they are mostly in areas where the
:00:43. > :00:48.public does not have access. I am sure the public would love to see
:00:48. > :00:52.them. Why is it not happening? think in some cases it is very
:00:52. > :00:56.difficult to get things out and have the space to display them. We
:00:56. > :01:01.have got an exhibition on at the moment which is a longer term
:01:01. > :01:05.exhibition, devoted to works illustrated in the Public Catalogue
:01:05. > :01:10.Foundation catalogue. It is clearly titled, discover the paintings you
:01:10. > :01:15.own. Portsmouth is committed to ensuring that art remains in the
:01:16. > :01:20.public domain, available to the people of the city. Portsmouth have
:01:20. > :01:23.never bought the works of art for offices, they have been bought for
:01:23. > :01:28.the museum's collection. We believe that people do want to see things
:01:28. > :01:31.and we will let them if they see an appointment to see the things in
:01:31. > :01:36.the store. If they make an appointment, we will try our best
:01:36. > :01:42.to make sure they are available. What about selling a few things?
:01:42. > :01:46.Would you resist that? It is very difficult. I firmly believe that if
:01:46. > :01:50.the works have been a quiet, whether purchased or given by
:01:50. > :01:54.people, to enrich the city's collections, they should stay in
:01:54. > :01:59.the public domain. It might be that they go to a more appropriate
:01:59. > :02:03.museum, there is always that option if it is not relevant to our
:02:03. > :02:09.collection but I firmly believe that if you sell something, you
:02:09. > :02:13.take it out of that public domain and once it is gone, it is gone.
:02:13. > :02:17.Thank you for coming in and talking about it. A lot of these are
:02:17. > :02:21.available to be seen on line as a result of the scheme so if this has
:02:21. > :02:28.got you fired up to find out about hidden paintings in your website
:02:28. > :02:34.there is a -- hidden paintings in your area, there is a website you
:02:34. > :02:39.can look at. That is about it for our part of the show. We will be
:02:39. > :02:43.off and out next week because of the Wimbledon men's final. We will