:00:47. > :00:50.Later in the programme: It was meant to be a retail park,
:00:50. > :00:53.but millions of pounds of taxpayers' money was spent on what
:00:53. > :00:56.has turned into a lorry park on Anglesey - we have the details.
:00:56. > :01:06.And harsh words from a Labour peer on the priorities of the Welsh
:01:06. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :30:58.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1791 seconds
:30:58. > :31:02.First, a flagship development on the outskirts of Holyhead has cost
:31:02. > :31:05.the taxpayer millions of pounds more than originally planned. The
:31:05. > :31:10.Parc Cybi site on Anglesey was supposed to be a business and
:31:10. > :31:15.retail park but is now a lorry park. Part of the project included an
:31:15. > :31:18.archaeological dig costing several million pounds. The business
:31:18. > :31:23.minister Edwina Hart has announced the site will now be sold. John
:31:23. > :31:27.Stephenson has the story. You can almost feel the hand of
:31:27. > :31:31.history reaching out. It is now known as Parc Cybi on the outskirts
:31:31. > :31:37.of Holyhead. Before the Roman work began, dozens of archaeologists
:31:37. > :31:41.work here. -- development work. As is normal, the site has now been
:31:41. > :31:45.covered up. But what they found here at Parc Cybi was an
:31:45. > :31:50.international -- of international significance. You have so much
:31:50. > :31:53.going on in this one site. It is not an individual site. In the past
:31:53. > :31:57.archaeologists focused on one monument but he'll have an entire
:31:57. > :32:01.landscape stretching thousands of years so it is significant -- here
:32:01. > :32:05.you have a landscape. It is not an everyday occurrence to find this
:32:05. > :32:09.kind of archaeology condensed in one reasonably small area and the
:32:09. > :32:13.information it gives you about the continuity of people, one community
:32:13. > :32:18.living in a site for several 1000 years is significant discovery.
:32:18. > :32:24.Parc Cybi was intended to be a major mixed-use site for north-west
:32:24. > :32:28.Wales, creating up to 1300 jobs. Well, the idea was to create
:32:28. > :32:31.businesses to help regenerate Holyhead and the Isle of Anglesey.
:32:31. > :32:35.The purpose hasn't changed and that but there will be interest being
:32:35. > :32:39.shown, but like everything else it is about the economic climate so it
:32:40. > :32:43.is taking time to get off the ground. All sorts of schemes were
:32:43. > :32:46.aired and there was even talk of trying to persuade the Home Office
:32:46. > :32:52.to site a new prison, but like the archaeology they have discovered,
:32:52. > :32:56.all that is now history. By spending millions to develop the
:32:56. > :33:00.site the Welsh Government had hoped to create jobs. This -- the final
:33:00. > :33:05.scheme, though, is nothing like that originally planned. One bone
:33:05. > :33:09.of contention is the millions spent on the archaeology. What have they
:33:09. > :33:14.been doing? I know it is a slow process and they have to move stone
:33:14. > :33:18.by stone, step-by-step, but �4 million? I am sorry, I cannot get
:33:18. > :33:23.my head around that or justify that to people and I will not try. It is
:33:23. > :33:27.a no-brainer for me. That argument, say the critics, is totally
:33:27. > :33:31.disingenuous. I think what has happened in Parc Cybi, it is
:33:31. > :33:34.devious in a way, the archaeology has almost been made a scapegoat
:33:34. > :33:38.for the fact that the park has not developed the way they intended.
:33:38. > :33:42.You find a lot of these developments parks, they have ideas
:33:42. > :33:47.which are not necessarily fulfilled afterwards. So I think, the
:33:47. > :33:51.question is, the overall budget of that Park, it is nothing to do with
:33:51. > :33:56.the archaeology, the reason it subsequently has not been used.
:33:56. > :34:00.total cost for developing Parc Cybi was going to be in the region of
:34:00. > :34:06.�11 million, but the Welsh Government have now revealed to the
:34:06. > :34:11.politics show that work on the Parc Cybi site would have cost the
:34:11. > :34:16.taxpayer �21 million. Last week, at the Business Mr Edwina Hart finally
:34:16. > :34:19.gave the green light to the sale of Parc Cybi to an investment company.
:34:19. > :34:25.-- Business Minister. They plan to develop a transport hub and lorry
:34:25. > :34:30.park which, they say, could create 70 jobs and boost the Ireland's
:34:30. > :34:34.economy -- the island's economy. Earlier this month the Supreme
:34:34. > :34:41.Court was said that laws passed by the Assembly Government have the
:34:41. > :34:44.same legal weight as laws passed by the UK Parliament. We discuss the
:34:44. > :34:49.issue with the Consul General Theodore Huckle.
:34:49. > :34:53.I met the consul-general at his office at the Wales HQ at Cathays
:34:53. > :34:57.Park. The Supreme Court judgment followed a challenge by insurance
:34:57. > :35:00.companies against a law passed by the Scottish parliament. The First
:35:00. > :35:03.Minister Carwyn Jones intervened to support the Scottish position
:35:03. > :35:09.because he believed the constitutional principle applies
:35:09. > :35:14.here as much as it does in Scotland. This is a very detailed judgment,
:35:14. > :35:18.but essentially, as I understand it, it is about companies not being
:35:18. > :35:22.able to get around decisions made by democratically elected
:35:22. > :35:29.politicians, whether they be in Edinburgh or in Cardiff, using the
:35:29. > :35:32.judicial system. Absolutely. And it is a result which, on behalf of the
:35:32. > :35:37.Welsh Government and I hope the people of Wales, we are absolutely
:35:37. > :35:41.delighted. It is that line, isn't it, between the judiciary and
:35:42. > :35:45.democratic processes that we are dealing with here. Absolutely.
:35:45. > :35:51.is putting the Assembly in Wales and the parliament in Scotland at
:35:51. > :35:54.the same level as the parliament, the UK Parliament. Yes. We have to
:35:54. > :35:57.remember that just as with the Scottish parliament, the National
:35:57. > :36:02.Assembly for Wales axe under the powers given to it by the
:36:02. > :36:06.government of Wales Act. -- acts. Within that acts there are certain
:36:06. > :36:11.procedures for reviewing what Wales does by way of legislation and
:36:11. > :36:17.ensuring that that is within what we lawyer's core competence. For
:36:17. > :36:20.example, if provisions were to breach the convention of human
:36:21. > :36:24.rights or European law, they would automatically be outside the
:36:24. > :36:27.competence, the legislative competence of the National Assembly
:36:27. > :36:31.for Wales in this case and the same applies for the Scottish parliament.
:36:31. > :36:35.On that basis, the legislation would be capable of being referred
:36:35. > :36:38.to the Supreme Court and struck down. That is all taking place
:36:38. > :36:42.within the structure of the Act, and everybody understands that and
:36:42. > :36:49.we are quite happy with that ability of the Supreme Court to
:36:49. > :36:53.review what the Assembly's legislative assemblies do. It is a
:36:53. > :36:57.different matter when we consider judicial review, a common law
:36:57. > :37:04.remedy which everyone can bring if they have appropriate standing on
:37:04. > :37:07.an issue, to challenge an action taken by a minister, say, or an act
:37:07. > :37:12.of secondary legislation, to say that it is, in this case,
:37:12. > :37:18.irrational, for example. We were very strongly of the view that that
:37:18. > :37:23.remedy, that challenge, should not be available in relation to primary
:37:23. > :37:27.legislation or legislation of a primary nature passed by, in this
:37:27. > :37:31.case, people elected by the people of Wales. As was said in a legal
:37:31. > :37:36.judgment, you cannot have organisations, rather than working
:37:36. > :37:40.through the democratic process, using the law to subvert
:37:40. > :37:44.democratically taken decisions on legislation. Absolutely. The
:37:44. > :37:47.doctrine of separation pub -- doctrine of separation of powers
:37:47. > :37:52.provides that there are three elements of government, the rule of
:37:52. > :37:56.law, if you like, that is, the legislature, the executive and
:37:56. > :38:01.judiciary. The judiciary, the courts, will refer to the power of
:38:01. > :38:06.the legislature, if you like, the primary law-making body, which is
:38:06. > :38:13.directly elected by the electorate, and will only interfere when it has
:38:14. > :38:18.the power to do so, and it is always accepted that it does not
:38:18. > :38:21.ordinarily have the power to intervene. So it does not second-
:38:21. > :38:27.guess what the people's representatives have provided
:38:27. > :38:32.should be the law. Do you foresee any interesting battles ahead that
:38:32. > :38:38.are likely to be battles... Are you expecting fun and games over that?
:38:38. > :38:42.A I look forward to issues of that type which will arise, because it
:38:42. > :38:46.is a very exciting time to be in Wales generally and a lawyer in
:38:46. > :38:51.Wales in particular. It is a very exciting time to be in this post in
:38:51. > :38:54.Wales, for all the aforesaid reasons. I cannot predict when the
:38:54. > :38:59.issues will arise, really, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are
:38:59. > :39:03.quite a lot of issues which arise over the coming years, because if
:39:03. > :39:06.the First Minister... The First Minister is on record as saying
:39:06. > :39:11.that this legal jurisdiction of England and Wales is the only one
:39:11. > :39:17.in the world where there are two legislative bodies which can pass
:39:17. > :39:23.measures, acts of equal status to affect the lives of the people of
:39:23. > :39:26.Wales. Part of that overall jurisdiction. Therefore it seems to
:39:26. > :39:30.be inevitable that there will be situations where if not a clash,
:39:30. > :39:34.there will certainly be rubbing up against each other of those two
:39:34. > :39:41.spheres of operation, so when that happens, it has to be worked out in
:39:41. > :39:45.some way, and there may be challenges to be considered. There
:39:45. > :39:51.maybe advice to be given, but it is not for me to predict when and
:39:51. > :39:55.where. Is there a possibility or even a likelihood of a separate
:39:55. > :39:59.legal system for Wales in the not- too-distant future? People use that
:39:59. > :40:03.expression to mean a very different things. It means different things
:40:03. > :40:10.to have raised using it. You will know that the First Minister
:40:10. > :40:14.announced a week or so ago that there will be a debate about that
:40:14. > :40:18.issue, because people are talking about it, and there will be a Green
:40:18. > :40:23.Paper, probably the first one to be issued by the government in Wales
:40:23. > :40:28.since the election and since the referendum, and I look forward to
:40:28. > :40:32.that debate as well. It is obviously one eye as a lawyer and
:40:32. > :40:37.interested in generally, but specifically because I am in this
:40:37. > :40:41.role now. That was the Consul General
:40:41. > :40:45.Theodore Huckle. On Radio Wales at 1pm you can hear
:40:45. > :40:49.the annual Patrick Hannan Lecture. The first lecture in memory of the
:40:49. > :40:54.distinguished broadcaster is being given by former Labour MP Baroness
:40:54. > :40:59.Eluned Morgan. The topic is Labour and devolution. She pulls no
:40:59. > :41:03.punches as she revealed to our political Editor Betsan Powys.
:41:03. > :41:07.Let's start with redefining the relationship with the private
:41:07. > :41:11.sector. I think there has been suspicion in the past from many
:41:11. > :41:14.members of the Labour Party in terms of how we relate to business,
:41:14. > :41:19.because our traditional relationship, you must remember,
:41:19. > :41:23.the history is one of bosses against the workers, and that has
:41:23. > :41:29.been the historic background to this. We do need to move on, and I
:41:29. > :41:34.think what happened was that that was understood when Tony Blair came
:41:34. > :41:39.into power in the UK. Labour in Wales however, didn't quite move in
:41:39. > :41:44.the same direction. They went too far, further than the rest of the
:41:44. > :41:46.UK with the prawn cocktail offensive, but in Wales we have to
:41:46. > :41:51.redefine our relationship particularly at this time, because
:41:51. > :41:54.they is no other choice if we want to create jobs in Wales. Do you
:41:54. > :41:58.think that suspicion is still tangible, can you still potter --
:41:58. > :42:01.spotted in the Welsh Labour movement and in government? It is
:42:01. > :42:06.definitely still there and we need to be careful in terms of what kind
:42:06. > :42:10.of industries we deal with, what kind of businesses, but the danger
:42:10. > :42:15.is that we have had suspicion against all of them because we have
:42:15. > :42:19.not known how to distinguish. I think we should be using the trade
:42:19. > :42:24.unions to help us identify who the good businesses are and to help to
:42:24. > :42:28.nurture and develop those industries, because that is how you
:42:28. > :42:32.get job creation in Wales, and job creation is absolutely crucial at
:42:32. > :42:35.this point in time. You made the point that you thought there ought
:42:35. > :42:40.to be greater care in not asking for too much devolution if that
:42:40. > :42:47.would harm prospects of job creation. Where is that barb aimed,
:42:47. > :42:50.at civil servants, politicians all wear? It is about resources,
:42:50. > :42:56.expertise and really focusing on what will improve the material
:42:56. > :43:00.well-being of the people of Wales. If it is simply about ideology,
:43:00. > :43:04.about, let's have more power for the sake of it, I think it is the
:43:04. > :43:09.wrong way to go. If it will help job creation, then of course do it,
:43:09. > :43:13.but here is a real question over whether there is a capacity, and
:43:13. > :43:17.the expertise in particular, at this time, when there is a real
:43:17. > :43:20.contraction in the Civil Service, to be able to deliver that.
:43:20. > :43:25.talk also about the need to make Wales an attractive place for
:43:25. > :43:31.business. That must be key. Labour has had a long time to do that. Are
:43:31. > :43:36.you just saying it hasn't got there yet? It has failed so far? When you
:43:36. > :43:39.look at the evidence, the investment from people outside
:43:39. > :43:45.Wales coming in to Wales has dropped, so there is obviously a
:43:45. > :43:49.problem that we have to address. The question is, how do we
:43:49. > :43:54.prioritise? Labour is doing great stuff, I think, but the question
:43:55. > :43:59.now I think is about prioritising, making sure the jobs agenda is
:43:59. > :44:03.absolutely the top the agenda. that not what it has been doing? It
:44:03. > :44:08.says it has been doing that for many years. Well, I think if we
:44:09. > :44:13.look at what has been discussed and what is discussed in the Assembly,
:44:13. > :44:18.you can see that it is not a Labour problem. I think all the other
:44:18. > :44:23.parties are equally guilty. We have been distracted by things we
:44:23. > :44:28.shouldn't be having. Like what? think there are issues we should be
:44:28. > :44:33.looking at. We spent a lot of time this week discussing smacking
:44:33. > :44:37.children. Of course it is an important issue, but at a time of
:44:37. > :44:42.crisis, when actually there is a question about whether that will
:44:42. > :44:46.follow through, I think it is about really spending time at making
:44:47. > :44:50.relationships, and really caught in the private sector at to make the
:44:50. > :44:55.investments in Wales. That is not being done to the extent it should
:44:55. > :44:59.be done. I think all the Assembly members, not just Labour members
:44:59. > :45:02.and ministers, could get involved in this. Every single Assembly
:45:02. > :45:08.member could be developing relationships with businesses in
:45:08. > :45:10.their communities. And to those who might say after this, Eluned Morgan
:45:10. > :45:15.spent a couple of years in the private sector, look what has
:45:15. > :45:18.happened to her, what would you say? I went to the private sector
:45:18. > :45:22.deliberately because I realised there weren't enough people within
:45:22. > :45:27.the Labour movement who had an understanding. I think there is a
:45:27. > :45:31.real suspicion by many people in the party, and because of that,
:45:31. > :45:35.there has been a fear of engagement, because we don't understand the
:45:35. > :45:38.language business speaks. Having seen it, listen, it is not all
:45:38. > :45:42.fantastic in the private sector, let me tell you, but what is
:45:42. > :45:46.interesting is that it is not that intimidating either. I don't think
:45:46. > :45:48.this is rocket science. I think it is simply about gaining the
:45:48. > :45:52.confidence within the administration to say, we are up
:45:52. > :45:59.for this and we will engage. It is comforting message was some of the
:45:59. > :46:04.movement, isn't it? -- for some of the movement. I don't think it is
:46:04. > :46:07.difficult. I think at this time of crisis, people need to understand
:46:07. > :46:11.that if they are serious about job creation, job creation will not
:46:11. > :46:14.come from the public sector, so there is only briefly a couple of
:46:14. > :46:18.other choices, and the private sector is central to that. Eluned
:46:18. > :46:22.Morgan, thank you. As we heard earlier on the politics
:46:22. > :46:26.show, the Commons will vote tomorrow on whether to have a
:46:26. > :46:31.referendum on EU membership. The coalition government and the Labour
:46:31. > :46:34.leadership are urging their MPs to oppose such a move. We have the
:46:34. > :46:40.Conservative MP for Abba Conwy who backs the referendum joining us
:46:40. > :46:43.from Bangor. Good afternoon. Why us a referendum such an important
:46:43. > :46:48.issue? Can I clarify the position first of
:46:48. > :46:52.all, I am backing an amendment which has signed up to which asks
:46:52. > :46:55.the government to produce a White Paper and on the basis of the White
:46:55. > :46:59.Paper explain what the negotiation position the government will take
:46:59. > :47:02.would be, then we would put that issue to a referendum. I do think
:47:02. > :47:07.the motion put forward in front of the House on Monday is
:47:07. > :47:10.fundamentally flawed in two ways, firstly it is a three option
:47:10. > :47:14.referendum which I think is dangerous, and secondly, one of the
:47:14. > :47:17.options is renegotiation but it does not explain what type of
:47:17. > :47:21.renegotiation. I think it would be wrong to was the people of this
:47:21. > :47:26.country to vote on a referendum were renegotiation is an option but
:47:26. > :47:30.there is no explanation whatsoever about what renegotiation would mean.
:47:30. > :47:34.One of your party's most prominent Euro-sceptics, William Hague, says
:47:34. > :47:39.this is not a time for a referendum because of the economic crisis. The
:47:39. > :47:44.Labour leader Ed Miliband says that people who were asking the UK to
:47:44. > :47:49.leave the EU are barking mad. Are you barking mad? I have never asked
:47:49. > :47:52.to leave the EU. I have always said it strongly we should renegotiate a
:47:52. > :47:56.position with the EU and that is the amendment we have put forward,
:47:56. > :47:59.that is what it aims to do. I understand what -- white William
:47:59. > :48:02.Hague is saying what he is saying because the euro zone crisis is
:48:02. > :48:07.significant and there is a real need to do with it if economic
:48:07. > :48:10.growth is to be delivered in the UK context. I do think the motion is
:48:10. > :48:14.probably wrongly timed and certainly very badly drafted, but
:48:14. > :48:19.ultimately, I have been asked to vote on an alternative vote
:48:19. > :48:27.referendum which I supported and a referendum on the powers of the
:48:27. > :48:31.Welsh Assembly. I want to stay with the EU and renegotiate with the EU,
:48:31. > :48:34.but it is no bad thing that issues which are important to the general
:48:34. > :48:37.public are debated in Parliament. What would you say to those
:48:37. > :48:43.claiming that this once again shows that the Conservative Party is
:48:43. > :48:46.divided on Europe? -- to those same this once again shows. This is a
:48:46. > :48:51.division between the pragmatic Euro-sceptic parliamentary party
:48:52. > :48:54.and those who are desperate to get the issue resolved immediately. The
:48:54. > :48:57.Conservative parliamentary party is fundamentally a Euro-sceptic but
:48:57. > :49:01.there is undoubtedly a division between the pragmatists, who feel
:49:01. > :49:05.we need to discuss what areas we want to renegotiate upon, and those
:49:05. > :49:09.who feel we should move immediately to a referendum. Unfortunately,
:49:09. > :49:13.even though I can see that, I cannot see any merit in a
:49:13. > :49:18.referendum proposal with three options. That is why a I hope our
:49:18. > :49:20.amendment, the George used as a moment, will be selected. George
:49:20. > :49:25.Eustace has also said that this has been badly handled by the
:49:25. > :49:28.government. Would you can care with that? I think that is a difficult
:49:28. > :49:31.question, because ultimately they are two ways we could deal with
:49:31. > :49:35.this as government. The government could have said this was a
:49:35. > :49:39.backbones is as much an and the government will not be bound --
:49:39. > :49:43.back bench business motion. Or they could have ignored it. I am proud
:49:43. > :49:46.that his coalition government has decided that this issue is
:49:46. > :49:49.fundamentally important and that they use the abuse of -- the views
:49:49. > :49:52.of Parliament have to be respected. The government has taken it
:49:52. > :49:57.seriously. Does that mean we have created contention within the
:49:57. > :50:01.party? Undoubtedly. You have touched on this already, as a final
:50:01. > :50:04.question, the government is not bound by the result of the moped --
:50:04. > :50:07.vote tomorrow, but what is the point? I disagree. You are
:50:07. > :50:10.technically correct that the government is not bound by the vote
:50:11. > :50:14.but it would be very difficult to explain to the British people that
:50:14. > :50:18.if the House of Commons voted in favour of this motion, the
:50:18. > :50:22.government ignored it -- that would be difficult to explain. We need a
:50:22. > :50:27.robust argument, but my own view is that the George used this amendment