:00:41. > :00:43.Here in Wales: The Archbishop of Wales accuses
:00:43. > :00:46.bankers who take big bonuses of moral blindness and offers comfort
:00:46. > :00:51.and warmth should there be protesters camped outside Llandaf
:00:51. > :01:01.Cathedral. And are the days of the blogs
:01:01. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :40:08.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2347 seconds
:40:08. > :40:15.Welcome to the Politics Show. Is there life in the Welsh blogosphere
:40:15. > :40:19.and the latest from a Ynys Mon Council. The Archbishop of Wales
:40:19. > :40:24.has joined the debate on the morality of big bonuses. He said
:40:24. > :40:28.there was a moral blindness on bonuses and he would offer to keep
:40:28. > :40:38.services going an offer warmth and security should they be protesters
:40:38. > :40:38.
:40:38. > :40:42.outside Llandaff Cathedral. I went to meet the Archbishop of Wales at
:40:43. > :40:47.his home in Llandaff. We discussed issues of morality and I began by
:40:47. > :40:53.asking him if he believed the recent process Arie sign there is a
:40:53. > :40:58.crusade against capitalism. It has been on the agenda for a very long
:40:58. > :41:02.time. The issue of the bankers over the last couple of years is just
:41:02. > :41:07.the tip of the iceberg. People are really asking, what are the real
:41:07. > :41:11.values of our society? It is quite interesting, I think, that even the
:41:11. > :41:19.banks have woken up to this. I was reading yesterday that the main
:41:19. > :41:24.banks have decided there needs to be a code of ethics for bankers. If
:41:24. > :41:29.they do not follow that code, they can be stripped of their jobs. It
:41:29. > :41:34.was rather interesting they have reached a point. The Harvard
:41:34. > :41:40.Business School has been commending that bankers and business people
:41:40. > :41:43.should actually take the same kind of oath as doctors. That is where
:41:43. > :41:49.the safeguard the interests of people they are serving. If they
:41:49. > :41:54.break that oath, they are out. I think it is quite interesting that
:41:54. > :41:59.all that is going on. I am not sure it is a simple debate about left or
:41:59. > :42:04.right. I think it is about values and what really matters in society.
:42:04. > :42:08.If you look at the word economics, it means Good Housekeeping. As a
:42:08. > :42:13.household, if you do not treat every member with respect and say,
:42:13. > :42:17.I will respect those who were affluent and they do not care what
:42:17. > :42:22.the rest, that is going to wreck the house told. The same thing is
:42:22. > :42:26.true in the country. St Paul's has been in focus in recent weeks. Can
:42:27. > :42:32.I quote you some of the things that have been said? It has been said,
:42:33. > :42:36.you got it wrong. It has been said, it was hasty to close the cathedral.
:42:36. > :42:42.The Canon of Leicester said, St Paul's should be keeping its doors
:42:42. > :42:47.open all night so protesters can shelter from the cold. What do you
:42:47. > :42:54.think? It is easier when you are on the outside to condemn decisions
:42:54. > :42:59.that are made in the heat of the moment. I would hope if this were
:42:59. > :43:04.to happen outside cathedral -- Llandaff Cathedral, I would hope we
:43:04. > :43:09.would keep the services going, keep the cathedral open, even though we
:43:09. > :43:13.might have to triple the people to get in there. I hope they would
:43:13. > :43:17.understand it stands there as a place of worship, as a blaze of
:43:17. > :43:21.dialogue, and they would be welcome to come in. I would hope the doors
:43:21. > :43:25.would remain open. -- a place of dialogue. Would you give them
:43:25. > :43:32.security overnight? Yes. The cathedral is heated in the winter.
:43:32. > :43:37.It is easy for me to say this. I would hope if people wanted to make
:43:37. > :43:41.peaceful protests and that did not disrupt the life of the cathedral
:43:41. > :43:46.as far as worship is concerned, we would be as accommodating as
:43:46. > :43:50.possible. Should the Church be claiming ordination gives you a
:43:50. > :43:56.privileged insight into solving the financial crisis? Not a soul. He
:43:57. > :44:02.does not at all. But what I think it does do is enable you to ask
:44:02. > :44:06.what are the values we ought to have. What is important for
:44:06. > :44:10.individuals and the country. It is interesting that businesses use
:44:10. > :44:17.spiritual language. We talk about their mission, they talk about the
:44:17. > :44:22.spare -- spirituality of business. They borrowed them from the church.
:44:22. > :44:27.It is very interesting there is an institute in Australia, the son
:44:27. > :44:32.James's Institute, that says everyone making a decision in
:44:32. > :44:35.business should ask himself, would I be happy for this to be on the
:44:35. > :44:42.record? What would happen if everybody did this? What would
:44:42. > :44:46.happen if people do this to me? If all of us asked those questions
:44:46. > :44:51.before we to decisions, we might come to very different ways of
:44:51. > :44:54.doing things. You say that ordination -- ordination does not
:44:54. > :44:59.give you that privilege. The Archbishop of Canterbury has said
:44:59. > :45:06.he is in favour of the Robin Hood tax. Is that not stepping on that
:45:06. > :45:12.territory? No. What he is saying, I think, he is expressing a personal
:45:12. > :45:16.opinion. I do not think he would claim he is an economist. He is a
:45:16. > :45:20.theologian. The job of anybody who is ordained is to ask difficult
:45:20. > :45:25.questions. He is asking the right moral questions. He is suggesting
:45:25. > :45:31.we have got it wrong, where you have got extreme poverty on the one
:45:31. > :45:37.hand and extreme riches on the other. For example, the bankers in
:45:37. > :45:42.2011, in January this year, awarded themselves �7 billion in bonuses.
:45:42. > :45:47.That is after nearly two main banks went to the wall. There is
:45:47. > :45:54.something wrong there. There is a moral blind us there. We have seen
:45:54. > :45:59.the anti-capitalist movement moved to Cardiff in recent days. Are you
:45:59. > :46:07.in favour of such widespread protest like this? As long as
:46:07. > :46:13.people are not violent and as long as they express their views and as
:46:13. > :46:19.long as they did attract elements that are there for the hell of it,
:46:19. > :46:25.yes, I am. How else do people make their feelings known? What would
:46:25. > :46:29.you say to those who, to coin a phrase from the financial word,
:46:29. > :46:34.that the churches overtrading on that this matter? It is stepping
:46:34. > :46:40.beyond what is acceptable for the Church to be voicing its opinion
:46:40. > :46:44.on? It's an extension of the argument that religion or to keep
:46:45. > :46:48.out of politics. Politics is the way we run our society and
:46:48. > :46:54.therefore there are moral questions it. It seems to me that believing
:46:54. > :46:59.in God means everyone of us is made in the image of God and if that is
:46:59. > :47:06.true, the way that people are treated by institutions is a matter
:47:06. > :47:12.for the Christian faith. On another issue of morality, organ donation.
:47:12. > :47:17.We have heard the plans from the Welsh government. You have voice
:47:17. > :47:21.your concerns in the past that the plans in the new government have
:47:21. > :47:28.announced are no different to the plans which were announced by the
:47:28. > :47:32.previous government. I suppose the question is, what next for you?
:47:32. > :47:37.would not want to be seen as leading some kind of campaign. My
:47:37. > :47:41.job was to raise moral questions about the proposed legislation and
:47:41. > :47:45.the road -- and the proposed legislation has now been put into a
:47:45. > :47:48.white paper. It is up for consultation. I hope there will be
:47:48. > :47:54.widespread discussion about this because they really do think this
:47:54. > :48:01.is a moral issue. Presumed consent is the wrong way to go, I think. It
:48:01. > :48:05.takes away individual rides. I know it it is an emotive subject. --
:48:06. > :48:11.individual rights. We need more organ donors but the way to do that
:48:11. > :48:16.is to encourage more people to give their organs rather than to say, if
:48:16. > :48:20.you have not opted out, then the state will use your organs.
:48:20. > :48:24.Charities in this field are claiming presumed content --
:48:24. > :48:30.consent would increase the number of donations. Some people would say
:48:30. > :48:34.there is a contradiction between what you are saying on one hand and
:48:34. > :48:41.then being the Archbishop of Wales, who would want to see as many
:48:41. > :48:46.people getting better as possible? Absolutely. I carry an organ donor
:48:46. > :48:52.card myself. That is not the issue. It is the way they set about it.
:48:52. > :48:56.The evidence is more ambiguous than they think. Israel has presumed
:48:56. > :49:00.consent. The number of organ donations have not increased. It is
:49:00. > :49:04.rather interesting, I think, that organ donations in Wales over the
:49:04. > :49:09.last two years have increased by 66%. That is more than any other
:49:09. > :49:13.part of the UK, according to research by the University of
:49:13. > :49:18.Ulster. I think there are other ways of going about it. Spain, 10
:49:18. > :49:23.years after it had presumed consent, did not have any more organ
:49:23. > :49:28.donations. Once it set up a new translation -- transplantation Unit,
:49:28. > :49:33.more organs became available. Do you think people need to be better
:49:34. > :49:41.educated on this matter? Some doctors have said there are a
:49:41. > :49:46.shortage of critical care beds in Wales. Do you have concerns in that
:49:46. > :49:50.field? Yes. I think my main concern is to raise his moral question
:49:50. > :49:54.about presumed consent. Is this the right way for any government to go?
:49:54. > :50:00.It is not consent, they are assuming that if you have not opted
:50:00. > :50:03.out, the organs become a state organs. I know the White Paper says
:50:03. > :50:07.they will take family views into consideration but that is very
:50:07. > :50:13.vague. What does that actually mean? Do you believe that to be a
:50:13. > :50:18.case? That the Government will take the family's word as the final
:50:18. > :50:22.word? A did not say that in the White Paper. It says it will take
:50:22. > :50:28.their views into consideration. It does not say what ever the family
:50:28. > :50:33.decides, even if these people have not opted out, we will take the
:50:34. > :50:39.family's side. It does not say that. There needs to be greater clarity
:50:39. > :50:45.about that. We have to have promises, in the legislation, to
:50:45. > :50:51.say that if the family really reject -- object, it will not
:50:51. > :50:58.happen. There is another moral issue here. Imagine somebody who is
:50:59. > :51:03.obviously dying, who has not opted to give organs, Elise the doctors
:51:03. > :51:09.can say to the family, this is a terrible tragedy for you but some
:51:09. > :51:14.good can come out of it. The organs of your father could be used by
:51:14. > :51:17.other people. Would you be willing to do that? There is a world of
:51:17. > :51:23.difference between that scenario and the scenario of doctors saying,
:51:23. > :51:29.I'm sorry, your father has not opted out. We have to take his
:51:29. > :51:37.organs. It is a totally different scene, it seems to me. Thank you.
:51:37. > :51:40.That was the Archbishop of Wales. The Leveson Inquiry into press
:51:40. > :51:43.standards is casting an eye over the blogosphere and considering
:51:43. > :51:48.whether there is any way of regulating blogs and news websites.
:51:48. > :51:52.Are a difficult task but even if it were desirable, will there be many
:51:52. > :52:01.blogs left to police in a couple of years' time? Have they lost much of
:52:01. > :52:05.their appeal as other social media have become more dominant?
:52:06. > :52:10.Half a decade ago, blogs seemed to be everywhere on the internet.
:52:10. > :52:17.Anyone who was anyone had a blog. Journalists would be scanning them
:52:17. > :52:24.on a daily basis. Now blogs are a bit more thin on the ground.
:52:24. > :52:34.think it is a very weak creature compared to what it was four years
:52:34. > :52:40.ago. In 2007, the Welsh blogosphere was vibrant. It was feeding into
:52:40. > :52:44.the political discourse. People were blogging right, left and
:52:44. > :52:50.centre. I look out there now and I see very little remaining. There
:52:50. > :52:57.are a few interesting blogs that still exist but actually they are
:52:57. > :53:01.not a daily must read. That is the editor of Wales home. Twitter, the
:53:01. > :53:09.Social media of choice for many politicians and journalists, has
:53:09. > :53:17.cut the blogs down to size. Yet they still have a role. This man
:53:17. > :53:21.blogs in Welsh. You are getting two levels. You're getting Twitter for
:53:21. > :53:25.the short instant doors, the breaking news stories, and then the
:53:25. > :53:31.more considered stuff is still there on the box. Blogs only came
:53:31. > :53:41.on the scene five years ago and may have changed so much. Where we are
:53:41. > :53:47.heading, who knows. Blogs almost seemed a bit old-fashioned. Yes.
:53:47. > :53:51.What you see is a shakedown. When blogs started, it was possible for
:53:51. > :53:59.people who were not connected to news organisations to build a big
:53:59. > :54:06.sides with big followings very quickly. -- sites. Those have
:54:06. > :54:11.tailed off now. The big boards are now are the ones that tend to be
:54:11. > :54:17.attached to other media outlets or attached to political parties or
:54:17. > :54:22.particular thought groups. One of the appeals of blogs is their
:54:22. > :54:29.freedom. This week we learned that Leveson Inquiry will also consider
:54:29. > :54:36.regulating blogs. What does a veteran blogger make of that? This
:54:36. > :54:40.man has been active for eight years. You do have recourse to the law.
:54:40. > :54:49.Bloggs's in Britain are subject to libel laws. They are subject to
:54:49. > :54:53.other laws. -- bloggers. Someone on Facebook has been prosecuted. They
:54:53. > :54:58.are trying to edit the Continent when you can move the block to
:54:58. > :55:03.another provider, even in Russia or China, how do you follow that? --
:55:03. > :55:11.move the blog. How do you regularly the anonymous is one of the first
:55:11. > :55:16.big questions. Generally, the sites that need regulation are anonymous.
:55:16. > :55:21.I spend a lot of my time working on a website and we are very, very
:55:21. > :55:26.careful, not just in the articles but in terms of Commons, because
:55:26. > :55:30.ultimately there our libel laws which can be used against people
:55:30. > :55:36.who publish certain types of material. I think there is a legal
:55:36. > :55:46.set-up that already exists. It is easy to forget the law of the
:55:46. > :55:49.
:55:49. > :55:56.land applies to social media. the MPs were fiddling their
:55:56. > :55:59.expenses, three Labour MPs went before the court. I was just on the
:56:00. > :56:04.point of saying something quite humorous about that fact and I
:56:04. > :56:12.suddenly realise, good God, that would be contempt of court. You
:56:12. > :56:16.have to think very carefully. There is a kind of... There is an
:56:16. > :56:20.attraction to say almost anything. But you have to think about it.
:56:20. > :56:26.pace of change in social media has been breathtaking. Who knows what
:56:26. > :56:30.it will look like in five years? One fairly safe bet is the long arm
:56:30. > :56:37.of the British law is likely to be the only formal regulation reaching
:56:37. > :56:41.into the blogosphere any time soon. BBC Wales understands the county
:56:41. > :56:45.council elections on Anglesey are likely to be postponed for 12
:56:45. > :56:51.months because of a review of the council's selectorial boundaries.
:56:51. > :56:58.Elections across Wales will be held in May. Our correspondent joins us
:56:58. > :57:01.now. What has been announced -- what is being announced? We will
:57:02. > :57:11.get the announcement of draft proposals by the Boundary
:57:12. > :57:15.
:57:15. > :57:19.Commission, affecting the number of Air pictorial world -- electoral
:57:19. > :57:23.wards. There are draft proposals tomorrow. That goes on, an
:57:23. > :57:26.opportunity for the public to air their views until the end of
:57:26. > :57:33.January. The commission then reviews those responses, prepares
:57:33. > :57:40.its final proposals, submits those to the minister some time in March.
:57:40. > :57:45.This is far more than a small story. This process is part of the encore
:57:45. > :57:51.Un process to try and get democracy to mean something. -- ongoing
:57:51. > :57:57.process. This story has profound political implications for the
:57:57. > :58:05.electorate of Anglesey. How does that affect the timing of
:58:05. > :58:09.elections? Elections do not happen overnight. There is a process of
:58:09. > :58:13.preparation, the register has to be prepared. If you do not know for
:58:13. > :58:20.certain what the wards are going to be, the number of people living in
:58:20. > :58:23.the ward, it is very difficult to prepare for the register. The work
:58:23. > :58:29.to plan for the election would normally staff at the beginning of
:58:29. > :58:34.next month and it looks highly problematic -- normally start. They
:58:34. > :58:40.do not look like they will be held in May. The likelihood is they will
:58:40. > :58:47.be held -- deferred for 12 months. That is what I asked the Leader of
:58:47. > :58:52.the Labour group. I asked him if he foresaw a elections happening. This
:58:52. > :58:57.is what he said. I do not think so. They will be very difficult, I
:58:57. > :59:01.would imagine, because of the timescale involved. The local
:59:01. > :59:06.authority has to get the electoral list out by December of this year
:59:06. > :59:10.in order to get the elections in May. I do not think currently that
:59:10. > :59:16.will be possible because we do not know what the new boundaries are
:59:16. > :59:20.going to be. It is important to remember anglers
:59:20. > :59:23.the council is subject to what they call special measures, the
:59:23. > :59:32.authority is being run by commissioners appointed by the
:59:32. > :59:39.local government, the whole object of this exercise was to bring
:59:39. > :59:43.democratic renewal to the island in terms of the age profile and so