:00:53. > :00:55.Later in the programme, the Welsh secretary of the Unite union
:00:55. > :00:59.defends Wednesday's planned public sector strike.
:00:59. > :01:09.And the Welsh budget deal is done but at what price? The powerbroker,
:01:09. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :34:44.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2014 seconds
:34:44. > :34:47.the Leader of the Lib Dems Kirsty Hello and welcome to the Politics
:34:47. > :34:56.Show in Wales. Coming up, we'll hear from one of the Welsh budget's
:34:56. > :35:00.powerbrokers. It would have been unthinkable,
:35:00. > :35:03.giving it these difficult times, for parties to leave this country
:35:03. > :35:06.without a budget. But first, as Wednesday draws near it's becoming
:35:06. > :35:08.clearer how the biggest day of industrial action for a generation
:35:08. > :35:14.will affect our public services. Airports, courts, government
:35:14. > :35:16.offices, job centers, schools and council services will be hit. It's
:35:16. > :35:22.in protest at UK Government plans to make public sector workers
:35:22. > :35:24.retire later and contribute more to the cost of their pensions. Our
:35:24. > :35:27.reporter has been talking to Andy Richards, Unite's Wales secretary
:35:27. > :35:35.and TUC Wales President, at the union's recently refurbished
:35:35. > :35:40.Cardiff headquarters. The for more than three decades,
:35:40. > :35:43.this building, formerly known as Transport House in Cardiff, has
:35:43. > :35:47.been the hub of the labour movement in Wales.
:35:47. > :35:51.We spent �3.5 million on the building. It really need is
:35:51. > :35:56.spending. Unite Wales secretary Andy Richards
:35:56. > :35:59.told me that for years of refurbishment and �3.5 million of
:35:59. > :36:03.investment had finally tracked the previously down-at-heel
:36:03. > :36:09.headquarters of trade unions, the Wales TUC and the Welsh Labour
:36:09. > :36:15.Party into the 21st century. We have a new banner here. This is
:36:15. > :36:20.the Red Dragon. The banner of Wales. But it was the biggest labour
:36:20. > :36:24.dispute of this century that we have come to discuss. Andy Richards,
:36:24. > :36:27.what sort of level of disruption are you expected on Wednesday? What
:36:27. > :36:31.will public services look like to the public?
:36:31. > :36:38.Let me just say that we don't wish as a union to have any disruption
:36:38. > :36:42.at all. If it were possible that we could drag this Westminster
:36:42. > :36:48.government back to the negotiating table feet-first and kicking, we
:36:48. > :36:51.possibly wouldn't be having any disruption but we anticipate in
:36:51. > :36:55.Wales very few public services to be actually working.
:36:55. > :36:59.What level of public support do you think you have? It is a very
:36:59. > :37:02.difficult time for people at the moment. They are worried about
:37:02. > :37:08.their jobs and incomes are being squeezed. Is this the right time
:37:08. > :37:12.for this level of action? At this point in time, we have got
:37:12. > :37:17.quite significant growth in public support. That was shown at the June
:37:17. > :37:24.event that we had when teachers went on strike. As more and more
:37:24. > :37:29.people come into the knowledge that they are being asked to pay for a
:37:29. > :37:36.crisis engineered by the heads of the financial institutions, Cameron
:37:36. > :37:40.and Clegg's makes, and we see the attacks on workers' rights and
:37:40. > :37:48.trade unions coming forth from the Tories as usual, I think there is
:37:48. > :37:54.significant growing support. I think a lot of people, our parents,
:37:54. > :37:59.they see that cutbacks and losses of jobs in support services and so
:37:59. > :38:04.on, those loss of jobs mean there is going to be nothing for children
:38:04. > :38:11.when they leave school. As parents, we want better for our children at
:38:11. > :38:14.that age. People are coming to realise the severity of what this
:38:14. > :38:17.unelected Tory and Liberal Alliance are doing.
:38:17. > :38:21.One of the criticisms we are seeing from government is that public
:38:21. > :38:27.sector workers have pensions that people in the private sector could
:38:27. > :38:32.only dream of. Gold-plated pensions is what we hear. Can you give us an
:38:32. > :38:37.idea of the level of pension we are talking about amongst your members?
:38:37. > :38:44.Absolutely. Gold-plated? They are more like a brass plate it as far
:38:44. > :38:49.as our members are concerned. Our members in public services
:38:49. > :38:54.generally can expect a pension of between 70 and �80 per week when
:38:54. > :39:00.they retire. That is the vast majority of our members. There are
:39:00. > :39:06.the small section of employees who are on greater pensions but if you
:39:06. > :39:11.are asking me the majority of Unite union members, that is the actual
:39:11. > :39:15.level we are talking about. It is a fact that is being glossed over by
:39:15. > :39:23.this particular government. One of the issues you have got his
:39:23. > :39:27.the turnout level in at the ballot. 31 % of your members actually voted
:39:27. > :39:31.at all. Surely that is a problem for you that fewer than a third
:39:31. > :39:35.actually turned out and voted. Let me let you in on a little
:39:35. > :39:41.secret and the West -- and the rest of the Welsh nation. The reason we
:39:41. > :39:46.only have those turnouts in ballots is a result of people not are not
:39:46. > :39:52.supporting the union's line but in the main, people don't like to post
:39:52. > :39:57.a ballot paper back. You can't say that out of all the people that
:39:57. > :40:02.have underrated, they would have voted against the strike. Our
:40:02. > :40:06.indications given the polls we are doing that Unite, they show that
:40:06. > :40:09.most of them would have supported the strike. If David Cameron is
:40:10. > :40:13.saying that all of those people who didn't vote in the ballot would
:40:13. > :40:18.have voted in father, it follows that all those people who didn't
:40:18. > :40:28.vote for him would have voted for Labour? I don't think so. We have
:40:28. > :40:32.to be realistic. 31 %, given the ballot process, is not ideal but it
:40:32. > :40:36.is realistic and we can proceed with this dispute.
:40:36. > :40:39.Thank you. Earlier I spoke to Labour's Nia
:40:39. > :40:48.Griffiths and the Conservative Alun Cairns. I began by asking him for
:40:48. > :40:51.his reaction to what the unions are saying. I don't accept that. What
:40:51. > :40:55.frustrates me and disappoints me more than anything is that
:40:55. > :41:00.negotiations are ongoing and what sort of negotiations do you have
:41:00. > :41:05.when there is a strike hanging over you? It is worth remembering that
:41:05. > :41:08.the ballot was conducted generally for most of the unions in September.
:41:08. > :41:13.Just two weeks ago, at the beginning of November, the
:41:13. > :41:18.government offered a very generous concession in relation to the
:41:18. > :41:22.pension to improve it for lower earners and to protect the pensions
:41:22. > :41:28.for anyone who retires in the next 10 years. A significant shift on
:41:28. > :41:31.behalf of the government a few weeks ago but yet the unions are
:41:31. > :41:36.driving home strike action on Wednesday which could tip the
:41:36. > :41:40.economy over the edge into recession. That is what worries me.
:41:41. > :41:45.Nia Griffiths, negotiations are ongoing. Why walk away from the
:41:45. > :41:49.table now and why not give ground, seeing that the government has made
:41:49. > :41:53.compromise already? What sort of negotiators have we
:41:53. > :41:57.got? We have got megaphone negotiations with one thing being
:41:57. > :42:01.said, we will withdraw this offer if you don't call off your stride
:42:01. > :42:05.immediately, and a publication on the government's own website of a
:42:05. > :42:08.table which shows people are going to have 20 % cuts when the
:42:08. > :42:12.government is telling them they won't have those cuts. People don't
:42:12. > :42:17.have much faith when they see that happening. The government has had
:42:17. > :42:27.months and months to be round the table with unions on this. In 2000
:42:27. > :42:32.date, we bit the bullet and sorted things out. -- 2008. It was sorted
:42:32. > :42:35.out by negotiation. We never came to a stage like this. We have 33
:42:35. > :42:40.unions. Some very, very moderate unions and people who have never
:42:40. > :42:43.been on strike. A whole range of public sector workers who are
:42:43. > :42:48.extremely frustrated. The majority of them on not
:42:48. > :42:55.bothering to vote? The answer to that is what Andy
:42:55. > :42:59.said. We are all very, very busy. People have jobs and families.
:42:59. > :43:03.There wasn't the hype in the media we now have won the ballot was
:43:03. > :43:07.being done. A lot of this debate is centred
:43:07. > :43:14.around the gold-plated pensions. Where is the fairness in cutting
:43:14. > :43:17.the pensions of people who will be retiring on �4,000 per year or?
:43:18. > :43:21.That will relate to the salary level those people would have
:43:21. > :43:24.earned as well as the amount of years they would have contributed.
:43:24. > :43:29.Under the significant concession that was offered a couple of weeks
:43:29. > :43:33.ago, it would protect anyone and improved the penchant for anyone
:43:33. > :43:38.earning up to �15,000 a year and protect the interests of people
:43:38. > :43:43.earning up to �21,000 per year so the lowest earners would be
:43:43. > :43:46.protected and have better contributions. Anyone within 10
:43:46. > :43:51.years of retirement would be preserved and have exactly the same
:43:51. > :43:56.sort of pension they get now. That leave it the other a group of
:43:56. > :43:58.people that earned a lot more money. That gives them the opportunity to
:43:58. > :44:01.increase their contributions to insure they have their pensions for
:44:01. > :44:04.much longer because people are living longer.
:44:04. > :44:10.Do you believe everyone in the public sector is retiring on a
:44:10. > :44:14.gold-plated pensions? Under the terms of the pension, yes.
:44:14. > :44:17.Everyone in the public sector? Compared to the amount of
:44:17. > :44:21.contributions... That would be their salary that they would have
:44:21. > :44:26.earned and it would relate to their salary.
:44:26. > :44:29.�15,000 per year retiring on �4,000 a year? Is that there?
:44:29. > :44:33.If you are someone in the private sector earning that sum of money,
:44:33. > :44:36.they wouldn't even have that level of benefit that people in the
:44:36. > :44:40.public sector are getting so why don't have an issue with public
:44:40. > :44:46.sector workers themselves. I have an issue with union leaders are
:44:46. > :44:49.hell-bent on striking whatever the issue may be. That goes to show
:44:49. > :44:53.that huge concessions offered by the government a few weeks ago but
:44:53. > :44:58.they are determined to drive the strike home. The most delicate
:44:59. > :45:02.thing about this is the economy. It really does will be made at �500
:45:02. > :45:06.million, this strike will cost the economy, and she may drive a number
:45:06. > :45:11.of businesses in Wales and across the UK out of business.
:45:11. > :45:17.The Labour Party is in a pickle. You are so reliant on the unions
:45:17. > :45:23.for many -- for money and yet you are coming out and saying that
:45:23. > :45:28.people have the right to go on strike. It seems contradictory.
:45:28. > :45:32.I think we should all defend the right to strike. Let us look at the
:45:32. > :45:36.actual facts. The government has admitted this is a 3% tax. It is a
:45:36. > :45:41.tax, they have said, to help pay back the deficit. They recognise
:45:41. > :45:46.the pension thing was sorted out in 2008. You have people on low
:45:46. > :45:52.incomes losing �30 a month. People on average incomes are losing �90 a
:45:52. > :46:01.month. That is a lot of money went fewer and fewer -- fuel prices are
:46:01. > :46:04.rocketing. Money is being taken out of the economy and that money is
:46:04. > :46:08.actually going to send a lot of private businesses spiralling to
:46:08. > :46:13.have a. These generalities are not accurate.
:46:13. > :46:18.A teacher retiring on �32,000 a year will amass after they have
:46:18. > :46:25.worked for 40 years a pension funds equivalent to �600,000. That is a
:46:25. > :46:30.generality. I am not using this figure to counteract what Nia
:46:30. > :46:34.Griffiths is saying. I want to say we should protect the contributions
:46:34. > :46:38.of lowest earners and protect the worms are due to retire shortly.
:46:38. > :46:43.Can we move on to the Autumn Statement? One of the headlines is
:46:43. > :46:47.a new package of stimulus for small to medium-sized enterprises and a
:46:47. > :46:52.loan guarantee from the government. Is that going to be enough, bearing
:46:52. > :46:56.in mind that on average there are 1,200 people being made unemployed
:46:56. > :47:01.everyday? The economy is in a very difficult
:47:01. > :47:05.situation, in spite of the deficit reduction plans we have got. A
:47:05. > :47:11.quarter of every penny spent on salaries of public sector workers,
:47:11. > :47:21.a quarter of it is being borrowed, amounting to one of the �20 million
:47:21. > :47:24.
:47:24. > :47:28.a day on interest on the debt only. -- one under �20 million. It is
:47:28. > :47:33.about trying to get confidence in the market and getting money out of
:47:33. > :47:37.small businesses so they can plan and expand. It has to be taken into
:47:37. > :47:40.account of the context of the wider economy around the world but
:47:40. > :47:44.particularly what happens in the euro-zone because I wouldn't mind
:47:44. > :47:48.betting some of the euro-zone countries won't be by Christmas.
:47:48. > :47:52.This is similar to the loan guarantee scheme which Labour
:47:52. > :47:56.announced back in 2008. We be supporting it?
:47:56. > :48:00.We want to see measures like this coming forward. I worry it is too
:48:01. > :48:06.little too late. The government has to make sure this lending to small
:48:06. > :48:10.businesses happens. Edwina Hart in Wales has promised �55 million for
:48:10. > :48:13.small businesses in Wales. We recognise the desperate need for
:48:14. > :48:18.helping small businesses to help the private economy grow, to help
:48:18. > :48:22.people create jobs. From the Chancellor we need larger measures
:48:22. > :48:28.as well to increase public confidence.
:48:28. > :48:32.We have to end it there, I am afraid. Nia Griffiths, Alun Cairns,
:48:32. > :48:35.Thank you. So, the deal's been done, the Liberal Democrats have signed
:48:35. > :48:38.up to the Welsh Government's budget. In return for Lib Dem support,
:48:38. > :48:41.Labour have agreed to agreed to what's described as an economic
:48:41. > :48:51.stimulus package to protect jobs and will spend an extra �20 million
:48:51. > :48:55.on the country's poorer pupils. The Liberal Democrats said that a
:48:55. > :49:00.proper funded people premium would be �40 million. As I understand it
:49:00. > :49:04.and we have just had the announcement, this is a �20 million
:49:04. > :49:07.announcement so this must be people premium light.
:49:07. > :49:10.The Liberals can show they are doing something but the Labour
:49:10. > :49:14.government has been spending the past six months condemning the
:49:14. > :49:18.Liberals for their policies in London. Obviously, they needed a
:49:19. > :49:23.partner and they have got one. But they have got one at a cheap price.
:49:23. > :49:29.We didn't know what Plaid Cymru wanted for weeks. We understood
:49:29. > :49:33.what they wanted in the end but it was too expensive. This is an
:49:33. > :49:36.agreement to secure a budget for the people of Wales. It was done
:49:36. > :49:41.after a lot of detailed negotiation and what is important is we can
:49:41. > :49:43.look forward to securing the financial basis for Wales in the
:49:43. > :49:48.year to come. And the Welsh Liberal Democrat
:49:48. > :49:53.leader, Kirsty Williams, joins me now.
:49:53. > :49:57.The people premium, as it is called, had a �40 million price tag
:49:57. > :50:01.attached to it. This is not the people premium, therefore.
:50:01. > :50:06.Of course, if the Welsh Liberal Democrats had won the election in
:50:06. > :50:10.May, we could have implemented the policy in full. Let us be clear,
:50:10. > :50:15.because of what we have been able to negotiate with the Labour Party,
:50:15. > :50:19.the money is more than doubled to go to the poorest children. An
:50:19. > :50:24.additional �20 million. A package of �32 million which will make a
:50:24. > :50:28.difference to the children who are not reaching their full potential.
:50:28. > :50:34.Only one in five of the children that receive free school meals go
:50:34. > :50:38.on to get five good GCSEs including maths and English. If we are to
:50:38. > :50:41.avoid the Welsh economy suffering in the decades to come, we have to
:50:41. > :50:46.upscale our workforce. This is the beginning of that programme.
:50:46. > :50:51.Transforming the chances. Under the people premium, the money,
:50:51. > :50:54.as I understood it, followed the child through their education. Can
:50:55. > :51:00.we take it for granted you have achieved a deal with the Labour
:51:00. > :51:05.government that will see this money continuing beyond this year?
:51:05. > :51:09.Obviously, the vote is on this year's budget. I am confident that
:51:09. > :51:13.when the documents are published next week, we will see an ongoing
:51:13. > :51:17.commitment to those poorest children. This money, you are right,
:51:17. > :51:21.will follow the child whether they are in primary or secondary school
:51:21. > :51:25.and will go directly to the schools, allowing head teachers and
:51:25. > :51:30.classroom teachers to decide how best to support those children.
:51:30. > :51:32.The money will have to continue, otherwise, if more teachers are
:51:32. > :51:36.employed through the people premium, they will have to be made
:51:36. > :51:40.unemployed? It would be an unwise government
:51:41. > :51:45.who would take this money away from our poorest children, who need it
:51:45. > :51:50.the most, so we can transform their chances and so that in years to
:51:50. > :51:54.come we will not be looking at these terrible statistics. We know
:51:54. > :51:59.that for years the Welsh economy has been based on cheap labour. We
:51:59. > :52:03.can't compete on that basis any more because there will always be
:52:03. > :52:07.countries in the Far East that will be cheaper. We need a prosperous
:52:07. > :52:11.economy in future and unless we tackle the problems facing our
:52:11. > :52:14.economy and put in place plans and policies to tackle some of this
:52:14. > :52:24.structural problems in the Welsh economy, we will never see the
:52:24. > :52:25.
:52:25. > :52:29.country move forward. Why not plough all of this money
:52:29. > :52:34.into a stimulus package? There is a stimulus package the
:52:34. > :52:37.details of which will be announced tomorrow. �38 million coming down
:52:37. > :52:44.from the Westminster government which will go into stimulating the
:52:45. > :52:48.economy in the next months to come. It is important to be able to plan
:52:48. > :52:52.for future generations. Otherwise, we will constantly have governments
:52:52. > :52:57.struggling to deal with the here and now and Wales is rest -- is
:52:57. > :53:01.poorer than the rest of the UK and it is incumbent on politicians to
:53:01. > :53:06.put in place policies to insure that in future, our economy will be
:53:06. > :53:10.in a stronger position to resist international economic crisis or
:53:10. > :53:14.downturns in the economy. The politics of this might lead
:53:14. > :53:18.someone to take the view that it is a relief for you to have an
:53:18. > :53:21.association with read -- with Labour after a close working
:53:21. > :53:26.relationships with your party and the Conservatives in Westminster?
:53:26. > :53:29.It demonstrates that the Liberal Democrats are working to work with
:53:29. > :53:35.other -- are willing to work with other political parties when the
:53:35. > :53:40.country needs it. When we didn't have a majority at Westminster
:53:40. > :53:43.level, we provided stability. Willing to work on the cheap
:53:43. > :53:47.according to Plaid Cymru? There is something depressingly
:53:47. > :53:51.predictable about the reaction of the other parties. It would have
:53:51. > :53:56.been inconceivable for this country at this difficult time not to have
:53:56. > :54:00.a budget that his past. We have played a part in that, providing
:54:00. > :54:03.that stability and creating an economic stimulus package and
:54:03. > :54:06.fulfilling our manifesto commitment to get resources to our poorest
:54:06. > :54:10.students. Can we end of the sad news that the
:54:10. > :54:15.first -- the Football Association of Wales have announced the death
:54:15. > :54:19.of the national team manager, Gary Speed, at the age of 42. What is
:54:19. > :54:24.your reaction to that sad news. It is a terrible, terrible shock
:54:24. > :54:28.and a tragedy for his family and a tragedy for Welsh football. He has
:54:28. > :54:31.only been manager for a fraught period of time but has made a big
:54:31. > :54:36.impact. We have seen that some great results and people across
:54:36. > :54:38.Wales will be very shocks today. Thank you. I am sure Alan year's