0:00:31 > 0:00:38We are in Manchester also where the summer riots continue to cast their
0:00:38 > 0:00:48shower -- shadow. In court, an MP says the law must swayed to the
0:00:48 > 0:00:48
0:00:48 > 0:36:34Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2145 seconds
0:36:34 > 0:36:36Hello again from the Midlands - except that we too are here with
0:36:36 > 0:36:40the Conservatives in Manchester, just round the corner from the
0:36:40 > 0:36:47scene of some of the worst of the summer riots along with Birmingham,
0:36:47 > 0:36:50Wolverhampton and West Bromwich in our part of the country. David
0:36:50 > 0:36:55Cameron told the perpetrators they'd face "the full force of the
0:36:55 > 0:37:01law". The Conservative MP for Stourbridge Margot James, said the
0:37:01 > 0:37:04courts "should err on the side of severity". But with the number of
0:37:04 > 0:37:06arrests in the Midlands now approaching 700, I'll be asking the
0:37:06 > 0:37:09Environment Secretary and Meriden MP, Caroline Spelman, and the
0:37:09 > 0:37:19leader of Staffordshire County Council, Philip Atkins, how far
0:37:19 > 0:37:24politicians should get involved. But let's hear first from our
0:37:24 > 0:37:33reporter Bob Hockenhull. He was joined by Margot James at a sitting
0:37:33 > 0:37:37The justice system is under pressure like never before after
0:37:37 > 0:37:41this summer's riots. Not just from the volume of defendants - in the
0:37:41 > 0:37:47West Midlands there have been 654 arrests - but also from the need to
0:37:47 > 0:37:50be seen to be tough on the rioters. On the evening of August 8th, I was
0:37:50 > 0:37:54out here in the centre of Birmingham reporting for Midlands
0:37:54 > 0:37:57Today. This area was teeming with gangs looking for shops to smash
0:37:57 > 0:38:03and loot. And within hours the police were rounding up suspects
0:38:03 > 0:38:06for the courts to deal with. Under pressure to deliver speedy justice,
0:38:06 > 0:38:09magistrates sat through the night passing sentence, their efforts
0:38:09 > 0:38:19winning praise in the Deputy Prime Minister's speech at the Liberal
0:38:19 > 0:38:21
0:38:21 > 0:38:27Democrat conference in the city last month. Here in Birmingham, the
0:38:27 > 0:38:31community stick together in the face of disorder and tragedy. Our
0:38:31 > 0:38:34emergency services, police and courts all rose to the challenge.
0:38:34 > 0:38:38But have some magistrates and judges gone too far by imposing
0:38:38 > 0:38:41sentences that are too harsh? As, the Royal Courts of Justice began
0:38:41 > 0:38:50hearing appeals from some of those convicted, the Chairman of the
0:38:50 > 0:38:55Magistrates Association was in Birmingham this week. I don't think
0:38:55 > 0:38:59there is evidence to suggest magistrates are coming down very
0:38:59 > 0:39:06hard but the harm caused by a single case of theft and burglary
0:39:06 > 0:39:12might be minimal -- two or �300 to the shopkeeper. But the harm caused
0:39:12 > 0:39:17to two or three single events in harmony could be quite significant.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20There are still plenty of suspects to come before the courts. Fewer
0:39:20 > 0:39:23than a quarter of those arrested in the West Midlands have been
0:39:23 > 0:39:27sentenced for crimes. Crimes that shocked us all. Certainly in my
0:39:27 > 0:39:30lifetime I don't think I've been as shocked and ashamed by something in
0:39:30 > 0:39:34this country. Days after the riots, the Conservative MP for Stourbridge,
0:39:34 > 0:39:44Margot James, called on magistrates and judges to err on the side of
0:39:44 > 0:39:45
0:39:45 > 0:39:52severity when dealing with offenders. Do you maintain your
0:39:53 > 0:39:59hardline stand? I was just saying in scenes of incredible, aggressive
0:39:59 > 0:40:01violence, that sentencing should have swayed towards severity.
0:40:01 > 0:40:06Birmingham Magistrates is expecting another influx of riot-related
0:40:06 > 0:40:13cases next week. The MP has kept a keen eye on how the rioters have
0:40:13 > 0:40:17been dealt with. Why should people think they can threaten without
0:40:17 > 0:40:21regard to life or limb and go as a mob to take what is not theirs.
0:40:21 > 0:40:27That is quite wrong and should result in a custodial sentence, in
0:40:28 > 0:40:31my view. She wants to ensure any pressure felt by the courts or
0:40:31 > 0:40:35prisons due to the high volume of offenders doesn't lead to leniency.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38This historic court in Stafford heard its first case in 1798.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42Justice was dispensed from here for nearly two centuries until the last
0:40:42 > 0:40:45case on Thursday July 25 in 1991. Twenty years after it closed, the
0:40:45 > 0:40:48legal system here in the Midlands is facing unprecedented demands -
0:40:48 > 0:40:54313 of those arrested after the riots in this region are still on
0:40:54 > 0:41:00bail while decisions are made over whether to charge them. The prison
0:41:00 > 0:41:03population is already reaching record highs. But with many more
0:41:03 > 0:41:13arrests anticipated, the clamour for heavy sentences is not expected
0:41:13 > 0:41:21
0:41:21 > 0:41:27In a moment I will be talking to some of our guests but let us begin
0:41:27 > 0:41:31with the riots. In view of what many people see as the severity of
0:41:31 > 0:41:36the sentences handed down, how comfortable are you with the
0:41:36 > 0:41:40involvement of politicians? I think people want to see the offenders
0:41:40 > 0:41:46properly punished for the damage they did to the communities. We
0:41:46 > 0:41:53need to respect the independence of the judiciary. It is very important.
0:41:53 > 0:41:58I pay tribute to the magistrates who made a Supreme effort to
0:41:58 > 0:42:05expedite the carrot -- cases quickly. But I do not think it is
0:42:05 > 0:42:11for politicians to interfere with the workings of the judiciary.
0:42:11 > 0:42:16it has been said that there have been tragic offenders also. It is
0:42:16 > 0:42:23hard on someone who, one moment in their lives which they can regret
0:42:23 > 0:42:29for the rest of their Dave's, has a serious criminal record? Many of
0:42:29 > 0:42:34them are repeat offenders and it tells all of us that we need to
0:42:34 > 0:42:39look at precisely how we deal with offenders and how we prevent
0:42:39 > 0:42:44reoffending. That is a challenge to all of us in society because many
0:42:44 > 0:42:50of them were children with parents and families. It is for all of us
0:42:51 > 0:42:56to see what we can do to stop this happening again. Are you
0:42:56 > 0:43:01comfortable with the role politicians have played? We are not
0:43:01 > 0:43:07a police state in this country and we have great communities across
0:43:07 > 0:43:11the West Midlands. To do policing by consent, we have to respect
0:43:11 > 0:43:17other people's property and if people break the law, they should
0:43:17 > 0:43:22expect the full hand of the law. Some senior Tories have compared
0:43:22 > 0:43:29the political leadership outside London, including colleagues of
0:43:30 > 0:43:38yours who chaired areas of the local authorities, and they have
0:43:38 > 0:43:44compared favourably with other areas. I think we have the lead on
0:43:44 > 0:43:51certain projects across the West Midlands. Locally, we are what the
0:43:51 > 0:43:57public elect. High-speed rail now. We spoke about this and there was a
0:43:57 > 0:44:06great consensus, we thought, that a string of your party colleagues and
0:44:06 > 0:44:11local authorities agreed but people are now coming out against it.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15is based on consensus between the main parties about the need for
0:44:15 > 0:44:19investment in the infrastructure. When it comes down to the detail,
0:44:19 > 0:44:24often there Rob problems. It is important to point out that high-
0:44:24 > 0:44:29speed rail is needed to address capacity problems as there is no
0:44:29 > 0:44:38spare capacity on the West Coast Main Line and that holds the West
0:44:38 > 0:44:43Midlands back. It would bring 40,000 jobs to our economy. As a
0:44:43 > 0:44:48constituency MP through whose constituency it goes, I am there to
0:44:48 > 0:44:52help my constituents mitigate the impact when it goes ahead. What do
0:44:52 > 0:44:59you say, as one of the leaders of the authority who came out against
0:44:59 > 0:45:05it? From Staffordshire's point of view, because we looked at the
0:45:05 > 0:45:14effect of Staffordshire also, at the key thing is... But can you
0:45:14 > 0:45:17look at it in isolation? There is certainly an issue about capacity
0:45:17 > 0:45:22on the west coast main line and getting people around the country
0:45:22 > 0:45:26but we have to capture the maximum economic advantage for the West
0:45:26 > 0:45:30Midlands, minimise the environmental dire -- damage and
0:45:30 > 0:45:38make sure that local residents voices are heard because it will
0:45:38 > 0:45:42affect some people quite dramatically. We hear all the
0:45:42 > 0:45:48voices from the opposition. Your side of the argument is being lost,
0:45:48 > 0:45:54isn't it? The government had to remain neutral to the consul --
0:45:54 > 0:45:57during the consultation... Birmingham and Solihull Chambers of
0:45:57 > 0:46:02Commerce have come out and supported this because they know
0:46:02 > 0:46:06the capacity constraints on our rail network adversely affect
0:46:06 > 0:46:12business. People are struggling to pay petrol costs so the question
0:46:12 > 0:46:17for the government is, we have to create more capacity and a Jenny
0:46:18 > 0:46:23time of 31 minutes to Birmingham from London would have an important
0:46:23 > 0:46:33impact. -- Eid journey. Moving on to the keynote speech this
0:46:33 > 0:46:38afternoon. You have a particular message about economic growth for
0:46:38 > 0:46:44rural areas. What will you say? want to support growth in the rural
0:46:44 > 0:46:50economy because part of the reach - - reason we were more severely
0:46:50 > 0:46:55affected during the recession was the imbalance in our economy. So,
0:46:55 > 0:47:00in my department we are looking hard to invest in rural areas.
0:47:00 > 0:47:04there been lots of new buildings going up? You campaign for the
0:47:04 > 0:47:09Meriden gap and now there is a suspicion your party will open the
0:47:09 > 0:47:13floodgates. The most important thing is to make sure rural areas
0:47:13 > 0:47:17are not disadvantaged by a lack of access to the internet or mobile
0:47:17 > 0:47:22phone use so the government is making millions of pounds available
0:47:22 > 0:47:28for rural broad band and change the use of existing buildings. You are
0:47:28 > 0:47:31a farmer in your spare time. What do you make of that? There are
0:47:31 > 0:47:37great opportunities coming out. Super-fast broadband is key to
0:47:37 > 0:47:42opening up the countryside to business is able to work from home
0:47:42 > 0:47:46and the like. The countryside can offer a lot to the economy and the
0:47:46 > 0:47:52economy is our number one priority. If the private sector grows and
0:47:52 > 0:47:58makes profit, they can be taxed and provide services we all wish to see
0:47:58 > 0:48:03for our elderly, children etc. have the ear of the Environment
0:48:03 > 0:48:08Secretary, what would you like to see in the speech? Any opportunity
0:48:08 > 0:48:14to help grow the rural economy is very welcome. Well that is a
0:48:14 > 0:48:24priority. We need to support British farming and sustainability.
0:48:24 > 0:48:25
0:48:25 > 0:48:29Thank you both for being here with So, a summer that will live long in
0:48:29 > 0:48:34the memory in the Midlands for the worst of reasons - riots, looting,
0:48:34 > 0:48:37and the deaths of three young men. And yet, paradoxically, these
0:48:37 > 0:48:39terrible events may have taken David Cameron onto surprisingly
0:48:39 > 0:48:49comfortable political ground by strengthening his arguments in
0:48:49 > 0:48:50
0:48:50 > 0:48:53support of the Big Society to repair "broken Britain". One of his
0:48:53 > 0:48:56formative experiences came during a visit to Balsall Heath in
0:48:56 > 0:49:02Birmingham four years ago, when he stayed overnight with a local
0:49:02 > 0:49:11family. Susana Mendonca has revisited the area to see what
0:49:11 > 0:49:16difference the idea of a Big Meet Abdullah, his wife Shahida,
0:49:16 > 0:49:26mother Safia, and his kids. Four years ago, they had an unusual
0:49:26 > 0:49:28
0:49:28 > 0:49:38house guest. Hello. How are you? David Cameron came here to find out
0:49:38 > 0:49:39
0:49:39 > 0:49:43how Balsall Heath's community has been helping itself. There was a
0:49:44 > 0:49:50problem with drugs and prostitution. The streets were controlled by drug
0:49:50 > 0:49:56dealers. That is what the neighbourhood used to be like until
0:49:56 > 0:50:00residents started patrolling the streets. When David Cameron came
0:50:00 > 0:50:05here he helped clear the car-park up and he found a needle. We were
0:50:05 > 0:50:12trying to encourage him to think about the broken society we are
0:50:13 > 0:50:19living in, we feel, and how it can be mended. Does the idea of the Big
0:50:19 > 0:50:25Society come in? The forum's work got to mention that his party
0:50:25 > 0:50:29speech in -- last year. Local residents were fed up with pimps
0:50:29 > 0:50:34and gangs so they set up street patrols to clear them out and
0:50:34 > 0:50:38turned what was a no-go zone into a desirable place to live. It has
0:50:39 > 0:50:45become a better neighbourhood for one pensioner who gets help after
0:50:45 > 0:50:51having an eye operation. They look after us old people, help us out.
0:50:51 > 0:50:58They not at our door to see if we are all right. But building this
0:50:58 > 0:51:03Big Society idea costs money. The Balshall Heath Forum needs as much
0:51:04 > 0:51:07as �300,000 the year. The forum used to get �60,000 of that from
0:51:07 > 0:51:11Birmingham City Council. Funding has dried up so it's challenge is
0:51:12 > 0:51:16to survive without government cash. It is getting advice from big
0:51:16 > 0:51:21business. The push is to recognise that businesses cannot shy away
0:51:21 > 0:51:24from it. They are a massive part of this community and they have to
0:51:24 > 0:51:27work with the forum. But some volunteers, welcoming the deputy
0:51:27 > 0:51:30leader of the city council this week, worry that businesses won't
0:51:30 > 0:51:33be wiling to give. Shabana who's youth team checked on elderly
0:51:34 > 0:51:41residents during the summer riots, says the Big Society won't work
0:51:41 > 0:51:47without government funding. Communities need to be more active
0:51:47 > 0:51:55and help each other do community work. The community always needs
0:51:55 > 0:52:00that support. There is only so much we can do. Society has never been
0:52:00 > 0:52:05able to exist without the voluntary sector and the face sector making a
0:52:05 > 0:52:10contribution. Statutory authorities cannot deliver everything that
0:52:10 > 0:52:19makes society tick. Back in the House where David Cammie spent his
0:52:19 > 0:52:24first night, I hear how the biz Society is working. He needs to see
0:52:24 > 0:52:30the Big Society in action. Who does his daughter want to see? We would
0:52:30 > 0:52:35like him to bring Florence. They may only have to wait until next
0:52:35 > 0:52:37spring when the Tory conference heads back to Brighton. And BBC WM
0:52:37 > 0:52:40listeners can keep up-to-date with political developments in
0:52:40 > 0:52:44Birmingham and the Black Country with Susana throughout the week.
0:52:44 > 0:52:48Now, it's a safe bet looting and rioting would have no place in the
0:52:48 > 0:52:57local communities envisaged by the MP who has written the book on the
0:52:57 > 0:52:59"Big Society". During the week, I caught up with its author, Jesse
0:52:59 > 0:53:02Norman, the Conservative MP for Hereford and South Herefordshire,
0:53:02 > 0:53:12on the stage of Hereford's Courtyard Theatre, during a break
0:53:12 > 0:53:22
0:53:22 > 0:53:26in a business conference that was If I were to challenge you to write
0:53:26 > 0:53:31another chapter in this book to take account of the summer riots,
0:53:31 > 0:53:38what do you think would be the main principles we could expect to see?
0:53:38 > 0:53:44It was the tremendous sense of lack of purpose and youth unemployment,
0:53:44 > 0:53:49as well as a kind of gang culture. All of those aspects have to be
0:53:49 > 0:53:54brought into play. It would take the same principles we have already
0:53:54 > 0:53:59in play and play them out in the context of the riots with all their
0:53:59 > 0:54:03causes and effects. You say that much of this thinking has its
0:54:03 > 0:54:08origin with people like Edmund Burke and the aftermath of the
0:54:08 > 0:54:12French Revolution. Some of the language after that riots was
0:54:12 > 0:54:17apocalyptic. Do you see a connection with the origins of that
0:54:17 > 0:54:23idea and social difficulties today? Yes, we have the highest level of
0:54:23 > 0:54:31drug abuse in almost every area of Europe. We have high levels of
0:54:31 > 0:54:35teenage pregnancy, high levels of social deprivation in key parts of
0:54:35 > 0:54:41our cities. We have to engage in this. We have to think outside the
0:54:41 > 0:54:47political box and not turn to the state as the only source of support
0:54:47 > 0:54:51for these people. We have to look at ways they can help themselves
0:54:51 > 0:54:56and which government can engage with those institutions that can do
0:54:56 > 0:55:03the best job of people -- putting people back on their feet. Some
0:55:03 > 0:55:08commentators say that There are new people being appointed into jobs in
0:55:08 > 0:55:11lope -- local authorities to come walk the -- co-ordinate the
0:55:11 > 0:55:17activities of the voluntary sector so it is having the opposite
0:55:17 > 0:55:22effect? Yours have people pushing more power down to local
0:55:22 > 0:55:27authorities and institutions. Out of the diversity comes innovation
0:55:27 > 0:55:31and energy. The real question for the Big Society is whether it can
0:55:31 > 0:55:36change the political terms of debate over the next two or three
0:55:36 > 0:55:44elections. What the Labour Party has been saying over the last year
0:55:44 > 0:55:49is moving from hostility to a high degree of embracing the conclusions.
0:55:49 > 0:55:53Part of the debate about the Big Society is that it is not a Big
0:55:53 > 0:55:56Society but a big excuse for cutting public spending.
0:55:56 > 0:56:03Conservative Party has been thinking about these issues and
0:56:03 > 0:56:07talking about them for at least five years. It wasn't a secret that,
0:56:07 > 0:56:10with the level of economic crisis we have been in, measures to curb
0:56:10 > 0:56:15public spending would have to happen. The real question is
0:56:15 > 0:56:19whether it can trigger local energy and release these institutions