:00:48. > :00:54.In the Midlands: the lorry drivers with loads on their minds.
:00:54. > :00:58.The yew is planning height restrictions on HTVs. And what is
:00:58. > :01:08.the connection between a Worcestershire chip shop, a German
:01:08. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :30:44.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1775 seconds
:30:44. > :30:49.hot-dog seller and a European Court Hello from the Midlands. As our MPs
:30:49. > :30:54.prepare for the crucial vote on the European referendum, we also have
:30:54. > :31:01.Europe on our minds. We will have the answer do the link between the
:31:01. > :31:05.German hot-dog seller and a Worcestershire fish and chip shop.
:31:05. > :31:09.Midlands road hauliers are in a tailspin over plans to restrict the
:31:09. > :31:14.height of many of their HGVs the commission says it would make it
:31:14. > :31:18.easier to move goods around Europe if lorries were no taller than four
:31:18. > :31:23.metres. To help us get the measure of this, here with me today,
:31:23. > :31:27.Malcolm Harbour, one of our Conservative MEPs for the West
:31:27. > :31:34.Midlands. Ms Reynolds, the Labour MP for Wolverhampton North East and
:31:34. > :31:40.newly-appointed as the shadow Europe Minister, and might mattress
:31:40. > :31:47.-- Mike Nattrass, UKIP's MEP for the West Midlands.
:31:47. > :31:53.Our transport correspondent has been talking to truckers.
:31:53. > :31:57.Love them or hate them, HGVs are a common sight. Even with greater use
:31:57. > :32:01.of the railways, the majority of the things we make or buy still go
:32:02. > :32:06.by road. Concerns about the impact on the environment means that
:32:06. > :32:12.haulage firms up sympathising with bigger lorries, fewer journeys and
:32:12. > :32:15.less pollution. -- soubrette sizing. Some fans like Birmingham-based
:32:15. > :32:19.Palletline claim that the EU proposals could see the brakes
:32:19. > :32:22.being applied when it comes to going green. It is bureaucracy gone
:32:23. > :32:26.mad. Clearly someone has not thought this through. They are not
:32:27. > :32:31.aware of the problems back European hauliers face and particularly
:32:32. > :32:35.British hauliers face. The EU is considering proposals to restrict
:32:35. > :32:39.the height of lorry trailers to four metres like this one. The
:32:39. > :32:47.reason according to officials is that it will make it easier to move
:32:47. > :32:52.goods around or 27 EU countries. -- or 27. Some countries have low
:32:52. > :32:55.bridges on major routes. Rather than rebuild them, the EU appears
:32:55. > :33:01.to want to change the height of lorries, regardless of where they
:33:01. > :33:05.operate. For the UK, that is a big problem was that according to
:33:05. > :33:08.government figures, 80% of the lorry fleet is over four metres.
:33:08. > :33:11.What it would mean for Palletline as an organisation and other
:33:11. > :33:15.British hauliers is that potentially they would have to run
:33:15. > :33:19.more vehicles, by more vehicles, employ more drivers and there would
:33:19. > :33:23.be twice the number of vehicles on the road. This is what he is
:33:23. > :33:27.talking about. The trailer being unloaded is well over four metres
:33:27. > :33:33.and the goods are being transferred to a trailer that meets the EU's
:33:33. > :33:38.proposals. As you can see, it does not fit so you need a second lorry.
:33:38. > :33:42.Other companies have -- are just as concerned. This is the John Lewis
:33:42. > :33:46.Warehouse in Redditch. Online orders are dispatched from here all
:33:46. > :33:51.over the UK. Much of its fleet consists of double-decker lorries.
:33:51. > :33:54.Here at least there is some good news. The euro appears to have done
:33:54. > :34:00.a last-minute U-turn meaning that regardless of height, they can
:34:00. > :34:06.still run. They form a major part of our environmental strategy. They
:34:06. > :34:10.reduce our carbon dioxide by 25%. They are Keith in that ensuring our
:34:10. > :34:15.environmental impact of our transport fleet is minimised --
:34:15. > :34:19.they are key in ensuring. Under the current proposals, this 4.9 double-
:34:20. > :34:27.deck trailer would be allowed on the roads. But this 4.6 metre
:34:27. > :34:29.single deck trailer would not. Nat Copsey is an expert on all
:34:30. > :34:34.things Europe and despite the confusion, he maintains that it
:34:34. > :34:38.makes sense to harmonise. Harmonisation is what allows the
:34:38. > :34:44.single market to function proper to -- properly. The single market is
:34:44. > :34:48.our largest trading partner. We have to have the same rules and
:34:48. > :34:53.regulations in place across the 27 EU member states otherwise it will
:34:53. > :34:56.not work. The government is not impressed. A statement from the
:34:56. > :35:00.Department of Transport says, we share the concerns of the UK
:35:00. > :35:04.haulage industry about the European Commission's proposals. It adds
:35:04. > :35:11.that it will press the Commission to maintain the existing right of
:35:11. > :35:15.member states to set the permitted height of lorries.
:35:15. > :35:20.Already, several haulage firms have gone out of business because of the
:35:20. > :35:24.recession. There is our best that any new EU rules could see even
:35:24. > :35:33.more going the same way -- there is now the rest.
:35:33. > :35:36.Confused? Me too. I can see that Mike Nattrass is itching to get on
:35:36. > :35:41.it. I will come first to the two of you who want Britain to stay in the
:35:41. > :35:49.European Union forever, as far as we can see. Isn't this exactly the
:35:49. > :35:54.sort of issue that makes Europe such a hard sell? It does look like
:35:54. > :35:58.it is making regulation a fetish. Part of the problem is that your
:35:58. > :36:02.report, I'm afraid, is very misleading. First of all, we are
:36:02. > :36:06.aware of the problem. I have been working on it for months. The
:36:06. > :36:11.commission is very much aware of the problems. What is the problem?
:36:11. > :36:14.First of all, what your report did not say is that 22 out of 27
:36:14. > :36:18.countries already do not allow trucks of more than four metres to
:36:18. > :36:25.go on their roads. That is there now. That will continue. If the
:36:25. > :36:32.issue is that member states, including Britain, can allow larger
:36:32. > :36:37.trucks to operate. We have already had the double Decker trailers
:36:37. > :36:40.which are significantly higher and there is no question but a dark and
:36:40. > :36:44.I would be astonished if the commission also did not make a
:36:44. > :36:49.concession for the normal trailers. They are also very good green
:36:49. > :36:59.reasons. If you look on the roads, streamlined the trailers are saving
:36:59. > :37:02.CO2. I think you have not actually reported the facts. Why is it that
:37:02. > :37:08.so many including some in your constituency are so anxious about
:37:08. > :37:12.it? First day, let me say, I am a pro European, I believe in the
:37:12. > :37:17.benefits of our membership of the European Union and I believe in the
:37:17. > :37:21.benefits of the biggest single market in the world. His commission
:37:21. > :37:26.proposals are not to get final. Because we have a strong voice in
:37:26. > :37:31.Europe, we are able to influence these. That is very important. I do
:37:31. > :37:34.not think that the commission should, when it comes to the
:37:34. > :37:36.European Parliament and the Council of Ministers, I do not think they
:37:37. > :37:41.should decide to restrict the height of our hauliers. I think
:37:41. > :37:45.that will be what happens in the end. Mike Nattrass. 80% of the
:37:45. > :37:51.trailer fleet would be out of order on this regulation if imposed. A I
:37:51. > :37:56.think it should be the result of our government and what they need
:37:56. > :38:00.to tell us and our roads are capable of taking traffic and very
:38:00. > :38:03.little to do with Europe. If these traders have to go into Europe,
:38:03. > :38:07.obviously they have to abide by the rules of any of the individual
:38:07. > :38:12.countries. But we should not be told to restrict the height of our
:38:12. > :38:16.vehicles because it is a green issues. You are saying the result
:38:16. > :38:23.would be more lorries, each of them a bit smaller and therefore more
:38:23. > :38:26.traffic was sacked more Denny's, lorries. -- more journeys. The
:38:26. > :38:31.distinction between using the trucks on the road and the
:38:31. > :38:35.technical regulations... If you make trailers, all the braking
:38:35. > :38:38.systems and construction is common so you can make a 40 ft trailer
:38:38. > :38:42.anywhere in Europe and get it approved locally and it can run
:38:42. > :38:45.anywhere. That is an important part of the single market if you are
:38:45. > :38:50.manufacturer in trailers. Also, other countries have the same
:38:50. > :38:54.issues as we do. In Sweden, they run bigger trucks because they have
:38:54. > :38:57.longer open highways. This is perfectly normal and there is no
:38:57. > :39:03.reason at all why we cannot get the permission to set it up and frankly
:39:03. > :39:07.we have been working on it for a long time. It does seem to be a
:39:07. > :39:11.more prescription for more lorries, more congestion. I think we can win
:39:11. > :39:15.the argument on this one. It is not clear that these are the final
:39:15. > :39:18.Commission proposals. I feel it is a bit dramatic to say that these
:39:18. > :39:21.are already the proposals and these are going to have this kind of
:39:21. > :39:27.implication when we do not even know what the commission are going
:39:27. > :39:31.to propose. Nat Copsey says that you should not see the issue in
:39:31. > :39:36.isolation, it is part of a broader harmonisation to make the single
:39:36. > :39:40.market work. It is none of their business. They should not be
:39:40. > :39:44.discussing the height of trailers within the UK. But they have to run
:39:44. > :39:51.across Europe. Our trailers can change. We do not have to run those
:39:51. > :39:55.trailers into Europe. The single market, we are looking to make
:39:55. > :39:59.things easier for manufacturers and also for exporters. But that does
:39:59. > :40:03.not mean to say that we have to apply every single role within our
:40:03. > :40:06.own roads. We have in some cases different speed limits, for example.
:40:07. > :40:11.The government is putting up speed limits on motorways where different
:40:11. > :40:15.speed limits... We have different road signs, we have different
:40:15. > :40:22.alcohol limits, different driving licence regulations. This is the
:40:22. > :40:26.same thing. If Labour from a government, we do not have you have
:40:26. > :40:30.moved on to something less double- ended did tell than this? I do not.
:40:30. > :40:35.There is an important issue. In some cases it, it is very important
:40:35. > :40:38.to have an effective single market and that they are roars across the
:40:38. > :40:43.27 member states. In other cases, it is not important for that to
:40:43. > :40:47.happen and it is no better handled at a member state level. This is a
:40:47. > :40:54.case in point. I do not think that this will be hopefully the
:40:55. > :40:58.commission's final proposals. I am worried that we are worrying about
:40:58. > :41:03.this too early. You can choose any product that you like. You can
:41:03. > :41:06.choose manhole covers and you can find that the French hold -- friend
:41:06. > :41:12.specification is being used of manhole covers which is putting
:41:12. > :41:19.business that in why is it that every time I want to speak, Malcolm
:41:19. > :41:23.Harbour is coming in. I never speak when you are speaking. There is
:41:23. > :41:33.plenty of mileage left in this but at this point, we have to go. Thank
:41:33. > :41:35.
:41:35. > :41:39.you. At last, the answer to the puzzle linking a Worcestershire
:41:39. > :41:44.fish and chip shop with a German hot-dog seller who took a test case
:41:44. > :41:48.to the European Court of Justice. The result was that VAT had to be
:41:48. > :41:51.cut on hot takeaway food throughout the land of the Frankfurter and the
:41:52. > :41:56.hamburger. Now the Worcestershire chip-shop is hoping to emulate his
:41:56. > :42:01.German counterpart because VAT was after all originally introduced as
:42:01. > :42:11.a European harmonisation tax. Ben Sidwell reports now from Hannover
:42:11. > :42:11.
:42:11. > :42:19.and Hagley. Fish and chips, they are about as British as you can get.
:42:19. > :42:26.Our place -- Our Plaice is one of the best trip and fish shops in the
:42:26. > :42:31.country. Now they have their sights set on Europe. Cod and chips please.
:42:31. > :42:36.There are over 10,000 fish and chip shops in the UK but you may not be
:42:36. > :42:39.aware that every what time you buy it food from one you are paying VAT
:42:40. > :42:49.on it. That could all be about to change banks do a sausage seller
:42:50. > :42:54.
:42:54. > :42:58.He in at Hannover, like the rest of Germany, the sausage is big
:42:58. > :43:03.business. It is one of the most popular takeaway foods. So when one
:43:03. > :43:11.sausage seller decided to challenge the government over tax laws, it
:43:11. > :43:14.became very big news. The sausage seller who goes by the name of
:43:14. > :43:19.Manfred Bog claimed that he supplied simple easily prepared
:43:19. > :43:24.food. And unlike a restaurant, did not offer any service. Therefore he
:43:24. > :43:27.should not pay VAT, he said. On Mars 10th this year, the European
:43:27. > :43:37.Court of Justice found in favour of Manfred Bog and three other similar
:43:37. > :43:41.
:43:41. > :43:51.cases. It was a ruling that could Here in England, our sausages are
:43:51. > :43:58.much bigger. But this is not a row about size. It is all about money.
:43:58. > :44:03.Wrong altogether. No food should have VAT on it. All countries
:44:03. > :44:09.should be treated the same way. really is unfair. We want a level
:44:09. > :44:11.playing field for our members. May, Gregg Howard was elected as
:44:11. > :44:15.President of National Federation of Fish Friers, representing every
:44:15. > :44:20.fish and chip shop in the country. They have now appointed a by --
:44:20. > :44:24.advisers to fight to the VAT battle. It is a matter for the courts.
:44:24. > :44:28.There are some complex legal arguments in play here and it is
:44:29. > :44:32.for the courts to decide. I think it is better than a 5050 chance
:44:32. > :44:40.that some of these principles and indeed other principles should
:44:40. > :44:44.apply to the UK zero rate. As we are all part of the European Union,
:44:44. > :44:49.does it follow that rules in place in Germany should be applied it to
:44:50. > :44:53.the UK? The tax man here does not think so. Her Majesty's Revenue and
:44:53. > :44:57.Customs say, the European Court of Justice judgment has no
:44:58. > :45:02.implications for the United Kingdom. It should be across the board. If
:45:02. > :45:09.it is good enough for Hannover, it is good enough of Hagley. It should
:45:09. > :45:11.be exactly the same across Europe. We are all Europeans. If the fish
:45:11. > :45:15.and chip shop industry win their case, other takeaways and could
:45:15. > :45:21.soon follow. Whether that means cheaper food for us, that remains
:45:21. > :45:26.to be seen. That is one that sausage and chips and one of fish
:45:26. > :45:31.and chips. Do you want to VAT on those?
:45:31. > :45:36.That really is a question, isn't it! Ben Sidwell has found his true
:45:36. > :45:41.calling on life. Mike Nattrass, a clear example where most people
:45:41. > :45:48.would see tax harmonisation as a good thing. In Yorkshire, the best
:45:48. > :45:55.fish and chips you can buy, in Whitby. UKIP are supporting tax
:45:55. > :45:59.harmonisation? Certainly not. VAT is a European tax. We regret I have
:45:59. > :46:04.to speak about harmonisation in Parliament. There is a prospect of
:46:04. > :46:08.harmonisation of VAT across Europe. That is heavily guarded against by
:46:08. > :46:13.a number of member states including the UK. We believe that we should
:46:13. > :46:18.have control of our own taxation. I strongly believe that we should do
:46:18. > :46:25.that. But if you try to reduce VAT, the European Commission get excited
:46:25. > :46:30.because they are going to cut. So, if for example the Labour
:46:30. > :46:34.government want to zero rate fuel, gas or electricity, they cannot.
:46:34. > :46:39.Malcolm Harbour, you were shaking your head through much of that.
:46:39. > :46:46.What is your concern? First of all, VAT is a comment type of taxation
:46:46. > :46:56.that we have agreed to. Member states, have different rates.
:46:56. > :46:56.
:46:56. > :47:00.have a zero rate and Germany has a 5%. The show hearers -- Series... I
:47:00. > :47:03.think it is most unlikely that it will change in Germany. That is
:47:03. > :47:07.certainly the impression they have in Germany. I do not think so. They
:47:07. > :47:13.must have read the judgment. It came up from the lower courts
:47:14. > :47:19.because Manfred Bog said in a VAT plane which said that this is food
:47:19. > :47:24.and where people eat at my school, I charge VAT, which is something
:47:24. > :47:26.that goes on with cold food here. It has been referred back to the
:47:26. > :47:32.court to make a judgment. The judgment does not actually support
:47:32. > :47:36.his case. The whole issue is what is food and what is a service. If
:47:36. > :47:46.you look in the UK rules on VAT, they are very clear. If you heard
:47:46. > :47:46.
:47:46. > :47:51.hot food, heating is delivering a service. Before week loom on to the
:47:51. > :47:55.other issues, what do you think Emma Reynolds? I can see that the
:47:55. > :47:58.fish fryers are looking at the German hot dog sellers and thinking,
:47:58. > :48:03.if they have managed to win it, if they do managed to win it, is in
:48:03. > :48:07.not quite similar, serving a sausage in a square in Germany and
:48:07. > :48:11.providing fish and chips in a chip shop in Hagley? This is much more
:48:11. > :48:16.of a product than a service. I can see where they are coming from. We
:48:16. > :48:23.do not have total harmonisation of VAT. We have got to bear that in
:48:23. > :48:27.mind. Quick word about the referendum vote which is looming.
:48:27. > :48:34.Mike Nattrass, yew and the Independent MEP are the driving
:48:34. > :48:38.forces between the British and. delivered it to Number 10 a month
:48:38. > :48:42.ago and it is now going to be debated. We got 14 MPs saying at
:48:42. > :48:47.that time that they would speak to it when it got behind the chair.
:48:47. > :48:51.Now it has caused a lot of problems. Reopening all of the traditional
:48:51. > :48:55.divisions within the Tory party. The European nightmares under way
:48:55. > :48:59.again. I do not think that is true at all. David Cameron is right to
:48:59. > :49:02.say that why should we have a referendum now? They are big issues
:49:02. > :49:06.to be sorted out and there are three questions on the ballot paper,
:49:06. > :49:09.including the idea of having a change relationship based on trade
:49:09. > :49:13.and corporations. Nobody knows what that means. I do not believe we
:49:13. > :49:17.should go forward without a referendum without a policy behind
:49:17. > :49:20.it. If it is a diversion. We have big problems to sort out now and
:49:20. > :49:25.big opportunities within the European market to help growth and
:49:25. > :49:31.recovery and we should be focusing on that. And a Reynolds, to pursue
:49:31. > :49:35.at the German theatre -- theme. I am sure you feel an element of
:49:35. > :49:40.schadenfreude. You have rebels on Labour's benches as well. You are
:49:40. > :49:43.not exactly united on this one either. The vast majority of our
:49:43. > :49:47.parliamentary party Labour MPs will vote against the question of a
:49:47. > :49:51.referendum tomorrow. The truth is that David Cameron, when he was in
:49:51. > :49:54.opposition, he should have been saying what he is now saying in
:49:54. > :49:58.government that our membership of the European Union is in our
:49:58. > :50:02.national interest. If he had not been quite so opportunistic,
:50:02. > :50:08.calling his MEPs out of the centre- right grouping in the European
:50:08. > :50:12.Parliament, perhaps he would not be facing he is tomorrow. I agree.
:50:12. > :50:17.agree says Mike Nattrass. We will end there. We are going to have to
:50:17. > :50:23.leave it. A fascinating moment in politics. Thank you all very much
:50:23. > :50:27.for being with us. That is about it from us here in