:00:48. > :00:51.And here in the West, in a region packed with members of the royal
:00:51. > :00:58.family, should they be feeling the pinch Arshad their carriages a
:00:58. > :01:08.gilded with the finest old as one MP suggests? We will be speaking to
:01:08. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :40:32.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2363 seconds
:40:32. > :40:38.a Lib Dem and a Republican. Join us Good morning. Do not panic, we will
:40:38. > :40:42.be back in the autumn. On the packed programme Today: How about
:40:42. > :40:47.this far a way to travel? But should be be spending as much on
:40:47. > :40:50.the royal family? Whenever MPs think so. When I see the Coronation
:40:50. > :40:58.coach being pulled through the streets of London, I want to see it
:40:58. > :41:02.being pulled by the finest horses money can buy. And when -- who
:41:02. > :41:08.makes the decisions when the money is Cup?
:41:08. > :41:12.We welcome to the Politics Show, here in the West. Perhaps I should
:41:12. > :41:16.say a royal welcome because we're discussing the monarchy. We have
:41:16. > :41:20.plenty of rials to have chosen to live here in the West Country, but
:41:20. > :41:28.in this age of austerity, should they face the economic pain like
:41:28. > :41:33.the rest of us. I am joined by a local MP and a Republican.
:41:33. > :41:38.The glorious pomp and circumstance of our monarch and the royal family.
:41:38. > :41:42.Conveyed here through the streets in horse-drawn carriage during the
:41:42. > :41:47.Queen's Golden Jubilee. But even then - like they are not immune to
:41:47. > :41:54.the cuts. MPs are back changes to the way we find them, cutting the
:41:54. > :41:57.Bill by 9% by 2015. Most MPs back them. When I see the Coronation
:41:57. > :42:02.coach being pulled through the streets of London, I want to see
:42:02. > :42:06.are being killed by the finest horses money can buy. I want to see
:42:06. > :42:12.a gilded by the finest gold that can be bought. I want our Majesty
:42:12. > :42:16.to have the finest window that can be funded by Members of Parliament.
:42:16. > :42:20.That is the status of monarchy that we want and they urge the
:42:20. > :42:23.Chancellor even end this time of austerity when I know we are all in
:42:23. > :42:29.it together and I know the opposition spent all the money and
:42:29. > :42:35.the Max doubt the credit card and all that. But I think we should
:42:35. > :42:41.look after Her Majesty. Steering staff -- stirring stuff but not
:42:41. > :42:51.enough on this occasion. MPs debated as demonstrators protested
:42:51. > :43:01.about pension cuts. The plan has got cross-party support.
:43:01. > :43:02.
:43:03. > :43:07.current financing changes made clear we welcome the opportunity to
:43:07. > :43:11.discuss the Nov - minute drive which we feel will be better
:43:11. > :43:15.equipped to meet the royal household needs today. We will
:43:16. > :43:20.support the arrangements. But the MP for North the Somerset does not
:43:20. > :43:23.give up easily. For him, this is about more than the money.
:43:23. > :43:30.Crown Estate are this extraordinary link with our history which makes
:43:30. > :43:36.us the country that we are. When the attack that and we say we want
:43:36. > :43:46.a good value monarchy, it makes Her Majesty's sound like something to
:43:46. > :43:47.
:43:47. > :43:52.be got from the shelf at Tesco's. - - to be bought from. Perhaps this
:43:52. > :43:59.is more what he had in mind. It is high end and more expensive than
:43:59. > :44:04.Tesco's. It is Prince Charles's ferry won't shop. The heart of the
:44:04. > :44:06.royal family's presents in the West Country. So it seemed like a good
:44:06. > :44:14.place to ask people what they thought of the royal family's
:44:14. > :44:18.finances. I think some of the minor royals could be given a bit. But
:44:18. > :44:24.the major ones at more than earn their keep. I would not want to put
:44:24. > :44:29.the price up too much for what we pay for them. There is an awful lot
:44:29. > :44:34.that they do for that money. think I would abolish them. I am a
:44:34. > :44:43.Republican, I'm not a subject I am a citizen. So we should not be
:44:43. > :44:49.paying any money? I agree with that, yes. Have you records -- a view
:44:49. > :44:54.that is echoed. We should have control of thumb. They should be
:44:54. > :45:04.taken under public ownership. Then cut -- ordinary people could decide
:45:04. > :45:05.
:45:05. > :45:09.how to use them. The Royals do not mind opening hospitals and so on,
:45:09. > :45:14.how about less use their money so they stay open into them public.
:45:14. > :45:18.is unlikely MPs would vote that through. We can expect more of this
:45:18. > :45:26.next year with the Diamond Jubilee. Perhaps though on a slightly
:45:26. > :45:34.tighter budget. The Lib Dem MP Martin is with us. I
:45:34. > :45:40.am joined by the philosopher. You heard you coalition colleagues say
:45:40. > :45:46.the finest horses, the find is gold. No expense should be spared. Do you
:45:46. > :45:56.agree with them? I think some expense has to be spared. This is
:45:56. > :45:57.
:45:57. > :46:03.the time of austerity. Yes but, if you have a monarchy are any kind of
:46:03. > :46:09.head of state, there are similar amounts of money spent on the
:46:09. > :46:15.chairman presidency on Republican presidencies around the world.
:46:15. > :46:20.it money well spent? It is a rotten time to be a Republican. The huge
:46:20. > :46:25.success of the Royal Wedding. The royal couple been greeted in Canada
:46:25. > :46:31.like the Beatles. It may not be popular. The argument has to be one.
:46:31. > :46:34.It is down to finances. People do the finances in such different ways.
:46:34. > :46:43.They should not on the properties and it states that they have.
:46:43. > :46:47.Estimates that they have. There are all shores were Crown Estates.
:46:47. > :46:52.then go to the estate and they get an allowance. We should not be
:46:52. > :47:02.relying on these informal meals, we need a settlement. If we are going
:47:02. > :47:02.
:47:03. > :47:11.to have a monarchy, we have to work things out so it is an economic
:47:11. > :47:20.model. They do ceremonial duties and no more. They have not had a
:47:20. > :47:24.soulless -- soul on a share of the Crown Estates. The expense that you
:47:24. > :47:34.have described as demarcate the arrangement, the whole reason we
:47:34. > :47:34.
:47:34. > :47:38.were debating it, is because we are debating it. We are modernising the
:47:38. > :47:42.monarchy. That is appropriate and proper and will be kept under
:47:42. > :47:47.proper financial controls. You have to remember there is a bit of magic
:47:47. > :47:54.about monarchy. It is difficult to put a price so much. Do you except
:47:54. > :48:01.that the monarchy is popular and enduring? As a philosopher, can you
:48:01. > :48:05.-- have you worked out why that is? Traditions have a hold on people.
:48:05. > :48:15.Why do you not embrace it? always have to despite which
:48:15. > :48:17.
:48:17. > :48:22.aspects of tradition we keep hold of an leave. When we talk about the
:48:22. > :48:27.expenses, this is a bit of a red herring. It is not about working
:48:27. > :48:32.out what is best value for the nation. There is a principle about
:48:32. > :48:35.who has that the status of head of state which comes with
:48:35. > :48:41.constitutional powers and roles. There is a danger we are distracted
:48:41. > :48:48.about the balance sheet here. If that was the most important thing.
:48:48. > :48:51.Les Stocker about the principle. On the job of the King's head, the
:48:51. > :48:57.monarchy were here on they will of the people. That is a long-
:48:57. > :49:07.established tradition. We have a monarchy because we want a monarchy.
:49:07. > :49:09.
:49:09. > :49:13.It is a very happy arrangement. That is a point. The public said no
:49:13. > :49:21.way is this going to happen. That could happen with the monarchy, but
:49:21. > :49:27.it has not happened. This is where popularity is a bad argument.
:49:27. > :49:32.reigns by consent. That is not to say people think she has done a bad
:49:32. > :49:38.job. Too often people allow their emotions to get in the way. It
:49:38. > :49:42.should not be about that. We might get a mad monarch in the future. In
:49:42. > :49:47.that case we would fire them very quickly. That is why I'm not too
:49:47. > :49:52.bothered. I do not think we should not have one. If we did decide, if
:49:52. > :49:57.the collective rule where to get rid of it, I won that is to be made.
:49:57. > :50:05.Sometimes people get too carried away that yes, they like the
:50:05. > :50:08.pageantry and that that they cannot divorce that. There are situations
:50:08. > :50:13.through the hung Parliament where the monarch has to make decisions.
:50:13. > :50:17.I know they are guided and these are trivial, we do not want to wait
:50:17. > :50:21.away have a crisis when this could be important before we address the
:50:21. > :50:26.issues. Back to the money side, people who go to Buckingham Palace
:50:26. > :50:31.will see the place a shabby. It has not been refitted from -- since
:50:31. > :50:40.1952. Is there an argument that we're keeping the monarchy to short
:50:40. > :50:44.of cash? The monarchy has some resources. Buckingham Palace has a
:50:44. > :50:48.difficult arrangement. It is the place where the family lived for
:50:48. > :50:52.some of the time but it is also a public building and part of the
:50:52. > :50:55.state in a different way. You just have to reach a comfortable
:50:55. > :51:00.arrangement. That is partly what the new sovereign grant is going to
:51:01. > :51:07.be about. It is going to be of her profession well as some and
:51:07. > :51:17.transparency but keeping it in the style that we want to keep pet.
:51:17. > :51:23.
:51:23. > :51:27.In the Oldie days, the monarchy used to run the country now the
:51:27. > :51:31.Parliament runs the country. But does it? Increasingly it seems
:51:31. > :51:34.judges are having a say and overturning their decisions.
:51:34. > :51:38.Gloucestershire County Council has been told by the courts to think
:51:38. > :51:41.again about plans to cut its library services. Here is Paul
:51:41. > :51:46.Barltrop. It is the clash between politicians
:51:46. > :51:56.and judges, councils and courts. There have been controversial
:51:56. > :51:57.
:51:57. > :52:01.national occasions like the Supreme Court decision. The instigators are
:52:01. > :52:05.ordinary folk. These women went to court after months of campaigning
:52:05. > :52:09.to save libraries. They had protested and gather petitions but
:52:09. > :52:14.had no success and will be torn to the lot. Last month a judge ordered
:52:14. > :52:20.a halt to the cuts. Last month they were shrunk chord with the
:52:20. > :52:25.injunction renewed and the fuel a judicial review ordered. This case
:52:25. > :52:30.the show not only Gloucestershire County Council, the way they need
:52:30. > :52:35.to exercise their discretions. The court has recognised today that
:52:35. > :52:39.there is a very real possibility that Gloucestershire County
:52:39. > :52:43.Council's actions in relation to libraries were a cut today, too
:52:43. > :52:50.fast and without regard to the vulnerable. There are many such
:52:50. > :52:54.challenges. This is the first to get so far. We have had such
:52:54. > :53:04.support across the country. Libraries are facing unprecedented
:53:04. > :53:07.
:53:07. > :53:13.threat. People will be watching this case closely and it could be
:53:13. > :53:21.used in other places. Lawyer's are facing similar challenges in
:53:21. > :53:25.Somerset. They are increasing. There is a growing realisation that
:53:26. > :53:30.the law can assist in cases like these and people approach lawyers
:53:30. > :53:39.to see whether decisions being made by publican authorities, say in
:53:39. > :53:45.relation to the cuts, and comply with the loss. The quality Isac
:53:45. > :53:55.2010 updated laws on race relations and disability discrimination. --
:53:55. > :53:55.
:53:55. > :53:59.the equality law. It all puts more pressure on the
:53:59. > :54:06.leader of Gloucestershire County Council who was openly vexed as the
:54:06. > :54:10.face the Med - right media after the court case. Those were
:54:10. > :54:15.adamantly opposed to the cuts. They are willing to take us to court.
:54:15. > :54:20.That is frustrating because at the end of the day my local residents
:54:20. > :54:27.say to me, we elected due to make decisions and get on. Yet we seem
:54:27. > :54:34.to have judges and lawyers trying to prevent the democratic process.
:54:34. > :54:38.The reality is those savings can only goal from only one other place,
:54:38. > :54:42.that his social care. They are the most vulnerable people enter county
:54:42. > :54:50.who rely on the services. Gloucestershire, almost nowhere is
:54:50. > :54:54.immune to the cuts. This came as a shock to the County Council. Going
:54:54. > :54:57.to the cause is expensive and not good publicity. So they made a
:54:57. > :55:02.dramatic U-turn regarding the future of this place. This place
:55:02. > :55:06.which helps people with disabilities had been due to close.
:55:06. > :55:11.The council granted are in temporary reprieve. 21 disabled
:55:11. > :55:17.adults rely on the centre, among them Gary. He said what will happen
:55:17. > :55:21.to us of the unit shuts. brother has campaigned hard to stop
:55:21. > :55:26.the closure and with specialist lawyers, they have been preparing a
:55:26. > :55:30.challenge. He fears - right he feels sure the council would have
:55:31. > :55:36.lost. We felt our case was strong and the fundamental here is that at
:55:36. > :55:41.the time of cutbacks, it does not excuse the County Council to
:55:41. > :55:51.trample all For the rights of disabled people. They have rights
:55:51. > :55:56.and the County Council has made a duty to disabled people full -- no
:55:56. > :56:01.matter what the financial situation. MPs have already tackled one
:56:02. > :56:05.controversial case, rushing through legislation to get through the
:56:05. > :56:08.Supreme Court decision. They might find themselves under pressure to
:56:08. > :56:15.take on other troubling court rulings.
:56:15. > :56:19.There is much more from poll on his blog. Martin Horwood is with me.
:56:19. > :56:24.Are the judges getting too big for their boots? No, I do not think
:56:24. > :56:27.they are. I think it is right that ordinary citizens should field to
:56:27. > :56:30.challenge politicians who are not sticking to the laws that are being
:56:30. > :56:35.made by politicians originally. I think the case in Gloucestershire
:56:35. > :56:42.arose because Gloucestershire County Council did not follow the
:56:42. > :56:48.law. They did not consult properly, they did not take a count of a
:56:48. > :56:51.equality, the impact on the poorer sections of the population. You may
:56:52. > :56:56.or may not be right. They are accountable. With the voters the
:56:56. > :57:01.side in that county that they messed up, they can be booted out.
:57:01. > :57:06.Being accountable does not pay you above the law. We establish that
:57:07. > :57:10.during the expenses scandal. People have to be accountable to the
:57:10. > :57:16.electorate. But in the meantime they have to stick to the loch,
:57:16. > :57:26.they cannot be above the loch any more than any order member of the
:57:26. > :57:30.public. -- above the law. No one voted for the judges? No, but the
:57:30. > :57:40.loss that they were enforcing were passed by politicians that were
:57:40. > :57:41.
:57:41. > :57:44.elected. The elected politicians decided was that of local
:57:44. > :57:50.authorities take decisions like this, they have to have proper
:57:50. > :57:57.regard to the library sacked. They have to do a proper equalities
:57:57. > :57:59.impact assessment. They have to look at the need that the most
:57:59. > :58:03.vulnerable people in my constituency make of it and they
:58:03. > :58:08.have to consult properly before they take these decisions. They
:58:08. > :58:13.seem to have fallen foul of all of these. The lawyer as a captain work
:58:13. > :58:23.and the councils have to pay for the costs. They get further in the
:58:23. > :58:25.
:58:25. > :58:30.red. They have to follow proper process. Do you detect there is
:58:30. > :58:40.some public concern about what the judges are doing, in particular
:58:40. > :58:45.with emigration and public -- human rights? These seem to be about
:58:45. > :58:49.these issues. Sometimes you have to look get the details of the keys to
:58:49. > :58:53.know if it was right or wrong. People are now free to dismiss the
:58:53. > :58:57.rights of human rights until it happens to be their own leisure
:58:57. > :59:01.challenged and then they think they are important. It is important that
:59:01. > :59:05.the rights of individuals within the legal system and the framework
:59:05. > :59:09.of law are safeguarded in our society. If you just have
:59:09. > :59:13.politicians playing to the gallery all the time and doing what is
:59:13. > :59:19.popular in the short-term, you could end up with bad decisions.
:59:19. > :59:22.Thank you very much for joining us. Before we go, Liam Fox maybe used
:59:22. > :59:27.to worrying about the wars in Afghanistan and Libya but he is
:59:27. > :59:37.still a West Country politician at heart. He is was some constituents
:59:37. > :59:39.
:59:39. > :59:42.waging war on speeding motorists. We have all got a responsibility to
:59:42. > :59:50.the community in which we love to try and sort out our problems at
:59:50. > :59:59.the local level. -- in which we live. It must be strange, Libya
:59:59. > :00:05.yesterday, Afghanistan last weekend. This weekend Cleveland. It was warm
:00:05. > :00:11.her in Afghanistan. It is a lot cooler standing in Clevedon today.
:00:11. > :00:18.It is all part of what I'd do. is it from the US for this week and