:00:49. > :00:52.Here at, or we look ahead to tomorrow's Hillsborough debate in
:00:52. > :01:02.Parliament. Should cabinet discussions about the disaster be
:01:02. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :25:58.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1495 seconds
:25:58. > :26:02.made public? And is this the age of Coming up: As Parliament prepares
:26:02. > :26:10.to debate the Hillsborough disaster tomorrow, we ask whether Margaret
:26:11. > :26:14.Thatcher's cabinet minutes in the aftermath will be published. And
:26:14. > :26:18.what will the high-speed train link do for us? With an estimated cost
:26:18. > :26:27.of more than �1,000 per household, we look at claims that existing
:26:27. > :26:31.rail services will suffer. It has been described as a victory for
:26:31. > :26:35.people power. Almost 140,000 people signed an online petition calling
:26:36. > :26:41.for the release of Cabinet papers relating to the Hillsborough
:26:41. > :26:46.disaster in 1989. The success of the campaign has triggered a debate
:26:46. > :26:49.in the House of Commons, which will take place tomorrow. 22 years on,
:26:49. > :26:53.MPs will discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragedy at
:26:53. > :27:03.Sheffield Wednesday's ground and the response from Margaret
:27:03. > :27:12.
:27:12. > :27:18.Thatcher's government in the April 15th, 1989. A day to remember
:27:18. > :27:24.it for all the wrong reasons. 96 fans, at all and Jong, were crushed
:27:24. > :27:32.to death right in front of the TV cameras. Police and ambulance
:27:32. > :27:37.services were engulfed and left helpless. -- bald and Jong up.
:27:37. > :27:43.tragedy that took place and those that died. Thousands have been left
:27:43. > :27:47.grieving since that day. I think things had to change. This man was
:27:47. > :27:51.the Sheffield Central Labour MP at the time. His worst memories are of
:27:51. > :27:55.visiting the ground early the next morning. I have seen these barriers
:27:56. > :28:00.there were on the terraces just bent. You asked the Engineer what
:28:00. > :28:06.it would have taken to do it and he said nearly half a ton. Human
:28:06. > :28:08.bodies had been pinned on that and pushed and crushed and had pushed
:28:08. > :28:16.that Bath forward. Margaret Thatcher, the Prime Minister,
:28:16. > :28:21.turned up. It was horrendous. Margaret Thatcher's visit started
:28:21. > :28:24.what has become a 22 year mystery. What exactly did she and the
:28:24. > :28:31.Cabinet hear about the causes of the disaster? Was at police crowd
:28:31. > :28:38.control mistakes, runs' behaviour or poor grand design? -- fan's
:28:38. > :28:41.behaviour. Cabinet papers have been left sealed ever since. But that
:28:41. > :28:48.could change because of this petition calling for all government
:28:48. > :28:54.documents relating to Hillsborough to be released. It had thousands of
:28:54. > :28:59.signatures, and the total climbed to over 139,000. It has triggered a
:28:59. > :29:02.debate in Parliament. It has taken the fight and the family's to
:29:02. > :29:05.battle for 22 years to get to this stage and this will be the first
:29:05. > :29:13.debate on Hillsborough in the Chamber of the House of Commons and
:29:13. > :29:18.it is the first want bad results from the fact that we got 100,000
:29:18. > :29:25.people or more signing the petition in a couple of weeks. I think that
:29:25. > :29:28.governments of all colours should have acted a lot sooner. There has
:29:28. > :29:35.already been a major judicial inquiry which brought about a
:29:35. > :29:38.report. The result was saved for all-seater stadiums like the one
:29:39. > :29:44.hearing Doncaster. But standing and overcrowding has never been
:29:44. > :29:47.entirely accepted as the whole story by France. There is a depth
:29:47. > :29:55.of feeling in this country about the tragedy and a lot of supporters
:29:55. > :29:59.are still upset and concerned about the effect it has had on football.
:29:59. > :30:04.To see it put to bed and discover the reasons why that tragedy
:30:04. > :30:09.occurred is the right thing to do. We are here we are, having a debate,
:30:09. > :30:13.in 2011, about those papers. Why has it taken so long? I have been
:30:13. > :30:18.in government for 10 years but I can't answer that question. The
:30:18. > :30:22.Secretary of State and Andy Burnham have been campaigning. Let's hope
:30:22. > :30:27.that this will be the last chapter of releasing that information. If
:30:27. > :30:32.it is, it will satisfy a lot of people. I see no downside to it and
:30:32. > :30:36.I think it will help the families and will say that we need to keep
:30:36. > :30:41.football saved. The coalition government, too, has not been keen
:30:41. > :30:44.on releasing the papers. It challenged a recent BBC Freedom of
:30:44. > :30:48.Information Act request. But with a debate looming, it now says there
:30:48. > :30:52.will be made available to a panel that has been re-examining the
:30:52. > :30:56.disaster for the past two years. The victims' monument at
:30:56. > :31:02.Hillsborough declares they will never walk alone. In this
:31:02. > :31:07.demonstration of fan power, that is clearly still the case.
:31:07. > :31:12.Our guests today are the Labour MP for Sheffield south-east and the
:31:12. > :31:16.Conservative MP for Pudsey. You are a Sheffield Wednesday fan and were
:31:16. > :31:22.at Hillsborough on that day. What can be revealed about the disaster
:31:22. > :31:25.that we don't already know? I don't know and that is the key issue
:31:25. > :31:30.about why the papers should be out there. The families and friends of
:31:30. > :31:35.those who lost their lives are the important ones. We have had
:31:35. > :31:39.inquiries, but there are still family members who feel they can't
:31:39. > :31:43.let the matter rest, that there may just be something there that gives
:31:43. > :31:47.them a better explanation and more information about what happened.
:31:48. > :31:51.Until the papers are out in public, I don't think that they will feel
:31:52. > :31:55.like everything is there for them to make a judgement about. They
:31:55. > :32:00.should give them the information so that they can reach a conclusion
:32:00. > :32:03.themselves. Nick Clegg, the Sheffield MP, said that all the
:32:03. > :32:08.papers relating to Hillsborough should be released. Why has the
:32:08. > :32:12.government rabbit seals? I don't know but I agree with Clive. The
:32:12. > :32:16.fact is that this petition has brought about an opportunity for
:32:16. > :32:20.this to be debated properly in the House of Commons. We have got to
:32:20. > :32:26.make sure that we treat this sensitively, because it is an
:32:26. > :32:29.incredibly sensitive issue. There is some division between the
:32:30. > :32:34.family's us to watch it happen. Some want the Pope has to go out to
:32:34. > :32:37.the public straightaway but others would rather like -- the papers to
:32:37. > :32:43.go out straight away but others would like it to be just to the
:32:43. > :32:47.families. Whoever was in government, the fact is that there are lessons
:32:47. > :32:50.to be learnt and we need to learn them because we do not want to see
:32:50. > :32:55.that again. I knew somebody who was there and they described that
:32:55. > :32:58.horrible feeling of being in that crowd as it was surging towards the
:32:58. > :33:03.fences. We have to learn these lessons and I don't care which
:33:03. > :33:06.government it was. Clive, the Labour government set up the
:33:06. > :33:10.Hillsborough information panel a couple of years ago. I thought the
:33:10. > :33:14.original plan was that they would release the findings next year and
:33:14. > :33:22.decide which of those papers should be made public. The panel is going
:33:22. > :33:30.through it and one of the jobs they are going to do - I met one of the
:33:30. > :33:33.representatives of the panel - and it is incumbent on all
:33:33. > :33:36.organisations to release medical record as far as they did relate to
:33:36. > :33:40.it it's individuals and emergency services and police records, and
:33:40. > :33:45.those things have to be in the public domain. One of the jobs the
:33:46. > :33:49.panel will do is to trawl through and remove a lot of duplication of
:33:50. > :33:54.documents. I had a look at my own records and there are lots of
:33:54. > :33:57.duplicates. But in the end, it is the decision to withhold certain
:33:57. > :34:00.papers that is going to leave a feeling around that those are the
:34:00. > :34:04.papers that really contain issues that are not in the public domain
:34:04. > :34:08.yet which could help explain what happened. Anything that leaves
:34:08. > :34:14.certain papers in secret is not going to mean that this issue can
:34:14. > :34:18.be put to bed. Electronic petition has - thousands of people are
:34:18. > :34:27.signing various petitions. We have 100,000 people calling for lower
:34:28. > :34:30.fuel, people who want a referendum on leaving the EU and people who
:34:30. > :34:35.want to bring back the death penalty. To what extent should the
:34:35. > :34:38.government bowed to these calls? are giving the public the
:34:38. > :34:41.opportunity to tell Parliament that they were meant to debate issues.
:34:41. > :34:46.There was one this week on the riots and that is a good thing for
:34:46. > :34:49.the engagement between Parliament and the electorate. The backbench
:34:49. > :34:53.committee in the House of Commons seems to be picking and choosing
:34:53. > :34:55.which is used to debate. You could get a situation where you had so
:34:55. > :35:00.many petitions you could not possibly debate them all
:35:00. > :35:04.immediately. But there is a weak connection between the public and
:35:04. > :35:09.Parliament. When I first went into Parliament, the questions that
:35:09. > :35:14.answered were put down two weeks before. A major event would happen
:35:14. > :35:18.and we would carry on asking questions that ignored it. So to
:35:18. > :35:20.have parliament responding more and more to up-to-date situations and
:35:20. > :35:24.the speed allowing more urgent questions and the electronic
:35:24. > :35:30.editions, this is a good example of something that would not be debated
:35:30. > :35:35.a couple of years ago. Parliament is getting more in tune with people.
:35:35. > :35:40.We are going to be talking trains now. The hour of the journey time
:35:40. > :35:50.from Yorkshire to London and lead to huge economic benefits, we are
:35:50. > :35:54.
:35:54. > :35:58.told. -- it could take an Abbott of the journey time. -- an hour off.
:35:58. > :36:02.Every day, thousands of passengers travelled to London from stations
:36:02. > :36:09.in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. It is a journey future travellers
:36:09. > :36:13.could enjoy a much quicker time. The argument for high-speed rail is
:36:13. > :36:17.tackling capacity constraints. East Coast main line is full
:36:17. > :36:21.between 10 and 12 years. This is the best way to tackle it. The
:36:21. > :36:29.Times savings are the icing on the cake Abbe bring additional economic
:36:29. > :36:37.and regeneration benefits. It is proposed the first leg of the route
:36:37. > :36:40.will run from London to Birmingham by 2026. By 2033, the line will be
:36:40. > :36:44.extended north on one side of the country to Manchester and on the
:36:44. > :36:54.other leg to Yorkshire, cutting the journey time from Leeds to London
:36:54. > :36:56.
:36:56. > :37:00.to just 80 minutes. The total estimated cost is �32 billion.
:37:00. > :37:03.opportunity by connecting the regions to London and the Midlands
:37:03. > :37:07.better and faster is important. The best way of investing in new
:37:07. > :37:11.capacity is to do them in high speed and by doing that, you create
:37:11. > :37:17.capacity in other lines to benefits it is not directly served by the
:37:17. > :37:21.high-speed network. Many argue that cost simply can't be justified in
:37:21. > :37:30.the current economic climate. It has a price tag which equates to
:37:30. > :37:35.more than �1,000 per house holds. A lobby has created his website
:37:35. > :37:40.warning taxpayers it could mean deeper cuts to police numbers and
:37:40. > :37:45.hospital wards shut down. The concern among some campaigners is
:37:45. > :37:51.that the new high-speed rail link will suck money away from the rail
:37:51. > :37:56.network in areas which went directly benefit from the service.
:37:56. > :38:01.-- which will not directly benefit. So spending on existing railways
:38:01. > :38:04.should not be cut back to fund this, so any planned improvements to the
:38:04. > :38:08.basic network should still take place. We should not find those
:38:08. > :38:14.disappearing. The one we are really worried about his alleged refining
:38:14. > :38:17.the Midland Main Line continuing from Leicester and Nottingham up to
:38:17. > :38:21.Sheffield. If this is one of the scheme is that they decide is not
:38:21. > :38:26.needed because of high-speed, then Sheffield could be another 20 years
:38:26. > :38:32.before they get a decent service to London. I don't think that's likely
:38:32. > :38:35.to be the case. We chaired a meeting with the Secretary of State
:38:35. > :38:40.for Transport and he made it very clear that the funding would not
:38:40. > :38:44.impact on general transport for the rest of the country. The Department
:38:44. > :38:48.of Transport is pursuing a programme of electrification across
:38:48. > :38:52.the country. They are electrifying the Great Western route and there
:38:52. > :39:00.are some plans now emerging for the Midland Main Line and Trans Pennine
:39:00. > :39:04.as part of their improvement of the railways. At present, the only
:39:04. > :39:09.high-speed link in the UK runs from London to the Channel Tunnel and
:39:09. > :39:17.when it comes to sip a fast rail links, we lag behind many of our
:39:17. > :39:21.European neighbours. -- super fast. The argument now is whether we can
:39:21. > :39:26.justify the cost of creating a new age of the high-speed train.
:39:26. > :39:31.Our MPs are still here and we have been joined by a guest who runs one
:39:31. > :39:35.of the main campaign groups against high-speed rail, who has come up
:39:35. > :39:39.with the website showing the cost of the project. We have had some
:39:39. > :39:42.pretty grim unemployment figures in the past few days. Why are you
:39:43. > :39:47.denying many people here in the North what some say is a vital
:39:47. > :39:50.economic lifeline? And I am in favour of investing in
:39:50. > :39:55.infrastructure to create jobs and growth but a high-speed rail link
:39:55. > :40:00.is not going to do that. It may even exacerbate the North-South
:40:00. > :40:04.divide. We are spending �800 million in the current Parliament
:40:04. > :40:09.to pay a few expensive consultants which is not going to create jobs
:40:09. > :40:15.and growth. We need to invest in the real transport priorities like
:40:15. > :40:18.Light Rail into Leeds. No one can say that the government can afford
:40:18. > :40:22.both. We are talking about the next government and the government after
:40:22. > :40:26.that and the story in France is that the ordinary rail system has
:40:27. > :40:35.been neglected to pay for high- speed rail. We cannot afford both.
:40:36. > :40:42.If we could, why are the cutting the Madrid by �9 million -- of the
:40:42. > :40:46.Metro by millions of pounds. A can you justify your constituents
:40:46. > :40:50.paying more than �1,000 per household? That is highly
:40:50. > :40:55.misleading because that is the total expenditure and does not take
:40:55. > :41:00.into account any of the fare income. Our capacity is becoming a real
:41:00. > :41:04.problem now and will be even worse in the next 20 years. We have got
:41:04. > :41:08.to deal with it. We could tinker around with the edges but as I said
:41:08. > :41:12.yesterday in the debate we had in Parliament, it would be like fixing
:41:12. > :41:20.a broken leg with a sticking plaster. We have a huge problem to
:41:20. > :41:23.deal with and high-speed rail is the way to deal with it. Clive,
:41:23. > :41:26.some suggestions that the Midland main line between Sheffield and
:41:26. > :41:31.London will not be allowed to fight because of the money spent on this
:41:31. > :41:39.new project. Does that bother you? I think the Midland Main Line could
:41:39. > :41:45.be electrified much more quickly. The town speed - but the timescale
:41:45. > :41:49.for high-speed rail means there is plenty of time. You need to improve
:41:49. > :41:54.other transport services to get the benefits of high-speed rail. France
:41:54. > :42:03.has had a very long periods of very successfully investing in high-
:42:03. > :42:06.speed rail. I went from one small from city to another this summer
:42:06. > :42:13.and they had high-speed rail there. They are investing in high-speed
:42:13. > :42:19.rail and crimes as well. The French model works so why should it not
:42:19. > :42:24.work here? Unemployment in at a particular area of France has gone
:42:24. > :42:30.up in relation to the rest of the country since high-speed rail.
:42:30. > :42:35.Places cannot wait until 2026 Aug 2033 for this. We need to invest
:42:35. > :42:40.now. Capacity can be improved substantially simply by increasing
:42:40. > :42:44.the number of standard class carriages on the west-coast
:42:44. > :42:51.mainline which would double the number of standard class seats. But
:42:51. > :42:55.his 100% growth against a 2% demand. When I went to your Tory party
:42:55. > :42:59.conference, I travelled on the train from Leeds to Manchester and
:42:59. > :43:04.stood all the way. Surely the government should be investing in
:43:04. > :43:07.rolling stock. And they are! That is the point. They are investing in
:43:07. > :43:12.rolling stock across the North of England and around the country. We
:43:12. > :43:17.are not saying it is high-speed rail or nothing. We need to invest
:43:17. > :43:20.in the infrastructure that we have now, but we also have to say speak
:43:20. > :43:25.about the future. Rail passenger numbers have doubled in the last 10
:43:26. > :43:30.years. If that happens again, where are these people going to sit?
:43:30. > :43:37.Adding a few extra carriages does not deal with the peak time problem.
:43:37. > :43:39.It is an interesting issue. It has united Labour and Conservatives
:43:39. > :43:47.together and add even more surprising, it has united Sheffield
:43:47. > :43:52.and Leeds! This is a big, expensive project which is going to cost a
:43:52. > :43:57.lot of money, but if we took your attitude we would never have built
:43:57. > :44:03.Concorde, and isn't bad thing to -- is unbarred Kingdom Brunel might as
:44:03. > :44:07.well never have got out of bed! think we should invest more in
:44:07. > :44:12.broadband because I am starting to use Skype calls more than physical
:44:12. > :44:19.meetings. But that will not affect growth. We need to take a high risk
:44:19. > :44:24.root and go down a path that has led to a lot of bankruptcy. -- and
:44:24. > :44:28.not go down a path. This is very expensive not just to build but
:44:28. > :44:38.also to subsidise. We should not be subsidising transport for a few
:44:38. > :44:41.rich people. We should be picky about buses, light rail, Intra
:44:41. > :44:47.conurbation journeys. We should not be thinking about journeys between
:44:47. > :44:52.London and Leeds. Manchester to Liverpool is 45 mph. Those are the
:44:52. > :44:56.ones we need to work on. By it is why that line is going to be
:44:56. > :45:00.electrified. Be his issues are already being addressed by the
:45:00. > :45:06.government. If the Victorians had behaved in the way he is suggesting,
:45:06. > :45:10.where would we be today? There would not be any railways. We have
:45:11. > :45:14.not spent enough on transport in this country, historically,
:45:14. > :45:20.particularly railways and light rail systems, and we have not spent
:45:21. > :45:28.in the North against the South. This is a chance to rectify that
:45:28. > :45:31.and then build on it. We don't just need corrections to London.
:45:31. > :45:36.Yorkshire should stand on its own feet and not be propped up by the
:45:36. > :45:41.South. I wonder if people in 2033 we look back on the debate we have