:00:04. > :00:14.attacks by militants since 2007. That is the summary. Now it is time
:00:14. > :00:38.
:00:38. > :00:42.Hello and welcome. This week MEPs are forced to debate on Europe's
:00:42. > :00:46.arrest warrant, designed to catch terrorists and the most serious
:00:46. > :00:50.criminals, some say it has been abused, used by national
:00:50. > :00:55.governments to pursue petty criminals across borders. Also on
:00:55. > :00:59.the programme: Fury in the chamber over the E-coli outbreak in
:00:59. > :01:03.northern Europe. Seven years after it was introduced, there are
:01:03. > :01:09.serious questions about Europe's arrest warrant. Some are calling
:01:09. > :01:13.for a complete overhaul of the legislation. The attacks on 11th
:01:13. > :01:17.September in 2001 across the Atlantic created a new urgency in
:01:17. > :01:23.Europe for getting a European arrest warrant to fight terrorism
:01:23. > :01:29.and organised crime. Soon after it came into force, it was used to
:01:29. > :01:33.extradite a failed bomber from Rome to Britain in 2005. He was later
:01:33. > :01:36.convicted of an attempt to attack the London transport system. The
:01:36. > :01:44.arrest warrant has undoubtedly delivered a -- many suspects
:01:44. > :01:50.accused of serious crimes to face trial but a recent report from --
:01:50. > :01:55.report showed some states are issuing huge number of warrants,
:01:55. > :01:59.apparently for a pity -- petty crimes. For 2009, 5,000 warrants
:01:59. > :02:04.were issued by Poland, twice the number issued by Germany had a
:02:04. > :02:09.fraction of those issued by France. In the same year, Britain only
:02:09. > :02:14.asked for 220 people to be extradited. The report calls for a
:02:14. > :02:18.total revamp of law. It says the current system is placing the
:02:18. > :02:22.speedy surrender of persons for two other member states above the
:02:22. > :02:26.proper safeguarding of fundamental rights and the principle of
:02:26. > :02:32.proportionality. Without change, many people will suffer injustice
:02:32. > :02:36.as a result of Europe's no questions asked extradition system.
:02:36. > :02:44.It is a sentiment expressed by many in the Strasbourg chamber this week
:02:44. > :02:48.as MEPs demanded how -- demanded the European system address the
:02:48. > :02:57.system's shortcomings. The justice minister said he is a key part of
:02:57. > :03:01.Europe's Arsenal to fight crime. -- it is a key part. It has been
:03:01. > :03:05.instrumental in smashing paedophile rings, catching terrorists and
:03:05. > :03:09.murderers. That is what it is therefore. However, and this is a
:03:09. > :03:16.recent movement, we have seen since 2007, that the number of arrest
:03:16. > :03:20.warrants issued has risen dramatically. In some cases it has
:03:20. > :03:30.been used in a less than proportionate manner to extradite
:03:30. > :03:34.
:03:35. > :03:43.suspects often of petty crime, stealing a eight... Stealing a bike.
:03:43. > :03:49.This could damage the legitimacy of this tall. New guidelines will be
:03:49. > :03:54.issued on how to use the warrant soon. New training will be issued
:03:54. > :03:58.for judges and police but it all falls short of an actual change in
:03:58. > :04:02.the law that set up the arrest warrant in the first place. To talk
:04:02. > :04:07.about this I am joined by four members of the European Parliament
:04:07. > :04:12.here in Strasbourg. We have a German MEP from the Green Party.
:04:12. > :04:17.You sit on the civil liberties community and you have put the
:04:17. > :04:25.question that triggered this week's debate. And you have also put
:04:25. > :04:33.forward a question and are a Labour MEP. Graham Watson, you are chair
:04:33. > :04:39.of the civil liberties -- or were in 2001, and you were the MEP who
:04:40. > :04:43.took the arrest warrant through the house. And we have a senior MEP
:04:43. > :04:46.from the acidic platform, the Polish centre-right party. Your
:04:46. > :04:50.government is in power at the moment and is using the arrest
:04:51. > :04:56.warrant fairly frequently, apparently. What is the problem
:04:56. > :05:06.with this? Clearly it has been useful, it has delivered people who
:05:06. > :05:09.are wanted criminals. The great thing about it was that it produces
:05:09. > :05:14.extradition which used to be a very cumbersome process. It was a
:05:14. > :05:19.cultural thing. People would talk about how long extradition would be
:05:19. > :05:25.for serious crimes. Essentially it knocked down a nine-month wait to
:05:25. > :05:32.50 days. That had to be a good thing when dealing with serious
:05:32. > :05:39.organised crime. Now we are having a system that deals with people
:05:39. > :05:46.have gone over their overdraft. trivial cases have really damaged
:05:46. > :05:52.what is a very strong procedural advance from -- for the EU. It is
:05:52. > :05:58.very positive. The idea that trivial cases which tend to be
:05:58. > :06:07.dominant in the media, but they are there, this has damaged what is a
:06:07. > :06:11.fantastic procedural advance. not just a problem of triviality
:06:11. > :06:16.but also people are sometimes being delivered to judicial and police
:06:17. > :06:20.systems which are not fit for their purpose and they are not getting
:06:20. > :06:25.proper representation. In some ways the EU put the cart before the
:06:25. > :06:31.horse. It should have made sure equality was there before it set up
:06:31. > :06:36.the arrest warrant. This has been used in thousands of cases and is
:06:36. > :06:40.probably the most effective tool we have in cross-border crime. When we
:06:40. > :06:44.put it in Parliament we argued it should only be used in cases which
:06:44. > :06:49.would have incurred a minimum of three years in prison and we argued
:06:49. > :06:54.it should be accompanied by the other directive on guaranteeing
:06:54. > :06:58.minimum rights two defenders in criminal proceedings. We are only
:06:58. > :07:02.one half of the legislature, the other half, the national government,
:07:02. > :07:07.decided against this and it was reduced to one year. So any crime
:07:07. > :07:10.that would have incurred a prison sentence of one year. Sadly the
:07:10. > :07:15.Commission proposal on the rights for defendants in criminal
:07:15. > :07:22.proceedings was never taken up by the council ministers. This has led
:07:22. > :07:26.to one or two cases that are rightly the case of parliamentary
:07:26. > :07:30.concern where not only have warrants been issued for frivolous
:07:30. > :07:37.offences but where people sometimes accused of serious offences have
:07:37. > :07:42.not had the right so that we would expect defendants to have. Some
:07:42. > :07:50.would argue one or two cases is a bit of an understatement. If you
:07:50. > :07:57.read that the report from Fair trials abroad, it seems to be an
:07:57. > :08:02.under statement. It is a little bit but that is not the core concern.
:08:02. > :08:07.There has been a mistake and that was pointed out that we did not
:08:07. > :08:13.really buildally build standards before going forward with mutual
:08:13. > :08:21.recognition like the European arrest warrant. This was a huge
:08:21. > :08:26.mistake which has to be corrected now. We need to adjust the European
:08:26. > :08:31.arrest warrant, we need a proportionality test. Then we have
:08:31. > :08:41.to go forwards by a building up common standards which are binding
:08:41. > :08:47.for member states. There has to be an implicit request that member
:08:47. > :08:52.states come up with proposals. Given that Poland is currently
:08:52. > :08:57.using that arrest warrant more than any other country, the figure is
:08:57. > :09:00.around 4,000 times for the year 2009, and given that Poland is
:09:00. > :09:08.going to take over the presidency of the EU pretty soon, is this
:09:08. > :09:16.going to be at the top of the agenda of the Polish presidency?
:09:16. > :09:22.is not at the top, it will be in the pipeline. Why is it not at the
:09:22. > :09:25.top? This question has been with us for the last ten years and we will
:09:25. > :09:33.not resolve it in a matter of months. If we were to change it, it
:09:33. > :09:38.will take time. If we raised one year or three years... That
:09:38. > :09:46.legislative process, we could see the end of it. But if we are
:09:46. > :09:53.talking about having common standards on the process, that
:09:53. > :09:59.takes time. The Polish government is taking this seriously.
:09:59. > :10:09.Campaigners are talking about amending the legislation. The one
:10:09. > :10:20.
:10:20. > :10:24.It is a time-lag... These directives are, we are moving
:10:24. > :10:29.toward them but we did not create an even playing field in the first
:10:29. > :10:36.instance. The reason why it is a pity that it is not part of the
:10:36. > :10:41.Polish presidency... Thursley there are many issues, it is seen as
:10:41. > :10:46.unfair because it is different from detention times in other countries.
:10:46. > :10:51.Nobody is criticising any other country but this creates a field
:10:51. > :10:56.day for Euro-sceptics because what they do is point to the European
:10:56. > :11:06.arrest warrant as evidence of the idea that some countries have a
:11:06. > :11:11.
:11:11. > :11:18.harsher detention regimes and They do not give a reason and the
:11:18. > :11:22.even up standards. We do not need to change the legislation but we
:11:22. > :11:25.need to insist that we get a directive on minimum standards of
:11:25. > :11:30.four defendants in criminal legal proceedings. We have made some
:11:30. > :11:34.progress already, we already have a directive on the right to
:11:34. > :11:40.interpretation. We also need to insist more with member states on
:11:40. > :11:46.how they have implemented the legislation. Some, like Germany,
:11:46. > :11:49.have a implemented it extremely well and so their judges do not
:11:49. > :11:54.extradite people in cases where there are concerns. In other
:11:54. > :12:00.countries, like Britain, we did not look quite closely at how we
:12:00. > :12:08.implemented it. The government says there needs to be a review. We are
:12:08. > :12:12.competing with a visiting orchestra down there. Let me ask you, how can
:12:12. > :12:17.you have a situation where a grandfather from Bristol is being
:12:17. > :12:27.asked to be extradited to Poland for an overdraft that he did not
:12:27. > :12:28.
:12:28. > :12:32.pay several years ago? sometimes there are prere are pr
:12:32. > :12:37.incorporating because member states have different understandings on
:12:37. > :12:43.how to apply directives. In Poland I have the impression that often
:12:43. > :12:50.the European arrest warrant was used because the national arrest
:12:50. > :12:55.warrants are sometimes too hard to get. And European arrest warrant
:12:55. > :13:02.was easier to get than a national one. These situations should not
:13:02. > :13:05.occur in the framework of European law. Why does Poland have such a
:13:05. > :13:14.huge number of instances where the European arrest warrant has been
:13:14. > :13:18.used? The size of our immigration, there is of movement when it comes
:13:18. > :13:22.to Polish citizens. Yes, sometimes this instrument has been abused
:13:22. > :13:29.because it is relatively easy to get. The most important thing is
:13:29. > :13:32.that we change our practices and that there are clear
:13:32. > :13:36.recommendations when we resort to this instrument. We have a huge
:13:36. > :13:43.debate about it because we had to change our constitution in order to
:13:43. > :13:53.actually be able to implemented because our constitution put a?
:13:53. > :13:55.
:13:55. > :13:59.Question mark about whether it agreed with our constitution. We
:13:59. > :14:06.have to say that loud and clear. The overall effect is very positive
:14:06. > :14:13.because most of those guys are serious criminals who are brought
:14:13. > :14:19.to justice. This is serious. This touches upon sovereignty and that
:14:19. > :14:26.is why it goes so slow. But we have to do something about it, first
:14:26. > :14:33.with practicth practic with legislative moves. Do you agree
:14:33. > :14:43.with the moves by campaigners that a refusal by a member state to hand
:14:43. > :14:45.
:14:45. > :14:54.somebody over must be respected? It We have the power to not can
:14:54. > :14:57.someone over. But it is not used. As legislators, we have to look at
:14:57. > :15:04.the wider impact on European legislation like the European
:15:04. > :15:10.arrest warrant. We are in a special battlefield area, and because it
:15:10. > :15:14.touches the sovereignty, issues such as present conditions, where
:15:14. > :15:24.we do not have the legislative power. Because we touched on those
:15:24. > :15:26.
:15:26. > :15:35.is not for its successes, like the bar mark that was extradited, but
:15:35. > :15:39.trivial cases, and that feeds the sceptical again down -- agenda.
:15:39. > :15:49.see more wore more wor a feeding the EU sceptic agenda than changing
:15:49. > :15:50.
:15:50. > :15:54.to catch serious organised criminals. That is why I am worried.
:15:54. > :16:01.The agenda damages what is a very good procedural vehicle for doing
:16:01. > :16:05.it. It is not right to say that there are noere are noere are no
:16:05. > :16:10.Britain last year, there were 30 cases in which the judges refused
:16:10. > :16:14.to extradite somebody for one reason or another on the basis of
:16:14. > :16:18.the European arrest warrant, so judges do not always get to write
:16:18. > :16:22.any more than politicians. But the reality is that this is the only
:16:22. > :16:28.effective tool that we have in Europe to do with people who are
:16:28. > :16:32.As Mark Twain said, a criminal is halfway across the world before a
:16:32. > :16:39.policeman has his boots on, unless we can get our police forces
:16:39. > :16:49.working together, the then the victims of that crime are going to
:16:49. > :16:50.
:16:50. > :16:58.have no access to justice. Judges are independent. It is difficult to
:16:58. > :17:02.have recommendations which would be effective. We have a framework that
:17:02. > :17:09.is binding for us all, the Convention of Human Rights, for
:17:09. > :17:16.example. Fair trial and so on. It is leading the decisions of the
:17:16. > :17:22.judges in Europe. In addition, we have a charter of fundamental
:17:22. > :17:26.rights on a European level which is binding us as European institutions
:17:26. > :17:32.to follow the cases which are important to care about, and
:17:32. > :17:38.therefore I would like to have us all going forward to have new
:17:38. > :17:43.procedure standards and amending of the practices and a framework.
:17:43. > :17:48.you not agree that getting the ministers around the table to
:17:48. > :17:55.accept a series of new recommendations will be enough?
:17:55. > :17:59.think it has to be more. In between the last five or six years, we come
:17:59. > :18:04.forward with police and justice Corporation, with come forward with
:18:04. > :18:10.it -- except in measures operating, but where we are not coming forward
:18:10. > :18:20.is implementing common standards. This is a problem which individual
:18:20. > :18:27.citizens are can see, and they are concerned. We have to have that.
:18:27. > :18:32.This is not about scepticism. This about -- this is about people
:18:32. > :18:40.thinking about current values and right. We will leave it there.
:18:40. > :18:45.Let's have a look at what has been going on in Strasbourg.
:18:45. > :18:50.MEPs voted overwhelmingly on a freeze on the Budget. The
:18:50. > :18:57.parliament effectively rejected calls from Britain to show
:18:57. > :19:01.austerity. Best-supported a 5% rise. Under pressure from national
:19:01. > :19:05.parties and government are back home, most British MEPs did not
:19:05. > :19:14.follow the majority. Some extent, but a few defied the whip
:19:14. > :19:19.altogether. In a time of austerity, we need to have a freeze, but we
:19:19. > :19:24.have a number of major tasks ahead of us. We have a renewed need to
:19:24. > :19:27.insure cohesion with the European Union, I think therefore it is
:19:27. > :19:34.sensible to look at an increase in the European budget around the 5%
:19:34. > :19:40.level. For the first time, the Commission launched a set of 27
:19:40. > :19:43.separate recommendations for each EU country, designed to better co-
:19:43. > :19:47.ordinate national economies within the EU. Suggestions about cutting
:19:47. > :19:54.public debt and creating jobs and growth, the commission says it is a
:19:54. > :20:04.chance to turn the corner of the crisis. We may not be at the end
:20:04. > :20:09.game. But we can see the beginning of the end of the crisis if we're
:20:09. > :20:12.able to take difficult decisions. Croatia is ready to join the EU,
:20:12. > :20:19.according to the European Commission. The country hopes to
:20:19. > :20:24.become a member by 2013. If MEPs agreed they have done what is
:20:24. > :20:26.necessary to make the grade, it could be on the cards.
:20:26. > :20:32.Dr breaker the coli which has already killed 20 people in Germany
:20:32. > :20:38.is high on the agenda. -- the outbreak of E-coli. Health experts
:20:39. > :20:48.met. The European Parliament held a debate which at times got very
:20:49. > :20:51.
:20:52. > :20:59.fiery. TRANSLATION: It is quite clear the German authorities rushed
:20:59. > :21:06.in. The food authority and also the European Commission has had showed
:21:06. > :21:11.no co-ordination and no leadership. Those affected deserve compensation.
:21:11. > :21:17.I suggest that we in Brussels and Strasbourg should now organised a
:21:18. > :21:23.massive rally in support of the cucumber. I think we need to re-
:21:23. > :21:29.establish the loss on of the cucumber produces. -- the Lost
:21:29. > :21:33.Honour. As we speak, the European Commission has placed 150 million
:21:33. > :21:38.euros in compensation for farmers affected by this crisis. There
:21:39. > :21:44.could be more to come. Is that enough? What lessons are being
:21:44. > :21:51.loaned for the future? I am joined by two members of the European
:21:51. > :22:01.Parliament, we have a person who leads the Spanish Socialists. We
:22:01. > :22:02.
:22:02. > :22:05.have a German Christian Democrat. Give me a sense of how serious this
:22:05. > :22:13.crisis is for farmers in Spain, and also for the country's economy
:22:13. > :22:20.itself. There have been 22 people dead. So the first been used to
:22:21. > :22:28.regret those casualties and the first thing is to go for solidarity.
:22:28. > :22:36.There are lessons to be drawn. We may set up a protocol not to panic
:22:36. > :22:46.and not to cause damage to people who work in the agricultural sector.
:22:46. > :22:53.They are losing a lot of money. are losing 200 million euros per
:22:53. > :22:56.week. Compensation is needed. But besides that, something must be
:22:56. > :23:04.done about how to react to this kind of situation without panicking,
:23:04. > :23:09.without putting blame unfairly to someone else, and how to act
:23:10. > :23:14.together to see the source of the outbreak. That is exactly what did
:23:14. > :23:21.not happen. Did you accept that the German authorities dealt with this
:23:21. > :23:26.in a textbook way, of how not to deal with it? There have been
:23:26. > :23:34.mistakes. On a regional level, the responsible person for health in
:23:34. > :23:37.Hamburg announced publicly that there is bacteria on the Spanish
:23:37. > :23:44.cucumber, without a forming the European Commission and the Spanish
:23:44. > :23:48.authorities. They informed them much later, and even the Federal
:23:48. > :23:53.government was not informed properly. This is not how we should
:23:53. > :23:59.deal with such a problem. On the other end, we cannot share the
:23:59. > :24:03.position of those who say that we should only inform the public when
:24:03. > :24:08.we are completely sure that there is a problem. I think we cannot
:24:08. > :24:15.wait until we are 100% stake before we make an announcement. That is a
:24:15. > :24:21.fair point. That is one thing, and the other thing is to put the blame
:24:21. > :24:24.on a certain product. And then spread through rumours, the
:24:24. > :24:29.prejudice that those prom -- that those products are to be set aside
:24:29. > :24:33.from the whole market. That causes a lot of damage. That causes a lot
:24:33. > :24:41.of trouble, once you have put the blame, it is very difficult to
:24:41. > :24:49.repair. I insist that political lessons are to be drawn on how to
:24:49. > :24:52.react. Out there issues about farming methods, they billing
:24:52. > :24:57.methods, they go beyond this particular crisis they need to be
:24:57. > :25:02.addressed as well? It is not an easy question to answer. Some say
:25:02. > :25:08.that we need better food labelling. On the vegetables that are likely
:25:08. > :25:14.to be the cause, we already have labelling of Origin by country.
:25:15. > :25:24.That is what we ask for on other products. We cannot say that
:25:24. > :25:29.organic farming is better. There is a major political concentration to
:25:29. > :25:34.be dry -- to be drawn as a lesson. We need it a stronger Europe, a
:25:34. > :25:38.more effective Europe. It is a wrong direction when we have
:25:38. > :25:44.started scapegoating member states, producers within Europe, workers