:00:18. > :00:23.Welcome to The Record. The headlines and David Cameron and Ed
:00:23. > :00:27.Miliband battle over welfare changes for cancer patients.
:00:27. > :00:32.Ministers urge unions to call off co-ordinated strikes. Anger over
:00:32. > :00:38.plans to make the cheque book a thing of the past. This is a
:00:38. > :00:40.shocking mess and a scandal. eyes were on Ed Miliband during
:00:40. > :00:46.Prime Minister's Questions after what was considered a poor
:00:46. > :00:49.performance by him last week. He concentrated on welfare changes set
:00:49. > :00:57.out in the Welfare Reform Bill, which MPs were due to discuss later
:00:58. > :01:07.today. It would mean thousands of cancer patients would lose money.
:01:08. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:17.Mr Speaker, when Andy Prime Minister signed off his welfare
:01:17. > :01:24.Bill, did he realise it would make seven thousand cancer patients
:01:24. > :01:30.worse off by a �94 per week? That is simply not the case. We are
:01:30. > :01:36.using the same definition of people suffering as a terminally ill as
:01:36. > :01:40.the last government. We want them helped and protected. If you are in
:01:40. > :01:45.favour of welfare reform, you encourage people to do the right
:01:45. > :01:54.thing, it is no good talking about it, you have got to vote for it.
:01:54. > :02:01.Miliband insisted his figures were Macmillan Cancer Support says... I
:02:01. > :02:11.think they should listen to what they have to say! This is what they
:02:11. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:16.have said, I think it is a disgrace Conservative members are shouting.
:02:17. > :02:21.This is what they have said... Many people will lose this benefit
:02:21. > :02:25.simply because they haven't recovered quickly enough. Mr
:02:26. > :02:34.Speaker, I asked him the question, will he admit seven thousand cancer
:02:34. > :02:42.patients are losing �94 per week? Let me try and explain it again.
:02:42. > :02:47.Order! Order. I think it is a disgrace members on both sides of
:02:47. > :02:52.the House are shouting their heads off when matters of serious concern
:02:52. > :02:59.are being debated. I repeat what I have said before, the public
:02:59. > :03:05.despise this behaviour. This is important and I want to explain why
:03:05. > :03:12.Haitink he has got it wrong and why I think we are right. -- why I
:03:12. > :03:17.think. These are horrible things do have to discuss. The definition is
:03:17. > :03:23.the same one which as I have said is six months or stop anybody out
:03:23. > :03:29.of work living longer than that will get the extra support. That is
:03:29. > :03:35.irrespective of a person's income or assets and that will last for 12
:03:35. > :03:41.months, not the six months that he said. This additional support can
:03:41. > :03:45.last indefinitely. It is the same test as the last government. It is
:03:45. > :03:52.put in place fairly and we have listened carefully to make melon
:03:52. > :03:58.and we have made sure somebody is reviewing the medical tests. --
:03:58. > :04:05.Macmillan Cancer Support. I understand he is distracting us but
:04:05. > :04:11.he should answer my question, why will he not back the Bill? I asked
:04:11. > :04:21.the questions and he fails to answer them. Let me try and explain
:04:21. > :04:25.it. The chief medical officer of Macmillan Cancer Support said in my
:04:25. > :04:31.experience, one year is not long enough for many people to recover
:04:31. > :04:36.from cancer. The side-effects can last for months or even years after
:04:36. > :04:41.treatment. It is vital people are not forced to return to work before
:04:41. > :04:46.they are ready. Macmillan Cancer Support and Britain's cancer
:04:46. > :04:52.charities have been making this argument for mums. Why does he not
:04:52. > :04:59.know about these arguments? The House of Commons is a doting on his
:04:59. > :05:05.Bill tonight. Will he now admits that 7,000 cancer patients are
:05:05. > :05:11.losing up to �94 per week? I have answered his question or three
:05:11. > :05:18.times with a full explanation. The point of the benefit reforms is
:05:18. > :05:24.that there are proper medical tests are. We support people that cannot
:05:24. > :05:29.work as a compassionate country showed. We make sure people that
:05:29. > :05:33.can work go out to work so that we do not reward that behaviour. He is
:05:34. > :05:37.putting up a smokescreen because he has been found out. He talk about
:05:37. > :05:45.the importance of welfare reform but he cannot take his divided
:05:45. > :05:51.party with temples DUP it is weak leadership of a divided party. --
:05:51. > :05:57.divided party. Weak leadership of a divided party. What a disgrace to
:05:57. > :06:02.talk about a smokescreen. This is about people out in the country and
:06:02. > :06:11.people concerned on their behalf of. It is not about people terminally
:06:11. > :06:18.ill. It is people recovering from cancer. The we understand he does
:06:18. > :06:26.not think his policies through. Is this not one occasion to pause,
:06:26. > :06:31.listen and reflect? Why does the not too bad? What we have seen this
:06:31. > :06:38.week is the honourable gentleman get on the wrong side of every
:06:38. > :06:45.issue. With cutting the deficit, we have got the International Monetary
:06:45. > :06:50.Fund, his brother, Tony Blair, they are all on our side and he is alone.
:06:50. > :06:55.On welfare reform we have got everybody recognising welfare
:06:55. > :07:01.reform apart from the honourable gentleman. On the health service we
:07:01. > :07:05.have the Royal College of GPs, nurses, positions, the former
:07:06. > :07:15.Labour Health Minister and Tony Blair all on the side of reform. He
:07:16. > :07:18.
:07:18. > :07:21.is on his own. A weak leader of a The Government has called on unions
:07:21. > :07:28.to call off a series of co- ordinated strikes in protest at
:07:28. > :07:35.changes to pensions, job cuts and a pay freeze. As many as a 750,000
:07:35. > :07:39.public sector workers are expected to walk out on June 30th. PC as an
:07:39. > :07:49.two teacher unions have decided to strike on the same day in England
:07:49. > :07:52.
:07:52. > :07:57.and Wales will stop -- PCS --. -- The unions had been accused of
:07:58. > :08:03.jumping the gun while talks continued on pension changes.
:08:03. > :08:10.should not go in for industrial action. It schools close because of
:08:10. > :08:18.that, the disruption to education and to be lives of parents depended
:08:18. > :08:25.on schools being open will be very considerable. We are trying to keep
:08:25. > :08:30.public sector pensions among the best. But other taxpayers have had
:08:30. > :08:36.their pension schemes affected and I think people will be upset if
:08:37. > :08:41.industrial action goes ahead. should they be surprised? Many of
:08:41. > :08:50.them are poorly paid and they have got an onslaught on patients --
:08:50. > :08:55.pensions. It would be surprising if they did not fight back. If we had
:08:55. > :09:02.not inherited the biggest budget deficit in the developed world, we
:09:02. > :09:10.might not have to take these steps. I would remind them that a civil
:09:10. > :09:13.servant on medium a, �23,000, retiring after 40 years, will have
:09:13. > :09:22.a pension costing half a million pounds to purchase in the private
:09:22. > :09:27.sector. Nobody has access to pensions like that now. May I
:09:27. > :09:34.commend them for engaging with the public sector unions to avoid
:09:34. > :09:38.industrial action? But he does not rule out a legislative changes. Can
:09:38. > :09:44.I plead on behalf of the Select Committee that we do this in an
:09:44. > :09:49.orderly fashion? Perhaps he should consult about what changes should
:09:49. > :09:55.be made and then we can have a proper debate instead of being
:09:56. > :10:00.propelled into legislative changes. I do not have responsibility for
:10:00. > :10:06.industrial legislation. That rests with the Secretary of State for
:10:06. > :10:11.business. But we did not rule out changes. Changes have not been
:10:11. > :10:18.ruled out from outside. We think these legislation works well at the
:10:18. > :10:24.moment but we keep that under review. Does he agree pensions
:10:24. > :10:30.should be deferred wages? It should come as no surprise that people are
:10:30. > :10:37.trying to protect future income. That is why we are engaging with
:10:37. > :10:44.these discussions at the behest of the TUC. These discussions are
:10:44. > :10:50.continuing. I remind him that Lord Hutton, the previous Labour
:10:50. > :10:54.Secretary recommended these reforms to recommend that they are
:10:54. > :11:02.sustainable and affordable for the future. Any public servant
:11:02. > :11:05.contemplating strike action currently is jumping the gun.
:11:05. > :11:09.he understand why public sector unions are balloting members on
:11:09. > :11:17.strike action now when talks regarding pension dorm are still
:11:17. > :11:23.ongoing? Only three unions have done that. The majority are
:11:23. > :11:27.engaging in good faith with the ongoing discussions. We are
:11:27. > :11:31.determined public sector pensions at the end of the reforms proposed
:11:31. > :11:36.by Lord Hutton, the Labour pension Secretary, will be among the best
:11:36. > :11:43.available. We will ask people to work longer because they are living
:11:43. > :11:49.longer. We want a balance between what they pay and what others paid.
:11:49. > :11:55.To what extent does he expect PCS action to have an effect on public
:11:55. > :11:59.services? People are imbued with a strong ethos and will recognise
:11:59. > :12:08.what we are trying to do is get pensions but continued to be among
:12:08. > :12:12.the best available. -- that continued. There is a balance
:12:12. > :12:20.between what they pay and what other taxpayers paid. Some people
:12:20. > :12:26.have taken a hit. The plan to phase out chequebooks have been attacked
:12:26. > :12:32.by the Treasury committee. -- has been attacked. They want to get rid
:12:32. > :12:37.of them by 2018 it a viable alternatives are found. It says
:12:37. > :12:40.they are in terminal decline as people look at automated payment.
:12:40. > :12:45.Concerns have been raised about the impact on business and the
:12:45. > :12:51.vulnerable. The chairman went on the attack. Was this an error of
:12:51. > :13:01.judgment? I did it is the right thing to do but actually we could
:13:01. > :13:03.
:13:03. > :13:07.have managed it bettered. -- I think it is. -- better. I am trying
:13:07. > :13:16.to get clarity on way you think the judgements that you have made which
:13:16. > :13:23.have triggered these concerns, were they broadly right and was the
:13:23. > :13:27.presentation that or are these judgments themselves questionable?
:13:27. > :13:34.I think on balance the approach was right. I think the presentation has
:13:34. > :13:40.not been good. This is a presentation issue? The big issue
:13:40. > :13:49.was presentation. What we are trying to do is protect the
:13:49. > :13:59.position of the Bible. We are trying to insure -- abominable. --
:13:59. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:09.the vulnerable. We are trying to have an acceptable alternative. Had
:14:09. > :14:18.we not actually take them this Abridge, -- of this method, we
:14:18. > :14:26.would not have had safeguards in place. What are the alternatives?
:14:26. > :14:31.The alternatives that he will put him place it chequebooks are ended?
:14:31. > :14:38.We are looking at a viable alternative. We do not have a clear
:14:39. > :14:47.alternative? Work is being damned. We are looking at mobile payment. -
:14:47. > :14:52.- accomplished. Was it foolish to embark on a decision to get rid of
:14:52. > :14:59.chequebooks before working out at the by alternative? I did not think
:14:59. > :15:04.it is a colossal error of judgment. Not only have no decision has been
:15:04. > :15:13.made. In five years we do not have a guarantee that decisions will be
:15:13. > :15:23.considered. He will not come to a view for at least two five years.
:15:23. > :15:27.can guarantee that, yes. Why is it that Barclays under the heading,
:15:28. > :15:35.preparing for the future, why are they telling their customers,
:15:35. > :15:42.chequebooks are becoming a thing of the past? I have got a letter from
:15:42. > :15:50.Barclays. I cannot account for what they have said. But what have you
:15:50. > :15:54.down? Did you know anything about this? What they are telling me is
:15:54. > :15:59.that it is imperative that we have a viable set up alternatives in
:16:00. > :16:05.place. Otherwise Barclays cannot support the withdrawal of
:16:05. > :16:11.chequebooks as set by the payment Council in 2016. Barclays is
:16:11. > :16:15.prepared to accept chequebooks beyond 2016 it the criteria is not
:16:15. > :16:25.met. Writing it is clear they are not saying it is definitely
:16:25. > :16:31.happening. -- I think it is clear. If it is not realistic, they are
:16:31. > :16:40.saying, then we delay the timetable. That is my position as well. It is
:16:40. > :16:49.not definitely set. If we can get an acceptable alternative by 2016,
:16:49. > :16:55.we will deliver or otherwise we What effect do you think that has
:16:55. > :17:00.on customers who rely on cheques? Look, I need the look at the bank
:17:00. > :17:04.mandate, without seeing it, I don't know. This is an appalling mess
:17:04. > :17:10.isn't it. This is a shocking mess. In fact sit a scandal. I mean, here
:17:11. > :17:15.you are trying to tell us, that there hasn't been a colossal error
:17:15. > :17:21.of judgment but it is worse than a colossal error of jums. You have
:17:21. > :17:27.the banks out there, telling customers, that cheques for for the
:17:27. > :17:32.chop. Look, I am sorry. I obviously will speak to Barclay, I can't
:17:32. > :17:36.account for what they are saying, I can only represent the payments
:17:36. > :17:41.council and I can represent do you what they are telling me, and what
:17:41. > :17:44.they are telling me is what I have just said. And the main news again.
:17:44. > :17:49.David Cameron has clashed with the Labour leader Ed Miliband during
:17:49. > :17:55.prim's questions over the issue of welfare payments for cancer
:17:55. > :18:01.patients. Mr Miliband claimed 7,000 people would be �94 a week worse
:18:01. > :18:08.off under the Welfare Reform Bill. Mr Cameron accused him of using the
:18:08. > :18:11.issue as a smoke screen. Still to come: After the recent row over
:18:11. > :18:15.super-injunction, the Justice Secretary treads carefully on the
:18:15. > :18:20.issue of parliamentary privilege. want to feel free to say what the
:18:20. > :18:26.devil I like on legitimate subjects as long as I am taking part in the
:18:26. > :18:29.proceedings of Parliament. before that, Labour MPs say victim
:18:29. > :18:33.os domestic abuse will be put at a serious financial disadvantage by
:18:33. > :18:37.the Government's changes to the system of emergency welfare
:18:37. > :18:39.payments to vulnerable people. The removal of the Social Fund is
:18:39. > :18:44.contained in the Welfare Reform Bill which ministers say will bring
:18:44. > :18:48.about the biggest overhaul of the benefit systems in 70 years. The
:18:48. > :18:53.bill hands over to local councils the power to make the crisis
:18:53. > :18:58.payments, but several opposition MPs saucers you problems with the
:18:58. > :19:04.plan. It is with my experience, that I am so concerned about the
:19:04. > :19:07.Government's proposals and what it could mean for them. Now a woman
:19:07. > :19:12.fleeing domestic violence often has to leave her home with nothing more
:19:12. > :19:15.than the clothes she is standing in without money or access to money
:19:15. > :19:18.but still needs vital items for herself and her children. A group
:19:18. > :19:23.of the women's charities have written to the Home Secretary
:19:23. > :19:28.warning some council also not be financially able or willing to help
:19:28. > :19:34.women to escape violent partners for, on the grounds of this part of
:19:34. > :19:36.the legislation, they believe there will be an increased postcode
:19:36. > :19:39.lottery of provision which doesn't reflect the previous claim that
:19:39. > :19:44.tackling domestic violence is a priority. They fear that councils
:19:44. > :19:48.could impose a local connection test which could disadvantage women
:19:48. > :19:51.fleeing domestic violence wo are often and almost by definition
:19:51. > :19:54.forced to move into another area. They say many women fleeing the
:19:55. > :19:58.home have to leave everything behind including household few
:19:58. > :20:03.nishing and essential items which most families take for granted to
:20:03. > :20:10.rebuild their lives in a new home. If it is to be localised, if
:20:10. > :20:17.emergency support is to be localised, what we need is a strong
:20:17. > :20:20.and unam by -- unambiguous clear statutory duty to support
:20:20. > :20:25.vulnerable people. I don't think that Status Quo really is an option
:20:25. > :20:30.because of the level of abuse that we have in the system at the moment.
:20:30. > :20:34.First, I would point out that in terms of crisis loans, the number
:20:34. > :20:39.of loans since 2006 has tripled, and we don't really believe that
:20:39. > :20:43.this increase reflects an underlying increase in genuine need.
:20:43. > :20:49.Either as a result of the recession or the result of any other things,
:20:49. > :20:53.because we have looked in detail at the those individuals who are
:20:53. > :20:59.increase, causing that increased level of demand, and that analysis
:20:59. > :21:03.has shown it is being driven by young single people, on JSA, many
:21:03. > :21:06.of whom are still living at home. don't think I would be against the
:21:06. > :21:11.principle of welfare reform, but what I am against is how it will
:21:11. > :21:16.affect the people that come to me on a regular basis. There wouldn't
:21:16. > :21:20.be a week pass in my office and indeed in the offices that I
:21:20. > :21:23.organise, and look after, that we don't have people in for crisis
:21:23. > :21:26.loans and people under pressure financial pressure all the time.
:21:26. > :21:29.Would he agree with me part of the difficulty is in those
:21:29. > :21:34.circumstances where people's finances are very stretch and where
:21:34. > :21:41.Tay are very vulnerable, this, the crisis loan system stands between
:21:41. > :21:44.them and the kind of extortion ath interest lender, which can impact
:21:44. > :21:48.on their financial welfare but their health anding with bell.
:21:48. > :21:53.People who are vulnerable, on a low income, particularly have got a
:21:53. > :21:57.great sense of pride, when claiming benefit. I won't give way at the
:21:57. > :22:01.moment thank you. And I do believe, I absolutely believe that to force
:22:01. > :22:07.people into the arms of charity will mean that some people will not
:22:07. > :22:11.go down that route, and will go to high cost lenders, rather than do
:22:11. > :22:16.that. I maybe wrong but is the honourable lady really criticises
:22:17. > :22:21.the charities that provide these services, excellent second-hand
:22:21. > :22:24.furniture facilities through CBS and so on, because these are not
:22:24. > :22:30.undignified. These are providing good quality goods that people can
:22:30. > :22:36.have at reasonable prices and are very worthwhile. Now the Justice
:22:36. > :22:40.Secretary and land lors Kenneth Clarke has warned the dangers of
:22:40. > :22:47.MPs an pierce abusing parliamentary privilege. It allows members of
:22:47. > :22:53.Parliament to say what they like in the Commons and Lords would without
:22:53. > :22:58.fear of legal reprising. Last month John Hemming was accused of taking
:22:58. > :23:02.it for granted when he used it to talk about Ryan Giggs. He told a
:23:02. > :23:07.committee how the privileged principle was ap plied was being
:23:07. > :23:15.looked at You have to decide what do about the danger, somebody who
:23:15. > :23:19.wants to defame a rival or enemy, could conceivably find a peer or
:23:19. > :23:23.member of the House of Commons prepared to use parliamentary
:23:23. > :23:29.privilege to make statements about the victim with complete privilege
:23:29. > :23:33.and then it is open season for everybody to print it. I mean, I
:23:33. > :23:39.don't think it is for the Government necessarily, but I think
:23:39. > :23:42.the growing habit of court orders being defied by people making
:23:42. > :23:48.pronouncements using parliamentary privilege which are plainly defying
:23:48. > :23:51.the court order is something House authorities and members of both
:23:51. > :24:00.Houses should consider with care. There is a relationship between the
:24:00. > :24:06.courts and Parliament. There is, and I think we ought to be careful.
:24:06. > :24:09.I put it as cautiously. Normally like most MPs I rally to the flag
:24:09. > :24:14.of parliamentary privilege with vehemence. I want to say what the
:24:14. > :24:19.devil I like on legitimate subjects as long as I am taking part in the
:24:19. > :24:23.proceedings of Parliament, but perhaps some guidance or measures
:24:23. > :24:27.by either house to give a steer to members to what is proper and what
:24:27. > :24:32.is not would be helpful, but it is not easy, not at the moment,
:24:32. > :24:37.subject either of these hearings or anything I have taken positive
:24:37. > :24:41.action about. We are looking at it. Elsewhere in the session, the
:24:41. > :24:44.committee asked the Culture Secretary about the role of the
:24:44. > :24:51.Press Complaints Commission where people can lodge complaints. Jeremy
:24:51. > :24:56.Hunt says he saw it as a mediation service. Most of the time they
:24:56. > :25:02.resolve satisfactorily issues in those 98% of cases by getting an
:25:02. > :25:08.agreement secured between the press concerned the individual concerned.
:25:08. > :25:14.But that doesn't always happen, and I think the issue as far as the PCC
:25:14. > :25:21.is concerned, is that its credibility and its success rests
:25:21. > :25:26.on confidence of the public. It's a self-regulatery mechanism, not on a
:25:26. > :25:32.statutory basis and we have deliberately as a country gone down
:25:32. > :25:36.that route, precisely to avoid the chilling effect that we fear that
:25:36. > :25:40.statutory regulation might have on the press, but that does depend on
:25:41. > :25:45.the public having confidence in the way it works, and I think that, I
:25:45. > :25:49.mean I am sure you are going to come on and talk about phone
:25:49. > :25:54.hacking, but when issues like that have gone through the courts, and
:25:54. > :25:59.when that process is complete, then I think people will want to reflect
:25:59. > :26:05.on whether the PCC has been as effective as it might be and what
:26:05. > :26:09.it needs to restore public confidence in self regulation of
:26:09. > :26:15.the press. Is is the confidence of the public more important than the
:26:15. > :26:19.confidence of the editors? Or equally important or less
:26:19. > :26:24.important? Well, I would go back to the point Mr Philips said. I think
:26:24. > :26:32.it is equally important, because effectively, their role is a
:26:32. > :26:35.mediation role. They are set up as way to ensure a speedy cheap
:26:35. > :26:39.resolution of people have about the way the press has behaved. If it is
:26:39. > :26:43.going to be a mediator, it needs to have the confidence of both sides.
:26:43. > :26:46.The government's saeped report by the former Liberal Democrat leader
:26:46. > :26:49.Lord Ashdown into Britain's response into international
:26:49. > :26:54.disasters. In his document published in March, Lord Ashdown
:26:54. > :26:58.said changes to the system could save lives. He wants to improve
:26:58. > :27:01.local resilience in at risk countries and help make the
:27:01. > :27:04.leadership of international responses better and more joined up.
:27:04. > :27:09.The review followed concerns about the effectiveness of the UK
:27:09. > :27:13.response to among other things the Haiti earthquake. Lord Ashdown
:27:13. > :27:18.argued the large numbers killed in the disaster were in part because
:27:18. > :27:22.of infrastructure and the intablt to respond. The International
:27:22. > :27:26.Development Secretary welcomed the report. Lord Ashdown's reports sets
:27:26. > :27:31.a challenging agenda for the 21st century. It recognises that while
:27:31. > :27:34.disasters are nothing new, we have experiencing a sudden increase in
:27:34. > :27:38.their intensity -- intensity and frequency. It makes clear this
:27:38. > :27:43.trend will only grow with climate change, population growth, and
:27:43. > :27:49.greater urban anyisation. The review concluded that Dyfed has
:27:49. > :27:52.played a strong patrol in improving the quality of response. This is an
:27:52. > :27:55.area where Britain is well- respected and well regarded, but
:27:55. > :27:59.there is no room for complacency which is why I commissioned the
:27:59. > :28:04.review and why this Government will take action to implement it. There
:28:04. > :28:09.are some fundamental principles that will guide our response to
:28:09. > :28:14.humanitarian emergencies. First, we will continue to apply the core
:28:14. > :28:19.principles of humanity, impartiality and neutrality, to all
:28:19. > :28:23.British Government humanitarian action. Second, we will respect and
:28:23. > :28:27.promote respect for international humanitarian law. Third, and
:28:27. > :28:33.crucially, we will be motivated not by political security or economic
:28:33. > :28:35.objectives, but by need, and need alone. The Ashdown report is an
:28:35. > :28:38.important step forward. In Government, Labour provided a
:28:38. > :28:43.strong lead in Government on this issue which produced real reform
:28:43. > :28:48.but we know there is more to do. As Lord Ashdown said humanitarian work
:28:48. > :28:52.cannot be the sticking plaster for a lack of political action, but it
:28:52. > :28:57.can make an important contribution to alleviating suffering round the
:28:57. > :29:01.world. Today's welcome words, now need to be transferred into the
:29:01. > :29:06.concrete action for this needed to enshower that in times of crisis it