:00:00. > :00:33.Tonight, more Nelson Mandela's death. We look back at the influence
:00:34. > :00:36.he had on Northern Ireland politics. Also, Tonight, the damning findings
:00:37. > :00:39.of the Smithwick Tribunal that Gardai colluded with the IRA in the
:00:40. > :00:43.murders of two top police officers. We'll have reaction from politicians
:00:44. > :00:51.and a former head of RUC Special Branch.
:00:52. > :00:55.Joining me in Commentators' Corner tonight, Susan McKay and Liam
:00:56. > :00:58.Clarke. Plus the view from our man on the hill. And you can, of course,
:00:59. > :01:02.follow the programme on Twitter - that's @BBCtheview.
:01:03. > :01:06.First tonight, the news that not a Mandela has died. He was 95 and
:01:07. > :01:14.South Africa's first black president. After 27 years in risen,
:01:15. > :01:17.he left -- left the country -- lead the country from white -based rule.
:01:18. > :01:23.He had been receiving care in hospital. In a statement, the
:01:24. > :01:28.president, Jacob Zuma, said Mr Mandela had departed and was at
:01:29. > :01:34.peace. We have been looking back -- back at his remarkable life.
:01:35. > :01:37.When Nelson Mandela walked free from prison, Northern Ireland was still
:01:38. > :01:42.locked in violence. But those steps he took towards a peaceful future
:01:43. > :01:49.inspired others to follow his path out of conflict. He has always been
:01:50. > :01:54.an inspirational figure in my life. I have no doubt that many others,
:01:55. > :02:03.even outside of Sinn Fein, recognise his worth as a human being and a
:02:04. > :02:06.leader. If someone who inspired -- he is someone who inspired not only
:02:07. > :02:13.his own people but many others, like us, recognise that even in the
:02:14. > :02:19.darkest times, many good things are possible. He used his position as
:02:20. > :02:24.president to build peace, and Gerry Adams when he was still a political
:02:25. > :02:31.pariah for some. So this was one powerful handshake. We fully support
:02:32. > :02:36.the peace process. We will do everything in our power to support
:02:37. > :02:46.all the parties engaged in the search for peace. We have got the
:02:47. > :02:53.ability to resolve problems. True to his workmen Mandela's South Africa
:02:54. > :03:06.offered an escape from the pressures of the peace talks.
:03:07. > :03:13.Disrespect for their point of view, coupled with his famous charisma,
:03:14. > :03:22.soon won over Unionists. -- fests respect. He said something profound,
:03:23. > :03:33.which was you don't make friends with your friends, you make friends
:03:34. > :03:36.with your enemies. One had the expression of a fully rounded
:03:37. > :03:40.personality. He also had a good sense of humour. Again, it fits in
:03:41. > :03:44.with that persona. Obviously there sense of humour. Again, it fits in
:03:45. > :03:51.was a keen intelligence there as well. He was fully aware of the
:03:52. > :03:58.contribution he had made. His only appearance in Belfast, however, was
:03:59. > :04:07.on a wall. He did visit Dublin a few times, grateful for help in fighting
:04:08. > :04:14.apartheid. The 1980s, South African goods were not available in this
:04:15. > :04:18.store. We are asking people to go on strike and not passed the picket
:04:19. > :04:24.line. The more people that pass, the longer we will be here. In Belfast,
:04:25. > :04:32.some students protested against apartheid. It wasn't quite
:04:33. > :04:36.unanimous. Some people will have had their doubts about Mandela and
:04:37. > :04:40.thought it was a terrorist. For most people, he was seen as a very
:04:41. > :04:48.powerful figure, very inspirational, somebody who led his people and
:04:49. > :04:55.tried to lead his people to peaceful resolution. When he was given an
:04:56. > :04:59.honorary doctorate in 2008, he was too frail to attend the ceremony but
:05:00. > :05:06.made a special message and thanked students for their support. My
:05:07. > :05:15.grandchildren will be impressed when I can boast an honorary doctorate
:05:16. > :05:19.from such an esteemed institution. He was, in the words of one
:05:20. > :05:25.nationalist politician, not just a friend to Northern Ireland but a
:05:26. > :05:31.friend to the world. I'm joined now by Adrian Gallagher,
:05:32. > :05:37.a former professor of other tics -- of politics. Of remarkable man, and
:05:38. > :05:42.obviously people feel that in South Africa but you can see the global
:05:43. > :05:47.response. I was in South Africa on the 18th of July of this year, which
:05:48. > :05:51.was his birthday. The outpouring then was quite extraordinary. The
:05:52. > :05:59.affection for him in South Africa runs across all political lines. He
:06:00. > :06:06.had a remarkable place in South Africans' hearts. You will have
:06:07. > :06:13.watched the outpouring of grief this evening in the last hour two. And
:06:14. > :06:18.that of the back of several months of knowing the inevitable was
:06:19. > :06:24.coming. Yes. As an example of somebody who promoted
:06:25. > :06:32.reconciliation, he obviously resonated with a lot of people. His
:06:33. > :06:37.self-sacrifice... Not only that he spent so many years in jail, but
:06:38. > :06:42.even more incredible is that he spent just one term as president of
:06:43. > :06:48.South Africa. He could have gone on to be president until his death, but
:06:49. > :06:51.he decided, and it was a characteristic of Mandela that he
:06:52. > :06:55.was a strategic thinker, he decided it would be better for the
:06:56. > :07:04.transition Nikki Kidd quit after only one term of this -- if he could
:07:05. > :07:12.quit after only one term of office. It is possible to overplay his
:07:13. > :07:17.significance in the politics of Northern Ireland. But how
:07:18. > :07:20.significant was here in shaping the approach to reconciliation?
:07:21. > :07:25.Eventually he was quite important. But it did not start out promising.
:07:26. > :07:32.Early on, he gave an interview with Bob Geldof in which he put forward a
:07:33. > :07:37.straightforward anti-colonial view of Northern Ireland. It was odd
:07:38. > :07:40.because he was such an admirer of political institutions in
:07:41. > :07:45.Westminster. He came out with the idea that it was legitimate for
:07:46. > :07:52.people to struggle for a united Ireland. He was also a realistic
:07:53. > :07:58.advocate of negotiation. Once the peace process started, he was fully
:07:59. > :08:03.on board for helping the peace process. The fact that he enjoyed
:08:04. > :08:10.the trust of Sinn Fein is really quite important. He was always
:08:11. > :08:13.assisting them towards negotiating a deal but recognised the limits of
:08:14. > :08:18.their position. Was that an important influence that he had in
:08:19. > :08:24.moving Republicans away from their support for terror? I think so. He
:08:25. > :08:29.helped members of Sinn Fein who wanted to go that way. He helped
:08:30. > :08:35.Sinn Fein leaders who were inclined in that direction so he was useful
:08:36. > :08:38.to the leadership of Sinn Fein in persuading the rank and file but
:08:39. > :08:43.this was the way to go and that they were not selling out the
:08:44. > :08:54.revelation. -- that this was the way to go. Lord Trimble also referred to
:08:55. > :08:57.his deep intelligence, his obvious intelligence, and his sense of
:08:58. > :09:03.humour. That is never bad thing in politics. A self-deprecating sense
:09:04. > :09:11.of humour. He was a person who was very self-aware. I think he had an
:09:12. > :09:17.ability to look outside himself and not take himself too seriously. He
:09:18. > :09:24.did not stand on ceremony. He could be quite tetchy as times -- at times
:09:25. > :09:31.as well. There were times during his presidency when he got annoyed at
:09:32. > :09:35.the NGO community. If he had stayed on another term as president, his
:09:36. > :09:42.reputation would have suffered. In the end, he made a wise choice in
:09:43. > :09:47.recognising that he would be a greater influence outside the
:09:48. > :09:50.political community. Peter Robinson has just tweeted that Nelson
:09:51. > :09:58.Mandela's death is a massive loss for South Africa and he was a true
:09:59. > :10:02.world figure. There is unanimity of opinion as far as our politicians
:10:03. > :10:08.are concerned. We have heard from Jerry McGahan -- Deri Adams and
:10:09. > :10:12.Martin McGuinness. It is hard to think of anybody else who would
:10:13. > :10:17.enjoy such support across the spectrum that he achieved. Was part
:10:18. > :10:21.of his challenge that he put it up to other politicians? If he, after
:10:22. > :10:25.27 years of incarceration, could come out and shake hands with his
:10:26. > :10:31.former jailers, if he could do that, then anybody could do that?
:10:32. > :10:38.Absolutely. One of my injury memories of Mandela was when he went
:10:39. > :10:41.to the stadium and told the crowd there, in the middle of a very
:10:42. > :10:49.serious fight between supporters of the ANC and the Freedom party, he
:10:50. > :11:00.said, throw away your knives and guns. He said Terry -- he said so to
:11:01. > :11:07.bring crowds. He took on people who profoundly disagree with his
:11:08. > :11:13.sentiments. He was absolutely right. Fascinating to hear your thoughts.
:11:14. > :11:16.Thanks indeed for joining us. Much more reaction to that developed in
:11:17. > :11:21.the story later in the programme. Before that, let's pause to talk
:11:22. > :11:24.about the story that has been leading the headlines here this past
:11:25. > :11:40.week. Those are the findings of the Smithwick tribunal. On Tuesday the
:11:41. > :11:43.findings of Judge Peter Smithwick's inquiry concluded that members of
:11:44. > :11:45.the Gardai colluded in the IRA murders of Chief Superintendent
:11:46. > :11:49.Harry Breen and Superintendent Bob Buchanan. They were shot dead in an
:11:50. > :11:52.ambush in 1989 in south Armagh and were the highest-ranked policemen to
:11:53. > :11:56.be shot during the Troubles. We'll discuss the issues in a moment, but
:11:57. > :11:59.first a reminder of what led to the setting up of the inquiry, the main
:12:00. > :12:02.findings and the fallout. The ambush, as they returned,
:12:03. > :12:08.prompted suspicions that they have been set up by somebody in the Garda
:12:09. > :12:13.station they had just left, a claim rejected by the Chief Constable and
:12:14. > :12:19.Police Federation. I think that's percolation -- that speculation is
:12:20. > :12:29.ill informed. The information we have confirms... The enquiry was set
:12:30. > :12:32.up by the Irish government and found there had been collusion between
:12:33. > :13:00.somebody in the Garda station and the IRA. I apologise without
:13:01. > :13:04.elevation -- reservation. In a moment I'll be talking to the
:13:05. > :13:08.DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson, Dolores Kelly, the deputy leader of the
:13:09. > :13:14.SDLP, and the former head of RUC Special Branch, Raymond White.
:13:15. > :13:21.Raymond White, you worked along the border. Were you aware of the
:13:22. > :13:29.suspicions about collusion? I worked on the border for a short period in
:13:30. > :13:35.the 1970s, when contact with the Garda was not of a big nature. There
:13:36. > :13:41.was that element of suspicion which still existed in the Garda, that the
:13:42. > :13:45.TUC were part of the problem in the north. We had individual contact
:13:46. > :13:53.with individual officers. And not conscious of anything relating
:13:54. > :13:58.suspicions about collusion. The judge said there was speculation and
:13:59. > :14:04.it was an example of the prioritising of political expediency
:14:05. > :14:12.on the part of both police forces. Effectively, a cover-up? In one
:14:13. > :14:18.sense it can be looked at that way. But the Chief Constable of the day
:14:19. > :14:22.did not have what you would call a smoking gun. He did not have any
:14:23. > :14:27.hard intelligence that he could present. He had a judgement to make.
:14:28. > :14:35.Do make an accusation that I can't support in any way? Or do I preserve
:14:36. > :14:39.the newly formed cross-border relations? Without the evidence, I
:14:40. > :14:51.don't think the Chief Constable that they had the capacity to say any
:14:52. > :14:56.more. We know from records how the issue of cross-border security was
:14:57. > :15:02.used as a political tool between the governments and it was switched on
:15:03. > :15:05.or off. It was not the first time that we know the cross-border
:15:06. > :15:10.conferences were cancelled because of certain things that happened in
:15:11. > :15:15.the North. Jeffrey Donaldson, do the findings go as far as you would have
:15:16. > :15:21.liked? In terms of the evidence presented, I think the judge reached
:15:22. > :15:25.a very fair conclusion. I still believe that there were individual
:15:26. > :15:29.officers against whom there is evidence of collusion and I would
:15:30. > :15:33.have liked to have seen that more definitively in the report but
:15:34. > :15:40.nevertheless, I welcome the fact that the judge came to a very clear
:15:41. > :15:46.conclusion. At Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan were betrayed by one or
:15:47. > :15:53.more Garda on that day and the information passed on as individuals
:15:54. > :15:59.and assisted in the ambush that resulted in their deaths. He made it
:16:00. > :16:05.clear that certain gardai might have been involved in inappropriate
:16:06. > :16:08.relationships with the IRA but he has not been able to produce
:16:09. > :16:16.evidence to substantiate specific acts relating to this double murder!
:16:17. > :16:22.And others after eight years. One of the Garda named in the report, and
:16:23. > :16:27.the allegation is that just as Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan left .doc
:16:28. > :16:34.policed Asian, this Garda stood outside and signalled to a member of
:16:35. > :16:38.the IRA so there is a degree of evidence and I accept the judge has
:16:39. > :16:42.not concluded there is sufficient evidence to be conclusive in terms
:16:43. > :16:47.of individual acts but he has been very clear that there was collusion
:16:48. > :16:54.and that we should not detract from that. It is very serious and when
:16:55. > :16:59.one bears in mind that the Garda Commissioner was given information
:17:00. > :17:03.by another member of the Garda about the actions of at least one of those
:17:04. > :17:08.who are named in the report and failed to act upon that, it raises
:17:09. > :17:14.the question as to whether, if it had been acted upon, whether lives
:17:15. > :17:19.might have been saved. Dolores Kelly, is this a pretty damning
:17:20. > :17:23.report? There have been shock waves throughout Ireland. Judge Smithwick
:17:24. > :17:31.was fearless in his approach and he has shown great independence and the
:17:32. > :17:34.report stretches to over 1600 pages and two days later, it will not be
:17:35. > :17:41.sufficient time to do justice in relation to its findings but one of
:17:42. > :17:45.those findings is that the needs of victims and having the truth about
:17:46. > :17:50.what happened should not be set against a political short-term
:17:51. > :17:57.expediency. It took eight years and the remaining hundreds of witnesses
:17:58. > :18:01.and this is a copy in front of us. This gives people a sense of what a
:18:02. > :18:07.substantial piece of work it is. The fact is, it says that we know that
:18:08. > :18:13.collusion took place. Not necessarily in the deaths of these
:18:14. > :18:20.officers but there was collusion? It clearly says it was collusion in
:18:21. > :18:22.relation to one, two or three Garda and that was not institutional
:18:23. > :18:29.collusion, such as has been fined in relation to allegations... But
:18:30. > :18:36.collusion is collusion? It is always hard to get to the truth of all of
:18:37. > :18:40.it and in relation to trying to see that there is justice done in
:18:41. > :18:45.relation to bringing prosecutions, it is very difficult and appeals
:18:46. > :18:50.have gone out for anyone, even with any evidence, to bring that forward.
:18:51. > :18:54.So the people tried these murders. Will it ever happen? If the judge
:18:55. > :19:02.could not reduce evidence after eight years, who can reduce the
:19:03. > :19:07.evidence? Many victims know that they will not get justice but they
:19:08. > :19:11.want the truth and tonight we talk about Nelson Mandela and when he was
:19:12. > :19:16.resident of South Africa, he set up the truth commission and this does
:19:17. > :19:20.reach across to the ongoing talks with political parties with Richard
:19:21. > :19:25.Haass and that set the standard. Jeffrey Donaldson, do you believe
:19:26. > :19:30.there is any possibility of prosecution at this stage? It will
:19:31. > :19:35.be difficult, unless there is any further evidence that comes forward.
:19:36. > :19:39.What is damning about this report, and I accept what Dolores Kelly
:19:40. > :19:45.says, I do not believe there were hundreds of Garda colluded with the
:19:46. > :19:48.IRA, but nevertheless, first of all, the leadership of the Garda at the
:19:49. > :19:55.time failed to act upon information that they had about the actions of
:19:56. > :20:00.individual officers and a failed to recognise collusion in this case.
:20:01. > :20:05.And the Garda of today failed to cooperate fully with the Smithwick
:20:06. > :20:09.and quarry. That is not right. Dash-macro enquiry. The government
:20:10. > :20:16.needs to look at the conclusions of this report. This is not stop with
:20:17. > :20:20.the Buchanan case, it went further, and these issues are serious and
:20:21. > :20:26.they need to be examined in the context of dealing with the legacy
:20:27. > :20:28.of the troubled past. Has the Irish government apologised fully and
:20:29. > :20:36.unequivocably and all of these issues will be the dad? -- will be
:20:37. > :20:42.looked at. I welcome that statement. And I also welcome the commitment
:20:43. > :20:46.they have given to examining these issues and to examine them in detail
:20:47. > :20:50.and we shall seek to ensure that happens and they follow through and
:20:51. > :20:56.this report is given the priority that in dotted play -- that it
:20:57. > :21:01.undoubtedly requires. The judge said there was a culture that needs to be
:21:02. > :21:07.addressed. We're not talking about 20 years ago, this is up-to-date and
:21:08. > :21:13.it needs to be tackled. What do you make of the way the then Chief
:21:14. > :21:18.Constable handle the situation? Henoch that on the head and has been
:21:19. > :21:21.proven to be wrong? The RUC and the Garda at the time perhaps did not
:21:22. > :21:27.have the information we have but nevertheless, they were perhaps too
:21:28. > :21:31.quick to rule out collusion and should have been an investigation
:21:32. > :21:37.because the allegations were made at the time. Do you think they thought
:21:38. > :21:42.there was collusion or do this simply not want to admit that
:21:43. > :21:47.because it could be dangerous? Do you think it was not something they
:21:48. > :21:52.considered? At the time, there was improving cooperation between the
:21:53. > :21:57.RUC and the gardai and it might not have been expedient at the time to
:21:58. > :22:01.pursue further those lines on collusion but it is evident and
:22:02. > :22:08.there was evidence given to the Smithwick enquiry by senior officers
:22:09. > :22:11.that they were aware of the activities of individual officers at
:22:12. > :22:14.that time so there was knowledge that there was inappropriate
:22:15. > :22:19.behaviour by some members of the Garda and there was an awareness of
:22:20. > :22:22.that and I can understand the Chief Constable might not have had the
:22:23. > :22:26.information on this specific case at that time but there was a line of
:22:27. > :22:31.enquiry that should have been pursued and it was not. Is it
:22:32. > :22:38.significant that Dolores Kelly says this was not systemic? The old
:22:39. > :22:41.argument, a couple of bad apples? I take issue with what Dolores Kelly
:22:42. > :22:47.says in terms of the RUC having systemic collusion into it. That has
:22:48. > :22:53.not been proven in any form. There were bad apples, we accept that, and
:22:54. > :22:57.we find them out. One of the significant things in relation to
:22:58. > :23:03.the Smithwick Tribunal is aged not begin and end with the castigation
:23:04. > :23:07.of the Garda. Or any apology from the southern government, no matter
:23:08. > :23:13.how hurtful. One of the key things added what I'd was the issue of how
:23:14. > :23:16.the border itself was used by the provisional IRA to conduct its
:23:17. > :23:22.murderous campaign. In considering that, it behoves the Irish
:23:23. > :23:28.government to look at the other 178 murders carried out in the border
:23:29. > :23:30.counties, where there was substantial evidence that the people
:23:31. > :23:35.that carry these out came from the South of Ireland, carried out those
:23:36. > :23:40.activities and returned. Uniquely, within Smithwick, the IRA made out
:23:41. > :23:47.of their own minds a declaration as to how the border was used. Is that
:23:48. > :23:50.a reasonable demand? We need all the parties to the truth and put the
:23:51. > :23:54.needs of victims at the centre of any process but I take issue with
:23:55. > :24:00.those earlier comments in terms of systemic collusion. When we look at
:24:01. > :24:04.the findings of the Police Ombudsman in relation to the relation --
:24:05. > :24:12.recent publication of the murder of an hundred 20 people in relation to
:24:13. > :24:19.gangs in the mid-Ulster area. We can deal with that. What was in those
:24:20. > :24:24.little allies was obtained from the Historical Enquiries Team, which was
:24:25. > :24:28.obtained by RUC records. It was nothing discovered, it was already
:24:29. > :24:32.known and those issues were on the table within the police service. I
:24:33. > :24:37.want some time to talk about the passing of Nelson Mandela. You were
:24:38. > :24:43.briefly in that film by Martina Purdy, paying tribute to that man.
:24:44. > :24:48.Your leader has paid a very warm welcome to him tonight. As a global
:24:49. > :24:54.figure who will be hugely missed by everyone. Presumably, you would not
:24:55. > :24:57.disagree? We are very saddened by that news from South Africa and
:24:58. > :25:01.there is no doubt that whatever Nelson Mandela has done in the past
:25:02. > :25:07.and I do not agree with some of those things, but he did become
:25:08. > :25:10.statesmen that rose above many others and when I met him in South
:25:11. > :25:15.Africa it was evident that he had completed a personal journey, he had
:25:16. > :25:20.embraced peace and embraced reconciliation. And I think that was
:25:21. > :25:26.a very powerful factor in bringing peace to South Africa. Dolores
:25:27. > :25:29.Kelly? One of the first actions I ever took was to join the
:25:30. > :25:32.anti-apartheid movement at university and Nelson Mandela was
:25:33. > :25:38.always a great inspiration to myself and one of the comments that we
:25:39. > :25:42.should listen to is how to walk in the other person's shoes and try to
:25:43. > :25:47.build reconciliation across this island. Raymond, you cannot say you
:25:48. > :25:53.met him but you were at a conference in South Africa at which he
:25:54. > :25:58.delivered a keynote address? 13 years ago, it was an international
:25:59. > :26:01.conference on criminal reform and he opened that and he came across as a
:26:02. > :26:06.very warm and direct individual and you really felt that what he had to
:26:07. > :26:11.say was from the heart. He was one of those speakers that took time
:26:12. > :26:18.afterwards to basically go around and introduce himself to people. He
:26:19. > :26:20.left a lasting impression. It was remarkable, across-the-board,
:26:21. > :26:28.internationally and at home, just how much he was revered. Are the
:26:29. > :26:38.serious lessons? Can we learn from him? -- or there are serious
:26:39. > :26:42.lessons? After 27 years in prison, he could shake hands with the people
:26:43. > :26:46.who were responsible for having kept and therefore such a very long
:26:47. > :26:54.period. And go on to be universally acclaimed. That is quite a trick. It
:26:55. > :27:01.is undoubtedly, in a very divided society. And the time we spent there
:27:02. > :27:03.was well spent, and we learned a lot. Not just from Nelson Mandela
:27:04. > :27:09.but from other leaders as well. About the peace process, how that
:27:10. > :27:14.operated, and we were able to apply some of those lessons to Northern
:27:15. > :27:17.Ireland. We were still on a journey. We are still dealing with the legacy
:27:18. > :27:24.of our troubled past and that shall take time. 30 years of conflict, you
:27:25. > :27:28.do not remove all of the pain and hurt that has built up over that
:27:29. > :27:37.period of time. That will require bold steps, courage and it requires
:27:38. > :27:42.truth and justice. One of the disappointing things with respect,
:27:43. > :27:47.you listen to the Sinn Fein leadership talking about the example
:27:48. > :27:51.that Nelson Mandela set, but I am afraid that when I look at the
:27:52. > :27:56.example they set, in terms of reconciliation and in terms of truth
:27:57. > :28:02.and justice, they have some way to go. Do you accept that? I think the
:28:03. > :28:06.comments of Gerry Adams in relation to the Smithwick tribunal have been
:28:07. > :28:12.appalling and the people of Ireland across the island have been
:28:13. > :28:16.displayed at his reaction to what is a very lengthy investigation which
:28:17. > :28:19.carries a lot of recommendations and for him to dismiss that as tittle
:28:20. > :28:25.tattle within hours of its publication does a great disservice
:28:26. > :28:30.to the office. We need to leave that there. We did invite Sinn Fein to
:28:31. > :28:40.take hard and that was declined. -- take part. That year the thoughts of
:28:41. > :28:49.Susan McKay and Liam Clarke. Good evening. Let us hear the thoughts.
:28:50. > :28:57.Let's talk about the findings. Were you surprised? I was quite surprised
:28:58. > :29:03.by the forcefulness with which the judge addressed his task. I think it
:29:04. > :29:09.was striking that he used a definition of collusion which was
:29:10. > :29:16.closer to the definition which Judge Cory introduced rather than the one
:29:17. > :29:23.used by the silver. We need to bear in mind that he was very critical of
:29:24. > :29:27.the Garda, the way in which the Garda Commissioner and the then
:29:28. > :29:31.Chief Constable also were dismissive of those things, and it is not just
:29:32. > :29:35.a matter of a depressing culture of the Nile rather than just individual
:29:36. > :29:40.gardai who got themselves involved in these kind of activities. The
:29:41. > :29:45.reaction to Smithwick has been appropriate. People have been deeply
:29:46. > :29:51.shocked and I think the way the Irish government has reacted has
:29:52. > :29:57.been appropriate. It is striking that we have just one final
:29:58. > :30:02.outstanding enquiries still to happen, for Pat Finucane, which the
:30:03. > :30:10.British government is still denying to the family. Liam, your thoughts?
:30:11. > :30:13.Is this as you would have expected? I did not expect that to be so
:30:14. > :30:17.strong. I remembered at the time police denying collusion and I
:30:18. > :30:21.thought perhaps there would be something more general. It was a
:30:22. > :30:25.very effective enquiry and even though it took eight years, it
:30:26. > :30:31.brought out a lot of information, more than any other enquiry that has
:30:32. > :30:38.gone before. Perhaps more than even the bloody Sunday in quarry. A
:30:39. > :30:41.remarkable piece of work. And he did criticise Irish society, there was a
:30:42. > :30:46.culture of closing ranks in the face of scandal rather than facing up to
:30:47. > :30:52.it and that is something we can learn from. The question for some
:30:53. > :30:59.people is, can be prosecutions at the stage or not? It seems
:31:00. > :31:03.unlikely. The longer things go one, it is less likely and we get the
:31:04. > :31:09.occasional one. The one area where there might be one is Drew Harris,
:31:10. > :31:16.he pointed out at the end, all the moment intelligence, and that was
:31:17. > :31:21.never examined by the enquiry. Apparently it mentioned a gardener
:31:22. > :31:25.who was not named in the enquiry, so it is all this possible something
:31:26. > :31:29.will be followed up but I remember the Taoiseach saying he thought
:31:30. > :31:36.there was a remote possibility. Is that an issue? You live and work in
:31:37. > :31:40.Dublin, is at an issue? Prosecution is not the first thing people think
:31:41. > :31:43.about, and in the Republic of Ireland and for a lot of
:31:44. > :31:47.nationalists in the North as well, people note the fact that Judge
:31:48. > :31:56.Smithwick talked about not finding a smoking gun, whereas as Laura Scali
:31:57. > :32:01.mentioned, -- Dolores Kelly, in the Barron report, and some others of
:32:02. > :32:05.the reports into collusion, with loyalist paramilitaries and security
:32:06. > :32:08.forces, they have find ample evidence of smoking guns and we need
:32:09. > :32:14.to have some sort of agreed standard on these things, we cannot ignore
:32:15. > :32:23.some findings of collusion and welcome others. Unfortunately,
:32:24. > :32:25.unionism is inclined to do that in relation to the culture of collusion
:32:26. > :32:33.that has been revealed in relation to the security forces and
:32:34. > :32:38.loyalists. Just a moment, we have more reaction to the death of Nelson
:32:39. > :32:42.Mandela. I am joined live by the Deputy First Minister, Martin
:32:43. > :33:01.McGuinness. He is a trade to Japan. Thank you for joining us. -- on a
:33:02. > :33:10.trade visit. What are your thoughts? Like everybody else, this news was
:33:11. > :33:14.not unexpected but still so sad. The world has lost a great friend, a
:33:15. > :33:21.great statesman, someone who has made a massive contribution to
:33:22. > :33:27.freedom and peace in South Africa. He made his own contribution through
:33:28. > :33:34.his government and his officials to peace in the North of Ireland. We
:33:35. > :33:39.all have fond memories of that trip to South Africa in 1997, just four
:33:40. > :33:48.weeks after I was elected as a Westminster MP. I led a delegation
:33:49. > :33:56.for talks in South Africa. This is a huge loss. He is a world figure, a
:33:57. > :34:01.true statesman, someone who, yes, was a freedom fighter, also a
:34:02. > :34:09.peacemaker, and also a reconcilable. An example to us all. I wonder if I
:34:10. > :34:11.could just ask you for your personal reactions for the significant part
:34:12. > :34:19.he played in persuading Republicans to move away from their support for
:34:20. > :34:22.physical force? It is what we discussed with the professor earlier
:34:23. > :34:30.on. He said he thought it was significant. Can you give us your
:34:31. > :34:40.personal perspective? Nelson Mandela -- Nelson Mandela... Whoever said
:34:41. > :34:48.that, it was a great misrepresentation. The peace process
:34:49. > :34:57.began in the early 90s. We were very much involved in it. President
:34:58. > :35:01.Mandela realised that a political agreement was worthy of support. He
:35:02. > :35:06.did everything in his power, not just through our delegation is going
:35:07. > :35:13.to South Africa in 1997 but also the massive contributions made by many
:35:14. > :35:21.of his ministers and people coming from the other side, they all made
:35:22. > :35:29.contributions. He had a very clear view of the underlying issues of the
:35:30. > :35:33.conflict, issues of inequality and injustice, discrimination and
:35:34. > :35:40.domination. They had to come to an end. He wanted them to come to an
:35:41. > :35:46.end through a peace process. Do you think he was particularly
:35:47. > :35:54.supportive... Sorry, we just lost you for a second. Adrian was a
:35:55. > :36:03.mining us of the interview he did with Bob Geldof in which he
:36:04. > :36:07.supported the Irish Rover Barbican -- the Irish Republican worldview.
:36:08. > :36:10.He was a huge supporter of the Westminster democratic model also
:36:11. > :36:15.and there seemed to be a contribution there. Did you feel he
:36:16. > :36:24.was personally supportive of the way you saw things within Sinn Fein? Or
:36:25. > :36:30.was it a broader position? I think... The world knows that not a
:36:31. > :36:37.Mandela and the ANC were very close to us in Sinn Fein. They recognised
:36:38. > :36:42.the struggle we were involved in for peace and justice and freedom and it
:36:43. > :36:48.was a legitimate struggle. That was his position. He was also hugely
:36:49. > :36:53.supportive of the efforts to bring about a cease-fire, to bring about
:36:54. > :36:59.peace negotiations and to get a political agreement. It is clear
:37:00. > :37:04.that he was wholeheartedly in support of the peace process and the
:37:05. > :37:11.need for reconciliation in the North of Ireland. We have learned a lot
:37:12. > :37:17.from him. Various people will make their own interpretations of where
:37:18. > :37:19.he stood on all of it. I think the line has dropped. We will leave it
:37:20. > :37:28.there. Martin McGuinness, thanks for joining us. He is in Japan with the
:37:29. > :37:34.First Minister, on a trade mission. Let's hear again from our
:37:35. > :37:40.commentators. Your thoughts on the death of Nelson Mandela? I think he
:37:41. > :37:45.such a huge loss to humanity. It is the massive generosity of spirit the
:37:46. > :37:49.man had. It was unmatched. The thing I remember most about his visit to
:37:50. > :37:54.Ireland was when he came to the Republic of Ireland, to Dublin, he
:37:55. > :37:59.made a point of making -- meeting the store strikers who refuse to
:38:00. > :38:05.handle South African fruit because of the apartheid regime. That was
:38:06. > :38:09.typical of Nelson Mandela, that he was aware of the importance of the
:38:10. > :38:14.individual person, however lowly their position in society, the
:38:15. > :38:23.importance of them taking a stand on principle. He was very inspiring in
:38:24. > :38:32.that way. Interesting that he visited but -- Dublin but never made
:38:33. > :38:45.it to Belfast. He combines fortitude, sticking with things...
:38:46. > :38:49.He could make a break and forgive. We have not got the trick of that in
:38:50. > :38:54.Northern Ireland, sticking with our principles yet moving on the right
:38:55. > :39:02.moment. Thank you both very much for joining us. That is it. Join me for
:39:03. > :39:03.Sunday Politics at 11.35 on BBC One. Well though, the by.