:00:24. > :00:29.political stage. Launched this evening, NI21 wants a political
:00:29. > :00:37.debate that unites Northern Ireland rather than divides it. But is there
:00:37. > :00:45.the room or the appetite for another party here?
:00:45. > :00:48.It sounds to me like a road number. Take the NI21 West. It doesn't put
:00:48. > :00:51.me off but I would need the 21 explained.
:00:51. > :00:54.I'll be asking Basil McCrea and John McCallister if they believe their
:00:54. > :00:57.party can really herald a new dawn in local politics.
:00:57. > :01:00.And with three peers accused of agreeing to do parliamentary work
:01:00. > :01:04.for payment, we ask if the House of Lords is fast becoming the House of
:01:04. > :01:08.Disrepute? And we'll hear what our professors make of all that and more
:01:08. > :01:18.in Commentators' Corner. And you can of course follow the programme on
:01:18. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:26.for better" - the words of John McCallister as he and Basil McCrea
:01:26. > :01:29.launched their new party, NI21, in Belfast tonight. In a moment we'll
:01:29. > :01:32.hear from the two men, who join me live in the studio. But first
:01:33. > :01:42.Stephen Walker, who revealed the name of the party earlier this week,
:01:43. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :02:00.Using one of Belfast 's newest buildings, they wanted to send a
:02:00. > :02:03.message that their new party was modern and all about the politics of
:02:03. > :02:10.the 21st century. They are also keen to stress that many of their party
:02:10. > :02:13.members have never been involved in politics before. Tina McKenzie is
:02:13. > :02:18.new to the political world. Experienced in business, she is the
:02:18. > :02:23.party 's chairwoman. I have worked internationally, across the UK, and
:02:23. > :02:26.I have never got involved in politics. Most people in Northern
:02:26. > :02:32.Ireland feel quite different gate from the process. Now it is time to
:02:32. > :02:35.get those people involved. But what about the name, NI21?
:02:35. > :02:42.It was changed -- chosen to symbolise Northern Ireland in the
:02:42. > :02:48.21st century. When it finds favour with the electorate? - macro will it
:02:48. > :02:53.find. Sounds to me like a road number. Take the NI21 West. It does
:02:53. > :03:02.not sound like a political party. NI21? You would think they could
:03:02. > :03:08.come up with something better than that. Something more catchy. NI21?
:03:08. > :03:12.They're not even number one on the list!
:03:12. > :03:15.The phrases don't mean anything. It is what they are about, what they
:03:15. > :03:21.are going to do. That is what the issue is. Not the name. The name is
:03:21. > :03:27.nothing. It is an all right name, I guess. Not exciting. I guess it is
:03:27. > :03:31.quite short. It is a break from the other sort of names you have got
:03:31. > :03:36.established. It does not put me off. I would need
:03:36. > :03:41.the 21 explained. Basil McCrea and Don McAllister say
:03:41. > :03:43.their party is prounion, support the Belfast agreement and they say that
:03:43. > :03:49.religious persuasion should not define political beliefs. But can
:03:49. > :03:56.they really make an impact? The challenge here is to try to
:03:56. > :03:58.carve out a distinctive area or space for themselves between the
:03:58. > :04:01.Alliance and Northern Ireland conservatives. Many people have said
:04:01. > :04:07.that they are overlapping with those parties. That is definitely a
:04:07. > :04:11.challenge. They are looking for a voter that is socially liberal,
:04:11. > :04:14.maybe financially conservative. That has been said in the past. A lot of
:04:14. > :04:20.those voters would fit into the Alliance or the Northern Ireland
:04:20. > :04:24.conservative camp. Are there enough of intimate the party a go?
:04:24. > :04:30.There are, but they have to get them out. There's a lot of these voters
:04:30. > :04:35.who have turned away from Stormont. Traditionally, they look to
:04:35. > :04:42.Westminster as a powerhouse. They don't take Stormont seriously. So
:04:42. > :04:47.can NI21 attract people who in the past have felt let down here?
:04:47. > :04:50.Kirsty is 21 and is a law and politics graduate.
:04:50. > :04:55.It is new and fresh and it is going to in gauge people who have not been
:04:55. > :04:59.engaged before. That interests me. I had been
:04:59. > :05:04.switched off to the political system. Young people want to get
:05:04. > :05:08.involved in the new politics. John McAllister and Basil McCrea are the
:05:08. > :05:14.public face of this new party. To some, that relationship will be
:05:14. > :05:18.critical in the months ahead. I think it will be crucial to see
:05:18. > :05:23.how they work together. Basil McCrea has had difficulties in his
:05:23. > :05:26.relationships with people in the often Unionist party. He is a close
:05:26. > :05:36.friend of John McAllister for the pit will be interesting to see how
:05:36. > :05:36.
:05:36. > :05:40.they gel with the people coming to the party. The one experiment showed
:05:40. > :05:45.that mixed personalities are disastrous.
:05:45. > :05:51.Tonight has given us a taste of what UKIP -- NI21 stands for. The real
:05:51. > :05:57.work starts now to commence the people that their party lives up to
:05:57. > :06:02.its name and delivers something new. Hotfoot from their party launch, I'm
:06:02. > :06:07.joined by the leader of NI21 and his deputy, John McAllister. Thanks to
:06:07. > :06:10.you for joining us. Basil McCrea, what makes you different from some
:06:10. > :06:15.of the other parties that currently inhabit the centre ground in
:06:15. > :06:19.Northern Ireland politics? We have an identity based on
:06:19. > :06:23.Northern Ireland. We have fresh ideas, fresh faces, fresh politics.
:06:23. > :06:27.We have got energy and vibrancy and we are not afraid of going into
:06:27. > :06:31.opposition. We reject the way things are going on in Stormont at the
:06:31. > :06:36.moment. We think Northern Ireland deserves better. So that is the old
:06:36. > :06:43.line, go back to your constituencies and prepare for opposition? We think
:06:43. > :06:47.there is an alternative between everybody -- being in government and
:06:47. > :06:50.everybody being in opposition. We intend to do better. If this
:06:50. > :06:55.about encouraging the Ulster Unionist party and others to leave
:06:55. > :06:58.the executive and join you on the opposition benches?
:06:58. > :07:03.Those decisions are for those parties. We are saying that
:07:03. > :07:08.opposition provides two key elements to democracy. It provides scrutiny
:07:08. > :07:15.of government and it provides authentic choice for voters. That is
:07:15. > :07:23.what we want to get out and save. -- say.
:07:23. > :07:28.You can't have an opposition of two MLAs. You need to galvanise more
:07:28. > :07:32.people around that flag. One can make a difference, too can
:07:32. > :07:39.make a difference. As soon as you get out... Look at the diversity in
:07:39. > :07:42.that room tonight. Look at the hunger that there is out there for
:07:42. > :07:47.real politics. The disconnect that people feel with Stormont, you have
:07:47. > :07:52.only to watch the peace there, the disconnect is because you do not
:07:52. > :07:56.have authentic choice in an opposition in Stormont. That is what
:07:57. > :08:00.we intend to provide. If it is a disconnect with Stormont it is a
:08:00. > :08:04.disconnect with the two of you put that you are part of the face of
:08:04. > :08:11.Stormont. Why are you the magical answer to
:08:11. > :08:16.the problem? Who says they like us? All of the
:08:16. > :08:22.people who turned up. We had people queueing. That is a couple of
:08:22. > :08:26.hundred people. You need to get thousands to vote for you. We have
:08:26. > :08:30.got thousands to vote for us in the past. We have been doing a lot of
:08:30. > :08:35.listening and a lot of engagement. The first out there is immense.
:08:35. > :08:40.People are this content with the way politics is gone. But they want
:08:40. > :08:47.something better and we are going to offer extra.
:08:47. > :08:52.You might hold onto your seat where you had a large, popular vote...
:08:52. > :08:56.John McAllister will hold his seat. He got a good result last time. The
:08:56. > :09:00.way we look at this, it is up to the people of Northern Ireland. We put
:09:00. > :09:06.this challenge to them. We have made a stand on conviction. It is up to
:09:06. > :09:16.them who they vote for. If they like it, they should vote for us.
:09:16. > :09:19.
:09:19. > :09:25.Will you stand again as a NI21 candidate in Southdown?
:09:25. > :09:30.Absolutely, yes. But you might just tonight have
:09:30. > :09:34.signed your political P 45. The last time I was on your
:09:34. > :09:39.programme, I was resigning on a point of principle, as I wanted
:09:39. > :09:42.something different for Northern Ireland. I am the father of two
:09:42. > :09:48.young children. I want something better for my kids, growing up, that
:09:48. > :09:52.they don't have to move out. That is why I'm doing this. I am going to go
:09:52. > :09:58.out and campaign. The number of people in streets in Southdown that
:09:58. > :10:02.have come up to me already, even, importantly, when people have
:10:02. > :10:07.disagreed with me, when you go through and explain, then they
:10:07. > :10:12.suddenly start to say, well, you do have a point. That is the market we
:10:12. > :10:15.have to tap into and offer real choice to. Some people might be
:10:15. > :10:23.confused about what, precisely, it is that you represent.
:10:23. > :10:32.You both left a Unionist party and you have set up a Unionist party.
:10:32. > :10:38.We have set up a party that says the constitutional issue is irrelevant.
:10:38. > :10:42.Maybe, but you are prounion. Why do people let themselves be bullied
:10:42. > :10:45.into talking about something that is settled. Everybody knows we are in a
:10:45. > :10:51.better place here. But we are not killing with the real issues. All
:10:51. > :10:59.that happens with the tired old parties is vague and on about the
:10:59. > :11:03.same old thing. -- they bang on. People have had enough. They want
:11:03. > :11:08.something better, something new. We are going to be it.
:11:08. > :11:18.He is the interesting thing. You studiously avoided using the word
:11:18. > :11:21.Unionist in your party title. That is why you end up with NI21. You
:11:21. > :11:26.don't say you are Unionist. But you have indicated you are prounion on
:11:26. > :11:31.the constitutional question and you will designate at Stormont.
:11:31. > :11:36.We chose NI21 because we wanted something different and fresh, that
:11:36. > :11:41.was about Northern Ireland mature ring in the 21st-century. On the
:11:41. > :11:50.issue of designations, we didn't design the system. Part of what I
:11:50. > :11:59.would hope to do would be to look at designation as well. Should we be
:11:59. > :12:06.moving away... Hear me out... Should be moved away from designations
:12:06. > :12:13.altogether? Why we have those titles, we are going to have to work
:12:13. > :12:23.with the system. Why not designated other? That is the system we are in
:12:23. > :12:41.
:12:41. > :12:48.at the moment. You get for this Stormont elections.
:12:48. > :12:53.We will have a test in terms of Europe. You will stand the Europe?
:12:53. > :13:00.John and I will be talking about things. We are talking to a host of
:13:00. > :13:04.good people who turned up. The electoral contest of what we what
:13:04. > :13:10.about, we will go out with a mandate and see where that takes us
:13:10. > :13:15.forward. We used and in every council area? We will be sensible
:13:15. > :13:18.about this at the start. We will find good candidates and we had
:13:18. > :13:25.many on display tonight. We will look at where we have the best
:13:25. > :13:30.chance of getting elected. We are in this for the long term. How view
:13:30. > :13:35.got significant financial backers you can tell us anything about?
:13:35. > :13:41.is a grassroots organisation. We started off with volunteers.
:13:41. > :13:44.Everyone you saw today was a volunteer. But we have momentum, we
:13:44. > :13:50.have people who are so enthusiastic they will do all the work that
:13:50. > :13:54.needs to be done. This is not so much a political party, but a
:13:54. > :14:00.political music -- movement. Politics is a difficult job and
:14:00. > :14:05.some of those people and their tonight might be enthusiastic, but
:14:05. > :14:10.in a week or two, they might disappear like snow, and it and
:14:10. > :14:16.might just be basil and John again. They might be fair weather friends?
:14:16. > :14:21.I don't think so. How do you know? Over the last few months, a lot of
:14:21. > :14:25.these people I have got to know. A lot of these people are passionate
:14:25. > :14:28.about changing Northern Ireland. They have young families and they
:14:28. > :14:32.want something different. That is what will drive them and motivate
:14:32. > :14:39.them getting out canvassing and supporting and wanting to be
:14:39. > :14:44.candidates. That is how this is going to happen. There is grass
:14:44. > :14:48.roots approach, and that is how we change Northern Ireland. People
:14:48. > :14:55.watching this might say, it sounds interesting, but I already boats
:14:55. > :15:03.for the Alliance Party. They are entitled to their opinion. We will
:15:03. > :15:07.engage with people. People have said to us, we have been talking
:15:07. > :15:11.about the Disconnect with Stormont. The disillusionment with politics
:15:11. > :15:17.is huge. But the interest in doing something difference is significant.
:15:17. > :15:23.If it was the Alliance Party, why aren't they doing it already. We
:15:23. > :15:26.are there something new. They have not made the breakthrough. They are
:15:26. > :15:32.providing the fig-leaf in the Executive, we are going to provide
:15:32. > :15:36.proper opposition at Stormont. That is the difference. After 40 years
:15:36. > :15:42.they are still sitting at under 8%. You seem to think you will do
:15:42. > :15:52.better than that after a couple of months? After 40 years that they
:15:52. > :15:54.
:15:54. > :15:58.are still sitting on the fence. It's been almost 20 years since the
:15:58. > :16:00.Sunday Times revealed that some MPs were willing to take cash to ask
:16:01. > :16:03.questions. Yet this week, three peers have been accused of agreeing
:16:03. > :16:06.to carry out Parliamentary work for money - allegations they all deny.
:16:06. > :16:08.Earlier this evening, the BBC's Panorama programme broadcast
:16:08. > :16:18.secretly filmed footage of the Ulster Unionist peer, Lord Laird,
:16:18. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :17:27.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 68 seconds
:17:27. > :17:36.discussing a payment for asking So who scrutinises the House Lords?
:17:36. > :17:38.And is reform of the Upper House now long overdue? We'll hear from
:17:38. > :17:46.the former NIO Minister, Angela Smith, now Baroness Smith of
:17:46. > :17:54.Basildon, and the former Ulster Unionist leader, Lord Empey. And
:17:54. > :17:59.how concerned are you about the damage done by your party colleague,
:17:59. > :18:06.Lord Laird. Both Houses of Parliament have been involved.
:18:06. > :18:10.There has been a succession of events since 2009. Anything that
:18:10. > :18:14.further damages and weakens the credibility of Government in this
:18:14. > :18:20.country is something we all deplore. The atmosphere in a house this week
:18:20. > :18:25.has been very poor. People have been very angry, disillusioned and
:18:25. > :18:31.indeed people feel the public have a very low a patient -- opinion of
:18:31. > :18:36.politicians. Was Lord Laird advised to engaged in the conversation and
:18:36. > :18:42.says some of the things apparently he said? An investigation has been
:18:42. > :18:46.launched and I cannot go into the detail of it. But whether you are
:18:47. > :18:53.an MP or a peer, you are very unwise to give such interviews to
:18:53. > :18:57.anybody. It is well known there are lobby groups going around. We know
:18:57. > :19:02.they are out there. There is events all of the time held in Parliament
:19:02. > :19:06.and outside it where one is attending events which are run by
:19:06. > :19:11.organisations that have lobbyists. The House of Lords code of conduct
:19:11. > :19:16.says, Piers cannot engage in paid advocacy using access to Parliament
:19:16. > :19:20.to make big profits. As far as Lord Laird is concerned, your party
:19:20. > :19:26.leader has withdrawn the whip from him and has said, it does not look
:19:26. > :19:32.good. Until the investigation is completed, we cannot go into it.
:19:32. > :19:36.But all I can say is, I support the code of conduct of the House of
:19:36. > :19:42.Lords and I believe it should be adhered to at all times.
:19:42. > :19:46.Thoroughness Smith, 3 p is accused of taking money or potentially
:19:46. > :19:50.taking money for asking Parliamentary questions. Do you
:19:50. > :19:57.think they were ill-advised to engaged -- engage in the
:19:57. > :20:01.conversations they did? I'm not sure there would advise his right.
:20:01. > :20:04.I was shocked. No member of the House of Lords or the House of
:20:04. > :20:10.Commons should take money for doing their jobs. Any lobbyist he wants
:20:10. > :20:14.to pay you to do something if they had a good cause, an MP would be
:20:14. > :20:23.happy to get more information about, has an issue that is not worth
:20:23. > :20:28.pursuing if they have to pay for it. So it makes me angry and upset when
:20:28. > :20:37.other peers and MPs break the rules in this way. Your party did not
:20:37. > :20:41.deal with this when you had an opportunity a few years ago. It was
:20:41. > :20:49.in your election manifesto in 2009 but you did not move on it? By was
:20:49. > :20:55.working on this. I was giving them a short space of time to voluntary
:20:55. > :20:59.register. They failed to do so. It is clear now we need a proper
:20:59. > :21:05.register of lobbyists. I would differentiate between the
:21:05. > :21:10.constituent, the local organisation who wants to contact the MP, a low
:21:10. > :21:15.colonisation with a good cause, and these companies who are paid by
:21:15. > :21:19.other organisations, paid advocates. That is the thing that concerns me
:21:19. > :21:25.the most. You don't know who their other clients are and they are paid
:21:25. > :21:31.by somebody who has a cause to lobby MPs. That seems to me to be
:21:31. > :21:35.dubious of that needs some tighter regulations. Briefly, do you
:21:35. > :21:39.understand this kind of controversy in the public mind at least
:21:39. > :21:47.strengthens the case for an elected second chamber? I don't and know if
:21:47. > :21:51.it does. We have an elected chamber with Patrick Mercer, I think it is
:21:51. > :21:56.a matter of regulations. Rules, if they have been broken, action must
:21:56. > :22:02.be taken. The House of Lords itself has passed a bill wanting to
:22:02. > :22:05.tighten up the rules. And yet the Government has refused to let that
:22:05. > :22:09.bill pass. It is a clear case for that legislation to go through and
:22:09. > :22:19.I hope the Government will back down and allow us to tighten up our
:22:19. > :22:20.
:22:20. > :22:25.own rules as we have tried to do. Have you been asked to take on a
:22:25. > :22:29.piece of work by somebody else they did not seem quite right? No, I
:22:29. > :22:35.have never taken on many interests outside the political interests I
:22:35. > :22:40.have had. I have no outside connections whatsoever. Was that
:22:41. > :22:45.done deliberately to avoid this situation? Yes, I feel no matter
:22:45. > :22:50.how hard you try, it is hard to break your life up into
:22:50. > :22:54.compartments. I am vice-chairman of the all-party Parliamentary group,
:22:54. > :23:00.and we are dealing with aircraft companies, arms manufacturers. If
:23:00. > :23:05.you are involved with a company, how can you be objective? I need to
:23:05. > :23:11.ask you about the new political party we saw launched in Northern
:23:11. > :23:16.Ireland tonight, NI21. You have heard what so Basil McCrea and John
:23:16. > :23:24.McCalliter had to say about it. Is there scope for that in the
:23:24. > :23:29.country? I know those two gentleman fairly well. Basil had the
:23:29. > :23:33.education portfolio and was on the policing Board. They were quite
:23:33. > :23:38.patronising. All of us support a lot of the ideas about helping
:23:38. > :23:42.young people. Neither of them would have been heard if it was not for
:23:42. > :23:47.the support they got from the Ulster Unionist Party. They have no
:23:47. > :23:49.mandate to do what they are doing, they are salami-slicing the vote.
:23:49. > :23:55.Their efforts should have been within the party because that is
:23:55. > :23:59.when they have the support. It is interesting, not a single one of
:23:59. > :24:05.those constituencies where there tonight. I regret they have taken
:24:05. > :24:12.this decision. You won't throw your lot in with them? No, I won't.We
:24:12. > :24:18.leave it there. Thanks to you both. There is a lot to talk about with
:24:18. > :24:26.our commentators. Let's talk about the new party we have seen launch.
:24:26. > :24:30.We heard what Lord Empy had to save. He won't be joining. What did you
:24:30. > :24:34.make of what Basil McCrea and John McCalliter had to say? There is
:24:34. > :24:40.evidence to suggest there are people who are on disillusioned and
:24:40. > :24:45.disengaged and there is room for another party. But it needs to be
:24:45. > :24:50.dynamic and carve out a distinctive space. I'm not sure they are there
:24:50. > :24:54.yet. You asked what the difference is between you and the Alliance,
:24:54. > :24:59.but we don't have a clear answer. I think people will be energised by
:24:59. > :25:03.the new party and get people to think about it. But they have to be
:25:03. > :25:07.able to say, we can affect change. John McCalliter has a private
:25:07. > :25:11.member's bill in process about creating an opposition. If that
:25:11. > :25:18.could be a success, he could point to that and say, I have affected
:25:18. > :25:24.change. He has brought in a private member's bill around caravans which
:25:24. > :25:30.won't bring in a lot of political momentum. Are you persuaded the
:25:30. > :25:34.Spaceman exists for them to inhabit? Partly. I think there is
:25:34. > :25:39.some space, because just only over half of the electorate turned out
:25:39. > :25:46.to vote. So there is a huge slice of the electorate that needs to be
:25:46. > :25:49.energise and it gives new parties an opportunity. What all political
:25:49. > :25:53.party needs is momentum will stop it was difficult speaking this
:25:54. > :25:58.evening, because we have not seen the platform, we don't know what
:25:58. > :26:02.their manifesto is or how social progressive they are going to be.
:26:02. > :26:07.How fiscally conservative they are going to be. Plus the fact of
:26:07. > :26:12.course, and it was interesting Basil McCrea said they were going
:26:12. > :26:15.to contest the local European elections and the local Government
:26:15. > :26:22.election. That could be a retrograde step. It could come a
:26:22. > :26:30.bit early. But they need momentum. The next election is three years
:26:30. > :26:34.away. They have got to keep moving. Whatever happens, I suspect it will
:26:34. > :26:43.be interesting. Let's talk about your issue of the
:26:43. > :26:50.week. This is the fall-out from the SPAD Bill, which has caused quite a
:26:50. > :26:57.bit of heat in terms of the tone of the debate. The particular thing is
:26:57. > :27:04.what Sinn Fein does next in the courts. Martin McGuinness said, see
:27:04. > :27:10.you in court. It suggests Sinn Fein are determined to seek rid --
:27:10. > :27:18.judicial regress. But interestingly enough, the Attorney-General has
:27:18. > :27:24.said it is consistent with the European Convention on Human Rights.
:27:24. > :27:34.What is your he issue? It is a private member's bill. A lone voice
:27:34. > :27:39.
:27:39. > :27:47.in the wilderness. He is committed to bring something and can achieve
:27:47. > :27:53.something. He chose belief from our legislative Assembly. We have the
:27:53. > :27:58.apparatus, but we do little about it. Let's move on to your tweeds of
:27:58. > :28:08.the week. We can have a smile at this one. It is around the name of
:28:08. > :28:30.
:28:30. > :28:37.our political party and comes from This was prompted by a remark made
:28:37. > :28:42.by a Tory MP in the Palace of Westminster. It was a debate in the
:28:42. > :28:48.Commons on the aspect of the whole service and which he said, did
:28:48. > :28:58.Junior Minister agree that Junior women doctors placed tremendous
:28:58. > :29:01.
:29:01. > :29:05.burden on the NHS because they have children. We have a sentence each
:29:05. > :29:13.on your look ahead? Mine is going to be the fall-out from the Sinn
:29:13. > :29:23.Fein and the SDLP. I think relations will become particularly
:29:23. > :29:24.
:29:25. > :29:30.acid. A quick word on that photo? Of all of the gin joints, you have