:00:14. > :00:33.Tonight - he's the British Prime Minister who's widely credited with
:00:34. > :00:36.starting the peace process. 20 years on from the signing of the Downing
:00:37. > :00:39.Street Declaration, Sir John Major discusses Haass, dissidents and why
:00:40. > :00:44.loyalists have no reason to worry about any erosion of their
:00:45. > :00:47.Britishness. It is a phantom fear. It is perfectly clear from the
:00:48. > :00:50.Downing Street Declaration that so long as Northern Ireland wishes to
:00:51. > :00:54.remain British and the people of Northern Ireland wish to remain
:00:55. > :00:57.British, they will remain British. Also tonight - is limited immunity
:00:58. > :01:02.the best way to get to the truth about the past? We hear the views of
:01:03. > :01:05.victims. You can't take somebody's life and not pay in some way for it.
:01:06. > :01:08.Joining me live in studio, the former police ombudsman, Baroness
:01:09. > :01:11.O'Loan, and the Alliance Party's deputy leader, Naomi Long. And in
:01:12. > :01:14.Commentators' Corner tonight - the author and columnist, Susan McKay,
:01:15. > :01:19.and the Belfast Telegraph's political editor, Liam Clarke.
:01:20. > :01:20.And you can, of course, follow the programme on Twitter - that's
:01:21. > :01:31.@BBCtheview. It's been a busy week for the former
:01:32. > :01:34.Prime Minister, Sir John Major. On Tuesday he was in Soweto for Nelson
:01:35. > :01:38.Mandela's memorial service and last night he was the guest of honour at
:01:39. > :01:42.a ceremony in Dublin, to mark the 20th anniversary of the Downing
:01:43. > :01:46.Street Declaration. It was signed by Sir John and the then Taoiseach,
:01:47. > :01:50.Albert Reynolds, in December 1993. When I met up with Sir John this
:01:51. > :01:53.morning in Dublin, I began by asking him how important a role the
:01:54. > :01:59.Declaration played in preparing the ground for the Good Friday
:02:00. > :02:04.Agreement. I think it was an essential component of it. But of
:02:05. > :02:09.course, there are many people who played a part in this. Both before
:02:10. > :02:13.the Downing Street Declaration and thereafter. There are no single
:02:14. > :02:19.heroes in this. So many people played a part, many of whom will
:02:20. > :02:24.never be known, in bringing together a process that finally delivered
:02:25. > :02:27.peace. And it was a communal effort. And it is impossible to overestimate
:02:28. > :02:33.the importance of public opinion in all of this. The public were sick
:02:34. > :02:36.and tired of the fact that he was a political problem that had resulted
:02:37. > :02:43.in violence, but the politicians had not been able to cure. The attitude
:02:44. > :02:47.made it immensely easier to proceed. How much did public opinion affect
:02:48. > :02:50.the speed at which you were able to move forward and how much were you
:02:51. > :02:53.affected by the way you didn't have the Commons majority that perhaps
:02:54. > :03:02.would not have given you the recall room? -- wriggle room. The Commons
:03:03. > :03:06.majority was not a problem. I had very strong support from the Labour
:03:07. > :03:10.Party and the Liberal Democrat party so the Commons majority was not a
:03:11. > :03:15.problem. It is one of those fallacies of commentators who look
:03:16. > :03:17.at things rather inadequately. Public opinion wasn't really
:03:18. > :03:23.relevant in terms of the speed, either. What was relevant was that
:03:24. > :03:28.you were putting to rest, decades, centuries of distrust. And that
:03:29. > :03:31.necessarily takes time to build confidence. We had to build the
:03:32. > :03:36.confidence of the nationalist community, the Unionist community
:03:37. > :03:41.and the men on both sides of the divide who were engaged in violence.
:03:42. > :03:45.It was like a multifaceted Rubiks cube and we had to bring everything
:03:46. > :03:49.together in order that we could make an advance that would stick. You can
:03:50. > :03:54.easily make some advance but if it does not stick, if it isn't
:03:55. > :03:58.accepted, you are wasting your time put up it was at that point that
:03:59. > :04:04.producing something that would last and be accepted that really took the
:04:05. > :04:10.time in the peace process. That meant, even privately, having some
:04:11. > :04:13.kind of contact with the IRA. You can't make peace if you are not in
:04:14. > :04:19.touch with the people who are disturbing piece. So it was
:04:20. > :04:24.essential. Just as Albert Reynolds and I took political risks, so did
:04:25. > :04:27.the leaders of the IRA, in eventually deciding to play a
:04:28. > :04:35.subliminal part in the peace process. He started talking to the
:04:36. > :04:38.IRA, even indirectly. -- you started. Does that mean that the
:04:39. > :04:43.current administration needs to be talking to dissident republicans? It
:04:44. > :04:46.is a different situation. The problems that exist are tiny
:04:47. > :04:50.compared to the problems that existed a long time ago. The
:04:51. > :04:57.distinctive difference is that there were many people 25 years ago in the
:04:58. > :05:02.communities who tacitly supported the people who were living outside
:05:03. > :05:05.the law. That is no longer the case. You are now dealing with a wholly
:05:06. > :05:11.different set of circumstances to the one applied 25 years ago. There
:05:12. > :05:16.has been some criticism of David Cameron and his government for not
:05:17. > :05:20.being sufficiently engaged with Northern Ireland politics. Do you
:05:21. > :05:24.think that criticism is fair? I don't, actually. I think we have an
:05:25. > :05:27.extremely good Northern Ireland secretary who has extremely close
:05:28. > :05:32.contact with the government in Dublin. I think they are very aware
:05:33. > :05:36.of what is going on and very concerned to make sure that we
:05:37. > :05:43.return Northern Ireland to what we might call a perfectly normal
:05:44. > :05:46.society. You have talked in the past about the early days of Tony
:05:47. > :05:51.Blair's government, when he would pick up the phone to talk to you, in
:05:52. > :05:55.that changeover period, I suppose. And how those phone calls became
:05:56. > :05:59.less frequent and then stopped altogether. As David Cameron ever
:06:00. > :06:05.picked up the phone to sound you out about Northern Ireland? I am not
:06:06. > :06:09.going to go into that but suffice to say we have known one another for a
:06:10. > :06:14.long time. Is he doing the right thing? He is great concern to make
:06:15. > :06:20.sure Northern Ireland returns to normal society. -- he is very
:06:21. > :06:23.concerned. The relationship between Britain and Northern Ireland is
:06:24. > :06:26.better than it has ever been at any time in our long histories. I think
:06:27. > :06:30.we are looking at a very bright moment in terms of Anglo-Irish
:06:31. > :06:36.relations and things will continue to improve. A high water mark in
:06:37. > :06:41.terms of British Irish relations but there continue to be problems on the
:06:42. > :06:45.ground in Northern Ireland. I'm sure have followed with interest the
:06:46. > :06:50.Haass talks and people are waiting to see what formula Richard Haass
:06:51. > :06:55.and Meghan O'Sullivan come up with over the Christmas period. Were you
:06:56. > :06:58.surprised at issues like flags parades remain so problematic 15
:06:59. > :07:04.years after the signing of the agreement? Disappointed rather than
:07:05. > :07:07.surprised. If I go back to my early discussions with Albert Reynolds, we
:07:08. > :07:12.thought the peace process would take longer than it did, and we were
:07:13. > :07:17.always aware from the outset that outside the mainstream agreement,
:07:18. > :07:20.which encompasses 99% of people, there would be a tiny minority on
:07:21. > :07:26.either side of the community who would not be reconciled. We were
:07:27. > :07:30.always aware that would be the case. I think you are seeing a bit of
:07:31. > :07:33.that. Richard Haass, very experienced in diplomacy, think he
:07:34. > :07:38.is the right person to look at it and I hope when he reports, we will
:07:39. > :07:42.be able to move forward. But I don't think there is any chance what ever
:07:43. > :07:49.of slipping back remotely to where we were. The communities, north and
:07:50. > :07:53.South, Catholic and Protestant, would not permit that to happen. We
:07:54. > :07:58.are not going to slip back, because of the history of Northern Ireland,
:07:59. > :08:02.people fear something has gone wrong and we will slip back to where we
:08:03. > :08:06.were. That is not going to happen, something has gone wrong that it is
:08:07. > :08:15.minor compared to what used to be the case and it will be put right.
:08:16. > :08:19.Loyalists feel their sense of British identity and culture has
:08:20. > :08:22.been eroded and continues to be under threat. I don't imagine you
:08:23. > :08:29.could get anybody more British than you, do you have any sympathy for
:08:30. > :08:35.their view? I think it is a phantom fear. It is perfectly clear from the
:08:36. > :08:40.Downing Street Declaration that for so long as Northern Ireland wishes
:08:41. > :08:44.to remain British, so long as the people of Northern Ireland wish to
:08:45. > :08:49.remember it is, they will remain British. No one is abandoning them
:08:50. > :08:53.pushing them to one side. If you look at everyday life in Northern
:08:54. > :09:04.Ireland, it is in comparable better than it was 20 to 25 years ago. In
:09:05. > :09:09.comparable a -- incomparably better. They don't see it that way, they say
:09:10. > :09:13.they don't have educational opportunities or jobs. There are
:09:14. > :09:18.many people in southern Ireland who don't have jobs, many people in the
:09:19. > :09:22.United Kingdom and across Europe, it is a function of what has happened
:09:23. > :09:27.economically after the financial problems of 2007 and 2008. But it is
:09:28. > :09:33.a different proposition, a different cause of the pub ability than that
:09:34. > :09:41.which existed prior to 1993 -- the probability. There has been a great
:09:42. > :09:47.deal of Scotch and about what the options might be for Richard Haass.
:09:48. > :09:51.-- a great deal of discussion. Where do you stand on people getting some
:09:52. > :09:56.kind of immunity, so that victims know what happened? Does it have to
:09:57. > :10:00.be considered? We had better see what Richard Haass has two say about
:10:01. > :10:04.that. It depends what we are talking about and I am not prepared to offer
:10:05. > :10:11.a blanket view on that. In terms of the most serious crimes, it is very
:10:12. > :10:14.difficult to push them to one side. Very difficult indeed. Let us see
:10:15. > :10:19.what Richard Haass has disabled that. You talked about high water
:10:20. > :10:25.mark for relations between the UK and Ireland, was that partly because
:10:26. > :10:30.of the Queen's visit two years ago. That put the seal on it. Relations
:10:31. > :10:32.have been improving for a long time and her visit was frankly
:10:33. > :10:38.sensational, the warmth was immensely moving for everybody,
:10:39. > :10:43.including the Queen, I think. Next year resident Higgins will come to a
:10:44. > :10:50.-- come for a state visit to the United Kingdom -- President Higgins.
:10:51. > :10:53.We need to look at the fact that the circumstantial situation today
:10:54. > :10:57.between the two countries is better than it ever has been and it is
:10:58. > :11:02.improving. I give you one illustration. UK trade with Ireland
:11:03. > :11:08.is greater than UK trade with China and India combined. They have a
:11:09. > :11:14.population combined of two and three quarters billion people. And yet our
:11:15. > :11:21.trade with Ireland is bigger. That tells you something about the
:11:22. > :11:25.importance of Ireland to the United Kingdom and the importance of the
:11:26. > :11:28.United Kingdom to Ireland. Let's put these past arguments behind and
:11:29. > :11:30.build on what has been achieved by so many people over the last 25
:11:31. > :11:33.years. The former Prime Minister, Sir John
:11:34. > :11:37.Major, talking to me in Dublin earlier today. During that interview
:11:38. > :11:41.we touched on the issue of dealing with the past. Truth and justice
:11:42. > :11:44.usually go hand in hand - but what if you had to choose one over the
:11:45. > :11:48.other? One proposal being discussed as part of the Haass talks is
:11:49. > :11:50.limited immunity. Under such a scheme, former paramilitaries'
:11:51. > :11:54.confessions wouldn't be used against them in court. In a moment the
:11:55. > :11:58.former Police Ombudsman, Baroness O'Loan, and the Alliance MP Naomi
:11:59. > :12:14.Long will give me their views. But first, this report by Martina Purdy.
:12:15. > :12:19.Although the Troubles have long since ended, there are still more
:12:20. > :12:24.than 3000 unsolved killings and the more time that goes by, the less
:12:25. > :12:28.likely it is that anyone will be brought to justice. Indeed, the
:12:29. > :12:37.recent conviction of this man, Sheamus Q, for the 1981 killing an
:12:38. > :12:41.RUC reservist is a rare result. Kearney Gun down John Proctor,
:12:42. > :12:48.moments after he visited his newborn son in hospital. But his family,
:12:49. > :12:52.justice was slow. As a family we were strong, this last 32 years,
:12:53. > :12:59.waiting patiently and our day has come. He was convicted on DNA
:13:00. > :13:04.evidence and sentenced to 20 years, serving only two under the Good
:13:05. > :13:09.Friday Agreement, but for John Proctor's family, it is some kind of
:13:10. > :13:13.justice. He will not get his Christmas dinner, and we will. The
:13:14. > :13:21.case come as politicians grapple with legacy of the Bath, along with
:13:22. > :13:25.US diplomat Richard Haass, working on the report over Christmas
:13:26. > :13:29.including dealing with unsolved killings. He is not short of ideas,
:13:30. > :13:37.one is a truth commission where there is still a chance of
:13:38. > :13:44.prosecution, but it is limited. Whatever model it is, it compel
:13:45. > :13:50.someone to give information. And when that person provides testimony,
:13:51. > :13:52.or gives written documents, any information in those documents
:13:53. > :13:57.cannot be used in criminal proceedings. Prosecution would only
:13:58. > :14:01.result if the prosecutor did not tell the truth, or any other
:14:02. > :14:11.evidence, such as DNA, was found, which is unlikely. 1800 cases have
:14:12. > :14:14.been reviewed, with three prosecutions resulting, so anyone
:14:15. > :14:20.entering this process will know there will not be much more
:14:21. > :14:25.evidence. What has been coming out? Tales of bloodshed, told the
:14:26. > :14:30.reporters, not judges. We were not there to act like an army unit, but
:14:31. > :14:36.there to act like a terror group. This BBC panorama programme was
:14:37. > :14:41.shown last month, featuring the case of Patrick McCarthy, shot dead on a
:14:42. > :14:46.West Belfast feet in 1972 by an undercover army unit. Although the
:14:47. > :14:50.soldier who killed him was not interviewed. How does his daughter
:14:51. > :14:56.feel about the notion of a commission focusing on truth more
:14:57. > :15:01.than justice? We expect justice. My father died, he was innocent, and if
:15:02. > :15:05.you could talk, he would be looking for justice. You cannot take
:15:06. > :15:11.someone's life and not pay in some way for it, otherwise the Jewish
:15:12. > :15:22.people looking for Nathalie war criminals, should they stop? - and
:15:23. > :15:25.Mark -- Nazi war criminals. This women is against any that gives
:15:26. > :15:29.criminals even any shield from justice. Her sister was killed
:15:30. > :15:34.leaving Mass. Her father was wounded. Only this women, briefly a
:15:35. > :15:39.form an adviser at Stormont, was jailed for her part, but there were
:15:40. > :15:45.others involved. You cannot separate truth and justice. Both of them have
:15:46. > :15:50.to go together. But truth has come first in other cases, such as the
:15:51. > :15:56.recent Smithwick enquiry into the IRA killing of two RUC officers in
:15:57. > :16:01.1989. IRA witnesses gave statements under limited immunity. It was
:16:02. > :16:06.interesting how the judge said that he could not trust what the IRA
:16:07. > :16:09.witnesses had said. One of your concern about, such as your room
:16:10. > :16:18.keys, the gunmen coming forward, about getting the truth. -- what are
:16:19. > :16:22.your concerns? It would be trusting completely what they would say.
:16:23. > :16:26.Anyone coming forward with information about the murder,
:16:27. > :16:30.something they are involved in, they will want to dress it up so they can
:16:31. > :16:35.look all right, that they felt they had to do it, that they were right
:16:36. > :16:47.to do it. It is very hurtful. And it is very traumatising. Paul Gallagher
:16:48. > :16:52.was riddled with bullets in 1993. The men to cover his family home.
:16:53. > :16:55.Personally, he has no interest in a truth commission and views
:16:56. > :17:01.prosecution as unrealistic. I know the truth. It was any Catholic will
:17:02. > :17:07.do, and it happened to me. I know my truth. It is finding out why
:17:08. > :17:11.somebody else did what they did to me. That will not give me any help.
:17:12. > :17:17.It will not help me sleep any better. His priority is getting
:17:18. > :17:21.support services, including financial, for victims. He wants of
:17:22. > :17:26.risks for victims in any truth commission which could do more harm
:17:27. > :17:32.than good. We have to take a chance and Gamble, really, with what they
:17:33. > :17:35.want. Than thinking, well I get the truth and that will open the door
:17:36. > :17:50.for me? In a lot of cases, it will make it worse. Martina Purdy
:17:51. > :17:53.reporting. Naomi Long, one victim, Paul Gallagher, seeming to suggest
:17:54. > :17:59.limited immunity could potentially do more harm than good. It is a very
:18:00. > :18:02.complex area, but something we cannot write off in terms of
:18:03. > :18:07.approaching the issue of recovering truth and information for those
:18:08. > :18:12.victims who do want to have that opportunity. It cannot replace
:18:13. > :18:15.justice. The justice system still has to continue as it would, people
:18:16. > :18:19.still have the right to pursue justice, but we need to be honest
:18:20. > :18:26.about the likelihood of justice being obtained. And for many, it is
:18:27. > :18:30.remote. In that context, some might choose to enter into a process to
:18:31. > :18:34.obtain information and truth that would lead to limited immunity for
:18:35. > :18:39.those who give that information. That might be an opt in process
:18:40. > :18:43.people could consider. It will not suit everyone, but not something we
:18:44. > :18:48.should take off table as part of a wider package of measures to deal
:18:49. > :18:52.with the Passmore comprehensively. So it could work in some
:18:53. > :18:56.circumstances? And it will have to be the choice of the victims, which
:18:57. > :19:01.is even a complex area, because someone being murdered, the family
:19:02. > :19:04.might not all agree on how to take the case forward. There are
:19:05. > :19:09.complexities around this, but at the moment, many people will get neither
:19:10. > :19:13.truth or justice. And if we have a more comprehensive process and
:19:14. > :19:16.deliver justice for whom that is attainable, and for them for whom it
:19:17. > :19:20.is not attainable, deliver some measure of truth, accepting some
:19:21. > :19:26.will get neither, that will be better than neither foremost. Do you
:19:27. > :19:30.except that is a point worth making, Baroness O'Loan, that it will not
:19:31. > :19:34.suit everyone working every circumstance, but in no
:19:35. > :19:39.circumstances will it could work, it is worth pursuing? The experience of
:19:40. > :19:43.the truth commissions across the world has been that, we have people
:19:44. > :19:50.do give evidence under these limited immunity provisions, it very often
:19:51. > :19:55.transpires that they gave limited evidence as well as seeking limited
:19:56. > :19:59.immunity for that they were saying. And the truth is not told.
:20:00. > :20:04.Therefore, there is a risk sacrificing both truth and justice
:20:05. > :20:10.by going for limited immunity. But I am not ruling out limited in you did
:20:11. > :20:13.-- limited immunity for limited information. I would not accept
:20:14. > :20:18.immunity for murders, for people committing murders, I do not think
:20:19. > :20:23.you can allow immunity. If you are going to build a society based on
:20:24. > :20:26.the rule of law. We cannot have the situation, for example, in which
:20:27. > :20:32.those who marched down a street in breach of a Parades Commission are
:20:33. > :20:36.convicted, and those committing murders 15 - 20 years ago are not
:20:37. > :20:40.convicted. That would be a society not based on justice. Do you think
:20:41. > :20:48.it could work in murders in certain circumstances, Naomi? It already
:20:49. > :20:52.has. In terms of recovery of remains of the disappeared, for example,
:20:53. > :20:58.committed immunity from prosecution was given to those who cooperated
:20:59. > :21:02.with the recovery body, in order that they would be able to locate
:21:03. > :21:06.and recover remains, meaning some of those people may have been involved
:21:07. > :21:10.in the torture and killing of those individuals, as well as the disposal
:21:11. > :21:14.of the bodies. We have already accepted that in that very
:21:15. > :21:18.prescribed set of circumstances where the victims chose that route,
:21:19. > :21:21.because their priority was the recovery of remains. And we have to
:21:22. > :21:25.keep the victims at the centre of this process and we need to look at
:21:26. > :21:30.ways of facilitating what they want. I understand the point that Nuala
:21:31. > :21:34.makes in terms of not corrupting justice. And I accept the point that
:21:35. > :21:37.people should be able to pursue justice, which is why I do not agree
:21:38. > :21:42.with John Larkin that we should draw a line under the past and not
:21:43. > :21:46.prosecute or investigate. We should do all of those things. But we're
:21:47. > :21:51.people know they may not get justice, they could bus you truth as
:21:52. > :21:59.an alternative, -- they could pursue truth. The Alliance Party, and Naomi
:22:00. > :22:02.Long, and not alone. You will have that expressed by others, not least
:22:03. > :22:08.the DUP, which seems to be warming to the idea. Sammy Wilson made that
:22:09. > :22:15.clear today. That he would support an agreement, if it is what the
:22:16. > :22:22.victims in certain circumstances one. Does that surprise you? It does
:22:23. > :22:26.not, and Naomi is right, the immunity does not rest with the
:22:27. > :22:32.person who gives the information, it rests with the information. That
:22:33. > :22:36.cannot be used as evidence. So it could take place in other
:22:37. > :22:42.circumstances? We had that decommissioning of arms as well. We
:22:43. > :22:45.already have certain circumstances. I am not saying that there are not
:22:46. > :22:52.categories of evidence which the politicians might agree should be a
:22:53. > :22:57.footage from any future prosecution. But if we are to have a state based
:22:58. > :23:02.on the rule of law, and adhere to Article two obligations, the
:23:03. > :23:07.European human rights obligations as a state, we have to say there is the
:23:08. > :23:11.possibility of prosecution where the evidence is available to allow it.
:23:12. > :23:13.The victims have many views, many of them knowing they will not get
:23:14. > :23:19.justice, and the reality is they will not. But that is not a reason
:23:20. > :23:25.for this date to say there will be no justice. They are two separate
:23:26. > :23:30.things. But victims, whilst needing to be part of the equation, society
:23:31. > :23:35.has ruled it is the politicians we elect that make the decisions. If
:23:36. > :23:40.they agree on a decision with Richard Haass, we have to respect
:23:41. > :23:45.that. But there was a truth commission in South Africa, and
:23:46. > :23:50.Desmond Tutu and Mandela involved, and terribly influential, but it had
:23:51. > :23:54.a limited effect. And a lot of people in South Africa will tell you
:23:55. > :23:57.it did not work. Even now the politicians may decide something, it
:23:58. > :24:01.does not mean it will solve the problem. And we have to find the
:24:02. > :24:06.best possible way to bring some healing and justice to the past,
:24:07. > :24:12.enabling people to move on in their lives without feeling betrayed by
:24:13. > :24:19.the state. How do you do that, briefly? If this is not the least
:24:20. > :24:23.worst option, what is? A combination of factors will allow truth telling,
:24:24. > :24:27.limited immunity, but only very limited and in limited
:24:28. > :24:30.circumstances, the possibility of prosecution, undoubtedly very few of
:24:31. > :24:37.those, and the fact that even if people are convicted there will only
:24:38. > :24:41.be two-year sentences before 1998. A lot of murders happening since then,
:24:42. > :24:45.which we should not forget. Those are still part of the Troubles
:24:46. > :24:53.history. And lastly, what about England and Wales, and the bombings
:24:54. > :24:57.there? Will those be covered? Or will we have two sets of standards
:24:58. > :25:01.operating in the United Kingdom, one saying in Northern Ireland there is
:25:02. > :25:05.no real right to truth and recovery, that in England and Wales, if you
:25:06. > :25:11.were blown up by the IRA, we will proceed. Is that something Haass
:25:12. > :25:19.will look at, if that is limited immunity, there will be legislation
:25:20. > :25:26.in here, GB, or the United States? I will not go against their process.
:25:27. > :25:29.But victims who choose to reside in England and Wales do not available
:25:30. > :25:35.the services provided in Northern Ireland for victims living here, so
:25:36. > :25:39.there is already a disparity. But we should not focus entirely on limited
:25:40. > :25:43.immunity, it is one of a number of tools available, potentially to try
:25:44. > :25:47.to get the best outcome for the most number of victims. At the moment, we
:25:48. > :25:52.are not serving that constituency well and it has to be the priority
:25:53. > :25:58.as the politicians charged with a way forward to maximise that.
:25:59. > :26:05.Briefly, in the next week or ten days, can Haass and his team go for
:26:06. > :26:07.broke and find an overarching deal? Obviously an opportunity, the
:26:08. > :26:13.question whether his solutions will enable the future, something we
:26:14. > :26:22.cannot determine until we know what it is. Optimistic or pessimistic? I
:26:23. > :26:29.do not know, so I am neither. You are one of them, optimistic or
:26:30. > :26:33.pessimistic? I am realistic, this is an important
:26:34. > :26:37.moment, and if we can do this, we can transform the context in which
:26:38. > :26:43.we have conversations about a whole series of issues in Northern
:26:44. > :26:48.Ireland. If we get it wrong, we may never get another opportunity and it
:26:49. > :26:52.is important we do. What about the people so terribly injured in the
:26:53. > :26:56.Troubles, not the victims of murders, but whose lives were
:26:57. > :27:02.destroyed, but as in a wheelchair, like Paul Gallagher? We are not
:27:03. > :27:04.providing for them. And they are in our minds as we are dealing with
:27:05. > :27:11.this, they need to beef provided for. -- need to be provided for.
:27:12. > :27:15.Thank you both very much. Let us hear the thoughts of our
:27:16. > :27:21.commentators Susan McKay and Liam Clarke. Thank you very much. Susan,
:27:22. > :27:25.your thoughts about limited immunity and Haass wrestling with these
:27:26. > :27:31.issues in an apparently limited timescale? What Naomi Long has said
:27:32. > :27:37.is critical, this is an important moment. The parties have got to be
:27:38. > :27:42.very upfront about the importance of this, because we have bad history in
:27:43. > :27:46.terms of, for example, the setting up of the Parades Commission and
:27:47. > :27:53.other moments where it appeared we had reached some sort of decision.
:27:54. > :27:58.We got that commission, but did not in act one when it's finished. We
:27:59. > :28:02.need to be clear that if Haass has taken the trouble to consult
:28:03. > :28:07.everybody, we will follow on from it and deal with this issue. There is
:28:08. > :28:11.no doubt that the Good Friday Agreement put aside the victims. 15
:28:12. > :28:16.years on, it is time that their situation was addressed. Liam, do
:28:17. > :28:22.you think that Haass can square the circle? I think there will be some
:28:23. > :28:30.sort of limited immunity. It has been talked about enough. But
:28:31. > :28:36.something we have to remember is fenders who committed murders or
:28:37. > :28:40.attacks during the Troubles, there is very little likelihood of them
:28:41. > :28:45.being prosecuted. If you'd dole out immunity as a thin look, there is
:28:46. > :28:49.not much immunity to come forward. There would be concerns about being
:28:50. > :28:56.socially embarrassed. Some people would not talk about confessing to
:28:57. > :29:00.murdering the man down the road, if evidence was handed elsewhere, and
:29:01. > :29:05.not using the provides evidence to catch on. It will be less
:29:06. > :29:13.effective. That is if we make it narrower. And we need victims to buy
:29:14. > :29:18.into it. A brief word, Susan, do you think a deal can be done in the
:29:19. > :29:23.timescale? I think it can be, and no reason for it to take so long. And
:29:24. > :29:28.Haass has said getting a still a picture of what happened here is in
:29:29. > :29:32.our interests. That is the point I constantly return to, that we need
:29:33. > :29:39.to know what the history of the conflict was. That is not such a
:29:40. > :29:43.thing as an overall victims' view. But what Dr Mallinder, and Keira
:29:44. > :29:47.McEvoy has led, in their models has said that this is only going to be
:29:48. > :29:53.part of a wider thing and we need to have proper services for victims, as
:29:54. > :29:57.well as a truth type commission. Liam, what did you make of Sir John
:29:58. > :30:03.Major's view their one loyalist and their concern about their
:30:04. > :30:07.Britishness, their sense of British culture being eroded, which she
:30:08. > :30:16.described as a phantom fear? -- which he. Even Peter Robinson said
:30:17. > :30:20.it is unlikely the border would go in our lifetime. But in Northern
:30:21. > :30:25.Ireland, the sense of Britishness has been eroded, which is maybe why
:30:26. > :30:33.flags have been such an intractable issue. I think the loyalist
:30:34. > :30:39.mentality is a paranoid one. And seeing the fears are phantom will
:30:40. > :30:41.not help. I was taken by major's notion of Northern Ireland going
:30:42. > :30:47.back to being a personally normal society. I do not remember it ever
:30:48. > :30:54.being perfectly normal. Interesting to hear what he had to say, a long
:30:55. > :30:58.time since he was in Downing Street. The two governments produced the
:30:59. > :31:04.Downey Street declaration and broke both sides into line. The government
:31:05. > :31:09.can do that with Haass as well. We can leave it there. Now to head up
:31:10. > :31:20.to the hill for the view from our man with the inside track.
:31:21. > :31:30.I have just been suspended. I do not know why. I think it may be because
:31:31. > :31:36.of what happened after the security men's Christmas lunch. Apparently I
:31:37. > :31:41.took a selfie of me and Peter Robinson during the discussion about
:31:42. > :31:45.Nelson Mandela's legacy. Then I said happy Christmas in Irish and asked
:31:46. > :31:51.if he was going to Mandela's funeral. And I said to Martin
:31:52. > :31:57.McGuinness that getting money out of Gerry Adams was like getting your
:31:58. > :32:02.money out of an Ulster bank. Some people have no sense of humour! I
:32:03. > :32:07.was not even given Edwin Poots his Christmas present, Elton John's
:32:08. > :32:12.greatest hits and and I love Tom Daley T-shirt. The perfect novelty
:32:13. > :32:21.T-shirt! Merry business, everyone! -- Merry Christmas.
:32:22. > :32:26.That is it from The View this week and for this year. We are back on
:32:27. > :32:28.January 16. Until then, happy Christmas whatever you are doing,
:32:29. > :32:33.have a good time.