:00:27. > :00:31.On The View tonight - striking a deal on unionist unity, as an
:00:31. > :00:36.agreed candidate emerges in Mid- Ulster is it a short-term move or a
:00:36. > :00:41.long-term strategy. We are live from Moneymore with the latest from
:00:41. > :00:49.Purdy purr. We have more here in the studio with John McCallister
:00:49. > :00:55.and Rick Wilford. Count r counting the cost of elderly care. If you
:00:55. > :01:05.think Northern Ireland is more divided than ever, think again.
:01:05. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:09.can of course follow the programme First tonight - to Mid-Ulster,
:01:09. > :01:14.where the two main unionist parties have reached agreement on a
:01:14. > :01:19.candidate to fight the by-election on March 7th. They have backed
:01:19. > :01:25.Nigel Lutton, whose father was murdered by the IRA in 1979.
:01:25. > :01:33.Francie Molloy, the Sinn Fein candidate, was named under farltry
:01:33. > :01:43.privilege by a DUP -- parliamentary privilege by a DUP MP. Gareth
:01:43. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :01:48.Gordon is in Moneymore for us Coming from the victims' sector,
:01:48. > :01:57.coming from a position where he is not attached to either of the
:01:57. > :02:02.unionist party or to any unionist party, he has a background in the
:02:02. > :02:06.LoyalS. In this comirbtsy, on this occasion, -- constituency, on this
:02:06. > :02:11.occasion, the mood of the pro union people is to find and put up a
:02:11. > :02:16.single unionist candidate. That is what we've done. I am very pleased
:02:16. > :02:25.about that. I wish Nigel Lutton every success. Peter Robinson
:02:25. > :02:31.speaking to Martina Purdy tonight. Tell us how the situation developed
:02:31. > :02:35.and the announcement was made that Nigel Lutton is to be the
:02:35. > :02:39.candidate? Well, there had been some speculation that the two
:02:39. > :02:43.parties were working on trying to find an agreed candidate. Earlier
:02:43. > :02:48.in the week, the speculation was that they were not being very
:02:48. > :02:55.successful. I understand in recent days that Mike Nesbitt and Peter
:02:55. > :02:58.Robinson went to see Nigel Lutton and he was amenable to standing.
:02:58. > :03:03.With that deal between the two leaders they brought it to their
:03:03. > :03:09.parties this evening in Mid-Ulster. What to we know about the new
:03:09. > :03:12.candidate? Well, I am told he ticks a lot of boxes in terms of the
:03:12. > :03:17.broad appeal within the unionist family. He was previously a young
:03:17. > :03:21.unionist, I believe when it was afill traited with the Ulster
:03:21. > :03:24.Unionist Party. He has worked as a research for David Simpson.
:03:24. > :03:29.Although he was never a member of the DUP, I am told. He is a member
:03:29. > :03:35.of the Loyal Orders. He's been personally touched by the troubles,
:03:35. > :03:39.in that his father was shot dead by the IRA in 1979. I understand he
:03:39. > :03:44.has worked around victims' issues. Mike Nesbitt was aware of him,
:03:44. > :03:51.having been a former Victims' Commissioner. He is going to bring
:03:51. > :03:56.victims' issues very much to the fore in this election. Was Francie
:03:56. > :04:03.Molloy's candidacy an important factor in the selection? I think it
:04:03. > :04:05.was. Peter Robinson says this is not about attempting to embarrass
:04:05. > :04:11.Sinn Fein or any Sinn Fein candidate, who I think will be
:04:11. > :04:16.asked some hard questions in the media going back to this allegation,
:04:16. > :04:22.which he denies, under parliamentary privilege. There's
:04:22. > :04:28.been no immediate speech from him. He is due to table his papers
:04:28. > :04:32.tomorrow. Some unionists I spoke to tonight inside Moneymore described
:04:32. > :04:36.this as Francie Molloy's worst nightmare. What are the
:04:36. > :04:40.implications? Some significant figures have had to stand aside.
:04:40. > :04:44.There is a picture of a sitting MLA in the constituency, who might have
:04:44. > :04:49.thought herself in the running for the candidacy. She has stepped
:04:49. > :04:56.aside or been looked over. Will Mike Nesbitt have to deal with some
:04:56. > :05:01.people who are not very happy about what has happened? Well, tonight's
:05:01. > :05:07.meeting was unanimous. She has signed Nigel Lutton's nomination
:05:07. > :05:12.papers, as had the DUP's sitting MLA. This is going to cause a
:05:13. > :05:17.miniearthquake, at the very least, inside the party. We know Basil
:05:17. > :05:23.McCrea is on record saying this is a resigning matter. He said he
:05:23. > :05:27.would not be happy with a candidate here. This is not a strategy he
:05:27. > :05:30.supports. Although it has been described as a one-off, I spoke to
:05:30. > :05:33.another who is very unhappy. He said they said that about another
:05:33. > :05:40.by-election. I think we will see some significant developments in
:05:40. > :05:45.the hours ahead. Thank you very much. With me in the
:05:45. > :05:49.studio John McCallister, who locked horns with his party leader over
:05:49. > :05:57.his concerns over sleepwalking into unionist unity and Professor Rick
:05:57. > :06:01.Wilford. Thank you very much for joining us. Martina Purdy said it
:06:01. > :06:06.will cause difficulties for Mike Nesbitt. It puts you in a difficult
:06:06. > :06:12.position. Where does it leave you tonight? It leaves me - earlier on
:06:12. > :06:15.this evening I spoke to Mike Nesbitt. I also spoke to my
:06:16. > :06:22.constituency party and informed the party leader and the constituency
:06:22. > :06:26.party that I would resign as a member of the Ulster Unionist party
:06:26. > :06:32.imimmediately. I have sent an open letter, which I have given to you
:06:32. > :06:36.as well, with the reasons. I have huge difficulty with the strategy.
:06:36. > :06:44.I know, incident lay ehave known Nigel Lutton works for a victims'
:06:44. > :06:48.group. I have met him. It is not personality for me. It is about
:06:48. > :06:54.principal. I disagree with the principal of unionist unity. I
:06:54. > :06:59.don't want to be a part of that. be clear - you have resigned? You
:06:59. > :07:05.are announcing you have resigned? Yes. I've informed the party leader.
:07:05. > :07:10.I have sent a letter with my resignation with immediate effect.
:07:10. > :07:14.I am no longer a member. I know you spoke to Mike Nesbitt when you came
:07:14. > :07:23.into the building tonight. Did he try and get you to change your
:07:23. > :07:28.mind? We had a brief conversation. We made contact - he was not
:07:28. > :07:32.hearing it from anyone else, or this programme. He didn't try to
:07:32. > :07:37.make me change my mind. We agreed we differed about the strategy and
:07:37. > :07:42.we were unlikely to agree with the strategy in the future. You gave me
:07:42. > :07:51.a copy of the open letter as we came on air tonight. It is a bit of
:07:51. > :07:55.a bomb-shell letter. You accuse Mike Nesbitt of contradicting his
:07:55. > :08:03.policy of wanting the Ulster Unionist Party to be progressive.
:08:03. > :08:08.You say he has abandoned that for a backward looking insular politics.
:08:08. > :08:13.The last time - obviously coming on your programme does my programme no
:08:13. > :08:17.end of good. The last time I was on here, it is when I was fired as
:08:17. > :08:21.deputy leader, for apparently at that time of saying we were in
:08:21. > :08:27.danger of sleepwalking into unity. I used that phrase that night,
:08:27. > :08:32.looks like a tog, walks like a dog, probably is a dog. How much more do
:08:32. > :08:36.we need to take? The week before - and that quote you mention in
:08:36. > :08:43.September, Mike used a speech. I said to him that day I was very
:08:43. > :08:47.supportve of those views, -- supportive of those views. This
:08:48. > :08:55.entirely contradicts this strategy - this entirely contradicts that if
:08:55. > :09:01.you are only looking to narrow down unionism to the lowest common dough
:09:01. > :09:06.nomminater. He has opted to become Peter Robinson's junior partner -
:09:06. > :09:16.is that how you see it? The smaller party in a coalition becomes that.
:09:16. > :09:18.
:09:18. > :09:26.That is just the nature of it. They have 38MLAs. With me, 14 MLAs. One
:09:26. > :09:30.who does not have the whip. You are done to 13 MLAs. We're not in the
:09:30. > :09:36.same league as the DUP. The only way back is not getting closer and
:09:36. > :09:41.close tore the DUP on all these issues. I will get some assessment
:09:41. > :09:47.from Professor Wilford in a second. Does this mean it is an independent
:09:47. > :09:51.MLA? This was a very difficult decision to come to. Certainly, I
:09:51. > :09:56.spoke to the constituency party and I have always been grateful to them
:09:56. > :10:02.for their support and help throughout my time. Yes, I will
:10:02. > :10:06.stand as an independent unionist for the time being. Where does that
:10:07. > :10:13.leave Basil McCrea, your close colleague? I suspect - I would be
:10:13. > :10:17.surprised if he did not resign very, very quickly. He has said, very,
:10:17. > :10:24.very clearly, much as you did previously, that if a unity
:10:24. > :10:27.candidate were to be selected, he could not remain in the party.
:10:27. > :10:33.think he's out of the Ulster Unionist Party. It is more a
:10:33. > :10:39.question of when, not if. That's, for me personally, it is sad that
:10:39. > :10:44.it has come to that - the strategy I disagree with. Where does this
:10:44. > :10:48.leave the Ulster Unionist Party? He is pleased he's done a deal, but he
:10:48. > :10:54.has lost one party member since we have been on air and there's a
:10:54. > :11:02.prediction that a second one will go sooner rather than later? It is
:11:02. > :11:07.inevitable. I think the option with John and Basil will have to
:11:07. > :11:10.confront is whether the three combine to form an alternative
:11:10. > :11:16.presence within the Assembly. That would enable them to have, in terms
:11:16. > :11:21.of speaking rights and so on. In terms of the wider strategy, I find
:11:21. > :11:27.it difficult to disagree with John. This looks like an admission of
:11:27. > :11:32.defeat. If you just thought, well how can things get worse and here
:11:32. > :11:36.they are fracturing over this issue. In fact, actually what the
:11:36. > :11:41.electorate require is a clear choice between the more progressive
:11:41. > :11:46.and perhaps the more conservative element. Which is perhaps John
:11:46. > :11:55.McCallister's point? Precisely. It is difficult to see where this
:11:55. > :12:00.decision is. Is this, for example, going to be a precursor to
:12:00. > :12:04.something which will end up with the relationship consummated so you
:12:04. > :12:08.have one larger party? The risk is, in terms of Northern Ireland, it
:12:08. > :12:14.will not turn out to be a country at ease with itself, because it
:12:14. > :12:21.will make politics here even more of an either or choice for electors.
:12:21. > :12:25.I think that is damaging. What about Mid-Ulster? We have a new
:12:25. > :12:31.candidate. When you look at the numbers - there's not a huge chance
:12:31. > :12:36.of that individual wining the seat? Absolutely not. I think what is
:12:36. > :12:40.interesting about this and I don't know Mr Lutton, but it is an
:12:40. > :12:44.interesting choice. Perhaps a deliberate choice. This will lend
:12:44. > :12:53.an enormous amount of emotion to this campaign. Probably it will get
:12:53. > :13:03.bitter, I think. The fact that he was a victim and Molloy, the Sinn
:13:03. > :13:09.
:13:09. > :13:12.Fein candidate, will lend heat and $:/STARTFEED. Hopelessly divided,
:13:12. > :13:15.sheltering behind an ever growing number of peace walls and without
:13:15. > :13:18.any kind of strategy for bringing people closer together. That's the
:13:18. > :13:28.image many have of Northern Ireland. But as Gareth Gordon now reports,
:13:28. > :13:35.
:13:35. > :13:45.that might not be the whole story. Almost 20 years after the first
:13:45. > :13:50.
:13:50. > :13:54.ceasefires, the signs of division are impossible to ignore. Walls
:13:54. > :13:58.like these are the most obvious signs of division. The perception
:13:58. > :14:06.may be the two communities are living increasingly separate lives,
:14:06. > :14:10.but perception is one thing, reality may be quite different.
:14:10. > :14:14.is showing new patterns of population change in Belfast.
:14:14. > :14:21.his office at Queen's University, this professor has been looking at
:14:21. > :14:28.recent census figures. His findings are surprising. The interesting
:14:28. > :14:33.thing is between 2001 and 2011, it seems segregation has fallen across
:14:33. > :14:39.Northern Ireland when we look across Northern Ireland. There are
:14:39. > :14:43.a number of things that could be going on. There are some areas
:14:43. > :14:48.perhaps where there is genuine mixing and we could perhaps isolate
:14:48. > :14:52.that and see what their experiences. Overall, there is the loss of
:14:52. > :15:00.demographic momentum in the Protestant community, there are
:15:00. > :15:05.more Prosser's since dying than being born -- Protestants being --
:15:05. > :15:11.being born. That perhaps explains some part of the decrease in
:15:11. > :15:18.segregation. There are fewer highly Protestant areas with a
:15:18. > :15:20.preponderance of Protestants. is what has shown the largest
:15:20. > :15:26.is what has shown the largest decrease in Protestant population,
:15:26. > :15:29.down one quarter in ten years. By contrast, they contrast in the
:15:29. > :15:36.contrast, they contrast in the Catholic population show and less
:15:36. > :15:41.dramatic decrease. Public parks are supposed to bring people together.
:15:41. > :15:51.Alexandra Park in north Belfast has its own war, men to keep them apart,
:15:51. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :16:00.but a gate has been open to allow access -- wall. Genuine relations
:16:00. > :16:04.are being built between communities. It is not a symbol of an enemy
:16:04. > :16:13.community on either side, people are building sustainable
:16:13. > :16:17.relationships. Is that happening? That is real. People see that. This
:16:17. > :16:24.is an example of a piece gate opening and there is another that
:16:24. > :16:28.has recently opened. People are living closer together. We are
:16:28. > :16:36.seeing the generation occurring. It is minimal, but it is starting to
:16:37. > :16:40.happen. This is a community worker from a nearby Catholic new large.
:16:40. > :16:48.She said communities are increasingly mixing in social
:16:48. > :16:55.settings, but living together is different. We have young ones, from
:16:55. > :17:02.17, two senior citizens. They are taking part in the events we run.
:17:02. > :17:10.As far as living together, I do not think things have changed much.
:17:10. > :17:16.it changed? It probably has changed a bit. I do not think it has
:17:16. > :17:20.changed a lot. At the Community Relations Council, signs of more
:17:20. > :17:25.integration are welcome but they would like more help from
:17:25. > :17:33.politicians. Even with these figures, it is still a divided
:17:33. > :17:38.society. There is a long way to go. Anything that suggests the shape of
:17:38. > :17:46.society is changing it is bound to be welcome. What is absent now is a
:17:46. > :17:53.clear strategy for how we pursue it more vigorously. One note of
:17:53. > :18:02.caution. The figures are from before the recent tensions over the
:18:02. > :18:12.Union flag. But the findings so far may help those who despair that the
:18:12. > :18:14.
:18:14. > :18:19.walls will ever come down. The cost of looking after older
:18:19. > :18:23.people is under scrutiny after the Tories announced they want to limit
:18:23. > :18:28.some residents contributions to their care at �75,000. Changes to
:18:28. > :18:38.the system here are out to consultation. It is not clear what
:18:38. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :19:19.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:19:20. > :19:23.the Department of Health has in We meet to discuss this is the
:19:23. > :19:27.chair of the storm and health committee of Sinn Fein and John
:19:28. > :19:32.McCallister, who stayed with us to discuss an issue he has raised at
:19:32. > :19:39.Stormont. I suppose you are joining us as an independent after your
:19:39. > :19:45.announcement. Who should be paying for social care in Northern Ireland
:19:45. > :19:50.in the future? It is important the discussion has started again and
:19:50. > :19:55.that currently it is out for consultation. Without getting to
:19:55. > :20:01.specifics, if we are talking about the health service being free at
:20:01. > :20:06.the point of delivery, we cannot pick and choose which part is.
:20:06. > :20:12.the problem is this part of care is very expensive. The report in
:20:12. > :20:17.England recommended age limit of �35,000. And now the Conservative
:20:17. > :20:22.government said it should be �75,000. Do you think people should
:20:22. > :20:28.not have to pay anything? In we are serious about it being free, we
:20:28. > :20:33.should ensure health gets funding and look at ways at which we
:20:33. > :20:41.increase funding and to go back, it is an issue every party has agreed
:20:41. > :20:45.arm. -- agreed upon. When we look at the issue of adult social care.
:20:45. > :20:52.I am glad the discussion has started again. If we'd talk about
:20:52. > :20:59.transforming care, we need to ensure people have resources in
:20:59. > :21:05.place to do that. John McCallister was on the health committee. It is
:21:05. > :21:09.something you have talked about a lot. Do you think our guest is
:21:09. > :21:14.living in a fantasy world when she puts forward the theory that the
:21:14. > :21:20.state should pay for care in these circumstances? She is right in that
:21:20. > :21:26.most of the parties at any time, we have broadly agreed this was an
:21:26. > :21:31.aspiration. Not dissimilar to Scotland. I would say that some of
:21:31. > :21:35.what came out in the report was looking at bringing... If you had
:21:35. > :21:41.to limit, you would bring a certainty. At the moment, you have
:21:41. > :21:49.no idea. If you are paying for someone coming you have no idea
:21:49. > :21:54.where the cut-off point is. There is none. You have no way of
:21:54. > :22:04.planning how you will meet the financial commitment. That is a big
:22:04. > :22:04.
:22:04. > :22:14.problem. There are people who are asset-rich but cash poor, people
:22:14. > :22:20.knew -- who owned farms are houses and have worked hard. If that is
:22:20. > :22:25.important. We need to strip this back. If we do that to what the
:22:25. > :22:32.health services about, being free. If we pick and choose, do we charge
:22:32. > :22:37.people when they go into hospital? We need to have the fundamental
:22:37. > :22:43.debate that we agreed health should be free and we need to find a way
:22:43. > :22:48.to fund health. If you agree it should be free, you have to put out
:22:48. > :22:55.a plan on how you pay for it. We have the idea we wanted to be free
:22:55. > :23:01.but we have not put in place a mechanism to pay for it. If we are
:23:01. > :23:06.going to be serious about making a difference, let's be serious about
:23:06. > :23:12.tax-raising powers. There is a reluctance to go down that route.
:23:12. > :23:17.am not saying we need to bring in that, we could have a discussion
:23:17. > :23:23.and say to people if there is a possibility your taxes go to
:23:24. > :23:32.providing that, people will buy into it. We have come out of a 40
:23:32. > :23:37.year conflict. What we need to say to the British Government, give us
:23:37. > :23:41.the peace dividend so we have a level playing field for our people.
:23:41. > :23:46.The difficulty is we have an ageing population. The proportion of all
:23:46. > :23:53.the people in Northern Ireland in nursing homes is 3.5 times higher
:23:53. > :23:59.than it is in England and Wales. This is a real problem. It is a
:23:59. > :24:06.massive problem. We should celebrate getting old! It is fine
:24:06. > :24:13.if you are looked after properly. People are terrified and people's
:24:13. > :24:17.children are terrified about the implications. Some of what you are
:24:17. > :24:27.saying comes back to the point of transforming to care and how to
:24:27. > :24:33.
:24:33. > :24:37.keep people healthier longer. We need to find a way of funding in
:24:37. > :24:43.health provision and care of the elderly. It is not fair that people
:24:43. > :24:53.can lose their home or are forced to take measures like signing over
:24:53. > :24:55.
:24:55. > :25:03.the family home. The system ends up like a dog's dinner. Would you
:25:03. > :25:09.suggest a limit? We suggested around the first -- 35,000. You
:25:09. > :25:16.would look at what is affordable. I would introduce the limit as a
:25:16. > :25:20.staging-post to move to where you want to go. How would you pay for
:25:20. > :25:30.it? Is admirable you want it to be free, but tell me how you would pay
:25:30. > :25:33.
:25:33. > :25:40.for it? There is the same about spending to save. Every year, if we
:25:40. > :25:45.ensure people are kept out of a hospital, we would save. We must
:25:45. > :25:50.ensure the money... I know what John is saying that I would not
:25:50. > :26:00.pre-empt the consultation. It is a debate that will continue
:26:00. > :26:08.instalment and elsewhere. We can hear from our commentators. Rick
:26:09. > :26:14.Wilford is with us. Let me ask about social care. Deidre, you have
:26:14. > :26:19.been looking at this. Is it possible to do what our guest was
:26:19. > :26:24.saying and what others would like to do? In has been discussed by
:26:24. > :26:29.politicians and they agree ideally we would have free social care. We
:26:29. > :26:34.do not live in an ideal world. It is about priorities. We know
:26:34. > :26:39.Scotland prioritise social care and it is free. We have to say where do
:26:39. > :26:45.we set the priorities? What priority do we attach to adore
:26:45. > :26:51.social care. The pate -- the point was made clearly, it is welcome we
:26:51. > :26:56.are discussing it but we need clarity. If you are planning care,
:26:56. > :27:02.it is impossible without knowing what charges will be and what the
:27:02. > :27:07.limit will be. If you look at the review, they said �35,000 was a
:27:07. > :27:12.reasonable limit. The Tories went for more than double. There is an
:27:12. > :27:18.issue around what is a fair amount and what people are willing to pay
:27:18. > :27:24.and the expectation. Many people think if they have worked all their
:27:24. > :27:29.life they are entitled to free care. But if it is a devolved issue it is
:27:29. > :27:39.not enough to say it is an aspiration, we have to ask where
:27:39. > :27:48.
:27:48. > :27:53.It is simply saying, here are all the problems, here are the
:27:53. > :27:57.difficulties, we know it is complicated, we know people tonight
:27:57. > :28:02.want to pay. They have no recommendations for the way forward,
:28:03. > :28:12.saying this is the suitable way. We have a growing, ageing population,
:28:12. > :28:18.with completion needs. -- complex needs. Today we have a political
:28:18. > :28:23.wobble over the police questioning of Mr Kelly. He has been released
:28:23. > :28:29.from custody. The fallout has been considerable, hasn't it? It is. It
:28:29. > :28:33.was interesting that Peter Robinson, as soon as he heard this
:28:33. > :28:37.announcement, he made this announcement about the dangerous
:28:37. > :28:43.consequences this would have for the political process and ask to
:28:43. > :28:47.see the chibl. What that indicates is how -- chief constable. What
:28:47. > :28:53.that indicates is how difficult the talks between the parties are. That,
:28:53. > :29:01.I think frankly, the forthcoming by-election will do nothing to stop
:29:01. > :29:05.that situation. It is how he came out with that statement, which
:29:05. > :29:14.suggested that there was something rotten.
:29:14. > :29:18.Let's talk about tweets. There have many -- been many. Mine have from
:29:18. > :29:28.News Biscuit. This is an News Biscuit. This is an
:29:28. > :29:37.
:29:37. > :29:42.interesting one. It refers to the horsemeat saga. An
:29:42. > :29:48.article said there was vegetarians with self-satisfaction over the
:29:48. > :29:55.crisis that meat-eaters are facing. Who would have thought the Pope
:29:55. > :30:05.would have pre-empted Basil McCrea in the resignation stakes?
:30:05. > :30:06.
:30:06. > :30:11.We will have to add you into that tweet. Basil will not be happy.
:30:11. > :30:19.Our Twitter account is very busy tonight after the resignation. We
:30:19. > :30:22.hope have the letter of resignation up on Twitter and on the BBC News
:30:22. > :30:29.website soon. Jim Allister, certainly a sense of humour with
:30:29. > :30:35.that Tweet. Your look ahead? I am looking ahead to the debate next
:30:35. > :30:38.week. There'll be some discussion about the state and whether it
:30:38. > :30:42.accepts responsibility. I think the victims' groups are saying they
:30:42. > :30:47.will not, even though it is clear that the fing ser pointing at them
:30:47. > :30:51.that they will not -- finger is pointing at them that they will not
:30:51. > :30:55.because they don't want to pay compensation. They will say they
:30:55. > :31:00.accept the stigma, but not the blame. I think there'll be a strong
:31:00. > :31:07.lobby group saying the State must accept the blame, given they had
:31:07. > :31:12.report of young girls who did not have a bus ticket and were sent to
:31:12. > :31:15.this places for a number of years. You are looking ahead to Eastleigh?
:31:15. > :31:22.It is coming early as it were. We will get two by-elections within
:31:22. > :31:27.the space of a week. Eastleigh in a fortnight, Mid-Ulster the following
:31:27. > :31:32.week. Particularly exciting. It is fascinating. We will follow it blow