:00:30. > :00:35.within the executive, are they having a knock-on effect on the
:00:35. > :00:40.economy? If they were a business, they would be bankrupt. They have
:00:40. > :00:44.had time, opportunity and money. a leading businessman Carson eye on
:00:44. > :00:50.politicians, we will get a ministerial response.
:00:50. > :00:55.It was a student activist in this 60s, tonight Simon Callow joins us
:00:55. > :00:58.with his thoughts on the politics of Northern Ireland today. In
:00:58. > :01:05.Commentators' Corner, Baroness May Blood and Professor Deirdre Heenan.
:01:05. > :01:09.You can follow the programme on twitter.
:01:09. > :01:14.It was the week that the executive 's internal divisions were once
:01:14. > :01:18.again exposed. Martin McGuinness attacked Unionists commitment to
:01:18. > :01:23.power-sharing and the DUP responded by questioning Sinn Fein's
:01:23. > :01:26.commitment to policing. What impact is this dispute having? Gareth
:01:26. > :01:36.Gordon has been speaking to one of Northern Ireland's leading
:01:36. > :01:45.
:01:46. > :01:55.industrialist about the impact of Memories, the moment they said would
:01:56. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :02:02.never happen, but that was then. Long gone are the days of the
:02:02. > :02:08.chuckle Brothers. No one is laughing now. All of us will be greatly
:02:08. > :02:13.helped if Unionism ended the pretence that may not working the
:02:13. > :02:18.Good Agreement institutions. People need to be a government, not because
:02:18. > :02:21.they have to be, but because they want to be. We will hold them
:02:21. > :02:27.accountable because that is our job and that is why we went into
:02:27. > :02:32.government. Things are so bad that apparently this week they already
:02:32. > :02:37.decided to hold what has been described as a bonding session.
:02:38. > :02:41.So, what effect is this instability having? Let's remember that the
:02:41. > :02:46.executive's main priority is said to be the economy. That's try telling
:02:46. > :02:52.that to the man who runs this successful company outside Lisbon.
:02:52. > :02:58.John Cunningham's Camelon group employs around 200 people supplying
:02:58. > :03:02.and developing cutting edge product for the power industry. What does he
:03:02. > :03:06.think of the power wielded by the executive?
:03:06. > :03:15.If they wear business they would be bankrupt. They have had time, money,
:03:15. > :03:22.opportunity. They would be bankrupt. Seriously? Of course.They are a
:03:22. > :03:25.business to some extent, so what should the people do? That is not up
:03:25. > :03:30.to me to decide. I am just saying that if it is a business, it would
:03:31. > :03:35.be long gone. Executive ministers well know who
:03:35. > :03:40.John Cunningham is. It was his factory which was used for the
:03:40. > :03:46.launch of the public consultation into cutting the rate of corporation
:03:46. > :03:50.tax which carries some weight. Over the last 30 years we have been
:03:50. > :03:58.arguing about the same things. That does not seem to be a great deal of
:03:58. > :04:05.progress, Timmy. So, in our world and the world of business we tend to
:04:05. > :04:09.ignore it. Do you watch political coverage? No, none at all. It is of
:04:10. > :04:17.no relevance. Surely the government of the Northern Ireland executive
:04:17. > :04:22.have relevance? Not to us. They do their own thing, we do ours. It is
:04:22. > :04:28.not up to us to change because our attitudes formed by the real world
:04:28. > :04:33.in which we live. The international business community, it is up to the
:04:33. > :04:37.executive to come to terms with the way that we have to live. Are you
:04:38. > :04:47.saying we have not done that? think they have with the present
:04:48. > :04:48.
:04:48. > :04:52.disputes? I do not think so. What do they need to do? I think that they
:04:52. > :04:59.need to look realistically at the problems they are facing. And tackle
:04:59. > :05:03.those. It is a disgrace that our young people are having to leave.
:05:03. > :05:09.That we have completely inadequate education systems and that we just
:05:09. > :05:13.simply cannot provide the people that can fuel and industrial
:05:13. > :05:18.programme. That is a total disgrace that we have a divided education
:05:19. > :05:22.system. There is no logic to those things. If the government is to be a
:05:22. > :05:28.government, it must tackle those issues.
:05:28. > :05:37.As for the executive's latest troubles? I think it is totally
:05:37. > :05:43.nonsensical. It is like watching children argue. What relevance does
:05:43. > :05:49.it have? Why don't they put it all behind and really look and address
:05:49. > :05:53.the problems we are facing. These arguments and these historical
:05:54. > :05:58.things are not going to change the way we go forward. They are only
:05:58. > :06:05.going to keep us in the past. They are not going to keep young people
:06:05. > :06:10.at home and bring prosperity to the province. We should put them behind
:06:10. > :06:15.and move on. We showed John Cunningham 's
:06:15. > :06:20.comments to a leading economist. He makes scathing remarks about
:06:20. > :06:25.local politicians and some of those fair. Look at the skills problems he
:06:25. > :06:30.has. Our education are nobodies responsibility but our own and if we
:06:30. > :06:34.are failing our children, it is our responsibility. What he misses is
:06:34. > :06:37.that politicians have pressures on their time as well. If we the
:06:37. > :06:40.electorate are constantly asking tribal questions, they have to
:06:40. > :06:47.provide tribal answers. We need the electorate to make business issues
:06:47. > :06:49.and pressing on to our local executive that we need jobs for our
:06:49. > :06:59.people and most importantly for our children because they are simply not
:06:59. > :07:12.
:07:12. > :07:16.Gareth Gordon reporting. We asked the DUP and Sinn Fein to provide a
:07:17. > :07:21.minister to join us, but both parties said no one was available.
:07:21. > :07:26.The Alliance party and the Ulster Unionists could not oblige, but
:07:26. > :07:30.joining me is Alex Attwood of the STL P. Thank you for joining us on
:07:30. > :07:34.the programme. We heard from John Cunningham, a leading industrialist.
:07:34. > :07:42.How concerned are you to hear an man like that say that if the executive
:07:42. > :07:48.was a business it would be bankrupt? What John Cunningham captures is
:07:48. > :07:52.that the ambition and the opportunity and the hope of the Good
:07:52. > :07:56.Friday Agreement, that should have been around as for the last 15
:07:56. > :08:02.years, is evaporating before our eyes. I think that sends a very
:08:02. > :08:05.strong message to all politicians and all parties, but particularly
:08:05. > :08:11.those who have been given, by democracy, the lead responsibility
:08:11. > :08:16.to fulfil the ambition and the hopes and the opportunities.
:08:16. > :08:21.He says politicians are not doing their job. Has he got a fair point?
:08:21. > :08:25.I think it does have a fair point. I think that too much, over the last
:08:25. > :08:30.five years, the DUP and Sinn Fein have settled for the fact that they
:08:30. > :08:33.have got devolution, flawed though it is, and we have made a stand
:08:33. > :08:38.against terror. Whilst those are important achievements, I think
:08:38. > :08:42.people have many more needs and many more hopes than that and that the
:08:42. > :08:47.DUP and Sinn Fein, in my view, are clearly running out of steam and
:08:47. > :08:51.running out of road. We have seen these flinty exchanges
:08:52. > :08:55.between members of Sinn Fein and members of the DUP in the past week
:08:55. > :09:00.or ten days. We hear rumblings that things are not good around the
:09:00. > :09:04.executive table. Use it at that table. You are on the inside looking
:09:04. > :09:10.out. You know what is said and how people react to each other. Is it as
:09:10. > :09:14.bad as we hear it is? It is frosty, there is no doubt. It
:09:14. > :09:20.is more frosty than it has been for the last five years, but rather than
:09:20. > :09:23.curse the darkness, as the saying goes, we have to lie to candle. My
:09:23. > :09:27.view is that people are beginning to realise that for all the
:09:27. > :09:33.achievements of the last five years, Sinn Fein and the DUP now have the
:09:33. > :09:37.answers to expand north south for economic growth, to deal with narrow
:09:37. > :09:41.water, to deal with the issue of housing flags and people are
:09:41. > :09:47.beginning to say, we acknowledge what has been achieved, but you
:09:47. > :09:51.don't have the wherewithal or the conviction or commitment that is
:09:51. > :09:53.desperately needed in order to deal with all these historic issues and
:09:53. > :09:58.in order to ensure that the government measures up to the needs
:09:58. > :10:01.of the people. When you say it is frosty, what does
:10:01. > :10:05.that mean? Does that mean the relationship between the first
:10:05. > :10:11.Minister and the Deputy first Minister is not functioning?
:10:11. > :10:18.I think it is deeper than that. There is a sense of tension and at
:10:18. > :10:23.times open conflict between various ministers. Not just those two?Far
:10:23. > :10:27.from it. It is a tendency between some DUP and Sinn Fein ministers.
:10:27. > :10:31.The issue is not to analyse what is going around the executive table, it
:10:31. > :10:37.is to deal with the issues that John Cunningham and people are crying out
:10:37. > :10:42.for. Is it about prickly relationships
:10:42. > :10:47.between individuals around the table or are their policy differences?
:10:47. > :10:53.It is all of those things, but a part of it is that in my observation
:10:53. > :10:58.over the past three years, the DUP want to do politics on their terms.
:10:58. > :11:05.That is why we have had problems around north-south and narrow water.
:11:05. > :11:08.That is why we have had the DUP resisting the authority of the
:11:08. > :11:13.commission. The problem has been compiled by the fact that Sinn Fein
:11:13. > :11:18.have been wreaked -- week around that. So what is the answer? If it
:11:18. > :11:22.is the case, and people are beginning to see it is the case,
:11:22. > :11:27.that the DUP and Sinn Fein either don't have the ambition to live up
:11:27. > :11:31.to the agreement in politics and how will we resolve that issue? In my
:11:31. > :11:36.view, people are beginning to say that the DUP and Sinn Fein have run
:11:36. > :11:41.out of road. We now need people to take a stand the next road.
:11:41. > :11:44.But people keep voting for them. They are by far the biggest parties
:11:44. > :11:49.in Northern Ireland. Whatever they are doing wrong, people still vote
:11:49. > :11:53.for them. There have been a lot of reasons why
:11:54. > :11:56.that has arisen in the last five to ten years. We are now entering a new
:11:56. > :12:01.phase of politics where people are saying there is unfinished business
:12:01. > :12:06.to deal with our past and the future. Who will lead and shape
:12:06. > :12:08.that's? I think people have tested and see what the DUP and Sinn Fein
:12:08. > :12:16.contribution is to it and have seen that they have run out of conviction
:12:16. > :12:22.ideas. Is it time for opposition to get out of the executive room and
:12:22. > :12:26.actually criticise those who remain in its? Opposition is an option, but
:12:26. > :12:30.what people want to see is strong, good government in difficult times,
:12:30. > :12:37.rather than flare ups between the DUP and Sinn Fein. People want to
:12:37. > :12:42.see the agreement that is 15 years old is not degraded before our very
:12:42. > :12:46.eyes and the hope and ambition of that is achieved.
:12:46. > :12:50.In practical terms, what could you as a politician sitting around the
:12:50. > :12:55.executive table do to make things better?
:12:55. > :13:01.I am one person from one party around the table. According to Peter
:13:01. > :13:07.Robinson a number of months ago, the positions of the SDLP redefine
:13:07. > :13:11.north-south and narrow water, housing become the position of Sinn
:13:11. > :13:16.Fein. What conclusion do you draw from that? The conclusion I draw is
:13:16. > :13:20.that political ground is not shaped by the DUP and Sinn Fein, it is
:13:20. > :13:24.shaped by those who honour the Good Friday Agreement in all aspects.
:13:24. > :13:30.That is where the people of this part of the world want to go, given
:13:30. > :13:33.the problems we are now seeing. me ask you a final thing because the
:13:34. > :13:39.DUP and Sinn Fein have chosen not to be here to night and that is their
:13:39. > :13:45.right, but what they might say and I have heard them say elsewhere is,
:13:45. > :13:49.look, it is working. Coalition government is not easy. Not easy in
:13:49. > :13:54.London or Dublin, but we are working together. Statement they issued
:13:54. > :13:57.today, the new centre will send out a powerful signal to the
:13:57. > :14:03.international community, we are building a brighter and better
:14:03. > :14:07.shared future together. Not easy, but that is what they are doing.
:14:07. > :14:10.get no argument from me that it came at a terrible human costs.
:14:11. > :14:18.Eventually all parties agreed that we need to have devolution and stand
:14:18. > :14:23.against terror. If today's decision in approving the centre in the May's
:14:23. > :14:28.galvanises people to look to the future rather than be preoccupied
:14:28. > :14:32.with the conflicts of the past, I welcome that. The problem is that
:14:32. > :14:42.people have expectations and hopes way beyond the achievements of
:14:42. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:46.devolution. Will those be realised After the struggles and pain we've
:14:47. > :14:50.gone through, I think people will be wise enough to go forward. I
:14:50. > :14:54.think they will run out of steam. People are increasingly looking for
:14:54. > :15:01.those who articulate those values best for the future of this part of
:15:01. > :15:05.Ireland. He is regarded as one of the foremost actors of his
:15:05. > :15:09.generation, but 45 years ago he arrived in Belfast as an
:15:09. > :15:14.undergraduate at Queen's University in the early days of the civil
:15:14. > :15:19.rights movement. Now, four-and-a- half decades later, he's back in
:15:19. > :15:29.Belfast and ABBA talking to him in just a minute. -- and I'll be
:15:29. > :16:08.
:16:08. > :16:12.Simon Callow, welcome to The View. You were politically active in
:16:12. > :16:16.Belfast in the late 1960s, are you still a close follower of the
:16:16. > :16:20.political scene in Northern Ireland today? I wouldn't say it close, but
:16:20. > :16:26.I do come quite often to Northern Ireland, especially Belfast, and I
:16:26. > :16:30.keep my ear to the ground. curious thing is that although I
:16:30. > :16:34.was here very briefly at university, I've kept a part of Belfast in my
:16:34. > :16:38.heart and wherever I go I talk about Belfast and Northern Ireland
:16:38. > :16:42.people who may not know. You were, for a very short period of time,
:16:42. > :16:45.very involved in student politics come at a time when the civil
:16:45. > :16:52.rights movement was really in its early days. There was a lot
:16:52. > :16:56.happening in the students' union at Queen's at that time. Yes, 68 it
:16:56. > :17:00.was. Queens for a time was the absolute centre of what you might
:17:00. > :17:05.call progressive thinking. Then, as it were, the genie was let out of
:17:05. > :17:11.the bottle. I left Queens, I ran away to become an actor. But I left
:17:11. > :17:17.at exactly the moment the genuine explosive element entered into it.
:17:17. > :17:25.But you took part in some of those demonstrations. You were there with
:17:25. > :17:28.Bernadette Devlin. Yes, I was very much part of that. As a foot
:17:28. > :17:32.soldier, I was just handing out leaflets and was deeply committed
:17:32. > :17:42.to the cause. I marched and had my actions smacked and all of the rest
:17:42. > :17:45.
:17:45. > :17:49.of it. As an outsider?Absolutely. That finally came to me, I was
:17:49. > :17:54.handing out leaflets in Shaftesbury Square. A lady came up to me and
:17:54. > :18:01.said, sunny, it's not your problem, go back home. I kind of thought,
:18:01. > :18:09.she's right in that sense. I was an outsider. But you are back and a
:18:09. > :18:15.you never lost touch with the place. No, I came back in the worst of
:18:15. > :18:20.times as well, in the 70s. I came with a theatre company, I really
:18:20. > :18:25.had to persuade them. For half-an- hour, I persuaded them it was
:18:25. > :18:33.absolutely what they had to do because we were needed. The theatre
:18:33. > :18:36.company was needed. You've come back at a time when we are post
:18:36. > :18:39.conflict. Do you think Northern Ireland has lived up to the
:18:39. > :18:43.expectations that so many people had, visit the place that many
:18:43. > :18:52.people, 15 years ago when the agreement was being signed, thought
:18:52. > :18:55.it could be? There was astonishing optimism both inside and outside of
:18:56. > :18:59.Northern Ireland. In those five or six years after the agreement, an
:18:59. > :19:04.astonishing change in the basic psychology of Belfast and Northern
:19:05. > :19:09.Ireland. It is true that one has sensed that Ebico way. There's a
:19:09. > :19:17.kind of depletion, the stock of good will seems to have run out.
:19:17. > :19:21.That is a heartbreaking thing to watch from the outside. You were
:19:21. > :19:24.one of the first prominent British actors to come out as a gay man,
:19:24. > :19:31.although you'd never describe yourself as an activist. You will
:19:31. > :19:39.know that Northern Ireland lags behind in various things in -- that
:19:39. > :19:45.the UK are heading. Does it bother you? In 68, hummers sexual roles
:19:45. > :19:48.were regarded as the devil incarnate. -- homosexuals. There's
:19:48. > :19:52.been a huge step forward, so one must be very grateful for that. But
:19:52. > :19:56.the problem is a lot of things like gay marriage, gay adoption and
:19:56. > :20:01.giving of blood are so petty, such small things. They're not really to
:20:01. > :20:04.do with any fundamental opposition. The reasons are not sound. It's
:20:04. > :20:08.just a withholding of final approval of the idea that gay
:20:08. > :20:16.people are just like everybody else. That is all anybody wants to say.
:20:16. > :20:25.Gay people are like everybody else. But the politicians in Northern
:20:25. > :20:29.Ireland don't quite see it that way. So I understand. But the people of
:20:29. > :20:34.Northern Ireland when questioned in opinion polls, they don't have that
:20:34. > :20:39.point of view. They may be abuse like that in small enclaves, just
:20:39. > :20:44.like in England. Having come from a position growing up as a young, gay
:20:44. > :20:51.man, homosexuality was absolutely illegal. To have come where we have
:20:51. > :20:58.come is absolutely astonishing. So one is very grateful for that in a
:20:58. > :21:08.sense. But I think it's been one. It's rather like hanging, it has
:21:08. > :21:09.
:21:09. > :21:13.been won. That argument is deeply in the hearts of people. I must ask
:21:13. > :21:17.you about Baroness Thatcher. The arts community, when she moved into
:21:17. > :21:26.Number 10, were very uncomfortable about her approach to culture and
:21:26. > :21:30.film-making. She disapproved of state sponsorship of the arts. She
:21:30. > :21:35.wasn't a cultured woman. She wasn't interested in poetry, literature,
:21:35. > :21:45.art or music. Above all, she didn't like the theatre. I remember
:21:45. > :21:45.
:21:45. > :25:19.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 214 seconds
:25:20. > :25:25.to see the controversies seem to come on an hourly basis. First of
:25:25. > :25:30.all it was the cost, the protest, the role of the police, the state
:25:30. > :25:35.funeral in all but name. In the context of the climate we are living
:25:35. > :25:39.in, but I think most people felt it was a funeral and around a funeral
:25:39. > :25:44.there should be dignity. There was a lot of disquiet about dancing on her
:25:44. > :25:52.grave. A funeral is not a time to look at her policies. There is a
:25:52. > :25:58.human issue. Peter Mandelson had an intriguing insight into Mrs
:25:58. > :26:02.Thatcher's view of Irish people. Let's hear what he had to say.
:26:02. > :26:06.her the day I was appointed Northern Ireland Secretary, our paths crossed
:26:06. > :26:10.and she said I have one thing to say, she said, you can't trust the
:26:11. > :26:20.Irish, they are all liars, lawyers and that is what you have to
:26:21. > :26:29.
:26:29. > :26:34.He was only relaying Baroness Thatcher's comments. Deidre, your
:26:34. > :26:38.tweeted of the week. It comes from a BBC political correspondent in
:26:38. > :26:42.the context of welfare reform. We've been talking about the
:26:42. > :26:45.squeezed middled. He refers to the squeezed bottom. The Financial
:26:45. > :26:49.Times have introduced a new term called the squeezed bottom. He
:26:49. > :26:56.wonders if this will catch on. wonder what he's talking about. I
:26:56. > :27:01.hesitate to ask! The don't ask, we will leave that to the imagination.
:27:01. > :27:07.Looking ahead. Now next week, a report coming out on child
:27:07. > :27:10.education. The minister pointed out on a group on advancing the
:27:10. > :27:15.education. I look forward to the report with greater eagerness,
:27:15. > :27:18.hoping that the recommendations will move us forward. As you heard
:27:18. > :27:24.John Cunningham saying earlier, our education system here is an
:27:24. > :27:29.absolute mess. We need it sorted now. We do. We need to have the
:27:29. > :27:37.debate and vote on. At you are looking ahead to where religious
:27:37. > :27:42.matter. I'm. An event on Sunday. The installation of Eamonn Martin,
:27:42. > :27:49.the archdiocese of Armagh. A wonderful achievement personally,
:27:49. > :27:54.and also wonderful achievement for the city. That is your big look
:27:54. > :27:58.ahead. To go back to the education issue, you are a big supporter of
:27:58. > :28:08.integrated education. Do you think this report can move that debate
:28:08. > :28:10.
:28:10. > :28:13.forward? I hope it does.We have shelves and gather dust. That is my
:28:13. > :28:18.fear. I'm hoping they will come across with fairly decent views. We
:28:18. > :28:22.have to get somewhere into our education system, you've heard the
:28:22. > :28:26.Sillett many times, I work with kids who can hardly read and write.