:00:00. > :00:33.Tonight, tough talking the Haass proposals. Sinn Fein says unionist I
:00:34. > :00:36.don't think of June over extremist, while the DUP Plains Republicans are
:00:37. > :00:39.wallowing in the field of murder. Have relations between the parties
:00:40. > :00:45.hit rock bottom? We will hear from Martin McGuinness. I am fed up, fed
:00:46. > :00:50.up hearing that the public deserve better, are disgusted with their
:00:51. > :00:54.politicians who believe that we can't agree on anything. With more
:00:55. > :00:59.than 50 new councillors appointed by their parties since the last local
:01:00. > :01:03.council election, is the process of co-option and abuse of democracy?
:01:04. > :01:06.I think of the co-option system, because it means that these
:01:07. > :01:10.relatively unknown new councillors now have a leg up for the super
:01:11. > :01:15.council elections in May. Rival plans for a new law on organ
:01:16. > :01:18.donations will stop why can't the DUP and Ulster Unionist Party agree
:01:19. > :01:23.on a single bill? And backing commentator's corner this week, the
:01:24. > :01:25.professors. You can of course join the debate on Twitter, lots of you
:01:26. > :01:37.are. That is on the screen. Relations between the five main
:01:38. > :01:40.parties and the DUP and Sinn Fein in particular are as strange as they
:01:41. > :01:43.have been in a long time. On the face of it, there does not seem to
:01:44. > :01:48.be a lot of common ground on what to do next to progress the Haass
:01:49. > :01:51.proposals. The Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness has been given me
:01:52. > :01:56.his unvarnished thoughts on the current state of play when he came
:01:57. > :01:58.into the studio earlier. I ask them first how useful Tuesday's meeting
:01:59. > :02:04.between the five party leaders had been. I thought it was useful. I
:02:05. > :02:08.thought it was a first opportunity for the five party leaders to sit
:02:09. > :02:14.down and not just reflect on what had happened over the Christmas and
:02:15. > :02:17.New Year period, but to consider whether or not it was a way forward,
:02:18. > :02:23.and that's what I was trying to establish, whether or not we were
:02:24. > :02:28.going to be involved in a serious efforts to explore how we can move
:02:29. > :02:33.forward. I say that against the backdrop of they're not being a lot
:02:34. > :02:41.of confidence in where others are coming from. For example, it was
:02:42. > :02:46.said at one stage that we should set up a mechanism to explore 340
:02:47. > :02:51.elements of what was in the Haass documents. I made it clear I was not
:02:52. > :02:55.interested in dealing with that, that what we needed to see where
:02:56. > :03:01.those parties who had objections to the Haass document, lay those
:03:02. > :03:04.objections on the table so we could explore whether or not there was a
:03:05. > :03:10.way forward. What I am trying to avoid , what I think is important to
:03:11. > :03:16.avoid, is a time wasting exercise. We have had a previous experience
:03:17. > :03:20.during the discussions on these issues, which was down for three
:03:21. > :03:23.years without a resolution. If it was a useful meeting, if what was
:03:24. > :03:28.said in there was help all, and that's what you have suggested, why
:03:29. > :03:32.did you come out to the great hall afterwards and accuse Unionists of
:03:33. > :03:37.listening to extreme elements within their community? Because the
:03:38. > :03:41.elephant in the room at the extreme elements within the loyalist
:03:42. > :03:44.community. Those people who have been fermenting complex on the
:03:45. > :03:50.streets. They have been involved in riots on the street. They have been
:03:51. > :03:57.in Belfast trying to manipulate the situation for their own purposes. I
:03:58. > :03:59.say that as someone who has stood foursquare with my colleagues in the
:04:00. > :04:06.assembly against those people who killed two soldiers, who killed
:04:07. > :04:11.Stephen Carroll, David Black. I expect politicians on the unionist
:04:12. > :04:15.side, whenever the police are being attacked, they were in Belfast city
:04:16. > :04:20.centre with 350 police officers injured, to stand with me in
:04:21. > :04:23.outright unreserved condemnation of the activities of those who would
:04:24. > :04:32.try to drive us back to the past. The . The difficulty is, what you
:04:33. > :04:36.said provoked a response from Nigel Dodds, who hit back, saying that
:04:37. > :04:40.Republicans continue to wallow in the filth of murder. It has been
:04:41. > :04:44.downhill from there, so people outside looking in wonder if you are
:04:45. > :04:47.ever going to be able to resolve the issue whenever you just keep
:04:48. > :04:51.knocking lumps out of each other. I don't consider what I am doing
:04:52. > :04:55.knocking lumps out of anyone. Unionists are very annoyed at what
:04:56. > :04:58.you said. They say they are there as elected representatives, they have a
:04:59. > :05:03.mandate and they are not looking over their shoulder. The macro I
:05:04. > :05:06.tell it as it is. What I say to you, what I said to the media the
:05:07. > :05:09.other day, I have said to the faces of my Unionist colleagues. White
:05:10. > :05:14.macro how did they respond? What did they say? I am not going to respond
:05:15. > :05:18.in the context of what they said, but I absolutely know that within
:05:19. > :05:23.the political ash alums of unionism, they absolutely agree with my
:05:24. > :05:28.analysis that for example, in the city of Belfast, the EUV F, the PU P
:05:29. > :05:33.and the Orange Order are one and the same thing. -- the UVF. And they
:05:34. > :05:42.have been hostile to this process over recent years. They deny that. I
:05:43. > :05:45.also say that as someone who met someone who was involved in the flag
:05:46. > :05:49.processed on at least three occasions last year. I come at it
:05:50. > :05:54.from a position of knowledge of where I think people are coming
:05:55. > :06:00.from. The reality of the situation is, the comments that were made by
:06:01. > :06:04.Nigel refer to a situation in Cassell there, a situation where
:06:05. > :06:08.everyone can learn lessons. But there was no one injured there.
:06:09. > :06:12.There were no stonethrowing, no police officers injured, and a huge
:06:13. > :06:17.attempt was made to have a parade there which would pass peacefully.
:06:18. > :06:21.What I am talking about is, for 18 months, we have seen a situation in
:06:22. > :06:25.the city of Belfast where there has been a deliberate attempt by a
:06:26. > :06:33.extreme elements within loyalism to try to drag us back to the past.
:06:34. > :06:36.They saw Cassell the is very provocative. Let me make this last
:06:37. > :06:47.point. During the course of that 18 months, I never heard one MLA bought
:06:48. > :06:52.one MP -- or one MP from the Unionist side point out who was
:06:53. > :06:58.responsible. It was left to the former Mayor of Belfast, Gavin
:06:59. > :07:02.Robinson. So are you saying there is an absence of leadership within the
:07:03. > :07:08.unionism at the moment? Is that what you are accusing Peter Robinson and
:07:09. > :07:11.Mike Nesbitt? Let me put it like this. I have stood against the
:07:12. > :07:15.activities of so-called republican dissidents. My house has been
:07:16. > :07:18.attacked my wife has been verbally abused in the streets. Slogans have
:07:19. > :07:23.been written all around my house, and my life has been threatened from
:07:24. > :07:28.commemorations that these people have held. I will not be put off by
:07:29. > :07:32.that. I will not bow the knee to that. I will continue to oppose
:07:33. > :07:38.those who continue to try to drag us back to the past, even at the cost
:07:39. > :07:40.of my own life. IUCN Unionists do not recognise that back two della
:07:41. > :07:48.McKerr I am saying we need to see similar leadership from those who
:07:49. > :07:51.have stood back and watched what everybody knows within the media and
:07:52. > :07:59.indeed, within their own parties, is extremism. A truism is that in
:08:00. > :08:04.Belfast, the Orange order, the UVF and the PU P have paid a very
:08:05. > :08:07.negative role in the course of the last few years will stop Unionists
:08:08. > :08:12.watching this will say several things. You cannot say, the UVF, the
:08:13. > :08:15.PU P and the Orange Order are the same. They have made that point time
:08:16. > :08:18.and time again. Secondly, they will say Unionist leaders in Belfast and
:08:19. > :08:25.the young have repeatedly condemned violence when it has taken place
:08:26. > :08:29.from loyalist and have urged those involved in flight processed over
:08:30. > :08:38.the last year to take part in peaceful, lawful process. For a
:08:39. > :08:45.start, Unionist leaders have told me that they regard the UVF, the PUP
:08:46. > :08:51.and the Orange Order in Belfast as one and the same. Which leaders? I
:08:52. > :08:58.am not going to say. But I have been told by Unionist auditions that the
:08:59. > :09:03.UVF, the PUP and the Orange Order are effectively one and the same
:09:04. > :09:07.thing in the city of Belfast. Do you mean leaders of mainstream Unionist
:09:08. > :09:12.parties? Yes. Not minor people on the periphery? No, not minor
:09:13. > :09:18.figures. I take that very seriously indeed. You could challenge me on
:09:19. > :09:22.the basis that I made my own assessment, and I am well capable of
:09:23. > :09:27.making my own assessment through the work that I do, but that assessment
:09:28. > :09:33.that I have made has been confirmed by conversations that I have had
:09:34. > :09:37.about two people believe on the Unionist political leadership side,
:09:38. > :09:41.to be involved in these attacks. So you are telling me these are figures
:09:42. > :09:45.from within the DUP and the Ulster Unionist Party? Mainstream elected
:09:46. > :09:50.Unionist representatives have told me they accept my analysis and in
:09:51. > :09:54.the city of Belfast, the UVF, the PUP and the Orange Order are one and
:09:55. > :09:58.the same. What do they propose to do about it? I believe it needs to be
:09:59. > :10:00.challenged, just as I have challenged the so-called republican
:10:01. > :10:08.dissidents who are trying to drag us back to the past will stop that's
:10:09. > :10:13.come back to Haass. . You see this policy now as one of limitation. But
:10:14. > :10:16.you can't implement something that hasn't been agreed and that
:10:17. > :10:20.Unionists haven't agreed. Where do we go from here? We need to get
:10:21. > :10:23.agreement, and that is what I am trying to do. It is hugely important
:10:24. > :10:29.we recognise that politics is the art of the possible. To make the
:10:30. > :10:35.possible a reality, compromise is a central theme. If you look at the
:10:36. > :10:40.three areas we were talking about, the whole issue of the pass, parades
:10:41. > :10:45.and flags, symbols and emblems. Let's take them one by one. On the
:10:46. > :10:48.issue of the past, the Sinn Fein position was that we wanted to see
:10:49. > :10:55.an international, independent truth commission established. We did not
:10:56. > :10:59.get that. We got something that we could live with, so what did we do?
:11:00. > :11:04.We compromised. On the issue of parades, the Orange Order's demand
:11:05. > :11:10.was that they wanted to see the end of the present Parades Commission. I
:11:11. > :11:14.argued for parading powers to be devolved to our administration in
:11:15. > :11:19.order to try to facilitate the difficulties they were facing. I
:11:20. > :11:27.compromised. On the issue of flags, symbols and emblems, we wanted the
:11:28. > :11:30.national flag and the tricolour in discussions. What was happening to
:11:31. > :11:35.the Union flag npower was being abused all over the place. We wanted
:11:36. > :11:39.that dealt with. And we did not manage to deal with that, but we
:11:40. > :11:44.managed to establish a commission. If there is a mature debate, that
:11:45. > :11:46.can allow us to have a very sensible discussion about Irishness and
:11:47. > :11:51.Britishness and how we should respect each other. So you had a
:11:52. > :11:54.meeting this Tuesday, you have another one between the five party
:11:55. > :11:58.leaders next week. Is that the way to deal with this process? Is Sinn
:11:59. > :12:03.Fein committed to moving forward on that basis for however long it
:12:04. > :12:07.takes? Sinn Fein is totally and absolutely committed to fighting a
:12:08. > :12:12.solution -- finding a solution, but what I not going to do is allow the
:12:13. > :12:16.establishment of a working party down from Peter Robinson, other
:12:17. > :12:21.party leaders and myself, which will repeat the failure of two or three
:12:22. > :12:28.years. Has to be party leaders? I have insisted that if this is to be
:12:29. > :12:33.taken forward, it has to be done by ourselves. Have a agreed? We are all
:12:34. > :12:37.going to meet again next Tuesday. That is the only way forward. It
:12:38. > :12:39.might not be successful, but I am absolutely dedicated and committed
:12:40. > :12:45.to finding a way forward, because to be quite honest, I am fed up, fed up
:12:46. > :12:50.hearing that the public out there who deserve better are disgusted
:12:51. > :12:54.with their politicians who believe it cannot agree on anything. Even
:12:55. > :13:01.though a lot of good work has been done outside of these issues in
:13:02. > :13:03.terms of first, unemployment, direct investment, trying to ensure people
:13:04. > :13:13.get the services they deserve, but all the time, whenever the North has
:13:14. > :13:15.talked about -- is talked about in terms of conflict and violence
:13:16. > :13:21.mystery, we have a duty as politicians to end that, and this is
:13:22. > :13:28.the best opportunity. The Haass document is the best opportunity we
:13:29. > :13:32.will ever have all The Secretary of State Theresa Villiers said she is
:13:33. > :13:37.ready to step in and Chair discussions. Is that an option that
:13:38. > :13:40.you're looking at? Would that help? It is not an option I would favour.
:13:41. > :13:45.We are the political leaders. We have been through the Haass
:13:46. > :13:52.Proposals. I want to put on record my deep appreciation of the
:13:53. > :13:56.contribution made by Richard Haass. They spent six months dealing with
:13:57. > :14:01.these issues, they are experienced diplomats, they are people who knew
:14:02. > :14:05.the ins and outs of the situation here, and I think we should record
:14:06. > :14:11.our thanks and appreciation for what they have done. That is finished
:14:12. > :14:17.now. What I would like to see is we, as party leaders, finally cracking
:14:18. > :14:24.this ourselves. For example, if we do, I can ring Richard Haass, Peter
:14:25. > :14:28.Robinson can ring him and say, come back for a ceremonial handover of
:14:29. > :14:33.the document that you have produced. If you saw his reaction last
:14:34. > :14:39.Thursday when asked if he might come back, he laughed in an enthusiastic
:14:40. > :14:43.way. I do not blame him. No intentions of coming back. I have no
:14:44. > :14:49.intention of asking him back short of us telling him that we have
:14:50. > :14:55.reached agreement and we would like him to come back because of the work
:14:56. > :15:00.he did producing the paper. Witty back in those circumstances? I do
:15:01. > :15:07.not have any doubt about that. -- witty comeback. -- would he come
:15:08. > :15:15.back. Every year we are invited to the
:15:16. > :15:20.White House to meet with the president. They have taken a huge
:15:21. > :15:25.interest. A lot of foreign direct investment comes into the North and
:15:26. > :15:29.we have been hugely successful over the course of the past 23 years, the
:15:30. > :15:37.politicians of any sense of themselves, any respect for our
:15:38. > :15:42.community, we will do this, crack this, in the course of the coming
:15:43. > :15:53.days and weeks, not months. We will leave it there, Martin McGuinness,
:15:54. > :15:57.thank you very much. Since the last council elections in 2011 we've had
:15:58. > :16:01.more than 50 new councillors. That might surprise you, because, of
:16:02. > :16:04.course, not one of the new intake has asked for your vote. Instead of
:16:05. > :16:07.having to fight it out in by-elections, they've simply been
:16:08. > :16:10.put forward by their parties to fill the empty seats of colleagues, in a
:16:11. > :16:11.practice known as co-opting. Our Political Correspondent, Gareth
:16:12. > :16:26.Gordon, has been investigating. There comes a time in every game
:16:27. > :16:31.when a player either needs to come off, or the busting city is time for
:16:32. > :16:36.a change, but in football there is a limit on how many substitutions can
:16:37. > :16:45.be made. But not, it seems, in politics, Northern Ireland style.
:16:46. > :16:49.The co-opting system was designed to allow parties to replace councillors
:16:50. > :16:57.who had to retire through ill-health without an expensive election, but
:16:58. > :17:01.at Mourne council, Sinn Fein has been accused of manipulating the
:17:02. > :17:04.system by getting rid of six councillors in one else will. Most
:17:05. > :17:11.of the councillors were highly spirited and represented areas of
:17:12. > :17:16.South Armagh. The replacements are much younger and relatively unknown.
:17:17. > :17:22.This former Sinn Fein councillor said that it is a move that is
:17:23. > :17:28.without precedent. It is a clever manipulation of the co-opting system
:17:29. > :17:34.because these unknown new councillors now, to the council
:17:35. > :17:37.elections in May. It is not against the law but it is against the spirit
:17:38. > :17:44.of the law, as I understand it. Local councils survive on people
:17:45. > :17:47.willing to work for local people in their areas and it does not
:17:48. > :17:50.automatically mean that a sitting councillor gets a vote and that
:17:51. > :17:59.whole automatically transfer to the new co-opting councillor. Sinn Fein
:18:00. > :18:01.totally rejects that allegation. This is if they begin phase of
:18:02. > :18:08.transition in local government arrangements. I think we have a
:18:09. > :18:12.responsibility to manage that transition in a smooth way, and that
:18:13. > :18:17.is what we have done. We have a talented pool of people coming in.
:18:18. > :18:22.We are losing significant experience and hard work with those councillors
:18:23. > :18:29.who are leaving but they will be there to assist the new councillors
:18:30. > :18:34.as well. The DUP has replaced 26 councillors since the last elections
:18:35. > :18:38.but it is who the party has chosen from the substitutes bench that has
:18:39. > :18:45.led to allegations of nepotism but at least three sitting councillors
:18:46. > :18:50.replaced by their sons, and to buy their wives, leading to this
:18:51. > :18:54.headline in the local paper. In Antrim Council, there was one
:18:55. > :19:00.jarring comment from a rival councillor. We see, not only an
:19:01. > :19:06.Antrim but white across the province, family members coming into
:19:07. > :19:11.these seas. -- right across. How the Ulster Unionist party ever done
:19:12. > :19:14.that? I am not aware of it. I would be on shaky ground if I use this as
:19:15. > :19:19.something that in the Ulster Unionist party, so I am unaware of
:19:20. > :19:25.this happening and it certainly has not happened in South Antrim. The
:19:26. > :19:30.DUP says that all of its co-opting processes are competitive. Sometimes
:19:31. > :19:39.it can be a family member who is the best person, who understands the
:19:40. > :19:42.duties of that local area. We have two councillors replaced by their
:19:43. > :19:49.wives, three by their sons, and another case, a brother-in-law.
:19:50. > :19:54.There should be a ban on people who should be relations question mark
:19:55. > :20:00.you had a situation across the board between this and other replacements,
:20:01. > :20:08.and I think there have been in the region of 30 co-options, and in six
:20:09. > :20:13.of those there has been a degree of relation, but are you going to
:20:14. > :20:19.penalised someone because of who they have married? Is there any
:20:20. > :20:23.alternative to the co-opting system? In Europe they have a system that is
:20:24. > :20:26.not quite the same as ours, they just take the next name off the
:20:27. > :20:31.list. They could use by-elections but they would be relatively un-fare
:20:32. > :20:39.in party distribution and they are expensive, costing ?30,000. This is
:20:40. > :20:42.expedient. It keeps the intent of democracy in the sense of, if you
:20:43. > :20:46.elect a certain number of councillors, your are sure that that
:20:47. > :20:54.balance will be maintained by co-opting. All the proposals have
:20:55. > :20:57.merits and demerits. No matter what happens you will get people saying,
:20:58. > :21:02.that is unfair, or that misrepresents the views of the
:21:03. > :21:16.Is the DUP trying to scupper a new law designed to promote organ
:21:17. > :21:19.donation here? One high-profile campaigner says he's suspicious
:21:20. > :21:22.about the timing of a bill from the MLA Alastair Ross, which will
:21:23. > :21:25.conflict with another bill promoted by his Ulster Unionist counterpart,
:21:26. > :21:29.Jo-Anne Dobson. The Dobson Bill, which is due before the Assembly in
:21:30. > :21:32.months, will work on the basis that people want to donate their organs
:21:33. > :21:34.after death, while the Ross Bill will maintain the current opt-in
:21:35. > :21:38.system. The campaigner Joe Brolly says he believes the new DUP bill is
:21:39. > :21:45.designed to "torpedo" the Dobson Bill. Jo-Anne Dobson and Alastair
:21:46. > :21:49.Ross join me now. Alastair Ross, is your private members bill and
:21:50. > :21:55.attempt to tip Edo Jo-Anne Dobson's? It is a minor amendments
:21:56. > :22:00.to existing legislation. If it was past it would not block Jo-Anne
:22:01. > :22:05.Dobson's bill in any way. Myself and Jo-Anne Dobson both want to see more
:22:06. > :22:14.organs are available for transplant but we disagree on how we get there.
:22:15. > :22:17.We start from the idea that few people ever have to take a decision
:22:18. > :22:22.about it. There are two different ways that we can deal with that.
:22:23. > :22:26.Jo-Anne Dobson effectively wants the SMB to take that decision for
:22:27. > :22:30.people, so every adult is then considered as a willing organ donor.
:22:31. > :22:34.My preference is that decision should be made by the individual
:22:35. > :22:40.about how the organs are donated upon death, and that is very
:22:41. > :22:43.important. That is why I felt it necessary to bring forward the
:22:44. > :22:46.amendment bill to make sure that that informed consent and individual
:22:47. > :22:54.choice is maintained within the system. You support an opt in? Yes.
:22:55. > :22:57.But your colleague, Edwin Bruce, said that an opt out scheme would
:22:58. > :23:02.fully maximise the number of organ donations that we have in Northern
:23:03. > :23:12.Ireland. You are out of step with the senior minister. I don't believe
:23:13. > :23:15.that presumed consent or the opt out system is the magic bullet that some
:23:16. > :23:18.believe that it is. If you look at other countries, it has not worked
:23:19. > :23:22.and it has been counter-productive. I do not want anything that could
:23:23. > :23:28.potentially jeopardise the number of organs available and the amendment
:23:29. > :23:30.I'm offering the Assembly would present a decision that would
:23:31. > :23:34.encourage people to voluntarily sign up for the organ donor register and
:23:35. > :23:41.ensure that there is informed consent. Alastair Ross says you both
:23:42. > :23:47.want the same outcome but want to go about it in a different way. I am
:23:48. > :23:53.disappointed. As a long-time campaigner for organ donation, all
:23:54. > :24:00.the charities involved are behind my bill. I watch the Bill in November
:24:01. > :24:03.2012, and then I wrote to every single MLA last June asking them to
:24:04. > :24:09.come and speak to me as the Bill progresses. Alastair Ross did not
:24:10. > :24:14.come to speak to meet unlikely. I have been meeting with you every
:24:15. > :24:18.month... He did not respond to my direct letter to come to speak to
:24:19. > :24:27.me. Other MLA for Mike Pocock that offer. -- other MLAs took up that
:24:28. > :24:33.offer. We want to get the right Bill. We do not want to confuse the
:24:34. > :24:39.public. I am making a plea to Alistair tonight, work with me. Can
:24:40. > :24:44.I give an example? His party colleague, Lord Morrow has brought
:24:45. > :24:50.forward a bill on human trafficking. This, I would do
:24:51. > :24:56.Northern Ireland are courtesy of knocking his door, speaking to him
:24:57. > :24:59.about my concerns about this, not putting in something that is
:25:00. > :25:04.counter-productive. Why didn't you knock on the door and have a chat
:25:05. > :25:11.before you table John proposal? It is disingenuous to say that. Two
:25:12. > :25:14.years ago we debated this and my position of a presumed consent, I
:25:15. > :25:18.have been meeting with Jo-Anne Dobson over the last number of
:25:19. > :25:23.months and the all-party group. What is your motivation for the way you
:25:24. > :25:29.want to go? I do not think that it is ethically right. For example, the
:25:30. > :25:33.bill would mean that the Assembly has decided that every individual in
:25:34. > :25:36.Northern Ireland has decided that they are willing organ donors. I do
:25:37. > :25:42.not think that is right or appropriate. They have the option to
:25:43. > :25:46.opt out. I do not think that the refusal of someone to opt out is the
:25:47. > :25:55.same as them opting in. You cannot consider the do things the same.
:25:56. > :25:58.That is where the confusion can be. Have it as a soft option is that
:25:59. > :26:03.family consent is still necessary, even in the case of Jo-Anne
:26:04. > :26:08.Dobson's bill. I have spoken to people who have been in the most
:26:09. > :26:11.tragic circumstances, where loved ones have been in a trauma unit in
:26:12. > :26:14.hospital and have not had a conversation about whether or not
:26:15. > :26:19.there husband or wife, mother or father, as they can decision about
:26:20. > :26:24.what they want to happen to their organs. With Jo-Anne Dobson's bill,
:26:25. > :26:26.those people will never have to come to a decision and make their own
:26:27. > :26:33.notion about what happens to their loved ones public. I want to make
:26:34. > :26:36.sure that certainty and clarity is present, giving people an
:26:37. > :26:45.opportunity to make their decision. Alastair Ross's case is that his
:26:46. > :26:48.proposal is clearer, and it deals with any confusion in the minds of
:26:49. > :26:56.anyone who finds themselves in these difficult circumstances. I am
:26:57. > :27:00.clear, I am focused and I know that I have a public and the charities
:27:01. > :27:06.behind me. Everyone is fully behind the soft opt out. Family consent is
:27:07. > :27:11.at the heart of it. This will actually, my bill, will strengthen
:27:12. > :27:16.human rights because, for the first time, if you are against organ
:27:17. > :27:21.donation, you have an opportunity to out, and if you're opposed to it,
:27:22. > :27:28.then your wishes cannot be overridden. Can you to square the
:27:29. > :27:34.circle so that you will be singing of the same song sheet? My door is
:27:35. > :27:39.always open. Come to me and we will discuss it. Do not confuse the
:27:40. > :27:46.public. I am drafting this stage of the bill. This can be incorporated
:27:47. > :27:54.within it. The two biggest drivers of organ donation are public
:27:55. > :27:59.awareness and I must commend Jo-Anne over that. But it is absolutely
:28:00. > :28:04.important that we were bustly debate issues around the legislation. We
:28:05. > :28:07.need to make sure that we have specialist nurses in place in all
:28:08. > :28:12.hospitals, the countries with the largest numbers of organ donations
:28:13. > :28:17.have transplant coordinators in hospitals and that will make the
:28:18. > :28:19.biggest difference. It'll be interesting to see what happens
:28:20. > :28:23.next. Thank you both very for joining us on the programme. Let's
:28:24. > :28:34.hear from tonight's commentators. Back in the hot seat are Professors
:28:35. > :28:36.Deirdre Heenan and Rick Wilford. good to see you back. Let's talk
:28:37. > :28:49.about that Martin McGuinness interview. Rick, what did you make
:28:50. > :28:53.of what he had to say? He he was quite close. The allegation he made
:28:54. > :28:59.about the completion of the UVF PUP and the Orange Order was serious.
:29:00. > :29:02.And he said it four times. He did. He seems to be saying he had it on
:29:03. > :29:09.good authority from within mainstream unionism. I think no
:29:10. > :29:13.doubt that will be denied, but I think the subject of all this, or
:29:14. > :29:21.rather the super text, is leadership. He thinks the mainstream
:29:22. > :29:27.Unionist party should man up, and say, we at the democratically
:29:28. > :29:32.elected leaders, and we must make the decisions. But unionism is wary
:29:33. > :29:36.of being too far ahead of public opinion within their heartlands. The
:29:37. > :29:40.memory of Sunnydale and being so far read and what happened there, is a
:29:41. > :29:46.lesson which has been hard-won by unionism. There will be counter
:29:47. > :29:49.charges, and denials, no doubt. But this does nothing to help be
:29:50. > :29:55.atmosphere, I think, in terms of the second-round thoughts which are due
:29:56. > :29:59.to begin next week. Deirdre. I was struck by how forthrightly was. His
:30:00. > :30:05.demeanour was so noticeable. He said he was angry, he was frustrated, he
:30:06. > :30:11.wasn't hiding it as usual. He was basically saying, I am fed up. He is
:30:12. > :30:15.happy to say he is fed up. He is a man with a clear idea of what he is
:30:16. > :30:20.once and willing to put it on record. He said, I insisted that
:30:21. > :30:24.this must be taken ownership by the leaders. They must push this process
:30:25. > :30:28.forward. You were suggesting, for example, the Secretary of State had
:30:29. > :30:32.offered his services. He said no, this is not the job of government,
:30:33. > :30:36.it is the five parties who must come together and leave this process and
:30:37. > :30:39.show, and I think he is also very aware that in the court of public
:30:40. > :30:42.opinion, they are at a very low level. He noted he was angry that
:30:43. > :30:46.the public were disappointed and dismayed by the politicians, and he
:30:47. > :30:58.is showing he is aware of that and he wants to address it. He is about
:30:59. > :31:02.the arbitrary deadline of St Patrick's Day. I think you mentioned
:31:03. > :31:05.investment, saying you can't go to America expecting sympathy and
:31:06. > :31:08.empathy when people can't agree with each other. There are other places
:31:09. > :31:12.we can invest, and we need to have confidence. There must be a
:31:13. > :31:16.deadline. It can be an open process. We have had this agreement, white,
:31:17. > :31:19.happy Saint Patrick's day agreement, and down the road, the St Patrick's
:31:20. > :31:24.in Saint Georges agreement to macro we would have a full house. Somebody
:31:25. > :31:29.to eat it, why do all our agreements have to work around public holidays?
:31:30. > :31:37.They are all patron saints. It cannot be going on longer, there has
:31:38. > :31:43.to be a deadline. I was interested that he did dismiss bilious' option
:31:44. > :31:46.to actually come and share or co-chair talks. It is interesting
:31:47. > :31:49.because part of her role Secretary of State is to safeguard agreement,
:31:50. > :31:55.so you can imagine is saying, you have a judge and I am to step in.
:31:56. > :31:59.Really they don't want that. They fear she may take that decision, so
:32:00. > :32:03.they are saying the five parties must lead this process, and as you
:32:04. > :32:07.say, we need a clear timeline. Let's move on to the other big news of the
:32:08. > :32:10.week, the Ian Paisley interview. We have seen part one. The second part
:32:11. > :32:15.is to come next Monday. Were you surprised to hear him say among
:32:16. > :32:20.other things, he supported civil rights, he was opposed to
:32:21. > :32:25.gerrymandering, he was unhappy about bloody Sunday? Yes. It would have
:32:26. > :32:28.been truer test of his leadership if he actually said those things at the
:32:29. > :32:32.time and in that context, and the fact of the matter is, went with the
:32:33. > :32:38.flow of some really quite visceral attitudes. The other thing that
:32:39. > :32:42.struck me was, it was a remarkable exercise, I thought, in selective
:32:43. > :32:48.memory and disassociation. At time and again, he said, I may have said
:32:49. > :32:52.such and such, but he seemed to see no link between some of his public
:32:53. > :32:56.statements and his inflammatory language and what then happened on
:32:57. > :33:01.the streets. Extraordinary. Do you think he is attempting to rewrite
:33:02. > :33:04.his place in history? He seems to be worried about his legacy, or else
:33:05. > :33:08.why would he have agreed to this? I think it is interesting with older
:33:09. > :33:12.were 40 hours of interviews. If this is the best we could get out of
:33:13. > :33:18.them, it really doesn't answer many questions. I don't know from
:33:19. > :33:21.watching if he was led by politics, or by religion, but I think it is a
:33:22. > :33:24.case we have to acknowledge that there may be too little, too late,
:33:25. > :33:28.but he is saying that civil rights was right, and that they have the
:33:29. > :33:32.right argument. We need to leave it there. Good to hear from you. Thank
:33:33. > :33:36.you very much. That is if this week. Join me on Sunday for Sunday
:33:37. > :33:42.Politics. From all us, goodbye.