:00:00. > :00:31.Tonight, paying the price for deadlock, failure to agree on
:00:32. > :00:34.welfare reform means up to ?1 billion could be lost from the
:00:35. > :00:39.executive budget over the next five years. What is the cost of
:00:40. > :00:45.agreement? The DUP's Sammy Williams -- Sammy Wilson, and Sinn Fein's
:00:46. > :00:49.Alex Maskey are with me. Power to the people - could opposition to and
:00:50. > :00:53.into as Michael interconnector mean lights out in Northern Ireland?
:00:54. > :00:58.There is no way this countryside should be spoiled with this monster
:00:59. > :01:05.project coming through here. Also on the programme...
:01:06. > :01:13.Visit Belfast says the advert, so why is there no and unholy row
:01:14. > :01:18.brewing in City Hall about inviting one potential big-name visitor.
:01:19. > :01:22.And we are back in Commentators' Corner with views of all of the
:01:23. > :01:26.above, academic Cathy Gormley-Heenan and commentator Newton Emerson. You
:01:27. > :01:31.can also join the debate on Twitter.
:01:32. > :01:37.Good evening. Stop burying your head is in the sand and implement welfare
:01:38. > :01:42.reform or face the financial penalties. That was the start
:01:43. > :01:44.message to our politicians from the Work and Pensions Secretary in
:01:45. > :01:50.November last year. Five months later, the two main part -- parties
:01:51. > :01:56.remain diametrically or post on the issue. The DUP warns we are sitting
:01:57. > :01:59.on a financial time bomb puts or -- which will go off when the Treasury
:02:00. > :02:03.starts to claw back what has been saved here. Sinn Fein says it will
:02:04. > :02:08.not permit what it thinks are Tory cuts. It is a Sager with a
:02:09. > :02:12.convoluted history. The Westminster government has
:02:13. > :02:13.coached welfare reform in high-minded terms.
:02:14. > :02:15.The Westminster government has coached welfare reform in We are
:02:16. > :02:19.aiming to make the benefits system much fairer and more affordable to
:02:20. > :02:24.the bridges poverty, worklessness, and welfare dependency.
:02:25. > :02:29.That did not impress MLAs who thought its use like the bedroom tax
:02:30. > :02:34.were not acceptable. Nevertheless, there was enough
:02:35. > :02:39.agreement for Nelson McCausland to introduce the Bill at Stormont in
:02:40. > :02:43.October 2012. The cracks soon started to show. The British
:02:44. > :02:46.government have promised people here, they have promised ourselves
:02:47. > :02:51.that they will give us the flexibility to meet needs here.
:02:52. > :02:55.They have not done any of that. We have gained key flexibility switch
:02:56. > :02:59.all of the parties agreed on. The Bill was withdrawn in April last
:03:00. > :03:02.year. Westminster is expected to levy
:03:03. > :03:07.millions of pounds of penalties on Stormont.
:03:08. > :03:10.Joining me now are Sammy Wilson and Alex Maskey.
:03:11. > :03:12.Sammy Wilson, first of all, it looks like you have been outmanoeuvred by
:03:13. > :03:17.Sinn Fein. It is the Party standing up for
:03:18. > :03:20.vulnerable people, you just want to increment welfare reform as soon as
:03:21. > :03:22.possible. It is actually making vulnerable people even more
:03:23. > :03:26.vulnerable. We are paying back money to
:03:27. > :03:30.Westminster we should be paying back, ?5 million per month at the
:03:31. > :03:40.moment. The Bill has started to be levied on us. When the adjustments
:03:41. > :03:45.are made, these are end of your adjustments. Secondly, welfare
:03:46. > :03:47.reform would have benefited well over 100,000 people who would have
:03:48. > :03:52.found that their benefits would have gone up. There have been about
:03:53. > :03:57.90,000 people whose benefits would have gone down, but they were
:03:58. > :04:01.protected for the next five years. Of course, we had also gained
:04:02. > :04:06.considerable concessions on, for example, the spare bedroom subsidy,
:04:07. > :04:15.the methods of payments, on rate relief, and on helping people who
:04:16. > :04:17.would have had assessments done on their health where Stormont was
:04:18. > :04:23.going to pay for medical assessments for them. Why has there been no deal
:04:24. > :04:28.so far? I will tell you why, it is very
:04:29. > :04:32.simple. Sinn Fein have made it clear from the very start. First of all
:04:33. > :04:34.they were not happy about this but realised it was inevitable. The
:04:35. > :04:38.asked for certain changes to be made, all of those changes have been
:04:39. > :04:42.granted and they have asked for no more changes, so there is nothing
:04:43. > :04:47.more to negotiate. The big problem is that, in the Republic, Sinn Fein
:04:48. > :04:55.are opposing welfare cuts, and I reckon that the Sinn Fein dog is
:04:56. > :04:58.being held by the tail in Northern Ireland because they are now
:04:59. > :05:02.hostages to what Sinn Fein politicians in the Republic want.
:05:03. > :05:06.The people who are going to suffer are the people of Northern Ireland.
:05:07. > :05:10.When people who should be getting an increase in benefits don't get it,
:05:11. > :05:14.they can blame the internal wranglings of Sinn Fein. When we pay
:05:15. > :05:18.money out of that should be going on schools and hospitals, they can
:05:19. > :05:21.blame the internal wrangling in Sinn Fein. When people currently
:05:22. > :05:25.administering these benefits lose their jobs, they can blame that on
:05:26. > :05:31.Sinn Fein. That is what it is all about. Are you basically saying,
:05:32. > :05:33.just to be clear, it is your understanding that there is a deal
:05:34. > :05:37.on the table, there is an agreement, a package of measures and
:05:38. > :05:41.Sinn Fein has all but signed up to it?
:05:42. > :05:45.I am going further than that. First of all, Sinn Fein accepted
:05:46. > :05:49.that welfare reform was inevitable. Secondly, they asked for certain
:05:50. > :05:55.things to be secured and all of those and more were secured. The
:05:56. > :06:00.essence of the deal is fair and they simply cannot find it in themselves
:06:01. > :06:05.to come to the Assembly and vote for it because of internal Party
:06:06. > :06:11.wrangling. That is interesting to hear, Alex Maskey, is it not?
:06:12. > :06:14.Sammy Wilson is saying you agree welfare reforms are inevitable, you
:06:15. > :06:18.asked for and got concessions, there is a deal on the table but for
:06:19. > :06:23.whatever reason you will not sign up. First of all, Sinn Fein never
:06:24. > :06:28.signed up for anything. We made it very clear from day one
:06:29. > :06:34.we were opposed to welfare cuts, and that applies whether it is in Dublin
:06:35. > :06:38.and -- London. We made that consistently clear, we needed clear
:06:39. > :06:43.through Martin McGuiness and we said it publicly, we said it at the last
:06:44. > :06:49.member full asked Mike of the last meeting. We have a Party across the
:06:50. > :06:57.island of Ireland. We are against is the cuts agenda and that is a
:06:58. > :06:59.consistent Party policy. How come the Sammy Wilson says you have
:07:00. > :07:04.agreed to it? I don't like to go into private
:07:05. > :07:11.discussions, but when I met Sammy's colleague, Nelson McCausland, couple
:07:12. > :07:13.of weeks ago with his adviser, I actually sat out.
:07:14. > :07:17.Sammy had made a point on radio that Sinn Fein had signed up to
:07:18. > :07:23.something, and I pressed him very hard. Stephen Brimstone at that
:07:24. > :07:27.meeting refuted that. I asked him, who was at this so-called meeting?
:07:28. > :07:30.And he said Martin McGuiness. Are you effectively now telling me that
:07:31. > :07:35.you were led to believe by Martin McGuiness that we were signed on for
:07:36. > :07:38.this so-called package? That is completely untrue. I want to review
:07:39. > :07:44.it that. That is a question of integrity for my Party.
:07:45. > :07:48.I understand that but... We never signed on for ideal...
:07:49. > :07:52.You did not sign on, let's not dance on the head of a pin year.
:07:53. > :07:57.Signed on might mean something else but agreed in general terms?
:07:58. > :08:01.What we agreed was we had come to terms with a number of flexibility
:08:02. > :08:04.is that we had got. Primarily around some administrative
:08:05. > :08:08.changes, which are important in their own right. I will also argue
:08:09. > :08:12.that we would not have got here if we had not been arguing from day one
:08:13. > :08:17.to get them. In fairness, all of the parties agreed on a range of things
:08:18. > :08:22.in welfare reform. My argument here is, and I have put this to the DUP,
:08:23. > :08:26.the DUP have said that they are against certain aspects of the
:08:27. > :08:29.Welfare Reform Bill. Tell us what they are and we will join them,
:08:30. > :08:33.because we do not accept this Bill as part of a wider cuts agenda. We
:08:34. > :08:37.do not believe enough has been done by the British government, who
:08:38. > :08:42.acknowledged that conditions your are much worse than anywhere else,
:08:43. > :08:47.including across Britain. -- acknowledged that conditions here.
:08:48. > :08:49.Unfortunately none of the individual Jew named are here tonight to speak
:08:50. > :08:55.for themselves. I only making that point, Mark,
:08:56. > :08:58.because the DUP is in Felling are a Party has said we will go for the
:08:59. > :09:06.deal and I had to squash that because we certainly did not.
:09:07. > :09:09.Sinn Fein have accepted welfare reform is inevitable. They asked for
:09:10. > :09:14.certain things to be obtained. They were unhappy with some of the things
:09:15. > :09:19.we were unhappy with as well. All of those things and more have been
:09:20. > :09:24.delivered, and, that being the case, I think it would be helpful for the
:09:25. > :09:28.debate, that being the case if there are more things I am happy with what
:09:29. > :09:32.we have got. If there are more things which Sin Fein say they need,
:09:33. > :09:38.why has it been that since the conclusion of those negotiations
:09:39. > :09:43.seven months ago we have had not one more thing mentioned by Sinn Fein?
:09:44. > :09:46.That is why I say it is all to do with internal Party wrangling and
:09:47. > :09:52.people will pay for this in their jobs, reduced benefits and in the
:09:53. > :09:56.cuts there will be two services in Northern Ireland.
:09:57. > :10:00.I will go to Alex Maskey on that point in a second, but I wanted to
:10:01. > :10:05.clear this up once and for all. Alex Maskey says that the DUP special
:10:06. > :10:08.advisers said the Deputy First Minister was at a meeting where they
:10:09. > :10:15.signed up to this agreement. Is that your understanding? That is not my
:10:16. > :10:18.understanding. Is that your understanding?
:10:19. > :10:22.Alex Maskey says that is what someone close to the DUP says, is
:10:23. > :10:26.that right to Michael I was not at that meeting...
:10:27. > :10:30.But is that your understanding? Other sources have told us that the
:10:31. > :10:36.Deputy First Minister had agreed on this and then renege on that. That
:10:37. > :10:39.is my understanding but even without being there I can tell you that on
:10:40. > :10:43.the principle of welfare reform Sinn Fein have said they accept it has to
:10:44. > :10:49.happen because we cannot get into a situation where we pay ?250 million
:10:50. > :10:52.per year back to the Treasury and we also find ourselves having to
:10:53. > :10:56.purchase a computer system and put 1500 people out of work.
:10:57. > :11:00.Secondly, Sinn Fein asked for certain things to be done, all of
:11:01. > :11:06.which have been met, so the logical step, Mark, is to say, now you have
:11:07. > :11:10.obtained that, why you impose pain on the people of Northern Ireland by
:11:11. > :11:13.refusing to put the legislation through? What is the answer to
:11:14. > :11:19.that, Alex Maskey? What are you holding out for?
:11:20. > :11:22.We have some change, which is all very welcome. But it doesn't go
:11:23. > :11:27.anywhere near enough, because the bottom line of this, the so-called
:11:28. > :11:32.concessions we have... What is it you want, Alex?
:11:33. > :11:37.First of all, I want to stop the ?450 million coming out per annum
:11:38. > :11:42.from local people's pockets. By giving back ?250 million per year
:11:43. > :11:45.to the government at Westminster? You are telling this programme
:11:46. > :11:50.tonight that you are happy... There is a lot of logic in that!
:11:51. > :11:54.You are telling the audience tonight are happy with the changes we have
:11:55. > :11:58.secured, fair enough. I am telling you that Sinn Fein is
:11:59. > :12:03.not, never were and will not be happy. We do not have any deal to
:12:04. > :12:07.get from you, we have to talk directly to the British government.
:12:08. > :12:11.I would prefer that all the parties at the executive work together to
:12:12. > :12:15.get the necessary changes to make life easier for the people we
:12:16. > :12:21.collectively represent. You have actually conceded... You are dancing
:12:22. > :12:24.around it! What will you talk to the government about?
:12:25. > :12:30.What will you ask them for? They have a cuts agenda, they have
:12:31. > :12:34.an austerity agenda, they will slash minimum ?450 million...
:12:35. > :12:37.But your action is costing more money. Simon Hamilton told us two
:12:38. > :12:43.weeks ago that in five years it will cost ?1 billion. Iain Duncan Smith
:12:44. > :12:46.has been telling people that this will be rolled out within a certain
:12:47. > :12:50.time frame. Even this last week or two he has
:12:51. > :12:55.been told that will not happen, it is impossible, all of the
:12:56. > :12:57.predictions are nonsense, the Office for Budget Responsibility in
:12:58. > :13:01.Westminster, the Public Accounts Committee and other offices have
:13:02. > :13:05.rubbished the attempts to intimate welfare reform. Why would we be
:13:06. > :13:11.headlong into millions of pounds of cuts into our community where it
:13:12. > :13:18.cannot be done in Britain? Why would we impose a failed system...
:13:19. > :13:21.If we had an election may be the public would have been leaving this
:13:22. > :13:25.last year. The elections will come and go. We have an anti-austerity
:13:26. > :13:30.programme north and south of this island, that is consistent, people
:13:31. > :13:35.have to understand that. Why do you want to be a sorry get Tory?
:13:36. > :13:38.Why not stand shoulder to shoulder with Alex Maskey and say to the
:13:39. > :13:43.British government we are not tolerating this? You and I have
:13:44. > :13:49.tried, and we are still finding out what he wants, shoulder to shoulder?
:13:50. > :13:53.To stop ?500 million being taken out of people's pockets in Northern
:13:54. > :13:57.Ireland. First of all, welfare spending will
:13:58. > :14:03.go up by ?500 billion by the end of this Assembly term.
:14:04. > :14:08.-- ?500 million. The increase will not be as great as it would have
:14:09. > :14:17.been had the existing systems debut. -- system speed. -- stayed. If
:14:18. > :14:21.anyone thinks I government at Westminster which is already getting
:14:22. > :14:26.flack for the cuts and of the changes in welfare is going to say
:14:27. > :14:32.that Northern Ireland, where we do not have one vote, will be exempt
:14:33. > :14:36.from this, they are living in cloud cuckoo land. Thirdly, he is saying
:14:37. > :14:41.he will oppose cuts. We have nearly given back all of the money we got
:14:42. > :14:45.in the budget as a result of the inactivity from Sinn Fein. What will
:14:46. > :14:52.swing it for you? When we started discussions
:14:53. > :14:55.recently, I cannot say at all whether we will get any change out
:14:56. > :14:57.of that, but I can tell you that we will be fighting as effectively as
:14:58. > :15:01.we can. I would rather we were doing that
:15:02. > :15:04.with all of the parties together, putting our shoulders to the wheel
:15:05. > :15:10.to stop these multi-million pounds of cuts. In the meantime, the people
:15:11. > :15:13.who would gain from welfare reform, the 112,000 people, are going to
:15:14. > :15:17.lose out. The people who rely on money for
:15:18. > :15:21.education and health, which we are now giving back to Westminster, are
:15:22. > :15:24.going to lose out. The 1500 people who currently
:15:25. > :15:27.administer the welfare system for other parts of the UK are going to
:15:28. > :15:35.lose their jobs. I don't think that is a good deal, Mark. You are happy
:15:36. > :15:38.with the Beagle Bill. No meeting of minds tonight, thank
:15:39. > :15:43.you for joining us tonight. Still to come on The View, is the
:15:44. > :15:45.time right for the Pope to visit Belfast.
:15:46. > :15:48.We will be hearing from a representative who think cities and
:15:49. > :15:54.his Ulster Unionist Party apart who thinks a visit could lead to unrest
:15:55. > :16:01.on the streets. First, could we be facing power cuts and blackouts in
:16:02. > :16:07.the near future? That is the worry if a link is not built within the
:16:08. > :16:14.next few years. The north/south interconneckor will not be ready
:16:15. > :16:21.until 2019. Is a controversial project. People do not want pylons
:16:22. > :16:25.near homes, they want them buried underground instead. Those backing
:16:26. > :16:29.the scheme say it is too expensive and not feasible.
:16:30. > :16:37.Stephen Walker has been investigating.
:16:38. > :16:46.What happens here will affect everyone on the island of Ireland.
:16:47. > :16:53.If the north-south interconneckor is built, it means more --
:16:54. > :16:57.interconnector is built, it means the service will be more reliable.
:16:58. > :17:01.That is only part of the story. There are concerns about where it is
:17:02. > :17:11.being located and worries about the way it is going to be built There is
:17:12. > :17:16.an existing connection, but it has limited capacity. This new scheme,
:17:17. > :17:23.which could cost around ?250 million, links woodland to County
:17:24. > :17:30.Tyrone. This is where the plan is to have the pylons, right in this
:17:31. > :17:38.valley? It is coming down, right past the grey house in the hollow...
:17:39. > :17:43.. Business Businessman John Woods says local life will be disrupted
:17:44. > :17:50.and is against the plans. We know how close the pylons will be to the
:17:51. > :17:54.houses? 150 metres to each house - it is quite unacceptable. If you can
:17:55. > :17:58.look at the beautiful green, clean countryside we have here, there's no
:17:59. > :18:06.way this countryside should be spoilt with this monster project
:18:07. > :18:12.coming here. Others insist if the conneckor goes a-- connecter goes
:18:13. > :18:18.ahead the oh -- conne consider, tor goes ahead the power lines must be
:18:19. > :18:22.placed under ground. Planning Ministers north and south listen to
:18:23. > :18:24.the concerns of people and take a proper investigation and list on the
:18:25. > :18:30.the communities who live along the way. I think if common sense
:18:31. > :18:36.prevails, then the cable should be underground.
:18:37. > :18:41.So, how feasible is it to place the connector under ground? I think the
:18:42. > :18:45.reality is that it is possible to do some undergrounding of this type of
:18:46. > :18:55.cable. Nowhere in the world is there anything like the length of capable
:18:56. > :18:58.talked about for the entire route of the interconnector. The costs
:18:59. > :19:06.increase considerably. They can be up to 10 times the cost of
:19:07. > :19:11.overoverheadlines. -- over head Lines. During the troubles a
:19:12. > :19:19.north-south line were often attacked. Northern Ireland has
:19:20. > :19:26.another electricity link - this inter-connector link links Scotland.
:19:27. > :19:33.It makes a new connector all the more necessary. The timing of this
:19:34. > :19:38.project is critical. Originally the connector was meant to be
:19:39. > :19:41.constructed by 2017. With that looking increasingly unlikely there
:19:42. > :19:48.are fears that Northern Ireland could face power cuts and blackouts.
:19:49. > :19:54.By 2015-2016, we could be facing serious energy and security. Ie, if
:19:55. > :20:00.we don't find a solution between now and then we risk some, albeit
:20:01. > :20:06.extreme circumstances, the lights going off in some places. That
:20:07. > :20:10.concern is shared by Northern Ireland Electricity.
:20:11. > :20:17.That would mean there would be an increasing risk that arrangements
:20:18. > :20:23.would have to be used and that would mean a rota system being used. How
:20:24. > :20:28.would Northern Ireland cope if electricity demand outstrips supply?
:20:29. > :20:35.We actually do need a co-ordinated plan and I think it has to come from
:20:36. > :20:41.Arlene Foster as minister. I know she doesn't have all the money or
:20:42. > :20:47.leave verage. She has to have -- leverage, she has to have the
:20:48. > :20:53.capacity to say. At the moment norp of does not have a system with
:20:54. > :20:58.Northern Ireland or Great Britain. That is how they should work. It is
:20:59. > :21:06.up to the minister to knock some heads together and say make it work
:21:07. > :21:10.quickly. Has the minister got a Plan B. We have the time until 2016 to
:21:11. > :21:14.make sure we have it covered. It is only two years. It is only two
:21:15. > :21:18.years. Therefore we need to get on with it. That is why they went out
:21:19. > :21:25.this month and asked for the additional capacity. How worried are
:21:26. > :21:29.you that if the inter-connector is not built there'll be blackouts? If
:21:30. > :21:33.the market doesn't come one the solution I have always the power to
:21:34. > :21:40.intervene as a Government, myself. So we can intervene as a department
:21:41. > :21:44.and set up generation. If new generators do not come forward it is
:21:45. > :21:48.a serious position to be in? It will be a serious position. We will take
:21:49. > :21:54.that power, if necessary. This debate is far from over.
:21:55. > :21:59.Planning approval for the connector has yet to be granted. There is a
:22:00. > :22:03.review of projects in the south. A public inquiry also remains
:22:04. > :22:11.adjourned. This power-game is going to need extra time.
:22:12. > :22:19.Now, should an invitation be extended to Pope Francis to visit
:22:20. > :22:27.Belfast? That is what the city council will debate after the after
:22:28. > :22:33.the SDLP asked him to include Belfast.
:22:34. > :22:37.One councillor said it could lead to disturbances. Joining me are Pat
:22:38. > :22:40.McCarthy of the SDLP, who proposed the motion and the Ulster Unionist,
:22:41. > :22:45.Jim Rodgers, who raised those concerns. Good tofrng you both.
:22:46. > :22:51.McCarthy -- good evening to you both. Pat McCarthy, why suggest
:22:52. > :22:58.inviting the Pope here now? Last month there was a motion inviting
:22:59. > :23:02.Pope Francis to the Republic. It is an ideal opportunity to invite him
:23:03. > :23:06.north of the border, up to our capital city and show the world that
:23:07. > :23:12.we have progressed and that we can get along together. I think it is a
:23:13. > :23:16.good, positive step. Do you still feel that after the reaction from
:23:17. > :23:21.Jim Rodgers and others today? I don't know about others. Jim's own
:23:22. > :23:27.party does not support his views. They have issued a statement saying
:23:28. > :23:33.they would welcome a visit by Pope Francis to Belfast. There were
:23:34. > :23:38.others on social media not supportive of the idea either. What
:23:39. > :23:44.is your difficulty the suggestion when your own party supports it?
:23:45. > :23:47.Well, I think you have to clarify what my party was saying. It was not
:23:48. > :23:52.saying something different to me. I have no problem with the Pope coming
:23:53. > :23:58.to Belfast, but not in the present climate. We have problems in the
:23:59. > :24:04.city, which are concerning. We have demonstrations. We have protests. We
:24:05. > :24:08.have flag issues. All these need to be addressed. The last thing we need
:24:09. > :24:12.is for the pontiff to come to the capital city of Northern Ireland and
:24:13. > :24:16.to get a hostile reception. That is why I said today and I stand by it,
:24:17. > :24:21.there are other parts of Northern Ireland that he could come to,
:24:22. > :24:27.whether it -- where there would be little or no trouble. If we can move
:24:28. > :24:33.on these difficulties we have, then it is possibility. Presently, in my
:24:34. > :24:38.eyes, it most certainly isn't. My party believes in civil liberty for
:24:39. > :25:15.all, regardless of your religion, colour, class or creed. We have... .
:25:16. > :25:19.If you probe it more deeply with the party you will find what I am saying
:25:20. > :25:24.is correct. It is about getting the right time. It does not say that in
:25:25. > :25:29.the statement. I think that Pat should have consulted with the other
:25:30. > :25:33.political parties in the City Hall. One of his colleagues had a
:25:34. > :25:37.conversation with me and he talked about the likelihood of the Pope
:25:38. > :25:42.coming to Northern Ireland and he mentioned Belfast. My words were,
:25:43. > :25:46."Don't go there at this present moment. Move it somewhere else. If
:25:47. > :25:52.you bring it to Belfast, you are going to heighten tension." I want
:25:53. > :25:56.to see this city moving forward. I want to see everyone treated in a
:25:57. > :26:03.good fashion. I do not want to see trouble on our streets. I personally
:26:04. > :26:06.feel... Pat and I may have our differences, but we work closely
:26:07. > :26:11.together to try and bring about the best of Belfast. We are only a short
:26:12. > :26:16.time away from two elections. On Thursday 22nd May, local Government
:26:17. > :26:21.and European. I firmly believe... He says this has nothing to do with
:26:22. > :26:26.elections. If you look at the SDLP, some of their utterances over the
:26:27. > :26:29.last couple of months, they are trying to out-flank Sinn Fein. They
:26:30. > :26:37.are playing to the gallery to get support on the 22nd May. What about
:26:38. > :26:42.the issue... What about the issue about timing? Three years ago Her
:26:43. > :26:46.Majesty, the Queen, visited the republic. There were people like Jim
:26:47. > :26:50.who threatened all sorts of demonstrations - we don't want her
:26:51. > :26:55.here, we don't want her there. She went ahead and faced them down. It
:26:56. > :26:58.was a total success and encouraged relationships between north and
:26:59. > :27:07.south and between Ireland and Britain. We have a chance to do the
:27:08. > :27:11.same. Jim lives in a never, never, Neverland of his own. People have
:27:12. > :27:17.moved on. What about the people who are concerned about the removal of
:27:18. > :27:23.the Union Flag? We will always have... We will always have people
:27:24. > :27:30.who will say the time will never be right. We have to move on.
:27:31. > :27:33.We have to move on. Why not say to people who might be concerned and
:27:34. > :27:38.who may agree with you, why don't you say to them, look, just if you
:27:39. > :27:41.don't like it, don't go out - don't watch the television, don't read the
:27:42. > :27:48.newspapers because this is a city for everyone. You tell this is a
:27:49. > :27:52.city for everyone. What about the people who want the Pope to come?
:27:53. > :27:57.Pat made a comment about the Queen, I was never opposed to Queen
:27:58. > :28:02.Elizabeth the second... He was saying other people in the south
:28:03. > :28:06.were opposed. He was also saying, I am not part of never, never, never.
:28:07. > :28:14.I reach out to everyone in this community. What about the Pope? Let
:28:15. > :28:19.me put the record straight! 15% of the population of our city are Roman
:28:20. > :28:24.Catholics, to use your terminology, you have turned around and said
:28:25. > :28:30.their spiritual leader should not come to the city. He should go up to
:28:31. > :28:36.the border, where there are more Roman Catholics up there. If the
:28:37. > :28:42.people of our city want to go and see him, let them get on a bus. You
:28:43. > :28:46.have obviously annoyed Pat McCarthy and perhaps a lot of people who...
:28:47. > :28:51.How do you respond to that charge, that you are making Catholics
:28:52. > :29:05.second-class citizens? I am not anti-pope. The present
:29:06. > :29:12.probe -- Pope Francis has been given tremendous leadership.
:29:13. > :29:15.But you do not want him to come to Belfast at the moment? At the
:29:16. > :29:21.present moment, but things can change, provided the people out
:29:22. > :29:24.protesting or stopping the Orange Order getting through to their
:29:25. > :29:29.home, if we can move on then hopefully things can change.
:29:30. > :29:35.Nothing to do with the Orange Order. I am sorry we are of time but I've
:29:36. > :29:38.had -- because I would like to continue the discussion but we have
:29:39. > :29:43.to leave it there, thank you, Pat MacArthur young Jim Rogers.
:29:44. > :29:46.Our commentators Cathy Gormley-Heenan and Newton Emerson
:29:47. > :29:51.have been listening keenly to what has been said in the studio. Let's
:29:52. > :29:54.go back to the main story tonight, welfare reform and that debate
:29:55. > :30:01.between Sammy Wilson and Alex Maskey. What did you make of it,
:30:02. > :30:06.first of all, Cathy Gormley-Heenan? I think everyone is in agreement
:30:07. > :30:09.that the Welfare Reform Bill will eventually be passed in Northern
:30:10. > :30:13.Ireland. I think tonight for a lot of viewers they will struggle to
:30:14. > :30:20.understand the figures being bandied about since last October. We will
:30:21. > :30:26.lose 5 million, 10 million, half a trillion. These things are not
:30:27. > :30:28.helpful for people. It boils down to Will Northern Ireland households be
:30:29. > :30:33.better off or not? Sammy Wilson said that people who would have been
:30:34. > :30:39.worse off will be protected for the next five years. I have an issue
:30:40. > :30:42.with that because often the people whose benefits will be cut the
:30:43. > :30:46.hardest will be those who are the most vulnerable in our society and
:30:47. > :30:53.may not know how to avail themselves of the available money.
:30:54. > :30:58.Newton, do you believe there is a deal on the table? Whether it was
:30:59. > :31:03.signed or not, it was reported in October that a deal had been reached
:31:04. > :31:05.and they were specific on the outline of that.
:31:06. > :31:08.Basically everything would be passed except the bedroom tax which would
:31:09. > :31:12.be deferred until more smaller social housing could be built. That
:31:13. > :31:17.would be covered by the block grant. Sinn Fein again raised this deal in
:31:18. > :31:24.January just after the doctor has talks. It is a very good positioning
:31:25. > :31:28.movement -- movement from both parties. The DUP can elect fiscally
:31:29. > :31:32.responsible and Sinn Fein can look as if it is supporting the
:31:33. > :31:35.vulnerable. It is mutually beneficial?
:31:36. > :31:38.It is a mutually beneficial row for them.
:31:39. > :31:41.This takes them up until April 22 then they have a month to get it
:31:42. > :31:46.through Stormont. Stormont has rushed both welfare rules through
:31:47. > :31:49.before in the last week before summer recess and I would expect the
:31:50. > :31:53.same thing to happen again. Not without further concessions.
:31:54. > :31:58.What further concessions? The point is we get a second bite of
:31:59. > :32:02.the cherry once it is past. The regulatory framework has to be
:32:03. > :32:05.in place for the implementation of the Bill and that is where the
:32:06. > :32:09.parties can perhaps come to agreement on the conditions that can
:32:10. > :32:12.be put in place, the sanctions that can be levied against people and so
:32:13. > :32:17.on. Let's talk about whether the Pope
:32:18. > :32:21.should come to the visit -- should come to visit the city of Belfast if
:32:22. > :32:25.that invitation is extended in the future. What did you make of that
:32:26. > :32:28.debate? That was very depressing.
:32:29. > :32:32.Of course the Pope should come to Belfast, in many ways that is the
:32:33. > :32:37.last great event of the peace process and I thought the Pope going
:32:38. > :32:40.to Dublin was very apt. There may be a few issues around organising it.
:32:41. > :32:46.Because it is such a significant thing it will have to be initiated
:32:47. > :32:49.by something more important than one Party at Belfast City Council. It
:32:50. > :32:54.would have to be discussed at London, the Vatican, the Irish
:32:55. > :32:59.government and Stormont. We are a long way from that. Not really, the
:33:00. > :33:04.Queen is meeting the Pope next month in the Vatican, she could extend the
:33:05. > :33:08.invitation herself if she wanted to. Is this a real disagreement or is it
:33:09. > :33:16.artificial? I think it is artificial. I don't
:33:17. > :33:18.think Jim Rogers's comments about the potential for a hostile
:33:19. > :33:26.reception are necessarily what would happen. The Pope is well regarded by
:33:27. > :33:30.Catholics and non-Catholics alike. We will have to leave it there,
:33:31. > :33:34.folks, thank you very much indeed. I am back with the Sunday Politics at
:33:35. > :33:37.1135 on Sunday, goodbye for now.