:00:00. > :00:26.Tonight: Another proposal on dealing with victims, but is anyone
:00:27. > :00:28.listening? We hear from a frustrated victims' commissioner, a former
:00:29. > :00:33.victims' advocate and the DUP which wants to redefine the V word. Also
:00:34. > :00:43.is momentum building for joint intervention to push things forward?
:00:44. > :00:47.We will hear from London and Dublin. There has been no progress
:00:48. > :00:51.historically in the peace progress at very difficult stages without the
:00:52. > :00:55.active engagement of two governorates. The British Government
:00:56. > :00:59.have been semidetached from the process. We have the latest in our
:01:00. > :01:02.Euro election debates as the Ulster Unionists take on the SDLP. Plus
:01:03. > :01:05.with the Giro d'Italia taking over many of Belfast's streets, the
:01:06. > :01:08.professors are back in the saddle in Commentators' Corner. And you can,
:01:09. > :01:16.of course, join the debate on Twitter. It has been a week in which
:01:17. > :01:20.the past has once again dominated the present. First the arrest of
:01:21. > :01:23.Gerry Adams made world headlines and then it emerged that letters sent to
:01:24. > :01:27.the so-called "on the runs" collectively covered enquiries into
:01:28. > :01:30.almost 300 murders. Shortly we will be discussing why, despite report
:01:31. > :01:35.after report on the past, progress seems impossible to achieve. But
:01:36. > :01:37.first, earlier today the Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness
:01:38. > :01:49.suggested that the Prime Minister is giving the DUP special treatment. I
:01:50. > :01:52.am very critical of the British Government's standard office nurse
:01:53. > :01:58.in relation to this process and their absolute, dismal failure to
:01:59. > :02:03.support the Richard Haass proposals. I have learned over the course of
:02:04. > :02:07.the last week or so that David Cameron, who has never met with Sinn
:02:08. > :02:13.Fein as a political party, even though there have been repeated
:02:14. > :02:21.quests for Gerry Adams and I to meet him as we did with Tony Blair, has
:02:22. > :02:26.been on a number of occasions involved in meetings with the DUP. I
:02:27. > :02:32.doubt if that facility has been accorded to any other party in the
:02:33. > :02:36.Assembly. That clearly amounts to a cosying up by the Conservative Party
:02:37. > :02:44.in advance of next year's general election where they may be prepared
:02:45. > :02:50.to offer some deal to the DUP in return for support in the aftermath
:02:51. > :02:55.of the election. The victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone, is
:02:56. > :03:01.leaving her job, but she said people have to have a pension for people
:03:02. > :03:06.severely injured in the Troubles. Do you think that was a helpful
:03:07. > :03:11.suggestion? Sinn Fein has always been supported for the need for a
:03:12. > :03:16.pension for those who were badly injured. We support that and it is a
:03:17. > :03:25.very important thing to support that, given they suggest the idea
:03:26. > :03:29.comes from the victims themselves. There will be a debate around who is
:03:30. > :03:35.eligible and who is not. If you have a scenario where no matter who that
:03:36. > :03:38.person is, and that person has been injured as a result of the
:03:39. > :03:43.conflict, that goes beyond them and into their families. Those families
:03:44. > :03:47.deserve support. Martin McGuinness speaking earlier to Mark Devenport.
:03:48. > :03:49.With me now is the outgoing Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone, who
:03:50. > :03:52.published a way forward document today, which is she says needs
:03:53. > :03:55.urgent attention by the Executive. It is not new ground, of course.
:03:56. > :03:59.Robin Eames, Denis Bradley and Richard Haass trod this path as well
:04:00. > :04:03.without any of their recommendations being implemented. Denis Bradley is
:04:04. > :04:09.with us and we are also joined by the DUP's Jeffrey Donaldson. Welcome
:04:10. > :04:13.to the programme. Jeffrey Donaldson, has the DUP been getting special
:04:14. > :04:18.access to Downing Street? Are you in bed with the Conservatives as Martin
:04:19. > :04:24.McGuinness alleges? If you look at the record, first of all we are the
:04:25. > :04:28.fourth largest party in parliament and we meet with all of the
:04:29. > :04:33.political parties at Westminster on a regular basis as a Parliamentary
:04:34. > :04:39.party. Last week's meeting with the Prime Minister was on a specific
:04:40. > :04:46.issue relating to Libya and at the request of the victims of
:04:47. > :04:48.issue relating to Libya and at the Libyan regime under Gaddafi
:04:49. > :04:50.issue relating to Libya and at the the IRA with heavy weaponry and many
:04:51. > :04:57.people died and were seriously injured because of that. The
:04:58. > :04:59.Guardian newspaper tomorrow is reporting all eight DUP MPs attended
:05:00. > :05:05.a drinks party at Downing Street reporting all eight DUP MPs attended
:05:06. > :05:13.with their families last Wednesday. Were you there? I do not
:05:14. > :05:16.with their families last Wednesday. Downing Street last Wednesday? Yes,
:05:17. > :05:18.with their families last Wednesday. and that was publicly known. We met
:05:19. > :05:25.the Prime Minister about Libya. Not the Prime Minister about Libya. Not
:05:26. > :05:31.our families were there. A deputy leader and a number of MPs on a
:05:32. > :05:38.delegation met the Prime Minister to discuss Libya. I do not know where
:05:39. > :05:43.this family stuff is coming from. Any other Northern Ireland MPs
:05:44. > :05:47.there? No, this was something that Nigel Dodds asked for in the House
:05:48. > :05:54.of Commons. He asked to meet the Prime Minister on this issue and he
:05:55. > :05:58.agreed and the DUP sent a strong delegation because this is an
:05:59. > :06:04.important issue, it is important to the innocent victims of terrorism. I
:06:05. > :06:10.am now being told it was the Prime Minister's children who were there.
:06:11. > :06:12.Did you see them? I am sure they were present in Downing Street.
:06:13. > :06:18.Did you see them? I am sure they would they be there? They were
:06:19. > :06:18.Did you see them? I am sure they probably in Downing Street because
:06:19. > :06:23.Did you see them? I am sure they they happen to live there and that
:06:24. > :06:30.is where the Prime Minister is resident. Somebody is putting two
:06:31. > :06:35.and two together and getting five. Before we move on, briefly, Martin
:06:36. > :06:36.McGuinness has accused your party leader of being a coward,
:06:37. > :06:42.deliberately ignoring attacks on leader of being a coward,
:06:43. > :06:47.Polish people in east Belfast. Is that true? Let me refute that
:06:48. > :06:50.entirely. The First Minister has spoken out against these racist
:06:51. > :06:51.entirely. The First Minister has attacks, we regard them as hate
:06:52. > :06:56.crimes and those who are attacks, we regard them as hate
:06:57. > :07:02.should be prosecuted. Gavin Robinson, the former Lord Mayor has
:07:03. > :07:06.been very active on the ground in east Belfast. He is not only the
:07:07. > :07:13.former Lord Mayor, he is a special adviser. I have met with legal
:07:14. > :07:17.spokesmen from the Polish community and we are supporting the call for
:07:18. > :07:23.the reinstatement of the Unite against hate campaign because people
:07:24. > :07:27.need to be protected against this hate crime and racism. Whoever is
:07:28. > :07:35.responsible, wherever they come from, they do not speak for us and
:07:36. > :07:39.we condemn these actions. Kathryn Stone, Peter Robinson has seemingly
:07:40. > :07:45.rejected your proposal to give pensions to severely injured people
:07:46. > :07:51.from the Troubles. It looks like you're set up recommendations is not
:07:52. > :07:56.worth the paper it is written on. It is very puzzling and disappointing
:07:57. > :08:00.the First Minister has appeared to make those suggestions. The
:08:01. > :08:04.provision for a pension for those seriously injured in the Troubles
:08:05. > :08:11.appears in the European election manifesto of the DUP. So how those
:08:12. > :08:16.proposals could be rejected is beyond me. We need to think very
:08:17. > :08:22.carefully about what this means. These proposals have come from
:08:23. > :08:27.victims and survivors themselves. We have been working very closely with
:08:28. > :08:31.injured groups. These are people who have been profoundly disabled in
:08:32. > :08:37.some cases and we need to do everything we can to afford them
:08:38. > :08:47.dignity. Are you suggesting the DUP has stolen your pension idea and put
:08:48. > :08:51.it in its manifesto? No, I am not. Borrow it? Perhaps our decisions
:08:52. > :09:02.have informed them to put things in their manifesto. We get again
:09:03. > :09:07.immediately to the victim -- definition of victimhood. I have
:09:08. > :09:10.said consistently in the time of my appointment that the commission for
:09:11. > :09:15.victims and survivors and the Commissioner is here for all victims
:09:16. > :09:20.and we have to implement the definition as it currently stands. I
:09:21. > :09:25.know there are some parties that want to see that definition changed,
:09:26. > :09:31.but at the moment the definition is as it is. We have to be there for
:09:32. > :09:40.all victims of the Troubles. Given the fact the First Minister and the
:09:41. > :09:44.Deputy First Minister was pretty negative, he said they were not
:09:45. > :09:49.fully thought through, do you believe they have got the legs to go
:09:50. > :09:54.anywhere at this stage or will they sit on the shelf as other previous
:09:55. > :10:00.reports? The proposal for the pensions specifically was something
:10:01. > :10:03.we were asked last year by the first and Deputy First Minister to work on
:10:04. > :10:09.and work on some more detailed proposals. We hope to have those
:10:10. > :10:14.specific detailed proposals to them by mid-June. It seems to me it would
:10:15. > :10:19.be extraordinary for the commission are not to speak out at a time when
:10:20. > :10:24.dealing with the past has come to the fore for so many reasons in the
:10:25. > :10:29.past week. This is a group of people who have sacrificed most and
:10:30. > :10:35.suffered most and deserve every attention from our politicians, from
:10:36. > :10:39.our Government and society. Denis Bradley, political outrage over
:10:40. > :10:47.money derailed your initiative and it is still sitting on the shelf,
:10:48. > :10:50.much to your frustration. Then we had the Richard Haass proposals and
:10:51. > :10:56.Kathryn Stone's proposals, but there does not seem a huge amount of
:10:57. > :11:01.momentum around to deal with this issue. There is momentum in the
:11:02. > :11:06.sense it is happening every day of the week. There is not momentum
:11:07. > :11:11.politically. I do not understand where the British Government are.
:11:12. > :11:17.Kathryn Stone's report is a very good report and it is the first time
:11:18. > :11:24.that victims from across the divide have spoken. That has not been
:11:25. > :11:28.achieved before. I thought the remarks today were disgusting and
:11:29. > :11:33.disgraceful. He patronised and insulted you. And that is not good
:11:34. > :11:37.enough for a First Minister to do that type of thing. Secondly, this
:11:38. > :11:44.is all about the definition of victims. Jeffrey try to bring this
:11:45. > :11:48.to Parliament six years ago. This definition was not made up by me or
:11:49. > :11:52.Katherine or the Northern Ireland Assembly. It was made up by the
:11:53. > :11:58.British Government. You are not going anywhere with this. The people
:11:59. > :12:05.suffering either 300 or 400 people in need of a pension. People went
:12:06. > :12:10.around the world with Geoffrey Robinson -- Peter Robinson and took
:12:11. > :12:17.a salary at the end of the week. These people do not get a pension.
:12:18. > :12:23.You are not allowing the victims or the Commissioner or this society to
:12:24. > :12:28.make that compromise that allows 400 people, most of whom are from your
:12:29. > :12:34.own community. What needs to be done? We need to implement those
:12:35. > :12:40.proposals. No matter how difficult they are? Of course, that is what
:12:41. > :12:47.politics is about. Peter Robinson says he will not put his hand to
:12:48. > :12:51.anything that involves people who perpetuated things in Northern
:12:52. > :12:56.Ireland. There are people who support that position. The
:12:57. > :13:00.definition we all work to is actually defined by the British
:13:01. > :13:05.Government and by nobody else and it is not going to change no matter
:13:06. > :13:13.what Geoffrey is saying. It is not going to happen. Actually you have
:13:14. > :13:16.to live with that reality. And I say this.
:13:17. > :13:21.to live with that reality. And I say compromises and they take their
:13:22. > :13:25.salaries. Those 400 people if you met them and lived with them for a
:13:26. > :13:32.week, I do not think this would be happening. It is time you stopped it
:13:33. > :13:38.and it is time your party stopped it and anyone else who stands in the
:13:39. > :13:43.way of it. The last two people who proposed it were from America, how
:13:44. > :13:49.many more people do you have to actually bring this to you on a
:13:50. > :13:54.plate and say, this cannot go on. First of all I do not want to
:13:55. > :13:58.patronise Katherine, I want to thank sincerely for the work she has done
:13:59. > :14:02.as Victims' Commissioner. I have spoken to many victims from across
:14:03. > :14:09.the community over the last two years who have been very impressed
:14:10. > :14:15.by what Katherine has done. The charge is that your party leader,
:14:16. > :14:20.his remarks were disgusting, disgraceful and insulting. I have
:14:21. > :14:24.read the statement Peter made and I do not accept that description. He
:14:25. > :14:31.is reflecting a concern that is held in the community. When Dennis and
:14:32. > :14:35.Lord Eyam is brought forward their report it was not just politicians
:14:36. > :14:42.of a payment being made to people, of a payment being made to people,
:14:43. > :14:44.well, to the families of the dead wood included people on both sides
:14:45. > :14:56.They are two who had committed horrendous crimes.
:14:57. > :15:00.respect. The political compromise was that people had to stop killing.
:15:01. > :15:06.They had to put away their arms and they had to accept the rule of law.
:15:07. > :15:10.In respect of victims, and you know, I engage with victims from all sides
:15:11. > :15:12.of the community. I have heard the views and there are different views.
:15:13. > :15:16.There are people who would views and there are different views.
:15:17. > :15:22.view, that as Catherine has articulated... And the British
:15:23. > :15:29.Government. And some elements... That is in statute!
:15:30. > :15:35.It is not... You have been trying to change it for six years. Is it in
:15:36. > :15:42.It is not... You have been trying to any manifesto? In any British party?
:15:43. > :15:49.You are fooling these victims. I do support the concept of a pension.
:15:50. > :15:59.Let me say that clearly. Only for certain people.. As Catherine said,
:16:00. > :16:05.the First Minister and Deputy First Minister asked her to undertake work
:16:06. > :16:09.on this project. We have been pursuing this for some time. She has
:16:10. > :16:17.also made the point that the law at the moment does actually prohibit
:16:18. > :16:20.people who have a criminal conviction, including compensation.
:16:21. > :16:25.I think we need to look at f there is going to be compensation and a
:16:26. > :16:29.pension for those who have serious injury, that we should ensure those
:16:30. > :16:34.who are responsible for those crimes do not benefit. In a sentence, what
:16:35. > :16:38.do you say to the injured UDR man who is being denied a payout and a
:16:39. > :16:43.pension now, because you will not allow that suggestion to go forward
:16:44. > :16:46.in case former IRA men are entitled to the same thing. That is what is
:16:47. > :16:50.happening. That is exactly what is happening. He would be saying to me,
:16:51. > :16:57.please don't equate me with a member of the IRA.
:16:58. > :17:00.Widows of RUC people came to us and said, we could be doing with a
:17:01. > :17:05.pension, we were treated horrendously. With respect, I have
:17:06. > :17:11.met many of the widows and many of the UDR soldiers. They are clear
:17:12. > :17:17.they do not want their loved ones... The state of this community and you
:17:18. > :17:21.need to realise that people want you to move forward. We need to leave it
:17:22. > :17:27.there. There are people who do not want their loved ones equated with
:17:28. > :17:32.terrorists. That is the reality. We have to leave it there. No meeting
:17:33. > :17:37.of minds, as perhaps we expected. Thank you very much for joining us.
:17:38. > :17:41.Martin McGuinness's concerns over British Government motives come as
:17:42. > :17:47.some poll tig tigss in the repub -- politicians in the republic call on
:17:48. > :17:50.politicians to get engaged with the political process here. Our
:17:51. > :17:53.correspondent has been investigating.
:17:54. > :18:03.It is hard to know where the border ends and begins. The British Army
:18:04. > :18:09.watch towers that once dominated and of littered the landscape are gone.
:18:10. > :18:15.So too the checkpoints, replaced by a mother way.
:18:16. > :18:18.-- motorway. The events have caused many to wonder whether the political
:18:19. > :18:23.process is as straight and as solid as the M1. With the process
:18:24. > :18:27.apparently more fragile than some believed, questions are now being
:18:28. > :18:34.asked about the role of the two Governments, the co-guarantors of
:18:35. > :18:38.the 1998 Good Friday agreement. There's no indication of a return to
:18:39. > :18:42.violence. There's no indication really of political progress. There
:18:43. > :18:47.hasn't been really for some months now. We have a thing where the
:18:48. > :18:53.politics is not working. It will not fail. It will not take us back to
:18:54. > :19:00.the bad old days of the troubles. There's no momentum there. What
:19:01. > :19:05.you've had is things looic the Adams's arrest has increased
:19:06. > :19:10.tensions. It was not just to be about the absence of violence,
:19:11. > :19:14.welcome though that is. London and Dublin appeared, at least
:19:15. > :19:20.until recently, to be of the view that the era of their hand holding
:19:21. > :19:25.of political parties was over. A former Fianna Fail Cabinet member is
:19:26. > :19:30.critical of both Governments and has suggestions about where more could
:19:31. > :19:35.have been done. You take the area of moving on, the all-Ireland body,
:19:36. > :19:39.where there should be more come competencies involved in the area of
:19:40. > :19:43.north/south bodies. Take a relatively small project, but a
:19:44. > :19:47.project which would be a profound significance was the construction of
:19:48. > :19:50.the narrow water bridge. That has support from north and south. It had
:19:51. > :19:55.support from all political interests. That has gone by the way
:19:56. > :19:59.side for the sake of a very small expenditure in the context of
:20:00. > :20:02.Government. At a time when many talk of a golden age in Anglo-Irish
:20:03. > :20:07.relation, the situation on the ground in Northern Ireland, so long
:20:08. > :20:14.a divisive issue between Dublin and London is far from guilded. There
:20:15. > :20:18.appears to be Irish frustration with British decisions, believing more
:20:19. > :20:22.support should have been given to the proposals on the past, parades
:20:23. > :20:27.and flags. Then there was last week's decision not to investigate
:20:28. > :20:34.the 1971 killings by British soldiers and the IRA's bombing seven
:20:35. > :20:36.years later. The British and Irish Governments are guarantors to the
:20:37. > :20:40.Good Friday agreement. The Irish Government has stepped up to the
:20:41. > :20:43.role in terms of its function. My own personal view is the British
:20:44. > :20:47.Government have been semi detached from the process. I believe they
:20:48. > :20:51.could have done more. The Secretary of State was unavailable for
:20:52. > :20:56.interview. In a statement, she said she stands ready to take a more
:20:57. > :21:00.proactive role if that is the clear desire of all the parties T Labour
:21:01. > :21:05.opposition believes it is ultimately up to local politicians to reach
:21:06. > :21:09.agreement. Experience shows that only happens when London and Dublin
:21:10. > :21:15.are involved. They should not be in the driving seat. Northern Ireland
:21:16. > :21:18.has devolved power. It is very, very important that political leaders
:21:19. > :21:22.step up to the plate and show leadership. There's been no progress
:21:23. > :21:26.historically in the peace process at very difficult stages, without the
:21:27. > :21:33.active engagement of the two Governments working together as one.
:21:34. > :21:37.I think that is absolutely crucial. With Richard Hass due in Government
:21:38. > :21:41.later this month, the two Governments may have to take a
:21:42. > :21:45.deeper interest in Northern Ireland. London and Dublin may not want to be
:21:46. > :21:49.in the driving seat, believing that is the role of parties. Many believe
:21:50. > :21:52.it is up to them to keep the foot on the gas and inevitably that might
:21:53. > :22:06.mean more time on the road for both. Now, we are two weeks away from
:22:07. > :22:11.polling day in the local Government and European elections. Tonight,
:22:12. > :22:16.we'll hear from our second pair of leading candidates. With me is Jim
:22:17. > :22:21.Nicholson, who has been an MEP since 1989 and the SDLP's Alex Attwood.
:22:22. > :22:26.Jim Nicholson, your party leader says you are an exceptionally
:22:27. > :22:32.influential member of the European Parliament. Are you really? I hope
:22:33. > :22:37.so. I have worked hard in getting there over all this time. The time I
:22:38. > :22:41.have been there I have certainly always described myself as a
:22:42. > :22:44.Euro-realist and one who works hard for Northern Ireland and to achieve
:22:45. > :22:49.for Northern Ireland. That is what I have done during that time.
:22:50. > :22:54.You know, if you look back, I have served as a delegation chairman and
:22:55. > :22:59.the prestigious top chair of the delegation with the United States. I
:23:00. > :23:02.have also been a member of the Parliament. I have been involved in
:23:03. > :23:06.many other aspects of the Parliament. Some people do not think
:23:07. > :23:11.we don't see too much of you from one election to the next? You know,
:23:12. > :23:15.Mark, maybe that is the responsibility of the media in
:23:16. > :23:18.Northern Ireland who don't want to seem to actually interview people
:23:19. > :23:22.who work in Europe. One of the difficulties we have is the jobs in
:23:23. > :23:28.Brussels or Strasbourg and that is where we have to do our work. And it
:23:29. > :23:31.is not easy to be available here as you will rightly know. So,
:23:32. > :23:35.is not easy to be available here as see us, but
:23:36. > :23:39.is not easy to be available here as communicate with the
:23:40. > :23:42.is not easy to be available here as That is what we've tried to do. If
:23:43. > :23:49.you talk to a lot of people, in Northern Ireland, one party in the
:23:50. > :23:52.United Kingdom, where people know where who their -- know who their
:23:53. > :23:56.MEP is. You have talked about where who their -- know who their
:23:57. > :23:58.claiming back the seat in Europe, as you put it. It is virtually
:23:59. > :24:03.claiming back the seat in Europe, as impossible for you to do that, isn't
:24:04. > :24:07.it? That is not what the Belfast Telegraph said last week, when it
:24:08. > :24:11.said I was knocking on the door of winning the third seat in the
:24:12. > :24:17.European elections. That is not good though - you have to go through the
:24:18. > :24:22.door. It will only take 12 votes for the SDLP in every ballot-box in
:24:23. > :24:26.Northern Ireland for the SDLP to win the seat. The poll in the Telegraph
:24:27. > :24:30.said 1,000 votes. So we are gaining. We are going to catch up and we're
:24:31. > :24:34.going to win. This is much more important than the importance of the
:24:35. > :24:39.European election. As we have seen, over the last number of weeks in
:24:40. > :24:45.particular, even tonight, people are fed up with the stagnation and they
:24:46. > :24:47.are fed one the stalemates. There is a gathering now across Northern
:24:48. > :24:52.Ireland of people who are saying that we are going to move away from
:24:53. > :24:57.that. We are going to move towards a positive, bold, daring, strong
:24:58. > :25:01.politics, led by somebody, like myself and others who demonstrate in
:25:02. > :25:04.Government that we are bold, decisive, that we got things done.
:25:05. > :25:08.That is what is needed in our politics now. Given what we have
:25:09. > :25:12.seen tonight and over recent weeks in particular. If there is a
:25:13. > :25:16.referendum on the UK's membership on the EU in the future, where does
:25:17. > :25:19.that leave you? We will see if there is a referendum. There will be in
:25:20. > :25:25.2017. That is what the Prime Minister says. If David Cameron is
:25:26. > :25:31.re-elected as Prime Minister, let's see there is a referendum. If there
:25:32. > :25:37.is one in 2016, 2018, we will say to people, vote to stay in Europe. Why?
:25:38. > :25:43.Because if we were to withdraw, it will be our small businesses, our
:25:44. > :25:47.exports, it will be our farmers and citizens and community who will lose
:25:48. > :25:51.out more than any other parts of these islands. One of the reasons
:25:52. > :25:54.why people are gathering to vote positive and for change in this
:25:55. > :26:00.election is because they want to send out the message that Northern
:26:01. > :26:08.Ireland has to be part of the European Union. As we reform it, we
:26:09. > :26:12.do not withdraw from it. Renew, referendum. It means we have a
:26:13. > :26:18.review of where the United Kingdom stand within the European Union.
:26:19. > :26:23.And then, re renegotiation between the UK and the rest of Europe and a
:26:24. > :26:27.referendum. Why do you need a referendum if you renegotiate
:26:28. > :26:33.properly? In the United Kingdom we've had the situation of being are
:26:34. > :26:38.we in or are we out? We have to make up our... We're in. If you listen to
:26:39. > :26:42.a lot of the media in the UK, they are saying that a lot of people on
:26:43. > :26:47.the mainland United Kingdom would actually vote to go out. Let's
:26:48. > :26:55.collar fi the situation. Oi - clarify the situation. I would like
:26:56. > :26:59.to see them being leaders in Europe. That is the challenge we face here
:27:00. > :27:03.in Northern Ireland. If we left, you are interested in the farming
:27:04. > :27:07.community and of many people say you draw a lot of support from people in
:27:08. > :27:13.the farming community. If we left the EU, where would the money come
:27:14. > :27:20.from to replace the single farm supply meant. ? -- supplement? It is
:27:21. > :27:23.a lot of money. I am saying I do not want the United Kingdom to jump off
:27:24. > :27:28.a cliff as far as leaving the European Union is concerned. Who
:27:29. > :27:32.else is going to... Let's have an assessment as to where we are, and
:27:33. > :27:37.what would happen if we left the European Union. What would our
:27:38. > :27:42.position be here? We are part of the UK that is a land front year from
:27:43. > :27:47.the sterling zone, with the eurozone. How would that affect our
:27:48. > :27:52.borders? Let's assess. Let's see where we are and then let's see what
:27:53. > :27:56.the cost would be to our farmer, our business, our people who are looking
:27:57. > :27:59.for employment and would the major people come in here and bring the
:28:00. > :28:03.jobs if we are outside the European Union?
:28:04. > :28:07.What about the referendum? We would worry about that when we get the
:28:08. > :28:14.assessment. You say you want a referendum. Yes, to collar fi the
:28:15. > :28:22.air. It is risky? It may be. The United Kingdom requires a referendum
:28:23. > :28:27.to clarify the situation within the European... We are to the tune of
:28:28. > :28:33.several billion pounds a year. In fact, it costs us money to be in the
:28:34. > :28:36.EU. Sitting on the fence is not a strategy for dealing any of our
:28:37. > :28:40.difficulties in Northern Ireland. And Jim has outlined this evening
:28:41. > :28:45.that he's sitting on the fence about whether we should be in or out of
:28:46. > :28:49.Europe. What should happen if we were out of Europe to those who
:28:50. > :28:53.export from Northern Ireland, when 55% of exports go into the European
:28:54. > :28:58.Union? What would happen to thousands and thousands of our
:28:59. > :29:02.farmers who get money from Europe, rightly so, in order to live on the
:29:03. > :29:08.land and produce of the good food that we eat and the good food that
:29:09. > :29:14.we can export as part of a growing a gri foods strategy? It is, in my
:29:15. > :29:17.view, folly for our people to suddenly have leadership that says
:29:18. > :29:22.when it comes to Europe, when it comes to the future of our country,
:29:23. > :29:26.when it comes to the character of Government you sit on the fence.
:29:27. > :29:30.That is not a bold, proper approach and I think it's very worrying for
:29:31. > :29:34.people to hear that this evening. I don't think it is worrying at all. I
:29:35. > :29:39.think what we have to review is the money we put into Europe - the
:29:40. > :29:44.sizable amount and how much we get out. Are we getting value for money
:29:45. > :29:49.for that money we're putting in? Let's cut out waste in Europe - like
:29:50. > :29:54.the travelling circus to Strasbourg. Let's take care of all of that.
:29:55. > :29:56.I want to ask you about your realistic prospects before we close
:29:57. > :30:02.this discussion. Some comment taters say your seat --
:30:03. > :30:05.commentators say your seat could be vulnerable if there is a Sinn Fein
:30:06. > :30:08.surge with transfers to the SDLP - that has to be a serious worry to
:30:09. > :30:29.you? The Unionist vote has been shredding
:30:30. > :30:38.and shredding. I have been in politics for a long time. Would they
:30:39. > :30:42.transferred to you? I am asking people to vote Jim Nicholson number
:30:43. > :30:47.one and then vote to other candidate of your choice. A leading member of
:30:48. > :30:52.Sinn Fein said to me that there was not a seat for you because they said
:30:53. > :30:58.if they thought there was a second seat, they would be running two
:30:59. > :31:03.candidates. Peter Robinson keeps saying stop the SDLP winning the
:31:04. > :31:09.seat because there are two seat, but on the other hand Sinn Fein do not
:31:10. > :31:13.want the SDLP to win. The character of their politics is threatened by a
:31:14. > :31:18.party that is for strength in Europe, it is against the stagnation
:31:19. > :31:22.of stalemate, that has the right values to bring this society
:31:23. > :31:25.forward. That is why last week an opinion poll in the Telegraph put as
:31:26. > :31:29.1000 votes short of opinion poll in the Telegraph put as
:31:30. > :31:35.European seat. That is how good it is for the SDLP. This time in two
:31:36. > :31:39.weeks people will make their decision and we will talk about it
:31:40. > :31:42.in the aftermath. Let's hear the thoughts of tonight's commentators
:31:43. > :31:45.on what we have been discussing. The professors are with me again, Deidre
:31:46. > :31:48.Heenan and Rick Wilford. Let's talk about victims first of all. What
:31:49. > :31:58.does the publication of the Commissioner's strategy add to the
:31:59. > :32:09.debate? It clouds the debate even more. This is a third, relatively
:32:10. > :32:13.recent report on this issue and it illustrates in the discussion that
:32:14. > :32:19.there is very little in the way of common ground.
:32:20. > :32:22.there is very little in the way of thinking, what they have got in mind
:32:23. > :32:25.is a criminal thinking, what they have got in mind
:32:26. > :32:34.scheme which was revised in March this year and that renders the
:32:35. > :32:40.described criminals as in eligible for compensation. My suspicion is
:32:41. > :32:46.using that as a precedent to put forward their proposals in that any
:32:47. > :32:53.assailant would not be eligible forward their proposals in that any
:32:54. > :33:02.a pension. That is a rough equivalent. Sinn Fein wants to
:33:03. > :33:07.extend it to those who were injured, or who died or who were responsible
:33:08. > :33:13.for political violence. If that is the case, it will be controversial.
:33:14. > :33:18.The whole area is controversial. I agree, they have not clarified
:33:19. > :33:22.anything and we are still in the very fundamental debate about what
:33:23. > :33:27.constitutes a victim and how do we decide what policy is appropriate,
:33:28. > :33:33.what services are appropriate until we decide what we mean when we say
:33:34. > :33:37.victim. Do we have an inclusive definition or an exclusive
:33:38. > :33:41.definition. Those are the debates we have not had. Richard Haass said
:33:42. > :33:47.there was a consensus and there was an issue that would not go away. We
:33:48. > :33:54.need a victim centred policy, not a victim vetoed policy. People think
:33:55. > :33:59.victims are being used as political footballs and people are not
:34:00. > :34:04.concerned with victims, they just want to make political points. Where
:34:05. > :34:10.does this leave the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister? They
:34:11. > :34:15.were showing an comfortable body language. It reminded me of the
:34:16. > :34:20.couple who were estranged, but they decided to stay together because of
:34:21. > :34:25.the children. They sleep in different beds, they work in
:34:26. > :34:30.different rooms, it is an awkward relationship. And when you come for
:34:31. > :34:39.dinner they put on a show. We need to leave it there, time has beaten
:34:40. > :34:41.us. That is it for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11:30am on
:34:42. > :35:02.BBC One. Goodbye. Ulster's last game against Munster
:35:03. > :35:04.in January Now with the Ulstermen's top four
:35:05. > :35:10.place secure, it's a chance to impress
:35:11. > :35:13.before the Pro12 play offs. Ulster playing some
:35:14. > :35:17.enterprising rugby.