:00:00. > :00:37.The police did stand-by when people were putting flags up and I do not
:00:38. > :00:39.want to see that again because the police have brought themselves into
:00:40. > :00:43.disrepute. But this evening, the police tell
:00:44. > :00:46.The View they're changing their Also tonight -
:00:47. > :00:49.it's been years in the making, and tonight we get an exclusive
:00:50. > :00:52.first look at the Executive's draft Plus, crying foul on the political
:00:53. > :00:56.game - Alex Kane and Paul McFadden are monitoring developments
:00:57. > :00:57.in Commentators' Corner. And you can, of course,
:00:58. > :01:00.join the debate on Twitter - Flags, and what to do about them,
:01:01. > :01:08.is a problem which our politicians But now, in an apparent change
:01:09. > :01:13.of policy, the PSNI has told The View it will in future treat
:01:14. > :01:16.the erection of loyalist flags in one mixed area of south Belfast
:01:17. > :01:24.as a breach of the peace. We'll have political reaction to
:01:25. > :01:26.that move in just a moment, but first this report from
:01:27. > :01:55.Gareth Gordon... Love them, load them, flags are hard
:01:56. > :01:58.to ignore. 4000 flying here in July alone, just along main roads.
:01:59. > :02:03.to ignore. 4000 flying here in July alone, just This is one of self
:02:04. > :02:07.Belfast's main arterial routes. It is no longer a Unionist stronghold
:02:08. > :02:28.but you would never know it from these pictures. It has changed but
:02:29. > :02:39.the flags tell another story. 57% of people who live here are Catholic.
:02:40. > :02:45.27% are Protestants. 31% call themselves British. 36% are Irish
:02:46. > :02:51.and 29% are Northern Irish. Clearly, this is a loyalist area. It does not
:02:52. > :03:05.matter too much because there is no hassle. It is time for and the
:03:06. > :03:15.bands, a very enjoyable day. I prefer them not to be any. It brings
:03:16. > :03:20.the area down. The flags appeared on a Thursday night during the election
:03:21. > :03:26.campaign, under the noses of the police who are calling for Elektra
:03:27. > :03:29.presented this. Duncan Morrow is a former head of the community
:03:30. > :03:36.relations Council who stood for Alliance in the elections. I rang
:03:37. > :03:41.people up and ask them what they were doing, and they were present
:03:42. > :03:48.when the flags were put up. Part of the issue for us is, I suppose, are
:03:49. > :03:53.people safe putting them up or taking them down? Is there a threat
:03:54. > :04:03.that makes it look like the rule of law is not operating? Sinn Fein also
:04:04. > :04:07.disgust the issue. Police officers did stand-by when flags were going
:04:08. > :04:10.up and I do not want to see them do that. They have brought themselves
:04:11. > :04:16.into disrepute with their behaviour around the flag. After discussing
:04:17. > :04:25.the issue, we have a better understanding of what needs to
:04:26. > :04:31.happen. What needs to happen? If someone is putting a flag up, that
:04:32. > :04:36.will be seen as a breach of the peace because that could lead to
:04:37. > :04:40.disorder. The police have told us they have had a rethink. In a
:04:41. > :04:43.statement released to this programme they say further enquiries back the
:04:44. > :05:09.assessment that tensions are... This local DUP representatives said
:05:10. > :05:14.the police have enough to do without worrying about flags. We have
:05:15. > :05:18.experienced a rise in crime over the course of the year and I believe the
:05:19. > :05:22.PSNI has better things to be doing with its time than sending officers
:05:23. > :05:30.shimmying up lamp posts to remove flags. If the representative of
:05:31. > :05:33.South Belfast believe that is the best use of their time, I think he
:05:34. > :05:41.should go in look what the priorities are. The actual flags
:05:42. > :05:46.themselves are getting bigger. These have gone up all around Belfast.
:05:47. > :05:56.This academic was funded by the executive to survey the growing
:05:57. > :06:02.forest of flags. We have draw. His collection is around 120. At one
:06:03. > :06:07.level, you have to have something. If you mess around with this stuff,
:06:08. > :06:13.you take some down and twice as many will go up. I have some sympathy. On
:06:14. > :06:18.the other hand, the use of the market territory affects
:06:19. > :06:25.economically these places. We have done survey work and that shows it
:06:26. > :06:30.economically affects places. We do have a very real problem, and
:06:31. > :06:35.sometimes that slips into real intimidation, and it is the
:06:36. > :06:40.police's job to look into that. It appears they are listening. In this
:06:41. > :06:51.part of self Belfast at least. -- South L4. -- Belfast.
:06:52. > :06:53.With me now to discuss tonight's development
:06:54. > :06:56.and the forthcoming talks on flags, parades and the past are
:06:57. > :06:59.Gerry Kelly from Sinn Fein, Chris Lyttle from the Alliance Party, and
:07:00. > :07:04.from our Foyle studio we're joined by Gregory Campbell from the DUP.
:07:05. > :07:13.How significant an apparent change of policy is this by the police?
:07:14. > :07:24.It is a step forward, I think, by the police. In North fast and other
:07:25. > :07:30.places, police officers were saying that the policy was that they would
:07:31. > :07:40.not remove flags. They clear indication now is that where they
:07:41. > :07:46.are in these areas... During the talks, the Unionists would not budge
:07:47. > :07:50.at all on the flags and one suggestion was, let's start off
:07:51. > :07:57.small, what about hospitals, places of worship and schools being no flag
:07:58. > :08:04.areas? Just to start the process of? They would not budge on that.
:08:05. > :08:10.There have been a few statements issued, and we will hear from
:08:11. > :08:16.Gregory Cambell, Unionist feel Sinn Fein will attempt to exploit this
:08:17. > :08:24.new policy on behalf of the PSNI in other areas # Parliamentary 's were
:08:25. > :08:31.exploiting it all over the place. I think we have to go at it easy. They
:08:32. > :08:38.are not arguing about flags which are coming down in areas where they
:08:39. > :08:49.are most welcome. On the road, people were saying we don't want
:08:50. > :08:52.that. . They are not going to take down every flag in the north, we are
:08:53. > :09:02.going to be sensible about the issue. Gregory Campbell. What could
:09:03. > :09:06.be wrong about sensitivity on behalf of the police to an issue that is
:09:07. > :09:16.causing concern in a mixed part of Dell fast? -- Belfast there is
:09:17. > :09:25.nothing wrong with that. I have examples in my constituency where
:09:26. > :09:31.tricolours are trying to come down for months on end. Are we going to
:09:32. > :09:42.have the same sensitivity by police there? Will they go up forcibly and
:09:43. > :09:47.remove them? Will this start at trends -- a trend? Will they be
:09:48. > :09:58.subject to close please scrutiny while criminals will be even more
:09:59. > :10:03.difficult to apprehends while please officers are trying to bring down
:10:04. > :10:08.her flag? Is that the level that we are going to descend to? What is the
:10:09. > :10:13.position of the DUP on this? I get a mixed message. You are concerned
:10:14. > :10:17.about getting tricolours down but your party colleague in south
:10:18. > :10:24.Belfast is saying the police have more important things to do. I just
:10:25. > :10:30.said what we were concerned about. Evil have more important rings to
:10:31. > :10:45.do. But you want to be tricolours down? No, no. The police cannot say
:10:46. > :10:49.that we will intervene there are not intervene anywhere else. We have to
:10:50. > :10:56.be very, very careful here that we do not exasperate and already
:10:57. > :10:59.delicate position. OK, you do not want to do that but what about the
:11:00. > :11:05.people responsible for putting the flags up? The length of the Armagh
:11:06. > :11:11.Road in south Belfast is no longer a Protestant stronghold. Presumably,
:11:12. > :11:16.that is designed to intimidate people? What about people who are
:11:17. > :11:26.uncomfortable about that and do not want to see those flags? In various
:11:27. > :11:29.areas of Northern Ireland we had a, and for the most part, it worked
:11:30. > :11:34.well. Sometimes there were problems but it worked reasonably well. That
:11:35. > :11:40.was with local groups and communities and representatives.
:11:41. > :11:47.They had discussions about how long they could go up for and when they
:11:48. > :11:52.would come down. Those talks fell about as a result of Belfast City
:11:53. > :12:04.Council's decision 18 months ago to remove the union flag. Is it tip for
:12:05. > :12:09.tat? Is it revenge? No, it is not. If they make an extraordinary
:12:10. > :12:13.decision which sends shock waves across the community, they have do
:12:14. > :12:16.say to themselves, was that the right decision and should be revisit
:12:17. > :12:27.it in an effort to de-escalate tensions? Do you see this latest
:12:28. > :12:33.developments as progress, is it a policy you would like to see rolled
:12:34. > :12:36.out across Northern Ireland? I think people are fed up with the
:12:37. > :12:42.application of leadership from Sinn Fein. The political parties have the
:12:43. > :12:46.power and authority to take this out of the hands of the police by
:12:47. > :12:50.reaching an agreement on the issue of flags. One party put forward
:12:51. > :12:55.proposals in the past process to deal with these issues. The DUP
:12:56. > :13:01.point-blank refused to address this issue. DUP and Sinn Fein have done
:13:02. > :13:07.nothing to address the issue in seven years. There was an original
:13:08. > :13:14.protocol in place which said, no flags on arterial route. The
:13:15. > :13:18.political parties have the power to get this out of the hands of the
:13:19. > :13:28.police. You what about the strategy at the moment? Could you see a
:13:29. > :13:35.person dance -- circumstance where officers would be able to arrest
:13:36. > :13:40.people who put up flags? Would this not further heighten tensions? The
:13:41. > :13:46.failure of political leadership is putting the police in a difficult
:13:47. > :13:50.position. The public have spoken. 75% of people do not support flags
:13:51. > :13:56.on lamp posts for a long period of time. They want to see a timeline
:13:57. > :13:58.for the display of flags, and the political parties need to put a
:13:59. > :14:02.process in place where that can be delivered. Enforcement may be
:14:03. > :14:07.necessary at some point in time by the police, of course. The flags are
:14:08. > :14:12.up at the moment and the police are not going to take them down. There
:14:13. > :14:18.was a lack of clarity around that. They have said it is not their job.
:14:19. > :14:22.This is an issue that is damaging community relations and it is
:14:23. > :14:26.damaging to traders in the areas. There is an opportunity to do this
:14:27. > :14:30.in upcoming talks and There is an opportunity to do this
:14:31. > :14:36.got on with dealing with this. The talks are about several things, and
:14:37. > :14:42.flags are part of the agenda, or we think they will be, certainly an
:14:43. > :14:47.outstanding issue to be resolved. What is the status of those talks at
:14:48. > :14:51.the moment? When you talk to Sinn Fein, there is momentum and this is
:14:52. > :15:06.an attempt to resolve the issue in a small window of opportunity. If we
:15:07. > :15:11.want to get this thing sorted out, what has happened is the DUP seems
:15:12. > :15:19.to be looking over their shoulder at the Ulster Unionists. There are
:15:20. > :15:28.mixed messages coming through. If there is an issue where there is a
:15:29. > :15:36.mixed community, that is something that needs to get sorted out. In
:15:37. > :15:47.areas where any ordinary person would have said, schools, places of
:15:48. > :16:06.worship... An invitation by Gerry Kelly to talk about this, try to --
:16:07. > :16:12.Trico laws in a mixed area. This is a picture of Orange proceeding to
:16:13. > :16:27.their church. There are no flags, no banners, no drums, nothing there
:16:28. > :16:37.except Orangemen walking to church. Sinn Fein went to the parades
:16:38. > :16:41.commission to lodge an objection. They then had four councillors who
:16:42. > :16:53.tried to stop that peaceful procession with no flag, no banner,
:16:54. > :16:57.no drums. Sinn Fein want no Orangemen about the place. Sinn Fein
:16:58. > :17:05.and Gerry Kelly need to realise that this is not going to work. They need
:17:06. > :17:08.to get real and understand that we are talking about a shared future,
:17:09. > :17:14.that is what most people want. We have to knuckle down, accept
:17:15. > :17:19.cultural identities. It is not easy for people in my community but it is
:17:20. > :17:23.not easy for Republicans either and they need to wake up and show some
:17:24. > :17:29.leadership and get people to accept peaceful parades that art
:17:30. > :17:36.inoffensive. They chose to object and take offence. It is not one-way
:17:37. > :17:43.traffic because I am sure Gerry Kelly will quote chapter and verse
:17:44. > :17:50.about incidents where parades were not sensitive to local residents. We
:17:51. > :17:59.need leadership on both sides. Yes, and we are prepared to give that.
:18:00. > :18:04.How? It is a continuation of the talks we engaged in last year. But
:18:05. > :18:10.there needs to be an initiative taken on either side to try to
:18:11. > :18:23.negotiate and see if we can get a resolution. It is not a resolution
:18:24. > :18:30.for Sinn Fein to sit back and say that they will just sit there. There
:18:31. > :18:39.was a deal after the Hillsborough talks but you could not sell it to
:18:40. > :18:45.the Orange order. Are you prepared to put that back on the table? That
:18:46. > :18:49.was a few years ago and we have been back to the table since then and we
:18:50. > :18:53.are prepared to get negotiations going but be under no illusion,
:18:54. > :18:57.everybody needs to step up in the next two to three weeks because
:18:58. > :19:08.there is a very difficult situation brewing on the streets in Northern
:19:09. > :19:12.Ireland. I want to hear from Chris Lyttle. What about the leadership
:19:13. > :19:23.that is not being shown by Sinn Fein? The message that that sends
:19:24. > :19:27.out, Sinn Fein objecting to Orangemen progressing to church
:19:28. > :19:36.without any flags or anthems. He is not happy about that, he is showing
:19:37. > :19:44.the picture. If he means asked talking to the parades commission,
:19:45. > :19:51.that is legitimate. According to impartial observers who were
:19:52. > :19:57.there... Sinn Fein and the residents as well as the DUP and others, what
:19:58. > :20:06.we are down to is, are they prepared to sit down? We had the opportunity
:20:07. > :20:14.to do that. All of the parties accept it despite the fact that
:20:15. > :20:19.there was pain on all sides. Who will chair these talks and do they
:20:20. > :20:26.stand any chance of success? We have the DUP and Sinn Fein tonight, who
:20:27. > :20:32.are responsible for community relations. All public areas should
:20:33. > :20:39.be shared space and we need significant leadership from the
:20:40. > :20:46.parties. It is about behaving in a respectful balanced way when you are
:20:47. > :20:49.in that space. Both Gerry Kelly and Gregory Campbell say they are
:20:50. > :20:52.willing to show leadership and they recognised that difficult decisions
:20:53. > :21:02.need to be made. Is there a tiny chink of hope? I hope so but we have
:21:03. > :21:06.had seven years of this and we have put forward proposals that could
:21:07. > :21:12.solve this. I hope we see something from these talks for the sake of our
:21:13. > :21:14.community. We will see what happens when the talks get under way. Thank
:21:15. > :21:21.you, gentlemen, very much indeed. Northern Ireland hasn't exactly
:21:22. > :21:22.covered itself in glory these last few weeks
:21:23. > :21:25.as far as race relations go. Anti-Islamic rhetoric and attacks
:21:26. > :21:27.on immigrants and on their homes have led to calls
:21:28. > :21:30.for politicians to unveil their Well, tonight here on The View,
:21:31. > :21:34.we can reveal what is It's called A Sense of Belonging
:21:35. > :21:43.and it outlines six main aims: the elimination of racism,
:21:44. > :21:47.racial inequality and discrimination and the promotion
:21:48. > :21:50.of equality of opportunity. It aims to combat racism
:21:51. > :21:52.and race hate crime. To ensure people
:21:53. > :21:54.from minority ethnic backgrounds To increase participation,
:21:55. > :22:00.representation and a sense of To strengthen relations
:22:01. > :22:06.between people of different faiths And to help minority communities
:22:07. > :22:10.develop leadership at local The document also makes
:22:11. > :22:15.a strong link between racism Our Political Editor, Mark
:22:16. > :22:49.Devenport, has been reading the Thank you for joining us. It is a
:22:50. > :22:55.substantial, 16 page document. Are there any particular surprises come
:22:56. > :23:01.do you think? Not really. We have to bear in mind the fact that it is
:23:02. > :23:08.four years out of date, a previous strategy lasted until 2010, and this
:23:09. > :23:18.is due to run until 2024. It was the document that Anna Lo was getting
:23:19. > :23:24.upset about because she said there had not been a strategy despite the
:23:25. > :23:30.upsurge in racist attacks. Most people would agree that you need to
:23:31. > :23:35.combat racism and hate crime and try to make sure that there is equal
:23:36. > :23:40.service provision to people no matter what race they are. There is
:23:41. > :23:46.discussion of a possible seventh came, about the right to maintain
:23:47. > :23:51.one's cultural identity. There is a debate about whether that is a good
:23:52. > :23:57.thing to include because obviously whilst to some extent everybody
:23:58. > :24:01.might subscribe to that there might be aspects of cultural identity,
:24:02. > :24:11.gentle mutilations, which in this society we might not wish to
:24:12. > :24:16.sustain. Were you surprised to see a regional immigration policy being
:24:17. > :24:20.floated? That was the most surprising aspect. Not least because
:24:21. > :24:24.you might say why should Stormont have an immigration policy, because
:24:25. > :24:30.immigration in the UK is not a devolved matter. Why do we have this
:24:31. > :24:37.reference to an immigration policy? In that chapter it talks about that
:24:38. > :24:48.at times our regional interests will not coincide with those of Britain.
:24:49. > :24:55.Obviously that braces questions as to what could be a regional
:24:56. > :24:58.immigration policy and how to what could be a regional
:24:59. > :25:00.it might be to have one, given, are we going to have separate order
:25:01. > :25:06.controls for Northern Ireland? we going to have separate order
:25:07. > :25:17.more limited local relation to legal aid to migrants,
:25:18. > :25:23.perhaps a slightly more liberal approach than the rest of the UK. If
:25:24. > :25:26.it is limited to that maybe not so contentious but if it starts a
:25:27. > :25:30.debate about something bigger that could have political kickback. As we
:25:31. > :25:33.understand it could have political kickback. As we
:25:34. > :25:43.have both signed up to the draft document. It is possible, is it,
:25:44. > :25:48.that the DUP could be criticised by elements within the TUV and UKIP for
:25:49. > :25:56.being even seen to encourage discussion about the regional
:25:57. > :26:00.immigration policy? It is surprising that they seem fairly relaxed about
:26:01. > :26:04.this aspect of the document. They might say that it is just out there
:26:05. > :26:13.as a consultation document, but to some extent you could say, we have
:26:14. > :26:18.just had an election, many people have just voted for UKIP, who have
:26:19. > :26:22.tightening immigration controls as a big selling point. When they look at
:26:23. > :26:30.that particular chapter it might give them a stick to beat the DUP
:26:31. > :26:37.with over immigration. One source I talked to said that they may be
:26:38. > :26:40.managing expect Haitians, because perhaps some of those who have been
:26:41. > :26:50.waiting for this may not feel it is as robust as it might be. --
:26:51. > :26:58.managing expectations. Maybe within the world of those who are
:26:59. > :27:06.monitoring racism, they may have specific differences about the
:27:07. > :27:11.implementation of the strategy, talk of an equality panel, talk of ?1
:27:12. > :27:15.million fund, and it is not clear whether that is up and running.
:27:16. > :27:20.There may be debate about this. In terms of the wider political
:27:21. > :27:27.sphere, the immigration sector is probably the one that will spark the
:27:28. > :27:35.most exchanges on the Unionist side. This will shortly go out to public
:27:36. > :27:38.consultation. What kind of reaction do you think we will get when it
:27:39. > :27:44.finds its way into the public domain? Apart from being
:27:45. > :27:50.underwhelmed, I think most of the lobbyists already have a sense of
:27:51. > :27:54.what is in it. Maybe it is another illustration of things that should
:27:55. > :27:57.not take too long taking an awful long time to get out of the office
:27:58. > :28:03.of the first Minister. Let's hear the thoughts of tonight's
:28:04. > :28:05.commentators on a busy programme. Alex Kane
:28:06. > :28:09.and Paul McFadden are with me. You managed to tear yourselves away
:28:10. > :28:27.from the football, then? He did! What is the score? 2-2.
:28:28. > :28:29.2-1. We will not all you any more on that.
:28:30. > :28:32.This police statement to The View tonight on the flying of flags on
:28:33. > :28:36.the Ormeau Road in south Belfast - how significant a development is it?
:28:37. > :28:43.I think it is certainly significant. I do have some sympathy
:28:44. > :28:47.with the police because it is difficult to police, and it will be
:28:48. > :28:58.interesting to see how they do that. The pictures we saw earlier on
:28:59. > :29:02.of flags, I think it is not on, in this day and age. I can see why the
:29:03. > :29:08.police would take the view that it would heighten tensions. There is a
:29:09. > :29:13.difference between flying and flaunting, and we need to strike the
:29:14. > :29:23.balance. Alex, the differences between Sinn Fein and DUP were quite
:29:24. > :29:30.large in that exchange. Absolutely. It is turf war. I agree with the
:29:31. > :29:34.police at the suggestion seems to be that you cannot fly certain flags in
:29:35. > :29:40.mixed areas that are they saying that it is OK if the majority in one
:29:41. > :29:46.area once a particular flag? Where do you draw the line? Why now? Why
:29:47. > :29:52.two days after the parties announced there would be talks on flags does
:29:53. > :29:57.he come in and say, we have changed our policy? Will Sinn Fein exploit
:29:58. > :30:11.this in other areas? They may well do. Gregory talked about the
:30:12. > :30:15.decision. He called the decision extraordinary. It may have been
:30:16. > :30:20.extraordinary but it was a democratic decision. It is important
:30:21. > :30:26.to bear that in mind. Almost seems as though that may be Gregory and
:30:27. > :30:32.those who are erecting flags are trying to achieve something, trying
:30:33. > :30:39.to force a change with Belfast City Council. I do not think that will
:30:40. > :30:41.happen. I just worry that if both sides are going to say this type of
:30:42. > :30:48.flag is acceptable here, not acceptable here, this is not going
:30:49. > :30:55.to go away. Even the Alliance party, he had a slightly different angle.
:30:56. > :31:04.Three parties do not agree on anything. I was asking whether Sinn
:31:05. > :31:14.Fein would exploit it but Republicans may ask whether
:31:15. > :31:19.loyalists may do so? It is a dangerous game at a sensitive time.
:31:20. > :31:28.It is a recipe for disaster, possibly looming. At the end of the
:31:29. > :31:32.day, the police will be dealing with the consequences of all this. I do
:31:33. > :31:36.not know how they deal with this because they will not drop the lamp
:31:37. > :31:42.posts to deal with the flags. I think people will deliberately stand
:31:43. > :31:47.at lamp posts, almost taunting the police.
:31:48. > :31:55.The first look at the draft Race Equality Strategy - any surprises?
:31:56. > :32:08.Nothing surprises me at all. Mark used the words underwhelming. I am
:32:09. > :32:16.underwhelmed by it. The fundamental question... A quality is well and
:32:17. > :32:21.good I want to know whether this document will do anything that will
:32:22. > :32:26.make me feel safer and reduce the tax members of my community. Alex,
:32:27. > :32:33.what do you think about the support from the DUP for a discussion on
:32:34. > :32:38.regional immigration policy? Will there be others in the Unionist
:32:39. > :32:45.family who will exploit that? No, it will not go anywhere. It is the
:32:46. > :32:49.language they use. When they say racial equality, they cannot even
:32:50. > :32:58.agree to bring Republicans in. 3-1 in the football. Have you got Brazil
:32:59. > :33:05.in the office sweepstake? I am not playing. We will leave it there.
:33:06. > :33:07.That is it from us for now, join me for Sunday Politics at 11:35am on
:33:08. > :33:13.BBC One. the officials and the fans get into
:33:14. > :33:20.the groove in Brazil for the World