:00:08. > :00:38.The leaders of unionism have decided there is no longer any prospect of
:00:39. > :00:40.success. The political talks as they stand are now fruitless. We will
:00:41. > :00:44.play no further part in them. With unionists claiming today's
:00:45. > :00:46.talks walk-out is an attempt to avoid violence and disorder over
:00:47. > :00:48.a Twelfth Parade being prevented from returning up the Crumlin Road,
:00:49. > :00:51.we speak to the man charged with managing the situation
:00:52. > :00:54.on the streets - the new And with the talks now apparently
:00:55. > :00:57.dead in the water, we hear from the main parties on
:00:58. > :01:00.where this leaves efforts to resolve We'll also have analysis
:01:01. > :01:03.from our regular commentators Alex Kane and Paul McFadden - and
:01:04. > :01:06.you can, of course, join the debate Those sceptics who held out little
:01:07. > :01:21.prospect of the new round of talks getting anywhere were
:01:22. > :01:24.proven right even more quickly than they might have anticipated
:01:25. > :01:25.when the unionists involved The Parades' Commission's decision
:01:26. > :01:37.to repeat last year's ruling preventing an Orange lodge
:01:38. > :01:39.and bands from passing the Ardoyne shops on the evening of the Twelfth
:01:40. > :01:41.triggered the move. The Democratic Unionists, Ulster
:01:42. > :01:44.Unionists and TUV joined the PUP and UPRG in issuing a joint statement
:01:45. > :01:47.saying they're working together to, as they put it, avert violence
:01:48. > :01:50.and destruction on our streets. With me tonight to discuss this
:01:51. > :01:53.latest twist are the Alliance leader, David Ford, Jonathan Bell of
:01:54. > :01:56.the DUP, Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly, Tom Elliot of the Ulster Unionist
:01:57. > :02:01.Party and the SDLP's Alex Attwood. In the joint statement issued
:02:02. > :02:14.when you left these talks, you say you want to avert violence,
:02:15. > :02:28.but surely all you've done is What we have done is provide
:02:29. > :02:32.political leadership to a process that was fundamentally flawed
:02:33. > :02:41.because democracy was under threat from republican violence. We had the
:02:42. > :02:49.threat of catastrophic consequences if a peaceful Orange parade was
:02:50. > :02:56.allowed. And as a result of those threats of violence, they very
:02:57. > :02:59.clearly said it was as a result of the threat of violence that they
:03:00. > :03:01.changed the determination or they made its termination that a six
:03:02. > :03:09.minute peaceful Orange parade couldn't proceed along and arterial
:03:10. > :03:17.routes to their home. There was a historical problem, and they thought
:03:18. > :03:20.there was a danger with allowing the parade go ahead which outweighed
:03:21. > :03:23.allowing it not to go ahead. The difficulty with your stance is you
:03:24. > :03:29.have raised the possibility of widespread violence, and that, your
:03:30. > :03:36.opponent to Mac say, is the height of irresponsibility. I was on the
:03:37. > :03:39.parade in 2012. Even your BBC journalist walked the route and told
:03:40. > :03:45.us it was impossible to do, and yet we did it and we did it by using
:03:46. > :03:51.buses and changing times. We abided completely by the law. The
:03:52. > :03:57.Republicans opened up with a machine gun, and that has not been shown on
:03:58. > :04:01.television. And what was the response in 2013? Republican
:04:02. > :04:06.violence was rewarded and the good, lawful behaviour as the Orangemen of
:04:07. > :04:19.North al fast -- Belfast was punished. Democracy was under threat
:04:20. > :04:25.from violence. From all sides. Your major concern is to other violence?
:04:26. > :04:29.So accept the Parades Commission decisions and stay off the streets.
:04:30. > :04:34.That would be constructive. We're talking about freedom of basic
:04:35. > :04:39.cultural expression. We're talking about a six minute parade. We want
:04:40. > :04:49.any action that goes forward to be peaceful and law-abiding. We want to
:04:50. > :04:55.avert violence. Four. If you want to say... Don't try to twist words.
:04:56. > :05:02.Accept the Parades Commission decisions and stay off the streets.
:05:03. > :05:10.What part of the peaceful and lawful action we are calling for is
:05:11. > :05:13.difficult? Your colleague Nigel Dodds called for people to avoid
:05:14. > :05:20.violence on the streets last year, and he got hit on the head with a
:05:21. > :05:24.brick thrown by a loyalist. Let me go back to where the violence has
:05:25. > :05:38.come from in 2012. The brick that was thrown at Nigel Dodds was thrown
:05:39. > :05:43.by a loyalist. Republican violence has been rewarded, and as a result
:05:44. > :05:49.is that, that might not be the message you want to hear, but as a
:05:50. > :05:53.result of that, we are looking for a peaceful way forward, but freedom of
:05:54. > :05:58.cultural expression... And what about the policemen who will find
:05:59. > :06:02.themselves having to police this? No attacks on the Blues whatsoever.
:06:03. > :06:11.They are inexcusable and wrong. So what I am calling for is the
:06:12. > :06:19.Unionist leadership will act to protect against the threat coming to
:06:20. > :06:25.it. I don't know where to start. The question to be asked of Jonathan is
:06:26. > :06:30.what is he talking about? There is a threat of violence from republican
:06:31. > :06:34.quarters, that is what he says. I assume the violence you are talking
:06:35. > :06:38.about this year is from loyalists? Are you talking about the violence
:06:39. > :06:44.this year? You say you are trying to avert violence. Are you talking
:06:45. > :06:48.about the violence this year? What he is talking about is the fact that
:06:49. > :06:52.the Parades Commission has Maister determination based on concerns that
:06:53. > :07:03.they could be violence from nationalists and/or Republicans. The
:07:04. > :07:08.people in those talks are hiding behind violence, that is what he is
:07:09. > :07:16.claiming. Are you hiding behind violence? I am not. It is a complete
:07:17. > :07:23.nonsense. Let me finish. The second thing is that we are now told by the
:07:24. > :07:27.leader of the DUP that the institutions are under threat from
:07:28. > :07:31.the Parades Commission. Now how do you stand over statements like
:07:32. > :07:36.that? Why would you put that burden on them? They have nothing to do
:07:37. > :07:44.with it. If you want leadership, stay at the talks. We are supposed
:07:45. > :07:47.to be working this stuff out. And throwing the dummy out and calling
:07:48. > :07:54.that leadership makes my mind boggle. Why all the institutions
:07:55. > :07:59.under threat from the Parades Commission? They said they have
:08:00. > :08:03.changed their determination based on the threat of violence. And where
:08:04. > :08:08.did that come from a smack the threat to bring thousands of people
:08:09. > :08:12.out onto the street. What is that got to do with bringing down the
:08:13. > :08:16.institutions? It was the Deputy First Minister who dropped of
:08:17. > :08:21.catastrophic sequences if the parade was allowed to go ahead, so it was
:08:22. > :08:24.the Deputy First Minister... What has that got to do with the
:08:25. > :08:30.institutions collapsing? What is the connection? The threat of republican
:08:31. > :08:34.violence perverting democracy. We have to abide by the democratic
:08:35. > :08:42.process. So your answer to that is to walk out of the talks? The
:08:43. > :08:45.determination is based on the fact that the Republicans threatened to
:08:46. > :08:55.bring thousands of people onto the streets. We have acted to protect
:08:56. > :08:59.democracy. Tom Elliott, what is the connection between the Parades
:09:00. > :09:05.Commission ruling and the future of the institutions Stormont? I didn't
:09:06. > :09:18.hear anybody say that the institutions were in danger. He just
:09:19. > :09:23.said that they are in peril. Are they in peril or not? Are they about
:09:24. > :09:28.to collapse or not? I didn't use the word in peril. What I have said is
:09:29. > :09:33.that democracy is under threat from the risk of republican violence full
:09:34. > :09:36.top are the institutions under threat? I am saying that
:09:37. > :09:40.democracy... top are the institutions under
:09:41. > :09:47.threat? I Are the institutions under threat? Are the institutions under
:09:48. > :09:52.threat? What part of our the democratic process is under threat
:09:53. > :09:58.are you not getting? What part of all the institutions under threat
:09:59. > :10:08.are you not getting? We will work instructive lead take Northern
:10:09. > :10:11.Ireland forward. Right, OK. Tom Elliott you acting to protect
:10:12. > :10:16.democracy? Is that what walking out of the talks was about today? What
:10:17. > :10:21.we want to see is a better Northern Ireland. We want to make sure there
:10:22. > :10:25.is no violence in the next two or three weeks. People accused us in
:10:26. > :10:30.the past of no political leadership will stop people said last year if
:10:31. > :10:33.we had an more, it is the political institutions and leaders that could
:10:34. > :10:41.have done more. What we are trying to do is give leadership. Nobody has
:10:42. > :10:54.ever from the Ulster Unionists' is effective, what we want to see is a
:10:55. > :11:06.positive outcome. Why not talk about these controversial issues? DS --
:11:07. > :11:13.the SDLP, Sinn Fein, others, we are there ready to talk about the
:11:14. > :11:19.issues. Are you going to ratchet things up in the days and weeks
:11:20. > :11:26.ahead? The media will no whatever body else knows. There are plans
:11:27. > :11:32.ahead, and I can tell you, you will hear about them in the next days.
:11:33. > :11:38.Does it involve bringing people out onto the streets? I wouldn't call
:11:39. > :11:42.people out onto the streets. It may entail protests. That doesn't mean
:11:43. > :11:45.protests on the street. I protested today by coming out of the talks,
:11:46. > :11:51.but that doesn't mean I am out on the streets protesting. Protests can
:11:52. > :11:55.take many forms. Would it not have been easier, frankly, to allow the
:11:56. > :12:02.six minute parade to go up the Crumlin Road and be done with it? It
:12:03. > :12:06.has been confirmed by Jonathan, by Nigel Dodds, they are now exploiting
:12:07. > :12:11.people's worst fears. They are saying to people, across Northern
:12:12. > :12:17.Ireland, not just in Belfast, they are saying very clearly, your worst
:12:18. > :12:22.fears are justified. Democracy now is under threat. And at the same
:12:23. > :12:25.time, rather than sending the message which has to be the biggest
:12:26. > :12:34.message of all those who are responsible, the parties, the
:12:35. > :12:37.churches, the communities, rather than sending the message that you
:12:38. > :12:44.have to accept the commission, there are talking about escalating Ings
:12:45. > :12:52.over the next ten days. And what they need to do, and they need to do
:12:53. > :12:54.it very, quickly, unless you accept the Parades Commission
:12:55. > :12:59.determination, you could lead to chaos, and unless you tell people
:13:00. > :13:03.that their worst fears are not justified, even though they don't
:13:04. > :13:09.like the Parades Commission determination, then you will not be
:13:10. > :13:12.able to put this back. Unionists say, and Jonathan Bell has said it
:13:13. > :13:16.clearly, this determination is a reward for violence. How do you
:13:17. > :13:26.respond to that? Heidi persuade him that that is not the case? First of
:13:27. > :13:31.all, too many people have talked with forked tongues. It is not that
:13:32. > :13:38.long ago that the Woodvale Parade, the last Saturday in June, saw
:13:39. > :13:42.loyalist gunmen firing shots from rooftops at the police. And yet a
:13:43. > :13:50.few months later, a second parade was allowed. So I think unionism and
:13:51. > :13:56.oranges need to be very careful when they talk about violence and the
:13:57. > :14:03.Parades Commission, because violence was used to influence the Parades
:14:04. > :14:06.Commission in the past. He says that anybody demonstrating should do so
:14:07. > :14:14.peacefully. That has been said time and again in today's joint
:14:15. > :14:19.statement. But in previous times, Orangemen and Unionist have
:14:20. > :14:24.benefited from the threat of violence to get their own way. The
:14:25. > :14:29.Parades Commission last year said that a big factor in determining
:14:30. > :14:33.whether a parade would be allowed this year was the quality and
:14:34. > :14:40.character of dialogue. All disputes about parades are actually disputes
:14:41. > :14:46.about relationships, and resolving relationships needs sustainable
:14:47. > :14:51.dialogue. Front and centre in its commission determination was that
:14:52. > :14:54.the dialogue had been piecemeal. That is the biggest factor, in my
:14:55. > :14:59.view, when it comes to this determination. As the Alliance party
:15:00. > :15:03.leader and the Minister of Justice, how angry are you at today's
:15:04. > :15:12.development? I am frustrated and angry. I wonder what determination
:15:13. > :15:17.Unionists read. I wonder if they even read it, given that they pulled
:15:18. > :15:21.out of the talks so soon. I read it this afternoon, and it related to
:15:22. > :15:30.the issue of engagement and the quality of engagement. Piecemeal.
:15:31. > :15:34.And reaches of determinations with the multiple parades and protests
:15:35. > :15:39.that there have been in the Woodvale area since last July. So it wasn't a
:15:40. > :15:45.threat of republican violence, it was in response to the failure of
:15:46. > :15:51.unionism to behave it self, and Jonathan can shake his head if he
:15:52. > :15:56.likes. It is not true. It is exactly what the determination says, and I
:15:57. > :16:05.suggest you read it. It might have been a good idea to read it before
:16:06. > :16:11.you rushed out. The point is that it says more than that. You are picking
:16:12. > :16:14.one line. The critical issue was a determination by the Unionist parade
:16:15. > :16:19.on the basis of the behaviour by those who paraded, who also have
:16:20. > :16:26.been breaching determinations all year.
:16:27. > :16:33.Hang on, Jonathan Bell. I want to ask another question. You said today
:16:34. > :16:35.that the Unionist walk-out raises questions about fitness for
:16:36. > :16:44.power-sharing Government. Is that not unhelpful? Do you not think, at
:16:45. > :16:49.a time when we sat down to engage in what was agreed by unionists to be
:16:50. > :16:52.important, six days of intensive discussions, to look at the key
:16:53. > :16:59.issues around not just the parades, but also flags and emblems, the
:17:00. > :17:03.critical thing is that we hear plenty of concern for victims from
:17:04. > :17:08.the Unionists, but they betrayed their concern in that by the way
:17:09. > :17:11.they walked out. Whatever Tom says, this was not about the party is
:17:12. > :17:14.taking over the function of the parades commission to determine on
:17:15. > :17:17.individual parades which would be determined over the next day or two.
:17:18. > :17:23.This was about an overarching arrangement. I want to ask you how
:17:24. > :17:28.you would persuade Tom Elliott and Jonathan Bell that the culture they
:17:29. > :17:32.feel a part of and our political representatives of is under threat?
:17:33. > :17:37.That is what they say. They see it on flags, parades, and they think
:17:38. > :17:41.that you and your party particularly, is at the heart of
:17:42. > :17:45.driving that agenda. How do you persuade them that they have got it
:17:46. > :17:51.wrong? I don't know if I can. I will try and do it in this way. I will do
:17:52. > :17:57.it briefly. We have statistics out now that the number parades have
:17:58. > :18:02.increased, doubled, and loyalist bands have also doubled. So instead
:18:03. > :18:08.of the culture actually diminishing, it seems to me that it is motioning
:18:09. > :18:13.to that amount of other cultures, but that's fair enough. I see it as
:18:14. > :18:20.a myth, and they are peddling it to people on the ground, and somebody
:18:21. > :18:26.said about it, the Justice Minister, it was, we need to go back to their
:18:27. > :18:30.homes to know. These are working-class people who are living
:18:31. > :18:37.in the shank Hill Road, Allwood Bill or other Protestant areas -- or
:18:38. > :18:41.would Bill. -- would Bill. The contradiction of saying you are an
:18:42. > :18:56.electric representative -- elected representative... How are you trying
:18:57. > :19:02.to persuade us? What has that got to do with parades? They are named
:19:03. > :19:08.after an IRA member. They are twin sides of the same coin. Let him
:19:09. > :19:14.speak and I will go back to Jonathan Bell. The contradiction is saying
:19:15. > :19:18.that you are showing leadership and then walking out of talks which were
:19:19. > :19:25.trying to deal with the three toxic issues which people want us to deal
:19:26. > :19:30.with, and then threatening... I didn't walk out. You shouldn't have
:19:31. > :19:33.come to the talks in the first place. If I can get through this
:19:34. > :19:38.without being interrupted, and then saying that the institutions, so
:19:39. > :19:46.you're talking about those, then threatening them, how do you work
:19:47. > :19:49.the logic out in that? How can anybody out there take your
:19:50. > :19:55.leadership as anything else but winding the situation up? Two
:19:56. > :20:02.points. The justice minister has failed to explain to people why, in
:20:03. > :20:06.2012, when a peaceful, legitimate Orange possession, no matter how
:20:07. > :20:09.difficult the circumstances were, created peacefully and lawfully came
:20:10. > :20:13.under attack from a republican gunmen and the reward for that was
:20:14. > :20:20.to damage the people who acted in the law and to punish them, to
:20:21. > :20:25.reward republican violence. The SDLP give lectures here, and then go into
:20:26. > :20:33.the other playpark. It's an absolute disgrace. So, that was wrong. What
:20:34. > :20:40.have you done to change it? We will work to change it. We have said
:20:41. > :20:44.publicly that what we did was wrong. Is it wrong to report -- reward
:20:45. > :20:49.republican violence and then in children's playgrounds, hides a gun
:20:50. > :20:58.from the Kingsmill massacre? If it is wrong for us to have named a park
:20:59. > :21:02.after someone involved in a terrorist organisation, then people
:21:03. > :21:07.over the next ten days have to be on the right side of democracy, the
:21:08. > :21:15.rule of law and doing the best for people especially. A final sentence
:21:16. > :21:20.from Tom Elliott. Alex, we need to leave it. The point we need to clear
:21:21. > :21:26.up, is that those Orangemen have not done enough from last year. They
:21:27. > :21:28.have engaged in talks and consistent talks and it's an absolute
:21:29. > :21:32.fabrication to say that they have not. They have, and they followed
:21:33. > :21:37.the road maps set out by the commission. They followed the road
:21:38. > :21:44.map that the parades commission set out last year. That is not what the
:21:45. > :21:47.determination says. The Minister of Justice does not have a role in
:21:48. > :21:53.defending the commission's decision, because the Parades
:21:54. > :21:56.Commission is the body established to adjudicate on parades and protest
:21:57. > :22:01.because we can't agree anything different. Their rulings should be
:22:02. > :22:04.accepted as the ruling of course should be accepted, whether you like
:22:05. > :22:12.them or not. It is the you to accept them until -- and for the Orangemen
:22:13. > :22:17.to accept them. How threatened do you think Stormont and devolved
:22:18. > :22:19.institutions are by today's developments question it has not
:22:20. > :22:23.done the issue of devolution any good. As we face financial
:22:24. > :22:31.difficulties because of welfare reform, we are failing to deal with
:22:32. > :22:38.the fundamental issues of the past. We need to leave it there folks.
:22:39. > :22:41.We're out of time. I don't think we have seen a meeting of minds there.
:22:42. > :22:45.We will leave at for tonight. Thank you all very much, gentlemen.
:22:46. > :22:47.Well, he's been in the job for just four days
:22:48. > :22:50.and now the new Chief Constable, George Hamilton, finds himself
:22:51. > :22:52.having to manage the outworkings of yet another political crisis.
:22:53. > :22:54.Mr Hamilton joins me now for his first in-depth interview
:22:55. > :23:02.Thanks for joining us on the programme tonight.
:23:03. > :23:06.Let's talk about the politics of where we are first.
:23:07. > :23:10.You've listened to 20 minutes of five politicians agreeing on very
:23:11. > :23:12.little. What are your thoughts
:23:13. > :23:19.on the debate you've just watched? I am an eternal optimist, but I
:23:20. > :23:24.heard some things in that debate that were serious issue. In the
:23:25. > :23:30.middle of lots of disagreement, I was hearing consensus that any
:23:31. > :23:33.activity should be lawful, from the DUP, and the Ulster Unionist party
:23:34. > :23:36.are saying they are not calling people onto the street, and that is
:23:37. > :23:40.critical, because once people are called onto the street it becomes
:23:41. > :23:46.very difficult to have any influence or control over their behaviour. I
:23:47. > :23:50.am hearing pleas across all five parties that people would not resort
:23:51. > :23:54.to violence, no matter how aggrieved they feel. That is important. The
:23:55. > :23:58.trick in this is to get it from the political level down to a community
:23:59. > :24:03.level, even down to family level. Since the start of the flags protest
:24:04. > :24:10.we have arrested, charged or reported almost 700 people, many of
:24:11. > :24:14.them people with a 97% conviction rate, nearly 700 people with
:24:15. > :24:17.convictions who did not need to have them. It's important that influences
:24:18. > :24:23.brought to bear, not just from the political commentary we just heard,
:24:24. > :24:26.and there were some please for no violence and peaceful and lawful
:24:27. > :24:30.protest. We need to find a way to get that down to community level so
:24:31. > :24:32.that parents and people with influence can ensure that young
:24:33. > :24:36.people don't become criminalised through this. Those are the
:24:37. > :24:39.positives you take out of the discussion, and your right to draw
:24:40. > :24:43.attention to the fact that those points were made. Protests should be
:24:44. > :24:50.peaceful and not brought onto the street. What about the possibility
:24:51. > :24:54.of mixed messages in what has been said since lunchtime today?
:24:55. > :24:57.Unionists have said that the determination from the commission
:24:58. > :25:01.rewards of islands. Could that not be interpreted, by some people --
:25:02. > :25:08.rewards of violence. Or should I say misinterpreted by people to take it
:25:09. > :25:11.onto the streets, and engage in violence and see violence rewarded
:25:12. > :25:19.in the process we have in Northern Ireland? I think all of this, in
:25:20. > :25:22.civic and political life, we need to be circumspect about the language
:25:23. > :25:26.use when tensions are raised. That is a general principle and I think
:25:27. > :25:31.it is good, common sense. It's not the meat to lecture politicians on
:25:32. > :25:36.the language they use -- it is not for me. They are accountable for the
:25:37. > :25:39.language they use, and they need to be clear about the role of the
:25:40. > :25:47.police, which is to keep people safe, our poll the rule of law --
:25:48. > :25:51.our poll. The conversation here is to dip -- uphold the determination
:25:52. > :25:56.of the commission and we deal with the aftermath. Would it not be
:25:57. > :25:59.helpful for politicians to say we did not like the determination and
:26:00. > :26:04.we think it is flawed, we think it's a mistake, we fundamentally disagree
:26:05. > :26:07.with it, but we have to accept it? Because it is a lawful body, an
:26:08. > :26:12.independent body, it has looked at the evidence and made its decision,
:26:13. > :26:15.and people should not do anything to protest against it. They might not
:26:16. > :26:20.like it, but they need to accept it. But that is not what politicians are
:26:21. > :26:23.saying. It is not what I am saying, but I won't move into the space
:26:24. > :26:28.where I tell politicians what to say. I need to be clear. The role of
:26:29. > :26:32.the police is actually very simple and straightforward in this, albeit
:26:33. > :26:36.in a hugely challenging operating environment. The role of the police
:26:37. > :26:40.is to uphold the rule of law, and the determination. When people
:26:41. > :26:44.breach that and become offenders, we collect evidence, where appropriate
:26:45. > :26:46.to arrest them, take the evidence to the prosecutor and they end up
:26:47. > :26:50.before the court. We don't want to do that with our young people. The
:26:51. > :26:54.people have choices to make. Groups, families, communities, they have
:26:55. > :26:58.choices to make about how people will behave on the streets. You
:26:59. > :27:02.don't want to do that, but will you do it if necessary? Absolutely. Let
:27:03. > :27:06.me be unequivocal. The job is to collect evidence and lock up people
:27:07. > :27:09.who break the law. That is what we will do. We will uphold the
:27:10. > :27:14.determination. Do you think, perhaps, in the past, maybe last
:27:15. > :27:19.year, in the way you dealt with some of the difficulties on our streets,
:27:20. > :27:24.the PSN I adopted too much of a softly softly approach? That is a
:27:25. > :27:27.commentary that has been made. The Court of Appeal has validated the
:27:28. > :27:30.approach we took last year. All of us have lessons to learn how to
:27:31. > :27:35.learn out of how the flags protest was handled. We will look at that
:27:36. > :27:38.and we will look at it again, but let's be clear, people who breach
:27:39. > :27:43.that determination and people who involve themselves in disorder will
:27:44. > :27:45.have evidence again then collected, they will be appropriately arrested,
:27:46. > :27:49.and the determination will be upheld, and people, by breaching it,
:27:50. > :27:54.will find themselves before the courts. Are we going to see a
:27:55. > :27:58.tougher approach on the part of the police under the new chief
:27:59. > :28:01.constable? This chief constable will exercise the law within the human
:28:02. > :28:05.rights framework. We want to be sensitive but we want to be robust.
:28:06. > :28:08.It is clear that the determination has been issued. People don't like
:28:09. > :28:11.it, and I understand they feel aggrieved, but my job is to ensure
:28:12. > :28:17.that the determination is enforced and that is what we will do. Can I
:28:18. > :28:21.ask you about the main Unionist leaders signing a statement today
:28:22. > :28:27.alongside two smaller parties which have links to loyalist
:28:28. > :28:31.paramilitaries. You have made it clear, and he spoke to the policing
:28:32. > :28:33.board today, you believe the paramilitary organisations are
:28:34. > :28:38.active and engaged in breaking the law. Is that appropriate for our
:28:39. > :28:42.politicians, to be signing a statement with the political
:28:43. > :28:45.representatives of those groups? I'm not going to get into lecturing
:28:46. > :28:50.politicians about who they should associate with or who they should
:28:51. > :28:53.talk to. I would say this. I would seek -- rather see senior
:28:54. > :28:57.politicians embrace dialogues with groups who have influence at
:28:58. > :29:01.community level so order can be maintained, rather than leave them
:29:02. > :29:04.to run free and end up fighting with the police or other communities. It
:29:05. > :29:08.seems to me that talking is always better than fighting. I would
:29:09. > :29:13.encourage them to do that. What preparations have you made to access
:29:14. > :29:16.additional support from GB police forces if things turn nasty on the
:29:17. > :29:20.streets over the marching season? That was something done last year.
:29:21. > :29:24.Have you made the same preparations this year? There are similar
:29:25. > :29:28.preparations in place, but the tactics will be different. We have a
:29:29. > :29:32.contingency in place that if there is disorder for a prolonged period
:29:33. > :29:35.of time, and if we start to have fatigue and resilience issues with
:29:36. > :29:42.officers, in the worst-case scenario we have a in place to bring in
:29:43. > :29:45.officers to add to the resilience of the public order resources. But I am
:29:46. > :29:49.confident we have sufficient resources to deal with this parade
:29:50. > :29:55.and the determination on the 12th of July. Can I clarify one thing? Last
:29:56. > :29:59.month on this programme we reported that there were loyalist putting up
:30:00. > :30:03.flags and if they repeated it would be deemed as a breach of the peace,
:30:04. > :30:07.and the same thing happened on the Lisburn Road and no action was
:30:08. > :30:12.taken. What is the policy on flags going to be under your leadership?
:30:13. > :30:16.The policy on flags is broader than me, the police service and my
:30:17. > :30:21.leadership. We have a role to play in this, but flags is one of the
:30:22. > :30:27.issues that the Richard Haass initiative was meant to tackle and
:30:28. > :30:30.they did not achieve consensus. The all-party talks this morning were
:30:31. > :30:34.meant to tackle that and they were unable to do it. For the police,
:30:35. > :30:38.this is a mess around flags because there is not the framework in
:30:39. > :30:42.place. We need a multi-agency response. The flying flags in itself
:30:43. > :30:45.is not a criminal offence. Taking down flags by the police will not
:30:46. > :30:52.happen unless there is a serious risk to public safety or there is a
:30:53. > :30:55.clear commission of an offence by an individual putting up a flag. A
:30:56. > :31:00.final question about resources because I need to move on. You say
:31:01. > :31:03.it is difficult and there is a challenging situation on a number of
:31:04. > :31:07.fronts, and you're already having to make cuts in the force and I
:31:08. > :31:11.understand during discussion with the Justice Department about a
:31:12. > :31:14.further ?10 million of saving. Can you do the job properly with the
:31:15. > :31:19.resources you have? We are getting to the point we are getting
:31:20. > :31:22.stretched thinly. We took ?47 million out of the budget for this
:31:23. > :31:26.financial year, and because of the lack of consensus on welfare reform,
:31:27. > :31:30.a further ?15 million had to come out. The Department of Justice has
:31:31. > :31:34.asked us to look at another ?10 million because of an overspend on
:31:35. > :31:38.health. That will have an impact on service delivery and an impact on
:31:39. > :31:42.staffing levels and officer numbers. I need to flag that up with the
:31:43. > :31:45.politicians, but we will do the best with what we've got to keep people
:31:46. > :31:51.safe. That is what we are here for. Four days into the job, no regrets?
:31:52. > :32:10.Not yet. Thanks for joining us tonight.
:32:11. > :32:15.Did you take anything polyps -- positive out of this, Alex Glashan
:32:16. > :32:17.observing the body language there were times when it was
:32:18. > :32:23.extraordinarily difficult to believe that these five men represented the
:32:24. > :32:26.five parties. It is not simply a case that they don't like each
:32:27. > :32:30.other, they clearly don't trust each other and don't have a common vision
:32:31. > :32:34.and don't see anything in common. When you ask Jonathan about whether
:32:35. > :32:37.the institutions were in jeopardy, they might be not from what is
:32:38. > :32:44.happening tonight, but because audiences watching this will be so
:32:45. > :32:46.disconnecting, so disengaged, so disbelieving in the capability of
:32:47. > :32:50.these guys are providing government or any solution. They are the people
:32:51. > :32:54.switching up from politics, not the other way round. Has the political
:32:55. > :32:58.temperature just been raised dramatically since lunchtime today?
:32:59. > :33:01.It is undeniable that the temperature has certainly been
:33:02. > :33:08.raised. I think the chief constable was being quite measured and trying
:33:09. > :33:12.not to be alarmist for understandable reasons, but I think
:33:13. > :33:16.we saw an extraordinary thing today. I don't think anyone is surprised
:33:17. > :33:20.that the Unionist parties ended up walking out of the process, but to
:33:21. > :33:27.walk out of one that addresses flags and parades on the second morning
:33:28. > :33:31.was as an extraordinary thing. I had a sense of quite an extraordinary
:33:32. > :33:34.thing happening at the moment, not only throwing the toys out of the
:33:35. > :33:39.pram, but in the same movement almost threw the baby out with the
:33:40. > :33:41.bath water. A quite extraordinary occurrence. Alex, you come from the
:33:42. > :33:43.unionist background a quite extraordinary occurrence. Alex, you
:33:44. > :33:46.come from the unionist background and you come from the unionist
:33:47. > :33:49.background a new word for the UUP, so do you see the distinction
:33:50. > :33:53.between the commission and the desire to walk out of talks and
:33:54. > :33:57.discussion about where we go now as far as devolution is concerned? Is
:33:58. > :34:02.there a link? There shouldn't be a link because the Unionist wanted
:34:03. > :34:08.these talks. Peter Robinson said they wanted them. I am not
:34:09. > :34:11.surprised. I'm a pessimist, so I'm not surprised they walked out, but
:34:12. > :34:15.I'm surprised they walked out so quickly and did not give it a day
:34:16. > :34:19.and discuss the issue separately and maybe bring in and Henderson or the
:34:20. > :34:23.chief constable, talk it over before making the decision, but what is
:34:24. > :34:29.interesting is that this is a return to the Unionist forum of January 20
:34:30. > :34:32.13th which at the PU page, and that broke down in a matter of months
:34:33. > :34:35.when they were tearing strips out of each other and after a general
:34:36. > :34:38.election they are back to the same, circling the wagons and assume
:34:39. > :34:45.everyone is against them. It's stupid. Some commentators are
:34:46. > :34:48.suggesting that this is part of a choreography that will lead us to
:34:49. > :34:52.the collapsing of the institutions. Some people absolutely disagree, but
:34:53. > :34:56.some people say they are getting the bits of the jigsaw to start to fit
:34:57. > :35:00.together to reach that conclusion. Is that a possibility? You have to
:35:01. > :35:07.concede it is a possibility. Jonathan Bell was at pains not to
:35:08. > :35:16.say that the commission was broken. The institutions were in danger. He
:35:17. > :35:23.didn't use the world -- word imperilled. No, but he said there
:35:24. > :35:27.was some issue. It was interesting to hear Jonathan Bell talking about
:35:28. > :35:28.the line repeated frequently, that this is about a six minute walk down
:35:29. > :35:35.a row. We need to leave it there. That's it from The View
:35:36. > :35:37.for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics
:35:38. > :35:40.at 11.35pm here on BBC1. One, two, three, four,
:35:41. > :36:10.here they come. Patton strikes, it's there!
:36:11. > :36:13.Oh, what a goal! Sturridge is in the middle.
:36:14. > :36:19.Good ball from Rooney. Away we go, and it's a good start
:36:20. > :36:25.from Hamilton.