:00:00. > :00:25.Is the DUP in rebellion against its leader, or has Peter Robinson
:00:26. > :00:41.re-asserted his grip and thwarted a possible challenge to his position?
:00:42. > :00:44.It is clear that some babe or so puffed up by their own importance.
:00:45. > :00:49.-- some people . But with dire warnings
:00:50. > :00:51.of financial meltdown looming, what will it take to get the
:00:52. > :00:54.Stormont train back on its tracks? We hear the Finance Minister's
:00:55. > :00:56.solution to the difficulties confronting
:00:57. > :00:58.his party and the Executive. And with talk of crisis
:00:59. > :01:00.and collapse, can other parties come Plus, the fallout from the Scottish
:01:01. > :01:13.independence referendum rumbles on. If we don't give the English affair
:01:14. > :01:16.voice, there would be a union, England will say enough. To save the
:01:17. > :01:17.union, they must be devolution for everyone.
:01:18. > :01:19.And familiar faces in the new-look Commentators' Corner.
:01:20. > :01:20.Tonight I'm joined by Professor Cathy Gormley-Heenan
:01:21. > :01:24.And you can, of course, join the debate on Twitter -
:01:25. > :01:34.There was a Twitter torrent of support
:01:35. > :01:37.for Peter Robinson this afternoon from DUP MLAs and MPs after renewed
:01:38. > :01:42.That speculation was fuelled by Edwin Poots the day
:01:43. > :01:45.after he'd been replaced as Health Minister in a major reshuffle.
:01:46. > :01:48.And the First Minister didn't hold back today branding some, un-named,
:01:49. > :01:51.party members "lemmings" for causing disunity.
:01:52. > :01:53.Our Political Correspondent, Gareth Gordon, has been reviewing
:01:54. > :02:08.The DUP prides itself on an image of being a happy family. But like all
:02:09. > :02:14.families, especially one that is getting bigger, there are records.
:02:15. > :02:25.It is just that those on the outside already -- hardly get to hear of
:02:26. > :02:31.them. That is changing. This week, Peter Robinson decided to rearrange
:02:32. > :02:35.the furniture, showing who is boss. I am here taking three meals a day,
:02:36. > :02:40.happy in the job I'm doing. The message did not get through to with
:02:41. > :02:54.one -- to one who has reason to be so. That is public knowledge.
:02:55. > :03:00.It is generally taken to be less than a year. Edwin Poots was slapped
:03:01. > :03:07.down. Though it seems that silence is no longer golden. After
:03:08. > :03:08.Tuesday's reshuffle, a few more people have not been silent. But it
:03:09. > :03:12.is not the DUP way, is it? Gareth Gordon posing that question
:03:13. > :03:24.and Peter Robinson answered it It is clear there are some people
:03:25. > :03:27.who are so puffed up by their own importance, people who have the
:03:28. > :03:31.strategic vision of a lemming and we have to deal with those people and
:03:32. > :03:37.they will not take us of course, it is clear where the party's direction
:03:38. > :03:46.is and the party has choices to make. It can follow people down the
:03:47. > :03:53.road to destruction, let's have a proper analysis of what was had.
:03:54. > :03:57.Some people in the media want to stir stuff up and there is a small
:03:58. > :04:01.group of people who want to whisper behind backs and try and stir things
:04:02. > :04:02.with the media. The party will deal with them.
:04:03. > :04:04.Peter Robinson in robust form this morning.
:04:05. > :04:07.So, difficulities within the DUP and division around the Executive table
:04:08. > :04:13.The DUP's Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton, is with me.
:04:14. > :04:16.So Peter Robinson now concedes, at last, that there is a rump of
:04:17. > :04:25.malcontents in the party stirring up disunity who need to be dealt with.
:04:26. > :04:32.It is clear there was a small number in the party who are seeking to
:04:33. > :04:37.divide the party. What is more clear now is that there is a huge amount
:04:38. > :04:40.of overwhelming support for Peter Robinson remaining as leader of the
:04:41. > :04:45.party, not just through the general election, but the assembly election
:04:46. > :04:50.and beyond. Why'd you think the individuals who are set upon causing
:04:51. > :04:55.disunity are acting the fold? As a matter for them to explain, but what
:04:56. > :04:58.is clear, particularly given the difficult times were written in
:04:59. > :05:02.Northern Ireland, with pressure is respective of the budget and getting
:05:03. > :05:08.a budget agreed with the need to reform the institutions, and Pete
:05:09. > :05:14.has been clear about that. We all come onto that. Peter is absolutely
:05:15. > :05:19.the right way to lead -- right person to leave. Quite damaging to
:05:20. > :05:23.him as a leader and damaging for the DUP to hear about puffed up
:05:24. > :05:30.lemmings, full of their own self-importance you have to be dealt
:05:31. > :05:35.with. It is not the way the DUP does its business, we are apart that
:05:36. > :05:40.prides itself on being a family. You were. It isn't helpful that people
:05:41. > :05:46.are talking quietly and buy-backs and trying to undermine the leader.
:05:47. > :05:48.What is absolutely clear today is that there is overwhelming support
:05:49. > :05:52.for Peter Robinson and the direction he is taking the party and it is
:05:53. > :06:00.clear that that is where the party, whether MP or MLA, that is where
:06:01. > :06:03.they want to go. What if he hasn't put the rebellion down? What if his
:06:04. > :06:11.comments have wounded people like Edwin Poots and perhaps others and
:06:12. > :06:15.their wants to fight back? I think it is clear today, at the risk of
:06:16. > :06:20.repeating myself, at the amount of support that has been offered from
:06:21. > :06:29.every level in the party for Peter Robinson, that his position is
:06:30. > :06:35.secure . It looks a bit manufactured. Over 20
:06:36. > :06:42.MPs and MLAs hooting their support for Peter Robinson.
:06:43. > :06:44.Jim Allister was amused by what he saw
:06:45. > :06:48.as 'orchestrated tweets of undying loyalty to 'Our Dear Leader''.
:06:49. > :07:01.People have wanted to going behind Peter and show clearly, people
:07:02. > :07:04.wanted to show the wider world who backs and people wanted to show
:07:05. > :07:10.those in the media, in the wider world that they also supported him
:07:11. > :07:14.and they want to take us forward. Let me ask you finally about the two
:07:15. > :07:18.tweets we saw from Edwin Poots and Paul Givan. They seem to be going
:07:19. > :07:23.through the motions. They do not make it clear that they personally
:07:24. > :07:29.support Peter Robinson. They say he has a mandate. It is clear from what
:07:30. > :07:34.has been said today that Peter Robinson has the support of the
:07:35. > :07:36.party. People in the party at all levels wants to see Peter Robinson
:07:37. > :07:44.take us through the difficult times ahead. I2-mac you think yes button
:07:45. > :07:51.to the sword? -- he has put them -- they have put into the sword. He is
:07:52. > :07:59.taking the party forward. You wanted to table a paper
:08:00. > :08:02.taking the party forward. You wanted difficult the budgetary situation is
:08:03. > :08:10.and that was dealt under any other business.
:08:11. > :08:10.I was upset that it was not taken, because I
:08:11. > :08:15.I was upset that it was not taken, system and it was the best guess
:08:16. > :08:18.that we can ensure that we live within our budget. People know our
:08:19. > :08:22.budget is under pressure, that is within our budget. People know our
:08:23. > :08:25.compounded by the fact we have two page ?87 million in welfare reform
:08:26. > :08:30.compounded by the fact we have two penalties and a paper I put forward
:08:31. > :08:37.was the best guess about not spending the block grant. But it
:08:38. > :08:41.wasn't discussed? You have to put the question to Sinn Fein, they
:08:42. > :08:49.refused to... I want to... I wanted the issue discussed. It was welcomed
:08:50. > :08:55.by other members. They respected there was a need to have a proper,
:08:56. > :08:59.sensible adult conversation about a serious issue. We hope to Sinn Fein
:09:00. > :09:05.would be here, but unfortunately nobody has been available from the
:09:06. > :09:06.party to join us. When you talk to people in the party, they make it
:09:07. > :09:11.clear that you did not people in the party, they make it
:09:12. > :09:15.niceties and protocols as you are meant to table papers like that in
:09:16. > :09:22.advance, and I think this one was tabled yesterday. It was, but what
:09:23. > :09:29.most people have installed you is that -- have installed you is that
:09:30. > :09:34.what was in the paper is what was outlined a fortnight ago. It was
:09:35. > :09:37.contained within a briefing that was given to members of the
:09:38. > :09:40.contained within a briefing that was last Thursday. This is information
:09:41. > :09:45.that the Deputy 1st Minster and everybody else in Sinn Fein have had
:09:46. > :09:52.from a fortnight ago. What's the Deputy Minister say? He said that he
:09:53. > :09:56.would have to look at it, but that is what he said today. It
:09:57. > :10:00.underscores the reality that we understand, that he is not in charge
:10:01. > :10:05.of his party, that it is Gerry Adams was calling the shots and saying
:10:06. > :10:10.Martin McGuinness, who wanted to do a deal, cannot move forward and show
:10:11. > :10:17.leadership. So we have leadership problems into parties now? I think
:10:18. > :10:21.it is clear that Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland, it is Sinn Fein in
:10:22. > :10:28.Dublin who is called the shots. It is a nice sound bite, but you don't
:10:29. > :10:32.have any evidence. It is clear from comments that have been made in the
:10:33. > :10:36.last 24 hours from Gerry Adams that he is asserting his authority and
:10:37. > :10:39.that is putting above the interests of Northern Ireland the interest of
:10:40. > :10:44.people in the Republic of Ireland, that is very damaging. It is a
:10:45. > :10:49.situation well if we do not cut our spending quickly, the risk every day
:10:50. > :10:53.that passes that we will overspend our budget. If that is the case,
:10:54. > :10:56.what happens is the Treasury takes the money we overspend of our budget
:10:57. > :11:00.for next year for stop and next year's budget is already under
:11:01. > :11:05.pressure. Are you saying that Gerry Adams is trying to undermine the
:11:06. > :11:12.leadership of Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland? I think you're it has
:11:13. > :11:19.leathery pulled the rug from under Martin McGuinness on welfare reform.
:11:20. > :11:25.Quickly, or to ask you about details on Ian Paisley's memorial service.
:11:26. > :11:30.What form will that take? Will it be a political or religious events? It
:11:31. > :11:34.is a family event and it has been run by the Paisley family and I
:11:35. > :11:38.think it would be an opportunity for those of us who respected and loved
:11:39. > :11:41.Doctor Paisley to show our respect for him and to show our comfort to
:11:42. > :11:46.the family as they grieve his passing. I will certainly be there
:11:47. > :11:50.and I think many from the party will be there to show our respect on the
:11:51. > :11:58.passing of a great man. Thank you very much indeed.
:11:59. > :12:02.For now, thank you. Joining me are the Alliance leader David Ford,
:12:03. > :12:07.Dolores Kelly and the TUV leader Jim Allister. We did have Sinn Fein to
:12:08. > :12:12.provide a representative for the discussion but we were told no-one
:12:13. > :12:16.was available. David Ford, first the biggest financial crisis to face
:12:17. > :12:21.Stormont was under any other business. Which is not surely, the
:12:22. > :12:25.way that we should be treating it It is not. The point that I made back
:12:26. > :12:31.in July, we weren't treating it properly. We needed to have a proper
:12:32. > :12:35.mature discussion among executive minister, we had a briefing a week
:12:36. > :12:38.ago, it was clear the general area where things had to be dealt with,
:12:39. > :12:43.but we simply couldn't get agreement round the table to have that
:12:44. > :12:47.discussion properly. That bit of the fault is almost entirely with Sinn
:12:48. > :12:51.Fein, because other parties were prepared to discuss it. We went
:12:52. > :12:55.there intending to have a serious discussion expecting to have a
:12:56. > :13:01.serious discussion, hoping to have a serious discussion. Dolores Kelly
:13:02. > :13:07.were you interested in a serious discussion about this major issue? I
:13:08. > :13:11.was at a public meeting where they are faced with the closure of a
:13:12. > :13:15.college. There was an angry set of parents, there are many young people
:13:16. > :13:18.in temporary fixed contract jobs so there is a lot of uncertainty round
:13:19. > :13:23.welfare reform and the possibility of cuts never mind the redundancies
:13:24. > :13:27.that will happen right across the public sector so I think it is
:13:28. > :13:30.incumbent on all parties to have rational mature debate and
:13:31. > :13:34.conversation and have all the facts laid out for us, so we can discuss
:13:35. > :13:37.the best way forward in the interests of everyone in Northern
:13:38. > :13:44.Ireland. Why did your party not support the suggestion made by David
:13:45. > :13:48.Ford and Steven that you clear your diary, come back tonight, tomorrow
:13:49. > :13:54.until the matter is resolved? I don't think it a case of clearing
:13:55. > :13:59.your diary. Why not? Well, we could look at clearing the diary, our
:14:00. > :14:04.party is, our party... Why didn't you support that? Our party is on
:14:05. > :14:07.record at wanting to look at everything that is in dispute in
:14:08. > :14:12.Northern Ireland, not only in relation to the budget but on the
:14:13. > :14:15.wider issues about settling down, fissioning the failed relationships
:14:16. > :14:21.round the executive table. -- fixing and have the two Governments in the
:14:22. > :14:24.room. So, you know, the SDLP has taken the mature approach, taken
:14:25. > :14:30.risks over the many year, to find the best way forward. All right. Jim
:14:31. > :14:34.Allister, it is easy to be critical from the outside. This is a complex
:14:35. > :14:37.issue. There are differences between the various parties sitting round
:14:38. > :14:42.the table and that is why, as yet, there has been no resolution to this
:14:43. > :14:46.difficult issue discovered? The reason there is no resolution is
:14:47. > :14:50.because the system of Government is unworkable. Anywhere elsewhere you
:14:51. > :14:53.have a coalition there is a basic thread of agreement between the
:14:54. > :14:59.parties before they tern Government. In Northern Ireland because of the
:15:00. > :15:03.import of mandatory coalition, where every party of any reasonable size
:15:04. > :15:07.is automatically guaranteed a place in Government, they don't have to
:15:08. > :15:10.agree thinking. That is for reasons to do with the history of Northern
:15:11. > :15:15.Ireland. Reasons that are strangling good Government. This is a totally
:15:16. > :15:18.failed and failing system. They are making it difficult, does that not
:15:19. > :15:22.mean the politicians have to redouble their efforts to make it
:15:23. > :15:26.work? No it means we have to fix it. The First Minister told us they had
:15:27. > :15:31.a fair deal for Northern Ireland, they had fixed all the, damage and
:15:32. > :15:35.the Belfast agreement, now it admits the system is unfit for purpose. Now
:15:36. > :15:38.last week we had the Scottish referendum. The Prime Minister came
:15:39. > :15:43.out and said there must be constitutional reform. Yes, there
:15:44. > :15:47.must. But where he needs to start in Northern Ireland is restoring to
:15:48. > :15:50.Northern Ireland the democratic imperatives that everyone else has,
:15:51. > :15:55.the right to have an opposition, the right to change your Government.
:15:56. > :15:59.Unless and until we get a system based on that where you a coalition
:16:00. > :16:03.of the willing, who will deal with the issue, and those who aren't
:16:04. > :16:05.willing will be the opposition, unless and until we get to that
:16:06. > :16:10.situation, Government in Northern Ireland is not going to work. And
:16:11. > :16:15.here we are, in a situation with deep, deep, financial crisis, and a
:16:16. > :16:19.Finance Minister who can't get his paper on the executive table,
:16:20. > :16:22.because of the Sinn Fein veto. Of course Sinn Fein aren't in
:16:23. > :16:25.Government to give anyone in good Government. They don't believe in
:16:26. > :16:28.Northern Ireland. No surprise that they are strangling Government at
:16:29. > :16:33.every opportunity. OK. Simon Hamilton do you want to come back
:16:34. > :16:37.in? It will not probably be a huge surprise to hear you Jim saying the
:16:38. > :16:40.it is the way the First Minister is handling the situation, it is the
:16:41. > :16:43.strangulated form of Government in Northern Ireland, rather than
:16:44. > :16:48.specifically Sinn Fein's refusal to o kiss the issue of welfare repom. I
:16:49. > :16:52.find it amusing when Jim criticises the system. I can remember in 2007
:16:53. > :16:59.Jim wanted to wait another six months. That is a lie. And Jim would
:17:00. > :17:03.have us, and I accept Peter Robinson said the system isn't fit for
:17:04. > :17:07.purpose, we have done many good things in Stormont over the last
:17:08. > :17:13.seven year, it does need reform but it is better than what Jim's option
:17:14. > :17:23.is which is a return... It is not working. OK... It is not fit for
:17:24. > :17:26.purpose. It is not time to find an alternative? It is not Jim who is
:17:27. > :17:30.suggesting that, Peter Robinson suggested what we need is a set
:17:31. > :17:34.piece negotiations where this is the issue that is on the table and that
:17:35. > :17:39.we all the parties sit and negotiate a better way forward. It has served
:17:40. > :17:44.us not perfectly but for the last number of years and we need
:17:45. > :18:19.something new to Mo forward on. It is fit for purpose. They need to...
:18:20. > :18:24.you think we should be doing to put our best foot forward. There are
:18:25. > :18:27.institutional issue, the Good Friday agreement set up arrangements to
:18:28. > :18:31.move away from the past. It fulfilled that purpose. It is not
:18:32. > :18:37.providing good Government now. That is why the Alliance has been
:18:38. > :18:37.talking... Is it put for purpose It is for
:18:38. > :18:43.talking... Is it put for purpose It That is why we need to change that.
:18:44. > :18:47.But we have a much more pressing need, which is to resolve the
:18:48. > :18:51.financial issues and that requires people to get real about where the
:18:52. > :18:55.economy is, to deal with the issues that face us and to not run away
:18:56. > :19:02.from them and not push them out of line. Do you pull the plug? How much
:19:03. > :19:07.longer can we him. On like this? That is an issue which will have to
:19:08. > :19:10.be faced rapt rapidly if we start to get letters from the Treasury. I
:19:11. > :19:12.know what question do in the Department of Justice, I know what
:19:13. > :19:16.we have done over Department of Justice, I know what
:19:17. > :19:19.years managing a difficult budget. We have
:19:20. > :19:22.years managing a difficult budget. protected frontline services but if
:19:23. > :19:26.others are not prepared to live up to things we won't be able do the
:19:27. > :19:31.kind of job I want to do. Dolores Kelly do politicians need to face up
:19:32. > :19:35.to the reality unless this can be fixed and fixed quickly, actually,
:19:36. > :19:38.we would be better not having devolved authority in Northern
:19:39. > :19:42.Ireland? I don't accept that, I think devolution works better for
:19:43. > :19:47.the people. How would you fix the shambles? Can I reflect and remind
:19:48. > :19:49.people, four years ago, three-and-a-half years ago at the
:19:50. > :19:54.start of the mandate Peter Robinson in a speech to the assembly said
:19:55. > :19:57.that no more them and us, that this executive would be judged on
:19:58. > :20:02.delivery and it is some time we delivered for the public. It's the
:20:03. > :20:07.public's interest that we must put before party interests. Tell me what
:20:08. > :20:11.that means in policy terms? You won't get anything anybody to
:20:12. > :20:17.disagree with that. The question is, how do you convert that into real
:20:18. > :20:23.politics and political progress? We need to start dealing with some of
:20:24. > :20:27.the tough issues. The SDLP can talk about it. Other parties have to
:20:28. > :20:31.can't for themselves. And I note they are missing this evening. The
:20:32. > :20:35.SDLP has not run away from the tough decision and we put the people
:20:36. > :20:41.first. We have not dealt with sectarianism and about a shared
:20:42. > :20:43.future and working together. As Mark Durkan said it's the ugly
:20:44. > :20:50.scaffolding of the Belfast agreement you need to deal with. The SDLP has
:20:51. > :20:55.walked away from that and wants to sustain that cannot work, will never
:20:56. > :20:58.work and subject the people of Northern Ireland to a system
:20:59. > :21:02.incapable of working. Let me ask Simon about that scaffolding. Is it
:21:03. > :21:07.time to take it down and actually look at building for what it is?
:21:08. > :21:12.Absolutely it needs to be taken down. We have been saying that for
:21:13. > :21:17.over a decade, that while the structures we have had have served a
:21:18. > :21:20.purpose for a period of time, they were not the long-term
:21:21. > :21:23.settlementment we need to move on in terms of the structures. You can't
:21:24. > :21:29.agree on the process of how you are going to look at that scaffolding.
:21:30. > :21:32.Your party leader met Theresa Villiers today. She can't get all
:21:33. > :21:36.the parties round the table to discuss the outstanding issue, there
:21:37. > :21:41.is no sign of any progress on flags, parades and the past. I have heard
:21:42. > :21:46.from Sinn Fein saying they think the system is unviable as well. So I
:21:47. > :21:50.think there is a growing consensus the structure isn't working Nobody
:21:51. > :21:57.can agree on what to do about it I think we will make progress in
:21:58. > :22:01.terms, as you have identified Peter Robinson has identified them. And I
:22:02. > :22:06.think it is something that is imminent and we can make progress
:22:07. > :22:09.that will ensure that devolution can work in Northern Ireland. What about
:22:10. > :22:13.the Commission of inquiry? That is something again which we have been
:22:14. > :22:17.discussing and we would encourage the Secretary of State to move
:22:18. > :22:22.quickly. Sinn Fein don't want to take part in it It needs to happen,
:22:23. > :22:26.it is something the media have been calling for. I don't think the media
:22:27. > :22:32.have been calling for it The Belfast telegraph. That is one newspaper.
:22:33. > :22:35.The media doesn't make policy commands It called for the praise
:22:36. > :22:40.commission itself. So I think a committee of inquiry is the right
:22:41. > :22:43.way to gone and the Secretary of State should move forward quickly.
:22:44. > :22:47.We must leave it there. Time has beaten us. Thank you very up many
:22:48. > :22:50.for joining us. Here is is a question, should Northern Ireland
:22:51. > :22:53.MPs be allowed to vote in Westminster on English only matters?
:22:54. > :22:57.That is one of the pressing questions facing us now the
:22:58. > :23:07.referendum in Scotland is over. Our political correspondent has been
:23:08. > :23:11.investigating. No, 19,036.
:23:12. > :23:15.Scotland gave its answer, but now the Scottish question has given way
:23:16. > :23:20.to the English question. I have long believed that a crucial
:23:21. > :23:25.part missing from this national discussion is England. We have heard
:23:26. > :23:30.the voice of Scotland, and now the millions of voices of England must
:23:31. > :23:35.also be heard. Those English voices are now
:23:36. > :23:40.demanding English votes for English laws. I tell you something, if we
:23:41. > :23:45.don't give the enlast lib a fair voice there won't be a union.
:23:46. > :23:49.England will say enough is enough. We have to have devolution that
:23:50. > :23:56.works for everybody. The vast majority of MPs are English. 533.
:23:57. > :24:01.There is 59 from Scotland, 40 from Wales and 18 from Northern Ireland.
:24:02. > :24:08.The notion of a two tyre chamber is controversial. -- tier. Our high
:24:09. > :24:13.feeling MPs are used to go to London to vote on UK-wide leg lakes, there
:24:14. > :24:18.are calls there shouldn't be allowed to vote own English matters. They
:24:19. > :24:25.say that is reasonable but it is not straight forward. Take for example
:24:26. > :24:29.the issue of Heathrow expansion. That has a direct impact on my
:24:30. > :24:33.constituency. And in terms of the economy. Yet it would appear on the
:24:34. > :24:36.surface to be an England and Wales question, it is a question that
:24:37. > :24:42.affects the whole of the UK in terms of how we connect to the rest of the
:24:43. > :24:47.world. How do you define English only legislation? There are lots of
:24:48. > :24:52.grey area, take for example if there was to be a changes in welfare,
:24:53. > :24:58.proposed for England only. Given that the Treasury has to pay for
:24:59. > :25:03.those changes, and if the changes weren't reciprocated in Scotland,
:25:04. > :25:06.Northern Ireland, or Wales, then there will be a consequence for
:25:07. > :25:11.Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales any way, so the argument would be
:25:12. > :25:19.should we not have some say in the debate on that? Order, order!
:25:20. > :25:24.Indeed, there are significant concerns about how to monitor or
:25:25. > :25:29.police the system. It would be like on a driving license where we have
:25:30. > :25:33.the different categories of vehicle, they would have to check on who is
:25:34. > :25:36.allowed to vote on what. It is is a debate that won't go away. It is
:25:37. > :25:42.leading to calls for wider reform, of how we are governed.
:25:43. > :25:47.What I can't understand is why people who are now campaigning very
:25:48. > :25:51.hard to stop elected members in the Commons to vote on matters seem to
:25:52. > :25:54.be content to have a lot of unelected members from all over the
:25:55. > :25:58.place the the House of Lords deciding legislation, so if you are
:25:59. > :26:02.going to move to change and reform things, in the House of Commons, I
:26:03. > :26:05.think it makes the case for reform or even abolition in terms of the
:26:06. > :26:11.House of Lords. Some say the solution is giving cities greater
:26:12. > :26:15.powers. Others argue for an English assembly separate from Parliament.
:26:16. > :26:20.Leaving MPs to deal with issues such as defence and foreign affair, but
:26:21. > :26:23.even that has its critics. I don't think that there is a case for an
:26:24. > :26:28.English Parliament, because if you have an English Parliament it seems
:26:29. > :26:32.to me you have to have a separate English executive with an English
:26:33. > :26:35.First Minister, then you will have a UK-wide Prime Minister, and they
:26:36. > :26:43.could be drawn from different party, and that would be a recipe I suspect
:26:44. > :26:48.for conflict, disarray, confusion. There are warnings we could lose out
:26:49. > :26:55.financially. If political reform leads to change on how the UK money
:26:56. > :27:00.pot is shared out With a low taxable base, with you know, an
:27:01. > :27:04.underdeveloped private sector, that could lead to the gradual further
:27:05. > :27:09.improve Irishment of Northern Ireland. I think, I am not being a
:27:10. > :27:12.Cassandra here, but that is a risk. There are opportunities though if
:27:13. > :27:18.the Commons moves to a two tier system. Perhaps more time for our
:27:19. > :27:22.MPs to raise and debate issues, one thing is certain, the Scottish
:27:23. > :27:26.referendum has changed things utterly.
:27:27. > :27:30.The Northern Ireland-born MP for Vauxhall who has made it very
:27:31. > :27:40.You don't think non-English MPs should vote on English-only matters?
:27:41. > :27:56.I think English representing English constituencies, but I think there is
:27:57. > :28:01.a principle involved. This has been an issue for some time, the Scottish
:28:02. > :28:03.referendum has really highlighted it, because immediately before they
:28:04. > :28:11.were offered extra powers and of course immediately those of us in
:28:12. > :28:14.England who have seen in the past certain legislation go through
:28:15. > :28:19.specifically because -- because of the votes of Scottish MPs when it
:28:20. > :28:26.does not affect them at all. Foundation Trusts for example. That
:28:27. > :28:32.went through because of Scottish Labour MPs. We had no say in the
:28:33. > :28:38.health service in Scotland, so I think I can understand the feeling
:28:39. > :28:41.of some Members of Parliament for Northern Ireland or Wales or
:28:42. > :28:45.Scotland who will feel maybe that they would like to be voting on
:28:46. > :28:49.everything, but at the moment the reality is they don't. Quite a few
:28:50. > :28:52.don't vote when it comes to an issue that does not affect the area.
:28:53. > :28:54.But as we saw in Martina Purdy's package,
:28:55. > :29:05.You heard people saying there are issues that could be at first glance
:29:06. > :29:12.English only, but they are quite congregated and have ramifications
:29:13. > :29:16.asked in Northern Ireland, for example Heathrow Airport. There will
:29:17. > :29:20.always be difficulties, but I think there is a clear principle that
:29:21. > :29:23.obviously the Clerk of the House and Chief Executive of Commons or the
:29:24. > :29:30.Speaker of the House comments or however the format of the was
:29:31. > :29:33.arrived at, there'll be an issue. No one is saying it should happen
:29:34. > :29:41.tomorrow, but I think we want to see an acceptance by all the members of
:29:42. > :29:46.Pollard in different parts of the UK that they recognise this is a real
:29:47. > :29:50.problem. -- Members of Parliament. I just don't think the way to do it is
:29:51. > :29:54.to set up an assembly that will go on for a very long time, cost a lot
:29:55. > :30:01.of money, just to discuss the issue. We may need it later. Would you not
:30:02. > :30:05.be concerned. You busy have a good relationship with a lot of Northern
:30:06. > :30:09.Ireland MPs. Would you not be concerned that people from here
:30:10. > :30:16.would be second-class MPs? We would two tiers of MP.
:30:17. > :30:26.I don't really accept that as a 2 tier issue, some of them will see
:30:27. > :30:31.its like that, but some recognise they won't vote on some issues that
:30:32. > :30:36.don't affect their constituents. But there are ways around it. When you
:30:37. > :30:41.look at it, something like 522 English MPs representing English
:30:42. > :30:48.constituencies, 100 and whatever it is 17 from others, we have an
:30:49. > :30:52.English Parliament a lot of the time in terms of numbers and all we would
:30:53. > :30:55.have to do is for certain issues, those people would not vote. The
:30:56. > :31:04.Scottish house arrests have done that all along, they don't vote on
:31:05. > :31:07.English only issue. -- Scottish Nationalists. Constitutional changes
:31:08. > :31:15.will come as a result of the Scottish referendum and will affect
:31:16. > :31:19.us. Some people who take your position also take the view that
:31:20. > :31:20.there needs to be an English Parliament.
:31:21. > :31:22.Is that not the logical conclusion to your argument?
:31:23. > :31:24.Then would we have an English Executive and an
:31:25. > :31:33.I am not in favour. There are some people, but I do not think an
:31:34. > :31:41.English parliament will happen. It would be ludicrous to set up another
:31:42. > :31:44.machinery of Government. It would needed to separate place to meet, we
:31:45. > :31:51.have a system there, we just need small changes. There will be
:31:52. > :31:58.acceptance that the changes needed, but people will come to it
:31:59. > :32:01.gradually. There is a huge constitutional debates taking place
:32:02. > :32:07.and you have been sitting in the wings watching our politicians
:32:08. > :32:11.debating key issues. Flags, parades, talks and the failure to agree on a
:32:12. > :32:15.budget. There does seem to be a pressing need for somebody to put
:32:16. > :32:26.that right. I know you come here a lot, but what do you make... With
:32:27. > :32:30.seemingly seem to be looking into a bit of an abyss. On well for
:32:31. > :32:36.reform, and people would be horrified and
:32:37. > :32:43.people have got used to certain things, but I do think that it is
:32:44. > :32:48.something that will have to be addressed and addressed urgently. If
:32:49. > :32:53.there is a Labour Government in next May, they will not be coming out and
:32:54. > :32:57.handing out more money for welfare. This has to be sorted and it has to
:32:58. > :33:02.be sorted soon. On all of the other things that I listen to, ultimately
:33:03. > :33:09.I think whoever said it was right, the whole setup was to bring peace
:33:10. > :33:14.and was to get a particular solving of a particular problem. We have had
:33:15. > :33:20.a number of years of fact, now we need an opposition, we need
:33:21. > :33:22.normal,', politics in Northern Ireland.
:33:23. > :33:25.Let's hear what our commentators make
:33:26. > :33:28.Settling into their new home are Professor Cathy
:33:29. > :33:37.Congratulations on your elevation, Cathy, and your new title. We are
:33:38. > :33:47.all very starstruck. You have written a book about
:33:48. > :33:53.political leadership, I know you have looked at the DUP specifically.
:33:54. > :33:58.How choppy are the waters that Peter Robinson finds himself in? We could
:33:59. > :34:02.have predicted the reshuffle would happen, they tend to happen when a
:34:03. > :34:05.party leader or Prime Minister is facing an internal party challenge,
:34:06. > :34:10.is facing a party leader or Prime Minister is facing an internal party
:34:11. > :34:14.challenge, is facing their personal popularity stakes at a lower level
:34:15. > :34:18.than their parties. I think the internal review seems to suggest
:34:19. > :34:24.that the party sees Peter Robinson's popularity ratings as
:34:25. > :34:29.lower than the parties, hence the reshuffle. To use a type of language
:34:30. > :34:32.that were used to now from the First Minister, is ungracious words like
:34:33. > :34:37.lemmings and so on about ministers that he saw fit to hold office for
:34:38. > :34:44.important portfolios, shows he himself knows he is in a crisis. Do
:34:45. > :34:50.you think he the rebels? I think it was a clever bit of management, but
:34:51. > :34:56.he has underlit today on television. -- undone it. I think the threat is
:34:57. > :35:00.that there is nobody left who can say don't say that. He has
:35:01. > :35:07.apparently surrounded himself with Yasmin who put on these ridiculous
:35:08. > :35:14.media performances. -- yes men. Why has he not righted the ship? This
:35:15. > :35:20.performance on television is what the public will see. They will see
:35:21. > :35:28.our First Minister and leader of our largest party behaving like a bit of
:35:29. > :35:39.idiots. -- a bit of an idiot. The tweets did not help. It'll suggest
:35:40. > :35:44.the lady. Protest too much. The DUP's official Twitter account
:35:45. > :35:45.was putting out twits for MLA's who do not have their own twitter
:35:46. > :35:54.accounts. -- s it is difficult to know how Peter
:35:55. > :36:09.Robinson handles this. He moved to try to quell dissent.
:36:10. > :36:12.Will that be the case or the rumblings will continue? The
:36:13. > :36:15.conversation is about when Peter will continue? The conversation is
:36:16. > :36:24.about when Peter Wilco have long preceded this about any party
:36:25. > :36:29.leaders. -- when Peter will leave. Its long predated what happened over
:36:30. > :36:33.the last few days and it will continue beyond. What is most
:36:34. > :36:35.interesting is that there are two parallel universes here. The
:36:36. > :36:41.conversation tonight was about being here for the next election and the
:36:42. > :36:48.assembly election in complete isolation of the fact that we have a
:36:49. > :36:52.constitution reform commission, what's devolved powers regions will
:36:53. > :36:57.have, that will throw everything in the air and those things are moving
:36:58. > :36:59.past each other. That is likely to make the
:37:00. > :37:05.past each other. That is likely to Ultimately, there is no alternative
:37:06. > :37:10.campaign. I spoke to a senior member of the DUP who said there is no
:37:11. > :37:12.great love for Peter Robinson in the party, but people respect he is the
:37:13. > :37:16.great love for Peter Robinson in the best man for the job at the moment
:37:17. > :37:26.as he is a good should eject finger and he is a good decision maker.
:37:27. > :37:30.-- strategic thinker. The evidence would show that strategic leadership
:37:31. > :37:33.does not equate to knee jerk reactions and statements to the
:37:34. > :37:39.press that uses unparliamentary language like lemmings.
:37:40. > :37:41.You are the Economist, let's talk about the failure to agree the
:37:42. > :37:47.budgets. How serious is the situation? It is
:37:48. > :37:52.serious politically, but to put it in context financially the paper
:37:53. > :37:55.Simon Hamilton was talking about revealed that Stormont is still
:37:56. > :38:00.getting more money this year than was planned when its budget was set
:38:01. > :38:05.up three years ago. There has been mismanagement all around. But this
:38:06. > :38:08.is a problem they have all course and they all course and they only to
:38:09. > :38:15.sit down and work it out. One sentence on the failure to agree It
:38:16. > :38:20.is the same to a -- it is the same as the failure to agree the system
:38:21. > :38:25.of Government. That is it for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics on
:38:26. > :38:32.Sunday. The word of the day was lemmings and
:38:33. > :38:48.it reminded us of a classic 1990s computer game.