:00:11. > :00:12."Possible but not probable" - the words of the Secretary of State
:00:13. > :00:17.On The View tonight, we try to find out just how far away
:00:18. > :00:36.Theresa Villiers hedges her bets on whether or not a Stormont deal
:00:37. > :00:47.No, I'm afraid to say I don't think there's a concluded agreement as
:00:48. > :00:49.yet. I think it's possible we could have a deal next week. Yes.
:00:50. > :00:52.As the Ulster Unionists signal their intent to mark the centenary
:00:53. > :00:56.of the Easter Rising, how should we handle 2016 - a year of potentially
:00:57. > :01:07.It is important for me to hear directly from unionists how they see
:01:08. > :01:10.1916. I want to hear a critique of the Easter Rising.
:01:11. > :01:16.The mosaics falls, unfasten the doors.
:01:17. > :01:20.The DUP wields a Petition of Concern to veto a vote on same sex marriage.
:01:21. > :01:22.So, is it a useful legislative tool - or an
:01:23. > :01:26.And the painting that's outraged the Orange Order.
:01:27. > :01:28.With their art critics' hats on, Alex Kane and Paul McFadden give
:01:29. > :01:44.The Prime Minister's deadline for a deal may have expired last week but
:01:45. > :01:48.the parties are still talking and there's speculation that a Stormont
:01:49. > :02:00.House Mark 2 arrangement could be imminent.
:02:01. > :02:03.I've been speaking to the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers.
:02:04. > :02:04.Is she optimistic a deal can be done?
:02:05. > :02:12.. I think it is possible. I agree we can't go on indefinitely with this
:02:13. > :02:13.process. I think the pressures will grow such
:02:14. > :02:20.process. I think the pressures will difficult beyond next week to get a
:02:21. > :02:25.successful outcome. I think some of the gaps are closing so I approach
:02:26. > :02:28.next week with a degree of hope, partly offered I'm convinced that
:02:29. > :02:32.all of the five parties around the table at the Stormont House talks
:02:33. > :02:36.all want to make this work, so they are all focused on trying to get a
:02:37. > :02:40.solution. You say it is possible, would you go so far as to say
:02:41. > :02:46.probable? I wouldn't go that far, no. So there is no sense that a
:02:47. > :02:53.shadow deal is already in place and the parties are simply selling it to
:02:54. > :02:56.their own members and cross-referencing all of the detail
:02:57. > :02:58.that's in there and the final announcement is going to be made by
:02:59. > :03:02.the Prime Minister next announcement is going to be made by
:03:03. > :03:05.are saying that's wrong, if people are hearing that or thinking that or
:03:06. > :03:10.believing that they're off the money? I'm afraid I wouldn't be that
:03:11. > :03:14.optimistic. As I say, I think what the talks have been going reasonably
:03:15. > :03:18.well in the round table format at Stormont House and I think the
:03:19. > :03:21.parties have been engaging with one another on a bilateral basis with
:03:22. > :03:26.great seriousness. I think genuinely some of the gaps are closing between
:03:27. > :03:31.them, but no I'm afraid to say I don't think there's a concluded
:03:32. > :03:34.agreement as yet. I think as I've said it's possible we could get to
:03:35. > :03:39.that stage but sadly I don't think we are at that stage yet. Forgive me
:03:40. > :03:43.for saying, that's quite pessimistic. I think public
:03:44. > :03:44.for saying, that's quite one of expectation at the moment.
:03:45. > :03:49.There's a belief out there we one of expectation at the moment.
:03:50. > :03:51.seeing the beginning of the choreography that will lead to an
:03:52. > :03:55.announcement on a deal next week. choreography that will lead to an
:03:56. > :04:02.on the jungle drums. choreography that will lead to an
:04:03. > :04:04.Well, I'm encouraged that that's what you're hearing on the network.
:04:05. > :04:09.You are what you're hearing on the network.
:04:10. > :04:12.know than I am and you are not saying that. What I am saying is
:04:13. > :04:14.that the leaders of Northern Ireland's
:04:15. > :04:18.to make this place work. We've been to make this place work. We've been
:04:19. > :04:18.hearing strong signals from the to make this place work. We've been
:04:19. > :04:23.they are prepared to work together to make this place work. We've been
:04:24. > :04:24.and make compromises to deliver a successful outcome. I'm encouraged
:04:25. > :04:32.by that. It sounds like others successful outcome. I'm encouraged
:04:33. > :04:33.as well. Is the veto over national security a continuing sticking
:04:34. > :04:36.point? That's a problem for nationalists in
:04:37. > :04:41.particular. a problem for nationalists in
:04:42. > :04:43.Fein said that's a line in the sand and it needs to be resolved if we
:04:44. > :04:47.can sign up to a and it needs to be resolved if we
:04:48. > :04:53.been movement on that issue? It's a very difficult issue. That's one of
:04:54. > :04:58.the issues where a resolution is, doesn't look easy to achieve. But
:04:59. > :05:01.the issues where a resolution is, are on both sides of the argument we
:05:02. > :05:07.are reflecting intensively to see whether there's a way that we can
:05:08. > :05:11.find a way to make sure that we maintain our duties, crucial duties,
:05:12. > :05:16.to protect national security. If we were to depart from that we would
:05:17. > :05:20.give assistance to terrorists around the world. But we are reflecting
:05:21. > :05:24.very carefully to see if there's a way that we can provide the
:05:25. > :05:27.reassurance that the nationalists are seeking on this. But it is
:05:28. > :05:31.difficult, you are right to highlight that issue. You've said it
:05:32. > :05:35.is difficult. Is there possible there can be a deal without
:05:36. > :05:39.agreement on that is this are there elements on the discussions you
:05:40. > :05:46.might decide to set to one side, to park, to deal with at a later stage?
:05:47. > :05:49.Or does this to be an all encompassing Deal or No Deal at all?
:05:50. > :05:53.I believe it would be best to try and make progress on all the issues
:05:54. > :05:57.on the table. Obviously it would be best to do that. But is it a
:05:58. > :06:02.requirement that that happens? In theory it would be possible to agree
:06:03. > :06:04.on the other matters without reaching consensus on the national
:06:05. > :06:07.security matters, not least because legislation on that doesn't require
:06:08. > :06:11.a legislative consent motion. But I think it is important that we
:06:12. > :06:14.continue to strive to try and find something with which all sides are
:06:15. > :06:19.content. That's an interesting point. Is it your view as Secretary
:06:20. > :06:25.of State that all of the five main parties would have to sign up to any
:06:26. > :06:30.deal? Or could it be a two-party, three-party or four-party deal? We
:06:31. > :06:34.heard from Mike Nesbitt, the Ulster Unionist leader, saying don't assume
:06:35. > :06:39.the Ulster Unionists will sign up to this. We could sit in opposition to
:06:40. > :06:43.it between now and next May. Is that an ideal situation? It is not an
:06:44. > :06:47.ideal situation. My goal is certainly an agreement to which five
:06:48. > :06:53.parties can sign up and receive support from the UK and the Irish
:06:54. > :06:57.Governments but I'm realistic enough to know that degree of successful
:06:58. > :07:03.outcome isn't guaranteed, as I've said. But would it work as a two,
:07:04. > :07:08.three or four-party deal, or does have it to be a five-party deal? I
:07:09. > :07:11.think we could make workable progress with a deal that wasn't
:07:12. > :07:15.necessarily enthusiastically endorsed by all five parties. After
:07:16. > :07:20.all, I think the Stormont House agreement Part 1 was a big step
:07:21. > :07:25.forwards, and yet at least two of the parties were lukewarm in their
:07:26. > :07:32.reception to it. The point is it fell apart. Yes, so we all need to
:07:33. > :07:36.try and make lessons so make sure if there is an agreement next week it
:07:37. > :07:42.will stick, and everyone has that in mind. We are all working hard to try
:07:43. > :07:46.to ensure we avoid the problem that arose in relation to welfare top-ups
:07:47. > :07:50.where Sinn Fein said she didn't understand what they signed up to.
:07:51. > :07:53.We are working to see if we can deliver something that's clear to
:07:54. > :07:58.all concerned. You said a moment ago if there's a deal next week, so it
:07:59. > :08:01.is still in your head that that's a possibility and next week is the
:08:02. > :08:06.time that it needs to happen? I think it is possible that we could
:08:07. > :08:09.have a deal next week, yes. And if the parties don't manage to do that
:08:10. > :08:14.and the clock keeps ticking, what's to stop it running on to Christmas
:08:15. > :08:19.again for the third year in a row? You are actually not in a position
:08:20. > :08:24.to put the operation on it, are you? Well, as everyone knows, it is
:08:25. > :08:27.almost impossible to set dead lines for this kind of process, but
:08:28. > :08:34.there's a recognition around the table in Stormont House that we've
:08:35. > :08:38.been at this process for many weeks. It is time that we started focusing
:08:39. > :08:42.on trying to get to a final agreement. That may not happen next
:08:43. > :08:46.week but I certainly hope it does. You sound a bit more optimistic now
:08:47. > :08:50.than you did six or seven minutes ago, when you sounded quite
:08:51. > :08:54.pessimistic. Have you got a fixed position on this? I'm realistic
:08:55. > :08:59.about the state of the talks. As I've said, I think that the gap
:09:00. > :09:03.between the parties on some key issues has been closing, but there
:09:04. > :09:07.are some very difficult problems still to be resolved. So I approach
:09:08. > :09:10.next week with a degree of hope, because of the commitment the
:09:11. > :09:15.parties have shown to try to make a success of this process. But I think
:09:16. > :09:19.it is still going to be a very difficult task. It could well be
:09:20. > :09:24.that we get to the end of the week and we haven't had a successful
:09:25. > :09:27.outcome. I wonder, are you privy to those private conversations, the
:09:28. > :09:32.bilaterals between the DUP and Sinn Fein? Is it possible that you are
:09:33. > :09:38.being cut out of some of the deal making that's taking place between
:09:39. > :09:43.Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness. Forgive me, but you have
:09:44. > :09:46.a bit part. Having encouraged the parties throughout to be speaking to
:09:47. > :09:50.one another, because as we started this conversation by saying it is
:09:51. > :09:55.Northern Ireland's leaders that are the solution here. They are the ones
:09:56. > :10:00.who are the key to success or failure of this process, so I've
:10:01. > :10:05.been engaged for nine weeks in intensive series of discussions both
:10:06. > :10:07.in a round table format with all parties and individually with
:10:08. > :10:11.bilaterals and tri--laterals with individual parties. It is a
:10:12. > :10:15.combination of both those things which is crucial to delivering a
:10:16. > :10:18.solution. And in the meantime this is set against the backdrop of
:10:19. > :10:26.Northern Ireland's stuttering economy. We had nearly 900 jobs
:10:27. > :10:29.going in Ballymena this week. 50 jobs in West Belfast at a
:10:30. > :10:34.supermarket yesterday. You can understand people being depressed
:10:35. > :10:40.about the political landscape. As depressed frankly about the economic
:10:41. > :10:45.landscape. Well, obviously the announcement by Michelin is a
:10:46. > :10:51.disaster for Ballymena and for all the individuals who work there. I
:10:52. > :10:54.and the Minister Ben Wallace will be working closely with the Northern
:10:55. > :10:59.Ireland Executive to do all that we can to try and provide mitigation
:11:00. > :11:03.for this situation. I think we do need to keep in mind that there is
:11:04. > :11:08.economic recovery across the United Kingdom and that includes Northern
:11:09. > :11:13.Ireland. But it is a terrible blow what's happened to Michelin. It is
:11:14. > :11:17.important that we do all we can to try and mitigate it and in
:11:18. > :11:22.particular I think... Personally I think it is vital that Transport for
:11:23. > :11:27.London keep buying buses from Right Bus and extend the orders there so
:11:28. > :11:32.that we can make sure that the businesses that do remain in the
:11:33. > :11:36.area continue to thrive. I've been in discussions on those matters. I
:11:37. > :11:40.think it is crucial that we do all we can to bring opportunities to
:11:41. > :11:44.those who are facing the loss of their jobs as a result of disastrous
:11:45. > :11:50.news. You've just used the word disaster twice. That's very strong
:11:51. > :11:55.language from a Secretary of State about an announcement of jobs
:11:56. > :11:58.losses. Yes. A disaster? Yes. What's does that say about Tory economic
:11:59. > :12:02.policies in Northern Ireland? Does it not suggest that as the
:12:03. > :12:06.Archbishop of Canterbury said of the weekend, Northern Ireland as far as
:12:07. > :12:11.economics are concerned is a place apart? What we've done is we are as
:12:12. > :12:14.a Government seeking to make the UK the most competitive place that we
:12:15. > :12:19.possibly can for businesses like Michelin. Tell that to people in
:12:20. > :12:23.Ballymena. And that includes reductions in corporation tax. Part
:12:24. > :12:27.of the reason behind the process I'm undertaking in Stormont House is to
:12:28. > :12:31.enable the devolution of corporation tax here to be thrived so rates come
:12:32. > :12:35.down even further. But the reality is that Michelin found it was not
:12:36. > :12:39.competitive compared to its other plants. We need to find a way to
:12:40. > :12:44.deliver of opportunities to those who will be losing their jobs. What,
:12:45. > :12:50.finally, Secretary of State, is your message to people watching this
:12:51. > :12:55.interview tonight who are extremely nervous about a deal not being done
:12:56. > :12:59.or possibly extremely nervous about a deal being done? They don't know
:13:00. > :13:02.quite what to make of what's happening here. They don't like
:13:03. > :13:05.what's happening in terms of the status quo but they know the
:13:06. > :13:10.politicians have got to do better. They are not sure what that means
:13:11. > :13:14.for them. This is a time of great uncertainty for people and you don't
:13:15. > :13:17.know exactly what's likely to happen over the next week to ten days. What
:13:18. > :13:23.do you say to people at home unnerved by the current state of
:13:24. > :13:27.lay? We need be realistic, it is impossible to predict with certainty
:13:28. > :13:34.what outcome of next week will be. The crucial thing is we need to make
:13:35. > :13:38.this place work. The '98 peace settlement was a huge achievement,
:13:39. > :13:42.rightly hailed around the world of a miraculous example of how bitter
:13:43. > :13:48.enemies can work together for the common good. The settlement has been
:13:49. > :13:51.under extreme stress but it was a huge achievement and it is worth
:13:52. > :13:54.saving. That means it is important for Northern Ireland's leadersed to
:13:55. > :14:00.be prepared to make compromises to find a way forward, to give the
:14:01. > :14:03.executive a sustainable budget. Without a sustainable budget,
:14:04. > :14:07.without welfare reform, we don't have workable institutions and we
:14:08. > :14:11.will be inexorably heading for a period of suspension of direct rule
:14:12. > :14:15.which nobody wants to happen. Would that be a disaster, to use your word
:14:16. > :14:19.from earlier, for everybody in Northern Ireland? It would be a
:14:20. > :14:23.serious political setback which is why I'm working hard to avoid it.
:14:24. > :14:26.Obviously suspension has occurred from time to time during the period
:14:27. > :14:30.since the '98 agreement. From that point of view it will be nothing
:14:31. > :14:33.new, but Northern Ireland has come so far. I think the devolved
:14:34. > :14:38.institutions have delivered a huge amount and the right way to run
:14:39. > :14:41.Northern Ireland is locally elected leaders making decisions about this
:14:42. > :14:46.place on behalf and in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland.
:14:47. > :14:49.That's why this is a settlement that's worth fighting for. That's
:14:50. > :14:52.why all of the parties need to be focused next week on delivering a
:14:53. > :14:55.settlement which saves the institutions and enables them to
:14:56. > :14:59.continue. Secretary of State, thank you very much. Thank you.
:15:00. > :15:01.Theresa Villiers hedging her bets on a deal next week.
:15:02. > :15:04.And if you want to share your thoughts on what she had to say,
:15:05. > :15:08.Now, 2016 will see the marking of two major historical
:15:09. > :15:11.anniversaries - the Battle of the Somme, and the Easter Rising
:15:12. > :15:17.Tonight the Ulster Unionist Party has said it's likely to be present
:15:18. > :15:20.in Dublin at some point next Easter, potentially holding its own event.
:15:21. > :15:23.Our political correspondent, Chris Page, has been considering how the
:15:24. > :15:46.The events of that year really change the course of Irish history,
:15:47. > :15:53.the direction of this island. 1916 is a defining year for Irish
:15:54. > :15:56.republicans. It is a big anniversary because of
:15:57. > :16:03.the sacrifices that were made at the Somme. In this part of the world,
:16:04. > :16:10.many find history endlessly fascinating. It is also complex and
:16:11. > :16:14.contentious. The way people view events of the past is generally
:16:15. > :16:20.shaped by their current political views. History may never feel that
:16:21. > :16:31.far away here but next year it will feel particularly close. The
:16:32. > :16:38.movement started here inspires... There is all ready lots of interest.
:16:39. > :16:44.These people are doing a course on centenary is. They are getting a
:16:45. > :16:49.talk at Cray gave in house. It is here the UDF had its headquarters
:16:50. > :16:54.later the building was a hospital for the Ulster volunteers who fought
:16:55. > :16:58.in the First World War. What sort of interface between past and present
:16:59. > :17:05.will next year bring? It is a massive year and as in 1966, it
:17:06. > :17:12.always happens at a time when the dynamic is changing, now we have the
:17:13. > :17:19.up-and-down peace process going on, 1916, as an event is the last thing
:17:20. > :17:24.we need but we need to come to terms with these things. 100 years ago, it
:17:25. > :17:29.is easier to deal with now than in the 1960s. We have the diaries,
:17:30. > :17:33.Testament and witness statements and so much work has been done by
:17:34. > :17:36.historians looking at these events in a more objective and balanced
:17:37. > :17:43.way. There are new ways of exploring old
:17:44. > :17:48.stories. This mural shows a man who features in a graphic novel telling
:17:49. > :17:52.how the man gave his life to protect his fellow soldiers. At the Battle
:17:53. > :17:55.of the soppy threw himself onto grenades which slipped into a
:17:56. > :18:04.crowded trench and he was awarded the Victoria Cross. By showing our
:18:05. > :18:10.loyalty to Britain we hope they will reward us by getting rid of home
:18:11. > :18:13.rule. That is why I'm here. The graphic novel part of a project
:18:14. > :18:19.called creative centenaries looks at this woman must Winifred Carney was
:18:20. > :18:24.a suffragette, socialist and subversive. She took part in the
:18:25. > :18:27.rising and was one of the group which occupied the General Post
:18:28. > :18:33.Office in Dublin on Easter Monday. In indication of how nuanced
:18:34. > :18:39.narratives can be, she married a former UVF man who fought in the
:18:40. > :18:44.First World War. George McBride. Or though it was a hands across the
:18:45. > :18:49.divide marriage it was because they shared a revolutionary socialism,
:18:50. > :18:51.she was a nationalist and republican as well and George didn't have that
:18:52. > :19:00.perspective because he was a Protestant from another part of
:19:01. > :19:04.Belfast. But they shared and by the late 20s and 30s that was the common
:19:05. > :19:10.denominator because the situation had changed so much. Winifred Carney
:19:11. > :19:14.was the secretary of this man, James Connelly, this is where he lived in
:19:15. > :19:18.West Belfast. There will be a programme of events to mark the rise
:19:19. > :19:22.in which he was a leader of. A former Sinn Fein Lord Mayor is an
:19:23. > :19:28.organiser. He says he would like to see unionists play a role. History
:19:29. > :19:32.doesn't run along parallel lines, there is no one narrative that
:19:33. > :19:41.covers the story but I would appreciate it if you'd lifts came
:19:42. > :19:47.and put a view of 1916 or a critique of 1960 -- if a unionist came. I
:19:48. > :19:54.think there are issues that are important. It is a decade of
:19:55. > :19:58.centenaries, this is the PEEP leader playing Sir Edward Carson at an
:19:59. > :20:04.event to mark the 100th anniversary of the formation of the Ulster
:20:05. > :20:09.volunteers. Does he expect much interaction for the 2016
:20:10. > :20:15.anniversaries? There is talk about UVF flags and colours and there is
:20:16. > :20:18.no reason why people cannot do that because the flags are interesting,
:20:19. > :20:28.they carry the battle honours from the First World War and Peter Flack
:20:29. > :20:32.has an interesting past. I'm sure nationalist audiences could do that.
:20:33. > :20:35.People need to be saying we would like to hear something about this.
:20:36. > :20:42.We asked other parties for their perspectives. The SDLP will attend
:20:43. > :20:46.events, the Alliance are keen to find a way to engage with a event
:20:47. > :20:51.should not give validity to violence. The DUP say Unionists are
:20:52. > :20:54.unlikely to want to take part in rising commemorations. The Ulster
:20:55. > :21:00.Unionists say they are positively considering the issues. Ulster
:21:01. > :21:04.Unionists, including representatives, have gone to the
:21:05. > :21:09.cemetery in Dublin where some of the British soldiers who died in the
:21:10. > :21:14.rising are buried. So, we would like to enhance that to mark the
:21:15. > :21:21.centenary so that is one thing and also we are giving positive
:21:22. > :21:26.consideration to our own event, not to celebrate but to challenge, to
:21:27. > :21:28.challenge the causes and consequences of the Easter rising.
:21:29. > :21:30.Mike Nesbitt signalling the Ulster Unionists' intention to mark
:21:31. > :21:35.Familiarity with the nuts and bolts of our legislative process
:21:36. > :21:38.is normally the reserve of Assembly anoraks - but it's safe to say that
:21:39. > :21:41.a lot of people have at least some understanding
:21:42. > :21:49.of the controversy surrounding the use of Petitions of Concern.
:21:50. > :22:01.It was originally created and put into statute as a way of protecting
:22:02. > :22:08.minorities. It wasn't to give the largest party in this house a veto.
:22:09. > :22:13.They are using a mechanism established to protect minorities to
:22:14. > :22:17.force their religious dogma on all of the citizens. We have had Sinn
:22:18. > :22:22.Fein using the petition to exclude when we wanted to change the
:22:23. > :22:26.definition of a victim and they joined with the SDLP in a petition
:22:27. > :22:31.of concern in relation to welfare reform. So, position heal thyself.
:22:32. > :22:33.Differing views in the chamber on Petitions of Concern - and,
:22:34. > :22:36.of course, we had the controversy this week over the DUP's veto
:22:37. > :22:41.Joining me to discuss the issue are the Green MLA, Steven Agnew,
:22:42. > :22:43.and Dr Alex Schwartz from Queen's University, who's followed closely
:22:44. > :22:50.the use - and the accusations of misuse - of the mechanism.
:22:51. > :22:57.You are both welcome to the programme. You signed a petition of
:22:58. > :23:02.concern to block welfare reform, what was your justification? I think
:23:03. > :23:09.I had a simple decision to make, I had stood on a platform of defending
:23:10. > :23:13.public services, a key public surface, Social Security was under
:23:14. > :23:18.threat. The risk of cutting the incomes of the poorest in society
:23:19. > :23:22.and I had the choice to make a stand against that, I sought to amend the
:23:23. > :23:27.bill and improve it and work with other parties. Those amendments were
:23:28. > :23:31.a petition of concern and the final bill was cut and paste or the Tory
:23:32. > :23:36.government implemented in Great Britain. It has been disastrous. I
:23:37. > :23:42.chose to sign the petition of concern. So, you satisfied yourself
:23:43. > :23:46.that in that circumstance the ends justified the means. I think that's
:23:47. > :23:51.right. There is a question about whether or not we should have a
:23:52. > :24:01.petition of concern, it is something the Green party opposed in the Good
:24:02. > :24:06.Friday Agreement. In fact it relies on designating and enshrining
:24:07. > :24:11.sectarianism in the system. We thought it was the wrong method. It
:24:12. > :24:15.needs to be reformed. But you used it! That is where you have to play
:24:16. > :24:22.the game you are in. Those are the rules. There is a situation where
:24:23. > :24:27.thousands of my constituents and people across Northern Ireland were
:24:28. > :24:30.going to be disadvantaged. You cannot criticise another politician
:24:31. > :24:36.for using it because you have used it! There is use and misuse and
:24:37. > :24:43.abuse. I use it to protect my constituents and those across
:24:44. > :24:49.Ireland. Those who use it to protect their own minister from criticisms
:24:50. > :24:56.in the assembly on the privileges committee, we recommend sanctions.
:24:57. > :25:04.Parties have said they will block it and that is abusive. Alex, you could
:25:05. > :25:09.say one person's use is another person's misuse. Right, to
:25:10. > :25:13.understand what is an appropriate use and what is a misuse, you have
:25:14. > :25:19.to think about what the purpose of the procedure is. There are two key
:25:20. > :25:23.elements of having a power-sharing democracy in a divided society. One
:25:24. > :25:28.is the power-sharing government which we have an executive and a
:25:29. > :25:30.veto procedure so that the partners to power-sharing can block decisions
:25:31. > :25:35.that affect their grouping interests. That is why we have the
:25:36. > :25:37.petition of concern to protect the distinctive group interests of
:25:38. > :25:40.British Unionists and Irish nationalists. The problem we have is
:25:41. > :25:44.there is nothing built into the procedure to prevent it being used
:25:45. > :25:51.for decisions that have nothing to do with interest. So party politics
:25:52. > :25:55.which has nothing to do with minority interests. And that is the
:25:56. > :25:59.problem we face, we have seen an increase in the use of the petition
:26:00. > :26:03.of concern and the issues it has been used for. We see the big
:26:04. > :26:07.parties using them and criticising the other parties for doing the same
:26:08. > :26:13.thing. There is a degree of double standards. I would not single any
:26:14. > :26:17.parties out because the main parties have been guilty of this sort of
:26:18. > :26:24.misuse of the procedure. The question is what do we do about it
:26:25. > :26:31.to fix the situation? Well, do you think it needs to be fixed? And can
:26:32. > :26:36.be fixed? It needs to be fixed and the assembly institutions are not
:26:37. > :26:42.working. And I think there has been a number of bills, my own children's
:26:43. > :26:47.Bill about better co-operation between government... Which was not
:26:48. > :26:54.blocked. No, thankfully. The opposition Bill seeks to reform and
:26:55. > :27:00.I think that proposal of moving away from the designation to a majority
:27:01. > :27:05.requires a number of parties to sign up to any petition. I think that can
:27:06. > :27:09.help better corporate decision-making. How could the
:27:10. > :27:15.system be made more effective and more accountable? Well, there are
:27:16. > :27:18.several options that we might consider, one is to get rid of the
:27:19. > :27:22.cross community voting altogether but we are not at a place in
:27:23. > :27:26.Northern Ireland where that is a wise prudent thing to do. The sort
:27:27. > :27:32.of thing that might be a better idea is trying to include additional
:27:33. > :27:37.levels to limit the procedure to certain issues so we could devise
:27:38. > :27:42.rules, broad categories of the sorts of things we think the procedure
:27:43. > :27:46.should be used for. So one category would be cultural identity,
:27:47. > :27:50.symbolism and flanks and those things which have an obvious
:27:51. > :27:54.unionist or nationalist dimension. Another category could be the legacy
:27:55. > :27:58.of the conflict, the past and that would have a distinctive unionist or
:27:59. > :28:05.nationalist aspect. So you could have a built in so the speaker of
:28:06. > :28:09.the house could accept or reject petitions of concern on the basis of
:28:10. > :28:14.those grounds whether they fit in the categories or not. Within those
:28:15. > :28:21.criteria, issues that welfare reform and same-sex marriage probably would
:28:22. > :28:25.fall outside the remit. There are some issues that would fall in the
:28:26. > :28:29.categories and some which would clearly not fall in those
:28:30. > :28:33.categories. And some issues are more controversial. I do not want to take
:28:34. > :28:37.a stand on those particular views. Some are questionable, the most
:28:38. > :28:43.recent one is questionable in terms of a clear unionist interest at
:28:44. > :28:50.stake and I am not entirely sure the race. And that is the challenge,
:28:51. > :28:51.that nebulous bit in the middle between the big constitutional
:28:52. > :28:56.issues and bread-and-butter politics.
:28:57. > :29:07.We solve one problem and create another. As long as we enshrine in
:29:08. > :29:10.our Assembly and institutions we perpetuate the divisions that exist
:29:11. > :29:16.in our society. We are coming up to 20 years on from the Good Friday
:29:17. > :29:25.agreement. We need to move away from the two communities' language. We
:29:26. > :29:29.are a diverse Northern Ireland now. We should be moving away from that
:29:30. > :29:33.language and addressing those so-called bread and butter issues on
:29:34. > :29:38.their merits rather than which side of the community you are from. Given
:29:39. > :29:43.what you've heard from the Secretary of State tonight and given that
:29:44. > :29:49.these talks are continuing up at Stormont, are you optimistic that a
:29:50. > :29:54.deal is being cooked up? I think the word I've been picking up is that
:29:55. > :30:01.something will be agreed. I don't know what that looks like, but the
:30:02. > :30:09.clear situation is that the DUP is desperate not go to an election.
:30:10. > :30:14.Alex, a final one for you, reform of the petition obvious concern was
:30:15. > :30:18.discussed. It was discussed in the current process. What are the
:30:19. > :30:21.chances of Sinn Fein and the DUP agreeing to reform something that
:30:22. > :30:26.they've both used to their benefit in the last few years? I wish I had
:30:27. > :30:31.a crystal ball. But the fact that all the parties have abused it means
:30:32. > :30:34.they all stand to gain something by fixing the problem. They would
:30:35. > :30:38.decide notice the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland to
:30:39. > :30:41.put a lid on this and de-escalate this and make the system work better
:30:42. > :30:46.for delivering the goods for people here. That would be something they
:30:47. > :30:53.could all hopefully unite around. It is going to be fascinating to see
:30:54. > :30:59.how it pans out. Thank you both. Let's hear of what tonight's
:31:00. > :31:10.commentators think. Evening to you both. The Secretary of State says a
:31:11. > :31:17.deal is possible but not probable. It was bit mixed. At the beginning
:31:18. > :31:21.of the interview she made me sound like Polly Anna she was so downbeat.
:31:22. > :31:27.And then something clicked in her head that she may be doing huge
:31:28. > :31:30.damage to what she hopes be an agreement. My understanding is that
:31:31. > :31:35.the DUP and Sinn Fein are pretty close to a deal. I would still be
:31:36. > :31:40.shocked for all her negative view on this if a deal wasn't done in the
:31:41. > :31:44.next ten days. If the Secretary of State came in with a key message,
:31:45. > :31:49.what was that key message? I think it is hard to discern any particular
:31:50. > :32:00.key message or theme in that interview. It was a bit unsettlings
:32:01. > :32:05.for a lot of people. She said they could reach agreement on the other
:32:06. > :32:09.matters without agreement on the national security veto. The gap is
:32:10. > :32:18.closing but there are difficult issues that need the be resolved.
:32:19. > :32:24.She said workable progress. If there's a deal, and it is a big if,
:32:25. > :32:31.it might not be enthusiastically endorsed by any of the parties. It
:32:32. > :32:35.is worth saying in terms of the Ulster Unionist Party they are not
:32:36. > :32:39.in the executive, so in one sense it doesn't matter if they agree to this
:32:40. > :32:43.deal. Even if they agree to at this time they are not getting their
:32:44. > :32:48.Minister back. They'll end up with a deal pushed through by other
:32:49. > :32:52.parties. Is the bottom line that it only matters if it is between the
:32:53. > :32:59.DUP and Sinn Fein? For instance if the Ulster Unionists and the SDLP
:33:00. > :33:05.are left outside the tent? The SDLP parked it twice. They would like
:33:06. > :33:15.alliance on this, they need the Justice Minister on board. Board.
:33:16. > :33:23.And do you get a sense, Paul, that clock is ticking for a deal to be
:33:24. > :33:33.done crit Italy before the DUP conference on 21st November? I would
:33:34. > :33:42.understand why people in the Usain I would understand why people in the
:33:43. > :33:47.DUP and Peter Robinson would want a deal done. You can't say with
:33:48. > :33:52.uncertainty that a deal will be done next week. Let's move on to the
:33:53. > :33:56.subject of commemorations. We've got news that the Ulster Unionists are
:33:57. > :34:02.planning to be in Dublin at some stage next year for their own event.
:34:03. > :34:08.All significant is that potentially? I'm not sure. The trouble with all
:34:09. > :34:12.of this is you have two competing contradictory narratives of history,
:34:13. > :34:15.which suits both parties, because they have two competing
:34:16. > :34:19.contradictory end games and constitutional outcomes in mind. I
:34:20. > :34:24.think we are not going to have a situation where all parties sit down
:34:25. > :34:28.and agree on history. It worries me slightly, maybe it is a good step,
:34:29. > :34:32.but it worries me that he is going to have something almost like a
:34:33. > :34:38.competing event to say, this is our history. We don't understand each
:34:39. > :34:44.other's history. I didn't learn Irish history at school. I didn't
:34:45. > :34:48.learn it inform I was in my mid 20s. He said he want his version of
:34:49. > :34:53.events to be challenged. History belongs to all of us. I think people
:34:54. > :34:59.have had fixed ideas about what happened here in the past. A lot of
:35:00. > :35:02.the time they have had inaccurate views about what happened in
:35:03. > :35:07.different areas and aspects of our history. There is an interesting
:35:08. > :35:13.thing happening in Derry next year where schools are going to engage in
:35:14. > :35:18.a process of commemoration, about the Somme, 1916, and the Rising.
:35:19. > :35:22.They are going to learn it together, which is an interesting way to try
:35:23. > :35:27.to advance it. I think you will stem cell end up with two versions of
:35:28. > :35:33.history. Here's a bit of ours and here's a bit of yours and we don't
:35:34. > :35:42.know why it happened. Let's talk about the controversy over the Joe
:35:43. > :35:48.McWilliams painting, which appears to per tray members of the Ku Klux
:35:49. > :35:54.Klan. It is hard to spot when you look at the whole painting, 7 feet
:35:55. > :36:00.by 5 feet. There are the Orangemen seeming to be portrayed as
:36:01. > :36:06.chancemen. Rtrayed as chancemen. As Klansmen. Are people right to be
:36:07. > :36:11.offended? They may find it offensive but I think some art does set out to
:36:12. > :36:16.provoke, not necessarily to offend but to provoke. Some people might
:36:17. > :36:22.say that given the event being depict there had, members of the
:36:23. > :36:25.order did set themselves up to be, maybe not pilloried, but to have
:36:26. > :36:37.attention drawn to what they have done. But that's art. You do need to
:36:38. > :36:44.catch yourself on. Look at Scarfe and Ian Knox. Sometimes savage
:36:45. > :36:53.depictions of people. I don't go out of my way a offend but I know every
:36:54. > :36:58.day I will write something that will annoy someone intensely. I can
:36:59. > :37:03.understand why some Orangemen might be offended. My father was a former
:37:04. > :37:10.county grand mastery. Get over it. Don't be afraid of criticism. That's
:37:11. > :37:14.how that artist sees them. We've heard unionist politicians saying we
:37:15. > :37:20.don't support censorship but this is a shared public space, publicly
:37:21. > :37:27.fund. While this exhibition has been brought in, nonetheless it is
:37:28. > :37:30.acceptable. My view is if they don't support censorship they are looking
:37:31. > :37:34.to introduce censorship. That's ridiculous. Leave it hanging there.
:37:35. > :37:37.There'll be other things that people will be offended for all sorts of
:37:38. > :37:40.reasons. I would rather be offended now and then to say we are going to
:37:41. > :37:42.stop everything. Thank you both. That's about it from The View
:37:43. > :37:44.for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics
:37:45. > :37:47.at 12.50 here on BBC One. Just before we go -
:37:48. > :37:50.in a week of protests against arts cuts, there was one unlikely comment
:37:51. > :37:52.that caught our eye. It came from a Minister who's never
:37:53. > :38:28.afraid to stand up for herself I know he understands the question.
:38:29. > :38:33.He just doesn't like the answer. I think the member needs to put up or
:38:34. > :38:39.shut up. Well I think you have a brass neck. It's a pity I couldn't
:38:40. > :38:45.put words in your mouth. A little more respect from you, please. We
:38:46. > :38:52.don't need that for pure ignorance. I resent that remark. I think that's
:38:53. > :39:02.ridiculous. You have a complete brass neck...
:39:03. > :39:06.The Ulstermen head to Wales for the second time this season -