:00:00. > :00:00.A week of major political developments -
:00:00. > :00:07.Peter Robinson announces he's to retire, while the agreement that
:00:08. > :00:11.should save Stormont has led to recriminations and accusations.
:00:12. > :00:35.On The View tonight - is the "fresh start" more of a false dawn?
:00:36. > :00:39.Peter Robinson prepares to say goodbye to the DUP at this weekend's
:00:40. > :00:42.conference with the ink barely dry on his deal with Sinn Fein.
:00:43. > :00:52.So, has it been tough at the top for the First Minister?
:00:53. > :01:01.It is a rough trade, and the further you get up that greasy pole, the
:01:02. > :01:12.more people are wanting to bring down.
:01:13. > :01:16.There is a certain amount of sensitive information that could
:01:17. > :01:20.have assistance to terrorists. And on such a dramatic week,
:01:21. > :01:23.we've boosted the cast After four decades in politics -
:01:24. > :01:35.and the last seven years in the top job as First Minister - Peter
:01:36. > :01:39.Robinson is stepping down after, in He said it's been 'difficult' to
:01:40. > :01:43.find the right time to go, but following this week's deal,
:01:44. > :01:45.now seems 'appropriate'. Our Political Editor,
:01:46. > :01:47.Mark Devenport, spoke to Mr Robinson and he began by asking him
:01:48. > :02:02.when exactly he plans to give up I have left the exact timing with
:02:03. > :02:09.the party officer. Either at the end of this year or the beginning of
:02:10. > :02:18.next would be the appropriate time. The rest is really up to the
:02:19. > :02:23.electoral college. If they pick somebody from outside the Assembly,
:02:24. > :02:27.then the position has to be divided. If they choose somebody from the
:02:28. > :02:32.Assembly, that is an option where they hold both posts. We are a
:02:33. > :02:38.Democratic party and we take those decisions based on the interest
:02:39. > :02:44.shown in standing for the post. Would complicate decision-making if
:02:45. > :02:53.the DUP leader is over in Westminster? -- would it complicate?
:02:54. > :03:00.We have a system where when we appoint somebody to a position, we
:03:01. > :03:03.entrust them to start -- carry out various functions. I don't breathe
:03:04. > :03:11.down the neck of my ministers, if I had to, I have appointed the wrong
:03:12. > :03:16.people. There will be time when they, as is the case at the present
:03:17. > :03:22.time, will want to consult with colleagues, and all of that will be
:03:23. > :03:26.done collectively. You have always been known as a
:03:27. > :03:35.24-hour politician. How will you cope with retirement? Will you give
:03:36. > :03:41.up full top? -- stop. I am not the kind of person who will
:03:42. > :03:49.sit and idle around the house and get in my wife's way.
:03:50. > :03:54.I suspect it probably won't do politics, but we will see as time
:03:55. > :03:57.goes on. I am probably not at a position where I will take those
:03:58. > :04:03.decisions at this point. You have had your crosses to bear,
:04:04. > :04:08.there was the controversy... You are talking about the press
:04:09. > :04:13.office! Yes, and more recently controversies
:04:14. > :04:21.involving Nama. Have there been times when you thought I can't be
:04:22. > :04:25.bothered carrying on? Yes, it is a rough trade, and the further you get
:04:26. > :04:31.up that greasy pole, the more people want to bring you down.
:04:32. > :04:39.The notice by gift to whoever takes over the position, don't expect the
:04:40. > :04:43.honeymoon to last too long. -- the notice I give. The cross hairs will
:04:44. > :04:48.be on your back straightaway. Your predecessor had some harsh
:04:49. > :04:55.words for Europe -- about you after he left. Did that hurt at the time
:04:56. > :04:59.and is it something you will learn from?
:05:00. > :05:05.I simply wouldn't find myself in the position where I am going to turn on
:05:06. > :05:09.friends and colleagues who have supported me throughout my lifetime.
:05:10. > :05:17.I will be there to give support, to encourage those who follow, and if
:05:18. > :05:23.the party wants me to give advice, I will give it, but I am not going to
:05:24. > :05:26.stick my nose in and interfere in future decision-making. I will be
:05:27. > :05:31.there to encourage and support. Will you endorse any successor?
:05:32. > :05:39.I will endorse whoever the successor is. But you will not enter into any
:05:40. > :05:43.sort of competitive race's it is wrong for an outgoing leader to try
:05:44. > :05:50.and shake that. What I do know is that all of those who might be
:05:51. > :05:56.considered are friends of mine, people who have served me lawyerly,
:05:57. > :05:58.and they can accept -- expect the same from me.
:05:59. > :05:59.Peter Robinson's thoughts on moving on.
:06:00. > :06:02.Let's get the thoughts of our guests - Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd,
:06:03. > :06:04.the SDLP's Mark Durkan, the Alliance leader, David Ford,
:06:05. > :06:11.We did ask the Ulster Unionists to take part, but they declined.
:06:12. > :06:18.No great surprise that Peter Robinson's going. Is it because the
:06:19. > :06:25.party now sees him as an electoral liability? No, the DUP is the
:06:26. > :06:34.powerhouse it is because of what Peter Robinson has done. He has said
:06:35. > :06:43.himself that he feels this is the time ago, it is not easy to bring a
:06:44. > :06:46.career 40 years, he has helped to bring the party from nothing to the
:06:47. > :06:52.powerhouse it is today. They got us our best electoral result ever in
:06:53. > :06:58.the 2011 Assembly elections. -- he got us. Over the last few weeks he
:06:59. > :07:03.has got is a deal that stabilises storm on, and it is up to him to
:07:04. > :07:11.take his decision and now is the time to go and we wish him very
:07:12. > :07:18.well. -- stabilises storm. Mark, how did you get on with him? The first
:07:19. > :07:24.dealings would have been way back in the Brooke and Mayhew talks. I saw
:07:25. > :07:31.he wanted to see a deal done but wouldn't want to do the deal. In
:07:32. > :07:36.1996 he adopted a position of enabling opposition but then
:07:37. > :07:43.attacking the very rules themselves and attacking people who agreed on
:07:44. > :07:47.to that. But he has his own discipline view of things but is
:07:48. > :07:52.pragmatic enough about letting things flow sometimes. Martin
:07:53. > :07:55.McGuinness said today he regards him as a friend wants to take him
:07:56. > :08:02.fishing when retires. Not the kind of relationship the public imagine
:08:03. > :08:07.they had. Martin and Peter come from different political backgrounds, but
:08:08. > :08:10.they have managed to hold the Executive together through a very
:08:11. > :08:15.difficult period for politics in this society. To do that requires
:08:16. > :08:18.trust, and also a degree of friendship. It may not be the
:08:19. > :08:24.friendship your viewers recognise or others recognise, but to make that
:08:25. > :08:28.work, to secure the deal we have secured over the last number of
:08:29. > :08:34.days, there has to be trust and a friendship. Do you regard him as a
:08:35. > :08:40.friend? I don't know him as well as Martin, but I don't regard him as an
:08:41. > :08:45.enemy. He led the DUP through a very challenging time, and was prepared
:08:46. > :08:48.to take risks in terms of his political leadership and his
:08:49. > :08:55.approach to society. For that, I respect him. David, you clashed many
:08:56. > :09:00.times down the years. What has his contribution been to local politics?
:09:01. > :09:07.He has played a very significant role in recent years in embedding
:09:08. > :09:11.the arrangements since 2007. I have seen time when he has been getting
:09:12. > :09:16.on well with Martin McGuinness, time when the two of them were not
:09:17. > :09:21.getting on. There has been a certain brittleness around certain issues,
:09:22. > :09:27.whilst at other times there has been that willingness to go ahead and
:09:28. > :09:30.compromise. Simon, finally, are you backing the dream team that
:09:31. > :09:38.everybody is talking about, Nigel Dodds and Arlene Foster? Today is a
:09:39. > :09:42.day to reflect on the positive legacy and positive impact Peter
:09:43. > :09:45.Robinson has had on the DUP and politics in Northern Ireland. The
:09:46. > :09:49.party officers will discuss this in the coming days and set a process in
:09:50. > :09:55.motion. It is testimony to the strength of the party that Peter has
:09:56. > :10:00.developed, but we have so many people but have the ability to step
:10:01. > :10:03.in as leader. Sammy Wilson refused to leave himself out, some people
:10:04. > :10:09.are touting you as the Deputy Leader. It is deputy -- testament to
:10:10. > :10:16.the strength of the party that there are so many people who at capable of
:10:17. > :10:17.stepping in. Thanks very much indeed.
:10:18. > :10:20.And now for the second big political story of the week.
:10:21. > :10:23.On Tuesday, after ten weeks of negotiation, the "Fresh Start"
:10:24. > :10:25.With it came a way forward on paramilitarism
:10:26. > :10:28.and welfare changes - but continued deadlock over legacy issues.
:10:29. > :10:30.I've been speaking to the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers,
:10:31. > :10:33.and I began by asking her how she'd managed to find
:10:34. > :10:35.an extra ?500 million for the deal, when she'd always maintained there
:10:36. > :10:51.We have shown that when a credible case is put to us that the specific
:10:52. > :10:56.issues with which Northern Ireland needs extra support as a result of
:10:57. > :11:02.the unique circumstances it faces, we will stretch ourselves it -- if
:11:03. > :11:08.it is possibly affordable. It has been immensely difficult to find
:11:09. > :11:10.that support, given this is the most difficult public spending
:11:11. > :11:14.environment we have had in this country for many decades. But we
:11:15. > :11:19.were determined to do all we could to play our part to try and get a
:11:20. > :11:25.successful outcome to the talks. The victims of the Troubles are
:11:26. > :11:30.disappointed that legacy is not part of this latest deal. You know the
:11:31. > :11:35.victims commissioner is deeply unhappy, victims' groups feel pushed
:11:36. > :11:43.to the side under down once again. Failure to get that as part of this
:11:44. > :11:50.deal appears to rest with you. -- feel pushed aside.
:11:51. > :11:54.We were very clear that we would provide the fullest possible
:11:55. > :12:00.disclosure to the new historical investigation unit, but in order to
:12:01. > :12:04.safeguard national security, we had to play some consider -- place
:12:05. > :12:09.constraints on the information that unit could put into the public
:12:10. > :12:12.domain. The reality is there is certain information that is too
:12:13. > :12:16.sensitive to be put out into the public domain, and we would be
:12:17. > :12:25.taking risks with the security of the people who it is our first duty
:12:26. > :12:26.to protect, the people of the UK. But some of these
:12:27. > :12:31.to protect, the people of the UK. killings took place almost half a
:12:32. > :12:34.century ago. One victims' group has asked repeatedly,
:12:35. > :12:38.century ago. One victims' group has a 45-year-old killing can possibly
:12:39. > :12:45.be a threat to current national security? The Technics, capacities,
:12:46. > :12:49.capabilities of the intelligence services, which were being used all
:12:50. > :12:57.those decades ago, have still been kept secret. And putting them out
:12:58. > :13:01.into the public domain with not only assist dissident republicans in
:13:02. > :13:04.their efforts to kill people, they would provide help
:13:05. > :13:08.their efforts to kill people, they terrorist groups who watched the
:13:09. > :13:14.Internet assiduously looking for any means by which to foil the
:13:15. > :13:20.Internet assiduously looking for any prevent terrorist attacks. But I
:13:21. > :13:26.have heard representatives say they don't want that kind of disclosure.
:13:27. > :13:27.When you say that, you are in fact introducing a red herring
:13:28. > :13:29.When you say that, you are in fact discussion. You could only want to
:13:30. > :13:32.use this feed to discussion. You could only want to
:13:33. > :13:44.business of discussion. You could only want to
:13:45. > :13:44.by state agents. -- veto. They not interested in current security
:13:45. > :13:51.information. That is not true. We not interested in current security
:13:52. > :13:53.want families to have as much information as possible, but there
:13:54. > :13:58.is a certain information as possible, but there
:13:59. > :14:01.information which if it was publicly known with potentially give
:14:02. > :14:05.assistance to terrorists. We simply could not compromise on that. The
:14:06. > :14:08.Chief Constable has made it clear supports full disclosure. He is
:14:09. > :14:10.happy supports full disclosure. He is
:14:11. > :14:16.relating to death but supports full disclosure. He is
:14:17. > :14:19.the Troubles to be made available in the public sphere. Does he not
:14:20. > :14:29.understand national security? I am not sure which comment you are
:14:30. > :14:35.referring to but I am sure he would agree with me... He says records
:14:36. > :14:40.should be thrown open, he was crystal clear about that. I am sure
:14:41. > :14:46.he would agree with me that where information, if revealed, would
:14:47. > :14:50.jeopardise national security that it would be inappropriate. The victims
:14:51. > :14:55.commissioner and an assortment of victim's group have asked to meet
:14:56. > :15:01.you urgently. Will those meetings take place shortly and who do you
:15:02. > :15:05.intend to meet? I have said I want to see the commissioner and
:15:06. > :15:08.representatives from victims groups as soon as I can. We have not
:15:09. > :15:12.scheduled those meetings yet but I hope they will take place shortly
:15:13. > :15:20.and I will certainly be taking the victims Commissioner's advice on key
:15:21. > :15:26.groups to meet. I think we can find a way forward. We have found common
:15:27. > :15:30.ground between five parties leading to the legacy bodies. With further
:15:31. > :15:33.work we can find a way forward that will get legislation into Parliament
:15:34. > :15:41.or the Assembly and get these bodies set up. Let's pick up on the issue
:15:42. > :15:46.of victims. We are hearing that the victim's form is demanding a meeting
:15:47. > :15:47.with the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach.
:15:48. > :15:50.It's also seeking 'an unreserved apology and explanation from those
:15:51. > :15:53.Will you apologise and explain why Sinn Fein insisted
:15:54. > :16:04.There are a multitude of views in the victims's groups as to how you
:16:05. > :16:09.approach the past. There are also many victims's groups, families and
:16:10. > :16:13.survivors who said we quite correct not to sign off on the legacy
:16:14. > :16:19.aspects of the deal as presented to us by the British government. There
:16:20. > :16:27.is a multitude of attitudes and approaches to this. You are not
:16:28. > :16:31.bothered by the victims? No, we are not dismissing them. We are seeking
:16:32. > :16:36.full disclosure. The reason given by the Secretary of State, and I am
:16:37. > :16:42.sorry she is not in the studio, but would have been helpful, the reasons
:16:43. > :16:47.given by the Secretary of State do not stack up. During the talks
:16:48. > :16:50.process, the Secretary of State was issuing certificates against the
:16:51. > :16:58.DCAL minister opposing the publication of public records out of
:16:59. > :17:03.the office. Public records. That is an important point. Sinn Fein could
:17:04. > :17:06.have included elements to do with victims and continued to have your
:17:07. > :17:10.disagreement, your conversation, your debate, discussion with the
:17:11. > :17:15.British government about national security. You could have gone down
:17:16. > :17:20.that road and you didn't. Victims feel very disappointed. We could
:17:21. > :17:22.have gone down that road, however, with the use of certificates by the
:17:23. > :17:28.Secretary of State, the other structures could not have worked
:17:29. > :17:32.properly. The Secretary of State is the person issuing certificates. She
:17:33. > :17:37.is the person insisting on using national security as a blank cheque
:17:38. > :17:41.to stop disclosure. Simon Hamilton, never signed up to be doing, but
:17:42. > :17:45.Sinn Fein has not allowed legacy to be a part of the deal. Can you
:17:46. > :17:49.explain to the audience White the British government is insisting on a
:17:50. > :17:54.national security detail concerning troubles related deaths which took
:17:55. > :17:58.place decades ago? There is a risk in dwelling on the past and legacy
:17:59. > :18:04.issues which were not agreed, but we forget the good bits in the
:18:05. > :18:10.agreement. We have agreed welfare reform. We will talk about that.
:18:11. > :18:15.There are lots of things that are positive. On this issue of legacy,
:18:16. > :18:19.yes it was not included in the deed, we did not get it over the line
:18:20. > :18:24.completely, but that takes away from the fact there was a lot of work and
:18:25. > :18:27.progress made on these issues and it was this final issue of national
:18:28. > :18:31.security that caused problems. Clearly the Secretary of State has
:18:32. > :18:35.given her explanation. It is the position we agree with and I think
:18:36. > :18:41.the government has got to protect its national security interest. We
:18:42. > :18:44.are concerned the disclosure that others are wanting is not available
:18:45. > :18:50.to victims of terrorist violence, IRA violence, UDA, EDF violence.
:18:51. > :18:56.That level of disclosure is not available to them. Can you see why
:18:57. > :19:00.victims are concerned that it is the British government using the excuse
:19:01. > :19:06.of national security to cover up, potentially cover up, criminal acts
:19:07. > :19:09.by state agents? The Secretary of State has given her explanation, I
:19:10. > :19:15.do not think that this motivation. It is about protecting national
:19:16. > :19:19.security interests in terms of what can be divulged that might have an
:19:20. > :19:22.impact on terrorism and paramilitary organisations like dissident
:19:23. > :19:26.republicans here and now. There are others out there in the world who
:19:27. > :19:32.are looking to find creeks and gaps and so forth in British intelligence
:19:33. > :19:36.services and how big other information. Clearly, in the time we
:19:37. > :19:40.are in, we do not want to risk that. The failure of the deed to resolve
:19:41. > :19:46.legacy issues has had a huge impact on your brief as justice minister.
:19:47. > :19:50.It has an impact on the justice system, on victims. It has risen in
:19:51. > :19:54.difficult circumstances. It does not matter whether you are British,
:19:55. > :20:00.French, Spanish, steps up to be taken to protect national security.
:20:01. > :20:03.The draft bill add layer upon layer which suggested the Secretary of
:20:04. > :20:07.State would interfere. The result of that failure to agree is that the
:20:08. > :20:12.justice system still has mastered issues to deal with from the past.
:20:13. > :20:15.The Secretary of State in the House of Commons about money being
:20:16. > :20:19.available when the institutions are set up. The UK Government has
:20:20. > :20:23.international obligations which it has to recognise along with the
:20:24. > :20:26.moral obligation to the Executive to see that we meet those needs for the
:20:27. > :20:30.ombudsman, for the legacy inquest, for the police, for the work which
:20:31. > :20:35.must be done by them because we do not have the institutions. Mark
:20:36. > :20:38.Durkan, discussed this issue in the house today. How would you move it
:20:39. > :20:43.forward question mark Sinn Fein have said on less everything is agreed,
:20:44. > :20:49.nothing can be agreed. TE agreed that that position was right? It is
:20:50. > :20:54.hard to get a veto in relation to legacy issues. The Secretary of
:20:55. > :20:57.State White finger at Sinn Fein and the SDLP saying there would not be
:20:58. > :21:01.an agreement on the past and less welfare reform was done. We have a
:21:02. > :21:05.deal on welfare reform and we do not have the past moving forward. We
:21:06. > :21:08.need to make immense are not. All others in the political process will
:21:09. > :21:14.stand indicted and criticised by victims that this has come about. We
:21:15. > :21:18.need to move forward. We leave this to be sorted out between Sinn Fein
:21:19. > :21:22.and the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State cannot get away
:21:23. > :21:28.with saying that what she is doing is consistent with what she said in
:21:29. > :21:32.a stormy post. In a stormy post. About onward disclosure. In this the
:21:33. > :21:35.national security thing is common in everywhere. Contrary to the
:21:36. > :21:41.impression that Simon gave, the people being protected with some of
:21:42. > :21:45.these national security vetting issues are people who were involved
:21:46. > :21:48.in paramilitary killings. It is not just people involved in state
:21:49. > :21:53.killings who are protected under the guise of national security, it is
:21:54. > :21:56.people who were involved in paramilitary killings. It is a false
:21:57. > :22:03.concern that Simon is expressing here. Do you want to respond to
:22:04. > :22:08.that? It is not a false concern. There is a balance of those cases
:22:09. > :22:12.that would be dealt with being those that involve state actors. There
:22:13. > :22:16.isn't that level of disclosure, and this is a concern we have and have
:22:17. > :22:22.expressed in the talks, that that level of disclosure is not available
:22:23. > :22:28.to the victims and survivors of IRA violence or UVF were UDA violence. I
:22:29. > :22:33.want to move on to welfare. John O'Dowd. You have managed to secure
:22:34. > :22:37.less money for the most vulnerable here compared to the deal last year.
:22:38. > :22:43.How exposed is Sinn Fein electorally by what you signed up to? We have
:22:44. > :22:47.achieved more money over a shorter period of time for people on welfare
:22:48. > :22:51.and the hundred thousand families who are watching this show tonight
:22:52. > :22:55.will see their family tax credits and working tax credits cut. Sinn
:22:56. > :22:59.Fein could have remained in its position and said we will not shift
:23:00. > :23:04.from our position around welfare and we are going to ignore those 100,000
:23:05. > :23:07.families, but in my opinion, we made the right decision, we changed our
:23:08. > :23:11.position and we brought in a further round of people who would have
:23:12. > :23:16.suffered as a result of Tory economic policy. What is your
:23:17. > :23:18.message to those people who are not affected by tax credits but who are
:23:19. > :23:23.the most needy in society you said you want to protect and who now have
:23:24. > :23:28.less mitigation, less protection than they had last December? They
:23:29. > :23:36.still have protection. We will see... There is less money in that
:23:37. > :23:40.side of things. There is significantly more money in the pot
:23:41. > :23:47.for a family tax credits and working tax credits. A large section of our
:23:48. > :23:52.society... It is a separate issue. How is it a separate issue? The
:23:53. > :23:56.people who will benefit from tax credits are different from the
:23:57. > :23:59.people you promised to protect. We promised to protect the most
:24:00. > :24:03.vulnerable, hard working families are fundable to cuts from Tories as
:24:04. > :24:08.well. What do you say to your constituents, Sinn Fein voters, who
:24:09. > :24:12.depend on benefits? Who are not as generously protected in this did as
:24:13. > :24:16.they were in the previous two estimate what I say to all voters
:24:17. > :24:19.and all people affected by welfare reform, because we did not go into
:24:20. > :24:23.the talks simply around Sinn Fein filters on welfare, we went in to
:24:24. > :24:29.the talks for all citizens affected by this policy. Let's be clear, your
:24:30. > :24:34.post in Sinn Fein until September this year was that no claimant,
:24:35. > :24:45.present or future, would lose out. Can you still say that? No, we
:24:46. > :24:47.can't. George Osborne stood in Westminster and changed the
:24:48. > :24:52.goalposts. 100,000 families were brought into the equation who were
:24:53. > :24:55.losing out because of family tax credits and working tax credit
:24:56. > :25:02.cuts. We refused to walk away and leave them behind. Last time it was
:25:03. > :25:07.Theresa Villiers, now it is George Osborne. They are in the same party
:25:08. > :25:14.and in the same government. You are shaking your head. This is
:25:15. > :25:18.dishonest. Sinn Fein said nobody would lose out on benefits that were
:25:19. > :25:22.under their control. They have simply handed control to somebody
:25:23. > :25:26.else. To say people will be vulnerable to the Tories and then
:25:27. > :25:30.give it control of that to the Tories, give them direct route
:25:31. > :25:34.powers for 13 months at a key stage in welfare, because we know that
:25:35. > :25:37.George Osborne, after what he said in July, will follow up with more
:25:38. > :25:42.cuts. He has been forced into saying there would be more mitigation UK
:25:43. > :25:46.wide. We do not know that the mitigations will be on a par with
:25:47. > :25:52.what Sinn Fein and the DUP are seeing is part of their special day
:25:53. > :25:56.now. Then the Executive will have more money to protect people. There
:25:57. > :26:00.might not be a wider benefit the antibody. Let's be clear, Sinn Fein
:26:01. > :26:04.said all along it would protect people they would not do anything.
:26:05. > :26:08.We have a situation for the DUP have been on a rollover in relation to
:26:09. > :26:13.welfare reform and not Sinn Fein have engaged in handover in relation
:26:14. > :26:16.to welfare reform. To hand but how to be Tories, to say we are putting
:26:17. > :26:21.our faith and trust in the Tories, that is how we will protect people
:26:22. > :26:27.from Tory cuts, give them the power directly. Why did the DUP agree to
:26:28. > :26:32.hand ?240 million for tax credit mitigation back to the Treasury over
:26:33. > :26:36.a 4 year period when this could be completely changed, the goalposts
:26:37. > :26:41.could be moved by the Autumn Statement from the Chancellor next
:26:42. > :26:45.Wednesday? We were keen to support the 105 families across Northern
:26:46. > :26:51.Ireland affected by tax credit reductions so we are glad that the
:26:52. > :26:55.deal covers ?60 million a year... We have no idea what the situation will
:26:56. > :26:59.be. That is notional. The Chancellor could move the goalposts to the
:27:00. > :27:05.other end of the pitch by next week. Let's see what happens. That is my
:27:06. > :27:10.point. You have signed up to it and it is a notional deed. It is the
:27:11. > :27:16.right thing to do. We were right to take into account that we needed to
:27:17. > :27:21.do something in respect... You cannot know if it was the right
:27:22. > :27:24.thing to do. We know the numbers in terms of tax credits and those
:27:25. > :27:29.people will be affected by what ever George Osborne is in the next number
:27:30. > :27:32.of days. Those are families who will be affected. There will be families
:27:33. > :27:37.in Northern Ireland who are hard working families, families we want
:27:38. > :27:41.to support, they will be affected. You cannot say things like that, it
:27:42. > :27:45.is not right, you have not crunched the numbers because you do not know
:27:46. > :27:50.what the numbers are. George Osborne will tell you next week what they
:27:51. > :27:55.are. There are families in Northern Ireland who will be affected,
:27:56. > :28:01.105,000 families, we will see what happens with George Osborne in the
:28:02. > :28:03.next days. Whatever he does next week, there will be families,
:28:04. > :28:07.hard-working families, relying on tax credits who are going to need
:28:08. > :28:13.the support we have set aside for them and I am glad we have agreed
:28:14. > :28:18.that. It looks likely to party did. You voted for it in the Assembly but
:28:19. > :28:24.not the Executive. We voted for the legislative consent motion for
:28:25. > :28:29.welfare because that was the least responsible thing to do. We did not
:28:30. > :28:34.vote for the deal as a whole. It is a 2-party deed as far as you're
:28:35. > :28:41.concerned? It is a 2-party and to government did. Is it a diminution
:28:42. > :28:46.of devolution because the small parties are not happy with that? We
:28:47. > :28:49.were supposed to start off with the two governments plus five parties
:28:50. > :28:53.process but it became clear it was not just a matter of the document
:28:54. > :28:57.being agreed everyone, it was a document prepared to be directed at
:28:58. > :29:03.everybody else. Some of the issues in it, the point of finances, we do
:29:04. > :29:06.not know what the outcome of the stand-off between George Osborne and
:29:07. > :29:10.Labour and Lib Dems will be. We do not know what the Autumn Statement
:29:11. > :29:14.is. We got no business case for dealing with issues like corporation
:29:15. > :29:21.tax. It is a suck your finger, stick it in the wind and hope kind of
:29:22. > :29:25.budget. I do not know if you regard that as a positive or negative note
:29:26. > :29:27.to end this part of the programme. Not a great deal of agreement around
:29:28. > :29:31.the table but we appreciate your time.
:29:32. > :29:33.Let's hear what our super-sized panel of
:29:34. > :29:39.commentators make of the deal and the departure of Peter Robinson.
:29:40. > :29:49.Newton, you have been writing about about this as far as welfare's
:29:50. > :29:57.concerned. Do any, on many of the numbers, stack up? It is a slightly
:29:58. > :30:04.worst -- were steel for claimants. But reality had to be faced, Sinn
:30:05. > :30:11.Fein has swallowed hard and excepted what had to be done. -- a worse
:30:12. > :30:16.deal. I think in the future this greatly stabilises this toxic issue
:30:17. > :30:23.about how to manage a sort of half devolved welfare system. I think the
:30:24. > :30:26.reason they had to perform a U-turn so quickly is because they need to
:30:27. > :30:32.start looking a bit or responsible for the southern electorate. What is
:30:33. > :30:46.not playing well is the legislative consent mechanism. It smacks of
:30:47. > :30:50.devolution a la cart. -- carte. When you look at the welfare package,
:30:51. > :30:55.look at the issue of victims and survivors. Not only is this a deal
:30:56. > :30:59.that is not dealing with legacy issues, but a significant portion of
:31:00. > :31:03.disability living allowance claimants that they've in this
:31:04. > :31:07.jurisdiction are victims and survivors of the conflict. They will
:31:08. > :31:13.have to go through this working capacity assessment, there will be
:31:14. > :31:19.looking at benefit cuts. The talk of putting in a victims' and
:31:20. > :31:28.survivors' pension is part of a let -- Legacy package that isn't agreed.
:31:29. > :31:34.Do you regard this as a glass half full or glass half empty deal? Some
:31:35. > :31:39.people think it is just a bad deal, but others would say, adulation fame
:31:40. > :31:43.and the DUP deserve credit because they have agreed on quite a lot and
:31:44. > :31:55.they are still working apparently on what they haven't agreed on. There
:31:56. > :31:59.was a broad move across civil society and a call for the parties
:32:00. > :32:05.to make a deal. So I think we have to say, they have made a deal.
:32:06. > :32:14.Devolution matters to us, and we still have it. However, then we get
:32:15. > :32:16.into the detail. And all of this just has to be worked out and agreed
:32:17. > :32:20.one way or just has to be worked out and agreed
:32:21. > :32:22.can have everything they want, so we are glad there is something on the
:32:23. > :32:26.page. As someone who was part of the are glad there is something on the
:32:27. > :32:34.there is nothing are glad there is something on the
:32:35. > :32:38.issues here, which are glad there is something on the
:32:39. > :32:44.to say the least. We had an operational
:32:45. > :32:45.to say the least. We had an Unfortunately it has not. How big an
:32:46. > :32:52.obstacle to future progress is Unfortunately it has not. How big an
:32:53. > :32:59.that legacy is so far raised -- unresolved? Considerable -- a
:33:00. > :33:04.considerable barrier. Trying to deal with the past, you certainly cannot
:33:05. > :33:08.do it. If you look at the deal overall, ?500 million of new money
:33:09. > :33:14.is not a bad ill, it is not pocket money. But if you look at some of
:33:15. > :33:23.the things that are not addressed, for instance parades, the is still
:33:24. > :33:29.-- the fresh start deal says we want parades to be an Assembly manner
:33:30. > :33:34.when -- matter when it is devolved. All this does is park problems for a
:33:35. > :33:38.later date. I am less derisive about the financial elements of the deal,
:33:39. > :33:41.I think they're quite substantial, but I think some of the other staff
:33:42. > :33:49.that has caused problems was not addressed. You've written widely
:33:50. > :33:53.about the DUP, and follow the career of Peter Robinson over a long period
:33:54. > :33:58.of time. What you think about his decision to go at this time? A lot
:33:59. > :34:02.of people are asking, has he jumped or was he pushed? Why stay on? The
:34:03. > :34:07.DUP are or was he pushed? Why stay on? The
:34:08. > :34:14.high water mark of 38 seats in the Assembly. And he has chosen his own
:34:15. > :34:18.moment of departure rather than the moment of departure choose him. And
:34:19. > :34:25.he does leave quite a set stature legacy. The St Andrews agreement, he
:34:26. > :34:28.was the brains behind that. The devolution of policing and justice
:34:29. > :34:33.and the fresh diet deal, but is quite substantial, but the biggest
:34:34. > :34:38.single legacy is what he has done to his party. Peter Robinson, one in
:34:39. > :34:44.five members joined the DUP after he became leader. He has got more women
:34:45. > :34:49.into the party, and there is going to be this interesting dual monarchy
:34:50. > :34:54.with Arlene Foster and Nigel Dodds now. Nigel Dodds is on record as
:34:55. > :34:58.saying that the party leader has to be members of the Assembly, so there
:34:59. > :35:05.try to circumvent that if Arlene Foster is First Minister. What do
:35:06. > :35:08.you make of the timing of Peter Robinson's departure? From his point
:35:09. > :35:13.of view, was at the right thing to do? I think his political career has
:35:14. > :35:18.been a study in contradiction. On the one hand you have a leader who
:35:19. > :35:21.inherited very easily the mantle of statesman from Ian Paisley and was
:35:22. > :35:25.very comfortable with the pomp and ceremony around Westminster, but on
:35:26. > :35:32.the other hand you have had a career that has been plagued by a we say
:35:33. > :35:37.concerns, starting with his involvement with Ulster resistance,
:35:38. > :35:41.moving into the difficulties with his comments are Muslims last year,
:35:42. > :35:48.and the most recent allegations about llama. On the one hand you
:35:49. > :35:53.have as John said a leader who has resided over the electoral rise of
:35:54. > :35:58.the DUP -- Nama. But he lost his own Westminster seat, so it is almost a
:35:59. > :36:08.case now of the DUP saying here is your hat, what's your Harry? I heard
:36:09. > :36:11.him described today as fundamentally chameleon-like, hardline progress
:36:12. > :36:18.depending on what he needed to be at any moment? He was a tactician. Just
:36:19. > :36:21.before the flag protests he was speaking about reaching out to the
:36:22. > :36:26.centre ground, but when that was tested by loyalist problems he
:36:27. > :36:29.backed down from a position. We will never know of the project he clearly
:36:30. > :36:35.thought of as a good idea full of rising his party would ever have
:36:36. > :36:40.come to fruition. -- liberalising. He has now left in -- an elaborate
:36:41. > :36:45.structure that other people might find hard to work. What has his
:36:46. > :36:52.contribution been? I wouldn't call him a tactician, I think the man was
:36:53. > :36:57.on a very strategic trajectory, and that hasn't been easy so he has had
:36:58. > :37:01.to manoeuvre around to keep himself focused on that trajectory. And I
:37:02. > :37:06.think his public persona hasn't always convinced us of that. But I
:37:07. > :37:11.do think there is a contribution here as John says in terms of
:37:12. > :37:17.reshaping the DUP in particular. But we will see how successful he has
:37:18. > :37:20.been as we go forward. John, will it be a dual monarchy, and will be
:37:21. > :37:26.those two individuals? I'm fairly sure it will be. Members will get a
:37:27. > :37:33.vote, and I can see a contest taken place. Sammy Wilson didn't rule
:37:34. > :37:36.himself out. It is only the one MEP, the MLAs that can vote. The DUP
:37:37. > :37:43.don't normally do internal contest. Join me for live coverage of
:37:44. > :37:46.Peter Robinson's conference speech this Saturday at noon on BBC2
:37:47. > :37:49.and also for Sunday Politics And, as the First Minister steps
:37:50. > :37:53.down after 40 years in politics, and the biggest band
:37:54. > :38:43.in the world returns to Belfast, Robinson, featured -- Robinson
:38:44. > :38:47.Peter, 15,994. No smiling for the cameras, no
:38:48. > :39:03.cringeworthy photo 1,400 years ago,
:39:04. > :39:07.Europe was in crisis.