:00:00. > :00:07.Swingeing job cuts at Bombardier, the latest twist in the ongoing saga
:00:08. > :00:10.over MLAs' expenses and both sides in the debate over BREXIT -
:00:11. > :00:37.the head of the agency with responsibility for growing
:00:38. > :00:41.the economy here, what more can be done to protect manufacturing jobs.
:00:42. > :00:43.As the war of words over expenses continues,
:00:44. > :00:46.will reforming the system make any difference?
:00:47. > :00:59.The Assembly commission it should be wind-up immediately as a useless
:01:00. > :01:02.body which has not performed any function whatsoever or being useful
:01:03. > :01:02.for the people in this part of the world.
:01:03. > :01:07.as the negotiations on a new deal continue, we'll hear the latest live
:01:08. > :01:09.from Brussels and ask a prominent Europhile
:01:10. > :01:11.and Eurosceptic what they think of David Cameron's plans.
:01:12. > :01:12.And in Commentators' Corner this week,
:01:13. > :01:21.PR consulant Sheila Davidson joins political blogger Chris Donnelly.
:01:22. > :01:23.The headlines were stark in the papers this morning,
:01:24. > :01:26.from 'Bombardier bombshell' to 'Devastation as a thousand jobs
:01:27. > :01:32.The firm's announcement on Tuesday that it's to shed a fifth
:01:33. > :01:35.of its workforce follows similar cuts at Mischel-inn and JTI
:01:36. > :01:43.So, as the impact of the latest round of job losses sinks in,
:01:44. > :01:46.is there a real threat to the future of the manufacturing sector here,
:01:47. > :01:48.and can anything more be done to protect it?
:01:49. > :01:51.Joining me now is the Chief Executive of Invest NI,
:01:52. > :01:54.After yesterday's announcement of 1,000 job losses,
:01:55. > :01:57.today Bombardier suspended its apprentice scheme as part
:01:58. > :02:02.What does that say about its commitment to new talent,
:02:03. > :02:10.which is the lifeblood of any business?
:02:11. > :02:17.I think you need to go back and look at the decisions that Bombardier
:02:18. > :02:23.have taken over the last 48 hours. At its heart is a reef formation of
:02:24. > :02:28.that organisation, a global organisation, but a rebasing of that
:02:29. > :02:31.organisation in Belfast to address competitiveness and cost and it is
:02:32. > :02:36.clearly understandable that in order to address those cost pressures that
:02:37. > :02:40.they would address the new intake of employees at the same time as they
:02:41. > :02:44.would deal with the painful situation for the existing employees
:02:45. > :02:48.that are going to find themselves out of work. It doesn't look like
:02:49. > :02:52.much of a commitment to the future. They had committed to the future of
:02:53. > :02:56.the existing apprenticeships they already had but the company is in a
:02:57. > :03:01.difficult position and I don't think anyone would underestimate it, a $5
:03:02. > :03:05.billion loss at a group level and some very stark decisions being
:03:06. > :03:10.taken in terms of the operation here in Belfast but I would repeat what
:03:11. > :03:13.the chief executive said, which is that Belfast is at the heart of the
:03:14. > :03:17.Bombardier operation and we must take some comfort for the future
:03:18. > :03:20.from that. That might be reassuring on one level, but there is always
:03:21. > :03:26.the danger that we get caught somewhere in the middle, that we are
:03:27. > :03:30.squeezed between political imperatives in Canada, with the
:03:31. > :03:33.Canadian taxpayer bailing the company out, and the low-cost
:03:34. > :03:37.manufacturing plants the company has in places like Morocco and Mexico.
:03:38. > :03:41.And that is exactly why Bombardier had been making the move is that
:03:42. > :03:47.they have, to move out of the lover Ali manufacturing into higher value
:03:48. > :03:51.and is why they have invested and that is exactly what those
:03:52. > :03:56.investment programmes are there to do, to invest in high-value
:03:57. > :04:01.manufacturing, which is composite manufacturing. That is why the money
:04:02. > :04:06.has been put in and we have invested ?135 million of taxpayer's money to
:04:07. > :04:09.position Bombardier in Belfast for the future of manufacturing. So we
:04:10. > :04:13.had Jonathan Bell saying this morning that he is convinced that
:04:14. > :04:17.Bombardier is you to stay. Bombardier is committed to Northern
:04:18. > :04:21.Ireland. The Belfast Buncombe he says, is secure, but there is no
:04:22. > :04:25.absolute obligation on Bombardier to stay here indefinitely. Do you
:04:26. > :04:29.accept that? There is no written down commercial agreement for them
:04:30. > :04:32.to stay, but you need to look a bit deeper to understand the stickiness
:04:33. > :04:38.of the investments that were made in Belfast. The sea -series win which
:04:39. > :04:45.is at the heart of the investment we have made worse patented and made
:04:46. > :04:52.with universities here in Northern Ireland. The ?525 million investment
:04:53. > :05:00.in one of the biggest clean rooms in Europe is here in Belfast -- the
:05:01. > :05:03.set. The cost of moving this operation is one of the things that
:05:04. > :05:07.gives us some comfort for the future that Belfast is that the heart of
:05:08. > :05:11.the Bombardier operation. That is great if the C-series is a success,
:05:12. > :05:14.but things are not looking good for it at the moment. We take some
:05:15. > :05:19.comfort from the latest orders that have come in from Air Canada, but
:05:20. > :05:22.this is what businesses do, they make investments from the future. We
:05:23. > :05:26.would be in a different situation today we have not made the
:05:27. > :05:29.investment on the C-series facility in Belfast, because we would be
:05:30. > :05:34.looking at would be the continual eating away of the low value
:05:35. > :05:38.manufacturing, where as now we have an opportunity for the future with
:05:39. > :05:42.that high-value investment. That is fine so long as Bombardier does not
:05:43. > :05:46.find ways to upscale in places like Morocco and Mexico and move for a
:05:47. > :05:52.better high-value option the production of the C-series from
:05:53. > :05:57.Belfast to places like that. That will be a continual process. What is
:05:58. > :06:00.low value manufacturing today will be higher value manufacturing
:06:01. > :06:04.tomorrow, and that is a constant race for operations here in Northern
:06:05. > :06:09.Ireland and across the UK and in the developed countries to stay ahead of
:06:10. > :06:12.that game, to keep leading age manufacturing and development, to
:06:13. > :06:14.make sure that they keep moving up the value chain. So here is the
:06:15. > :06:17.question I think people will be interested in. Without any written
:06:18. > :06:23.guarantee that Bombardier is here for the long term, you indefinitely,
:06:24. > :06:28.has it been good value for money for the public purse to be pumping tens
:06:29. > :06:31.of millions of pounds into a company like Bombardier? I think you can
:06:32. > :06:36.only answer that question in the future. We are at the crucial point
:06:37. > :06:41.for the C-series. They committed to having 300 orders that the initial
:06:42. > :06:45.point. The aircraft has been certified. Even their harshest
:06:46. > :06:48.competitors would agree that the aircraft is world leading in terms
:06:49. > :06:52.of fuel efficiency and noise reduction and customer experience
:06:53. > :06:55.inside the cabin. It is a world-class aircraft and we are
:06:56. > :06:58.proud that it has been developed you in Belfast, but you need to remember
:06:59. > :07:04.that this is the first aircraft that has been developed in the past 25
:07:05. > :07:07.years in the single line and that is a massive challenge bearing in mind
:07:08. > :07:14.competitors, so we need to look to the future. A big up sign is that we
:07:15. > :07:19.have those orders from Air Canada and we have some other companies on
:07:20. > :07:22.the back of that Singapore airshow today talking more positively about
:07:23. > :07:26.the C-series and where it might fit in their fleets in the future. So
:07:27. > :07:30.you are committed to continuing to back Bombardier in the future, but
:07:31. > :07:37.do you accept and are upfront about the fact that it is a gamble? Do you
:07:38. > :07:40.really clearly need to understand where Government fits in the funding
:07:41. > :07:45.cycle. I know there are many people who would share the underlying
:07:46. > :07:50.comments that we should back winners and we should only be funding things
:07:51. > :07:55.that are certain. I am just asking for clarity that it is a gamble.
:07:56. > :07:59.Well, it is not a gamble. It is a considered risk. We are in the game
:08:00. > :08:01.of funders of last resort. We should not be funding companies that could
:08:02. > :08:06.secure funding from equity companies or from the banks. That is not our
:08:07. > :08:08.game. We are not sure to displace banks. We are here to make things
:08:09. > :08:12.happen that without Government support they would not have been
:08:13. > :08:28.here. Well, it is a gamble in that you
:08:29. > :08:32.have no absolute guarantee of success. And as do many businesses
:08:33. > :08:34.when the invest for the future. No absolute guarantee of where they are
:08:35. > :08:37.going. We are a business development body. We are here to make things
:08:38. > :08:39.happen in Northern Ireland that otherwise wouldn't an involved and
:08:40. > :08:42.that is a fund of last resort is risk. We accept that risk. And does
:08:43. > :08:45.invest NI in your view currently happy to get it needs to do the job
:08:46. > :08:48.it is required to do? Clearly, as we sit here today, we have a wonderful
:08:49. > :08:50.record as the most successful development agency on these islands.
:08:51. > :08:53.Over the last four years, we have secured almost 40,000 jobs for
:08:54. > :08:57.Northern Ireland which mixes in first place in terms of the regions
:08:58. > :09:00.the United Kingdom and that is with the toolkit we have today.
:09:01. > :09:06.Obviously, we look to the future, now that the things are based on
:09:07. > :09:12.corporation tax and we add to that cost proposition which bits as any
:09:13. > :09:14.unique position in these islands in terms of a combination of those
:09:15. > :09:18.things so I looked very positively to the future in terms of adding
:09:19. > :09:20.that new jewel to our toolkit and finding new investment that
:09:21. > :09:29.otherwise we would not have been able to attract. -- tool. Soothing
:09:30. > :09:37.investment is increasing? In my view, it is. All we are looking for.
:09:38. > :09:41.The global investment market breaks into two centres, cost centres and
:09:42. > :09:45.profit centres. I am not choosing profit centres because I have a
:09:46. > :09:49.neighbour on the silencer is a better proposition than I am. We
:09:50. > :09:53.tease cost centres including high-value cost centres such as the
:09:54. > :09:58.legal and the professional services. I am now able to fish in a much
:09:59. > :10:02.wider pool. I have not lost the cost centre proposition but I add a cost
:10:03. > :10:06.centre one to it so we should be able to do more with that. So you
:10:07. > :10:10.are very positive tonight and I note that the minister responsible for
:10:11. > :10:14.enterprise trade and investment, Jonathan Bell, was very positive
:10:15. > :10:17.this morning and said that manufacturing in Northern Ireland is
:10:18. > :10:20.in a better place than it has been perhaps in recent years and it has
:10:21. > :10:24.delivered jobs, but can you understand why people watching this
:10:25. > :10:29.seed is in the context of 3000 jobs being lost in the very recent past
:10:30. > :10:34.in east Belfast and in Ballymena and the wonder how you do square that
:10:35. > :10:39.circle. And I share his optimism both looking backwards and forwards,
:10:40. > :10:45.but nevertheless it is very disappointing and I can understand
:10:46. > :10:52.because I have family members and friends in some of those sites, both
:10:53. > :10:58.in Bombardier and in JTI Gallahers and I know the pain this will cause
:10:59. > :11:02.to individuals. If you look backwards, out of those 39,000 jobs,
:11:03. > :11:07.12,000 are in the manufacturing spear, the highest we have ever had.
:11:08. > :11:10.3600 of them in the last year alone. The majority of those have not yet
:11:11. > :11:13.been created, so while it is difficult and disappointing for
:11:14. > :11:17.those people, we are coming from the position that we have never been in
:11:18. > :11:20.before of having an unprecedented high order book, if you want to put
:11:21. > :11:27.those words around it flowing into the future. And very quickly, this
:11:28. > :11:31.is all set against the context of the possibility of a British exit
:11:32. > :11:34.from the European Union. Would that not be potentially catastrophic by
:11:35. > :11:38.the manufacturing sector in Northern Ireland, because some people think
:11:39. > :11:42.that. I think the things need to be clarified. I cannot answer at the
:11:43. > :11:47.moment. First of all, 60% of our exports go to European markets, the
:11:48. > :11:51.majority into the Republic of Ireland. Companies will not make
:11:52. > :11:55.decisions based on emotion. There will be an emotional element to it.
:11:56. > :11:58.Companies make decisions on the clarity of the business case for the
:11:59. > :12:04.future. They will want to know what those export markets are like.
:12:05. > :12:09.Warren investment is pitched clearly about accessing the European market.
:12:10. > :12:13.-- foreign investment. What will those pitches look like in future?
:12:14. > :12:18.We need clarity on that. Based on the funding that we have and the
:12:19. > :12:21.vast majority of the funding is European funds. People say that we
:12:22. > :12:26.put in more than we get out and that is fine but will we get the same
:12:27. > :12:29.distribution? We get more than our fair share because of our past at
:12:30. > :12:33.the moment and the challenges that we face. Will we get that same
:12:34. > :12:36.distribution in the future? If someone can give is clarity around
:12:37. > :12:40.those three things in business will be in a much better position to make
:12:41. > :12:43.a decision. Very interesting to hear your thoughts and we will develop
:12:44. > :12:49.was further with our other guests later. The political week at
:12:50. > :12:51.Stormont has been developed by one story.
:12:52. > :12:53.The stand-off between the Assembly Commission
:12:54. > :12:55.and The Independent Financial Review Panel revolves around claims that
:12:56. > :12:57.expenses rules were not properly enforced.
:12:58. > :13:00.This very public row has provoked a war of words between the body that
:13:01. > :13:01.sets the regulations and the organisation
:13:02. > :13:05.It's resulted in the Assembly Commission asking the Westminster
:13:06. > :13:07.expenses body, IPSA, to take a look at how Stormont
:13:08. > :13:16.Here's our Political Correspondent, Stephen Walker.
:13:17. > :13:23.It is an illustration of how disconnected so many people at
:13:24. > :13:27.Stormont appear to have become. Where public money is concerned, to
:13:28. > :13:33.allay the concerns that the public may have, let's look at how we can
:13:34. > :13:35.do things better. It is an extraordinary situation when you
:13:36. > :13:39.have the people who set the rules and the people who enforce those
:13:40. > :13:45.rules really at war with each other and very publicly. Rather like
:13:46. > :13:52.comedy, timing is everything in politics, and this row is the last
:13:53. > :14:01.thing that members mac -- members Max need. Politicians would rather
:14:02. > :14:05.answer questions about the health service, the economy and education,
:14:06. > :14:13.but instead the talk shows are discussing alliances and expenses.
:14:14. > :14:17.The origins of this row lie in a BBC Spotlight podcast in November 20 14.
:14:18. > :14:25.One of the programmes reported that Sinn Fein members claimed around
:14:26. > :14:31.?700,000 expenses to pay research services Ireland over a 10-year
:14:32. > :14:34.period. Last year, after a question from Jim Allison, attention switched
:14:35. > :14:38.to the Assembly commission, which is made up of the Stormont's largest
:14:39. > :14:53.parties and is responsible for enforcing the expenses rules.
:14:54. > :15:02.But on Sunday Politics and member of The Independent panel which sets the
:15:03. > :15:07.rules to a different course and said ?150,000 should not have been paid.
:15:08. > :15:12.That is contrary to the determination. And the Commission,
:15:13. > :15:18.if it thinks this is oche, is quite wrong. That's true a sharp response
:15:19. > :15:24.from the Assembly. What is of significant concern to me and regret
:15:25. > :15:30.is that the chief executive was working directly with the panel on
:15:31. > :15:35.these issues and I am extremely disappointed at the publicity that
:15:36. > :15:38.has been generated. Then a leaked report to the northern Short
:15:39. > :15:43.revealed that the Westminster expenses watchdog The Independent
:15:44. > :15:48.Parliamentary Standards Authority had concerns about the way the storm
:15:49. > :15:55.and expenses scheme was operated. Ipsa was told that in one or two
:15:56. > :15:56.cases MLAs having had a claim refused a senior member of Assembly
:15:57. > :17:13.staff. Ipsa concluded: us that we should move to the type
:17:14. > :17:22.of model that runs at We are very happy to operate under a
:17:23. > :17:27.similar model to Westminster, as has been suggested to us many times. I
:17:28. > :17:30.think it would be a clear system and much more straightforward if we had
:17:31. > :17:36.the one body that makes determinations rather than divided
:17:37. > :17:41.which is currently the case here. Time appears to be something that
:17:42. > :17:44.the Assembly has not got. It has to come to a conclusion within a matter
:17:45. > :17:47.of months because the independent financial review panel Hadi remit
:17:48. > :17:51.which only lasted for five years and that is coming to an end very soon.
:17:52. > :17:55.The question is whether the members will be able to push this back until
:17:56. > :18:01.after the election. The Assembly commission has asked the Westminster
:18:02. > :18:04.commission to review the Stormont expenses system. It also wants to
:18:05. > :18:05.strengthen the effectiveness of the local independent financial review
:18:06. > :18:13.panel. Stephen Walker there
:18:14. > :18:15.with the background to a remarkable story - and at this point
:18:16. > :18:18.I had hoped to be talking to Stormont's Speaker and the chair
:18:19. > :18:20.of the Assembly Commission, He agreed several weeks ago
:18:21. > :18:24.to join me in the studio tonight - but when this latest expenses row
:18:25. > :18:27.erupted he pulled out We'd also hoped to talk
:18:28. > :18:30.to the chief executive of Ipsa, the Parliamentary expenses watchdog
:18:31. > :18:32.that's now reviewing the Assembly's procedures, but this afternoon that
:18:33. > :18:35.organisation said it wouldn't now be appropriate to appear
:18:36. > :18:36.on the programme. However, tonight there has been
:18:37. > :18:39.another twist in the story - and Chris Page is here
:18:40. > :18:49.to talk us through it. A strongly worded statement has been
:18:50. > :18:55.issued to the BBC. What does it say. The Independent
:18:56. > :19:00.financial review panel are taking a clear and firm line in that they say
:19:01. > :19:06.they are in the right and they will stick to their position. When it
:19:07. > :19:10.comes to the ?150,000 paid in 2012 the panel say it remains The View
:19:11. > :19:15.these expenses should not have been claimed or paid. The panel also deal
:19:16. > :19:19.with the suggestion that they made a mistake in a ruling in March 2012
:19:20. > :19:24.and then tries to amend it later that year in December. They say that
:19:25. > :19:30.is incorrect to suggest they made a mistake. They say they are clear
:19:31. > :19:35.that the March 2012 determination allows MLAs to employ staff for
:19:36. > :19:42.research. They say that did not allowed contract providers. It is a
:19:43. > :19:46.restatement of the panels position. It deals in factual matters that you
:19:47. > :19:51.get the impression that the panel feel strongly about this.
:19:52. > :19:55.This has been going on in public for almost one week. All side backing
:19:56. > :20:03.down. The opposite. That is right. There
:20:04. > :20:08.is no meeting of minds. There are two public bodies who see things
:20:09. > :20:12.completely differently. That panel and the Assembly Commission will
:20:13. > :20:17.meet next week. There is no sign that this public disagreement is to
:20:18. > :20:22.being resolved. More to come on that one.
:20:23. > :20:25.By tomorrow afternoon the campaign over whether or not the UK should
:20:26. > :20:28.remain in the EU could be under way, Cabinet members may well have
:20:29. > :20:30.resigned, the battle lines will have been drawn.
:20:31. > :20:32.In a moment the arguments for and against in the studio,
:20:33. > :20:35.but first let's get the latest from the negotiations in Brussels.
:20:36. > :20:39.RTE's Europe Editor, Tony Connelly is in our studio.
:20:40. > :20:49.Where are we as we speak this evening?
:20:50. > :20:56.The heads of Government met at the outset of the beginning of the
:20:57. > :21:00.summit and all 28 made the presentations on the British issue.
:21:01. > :21:04.David Cameron made a staunch and passionate defence of his demands
:21:05. > :21:08.for key reforms which he can then sell to the British electorate. This
:21:09. > :21:14.session they moved into a dinner which was dominated by the refugee
:21:15. > :21:18.crisis. After that they have been getting into smaller bilateral
:21:19. > :21:26.meetings, smaller huddled groups of heads of Government and also the
:21:27. > :21:31.representatives of the heads of Government. They will beget in into
:21:32. > :21:40.the nitty-gritty. The problem is that David Cameron wants key reforms
:21:41. > :21:45.across for policy areas. As the meeting has gone on to day it is
:21:46. > :21:48.clear that across that spectrum of policy areas individual countries
:21:49. > :21:54.are getting more and more resentful, more and more twitchy about the
:21:55. > :21:58.things that they want, the things that they don't want. The Eastern
:21:59. > :22:01.European countries and the Central European countries have realised
:22:02. > :22:05.that they are facing a scenario where they feel that they are being
:22:06. > :22:09.asked to make the biggest sacrifices in terms of what David Cameron
:22:10. > :22:12.wants, and they are suddenly realising that they are going to
:22:13. > :22:16.look like losers out of this process and local back to their capitals and
:22:17. > :22:21.that they have been defeated. They will be digging their in and looking
:22:22. > :22:27.for scraps, looking for things that they can see that they have one,
:22:28. > :22:32.concessions on. And to give you a sense of the kind of detail, David
:22:33. > :22:37.Cameron wants to limit EU migration to the UK, he wants to restrict in
:22:38. > :22:43.work benefits that people get. He wants to restrict child benefit. See
:22:44. > :22:48.for example a Polish worker in the UK can send child benefit back to
:22:49. > :22:53.his children living in Poland. David Cameron wants to index those
:22:54. > :22:59.payments to the standard of living, the cost of living in Poland. The
:23:00. > :23:05.entire thing hinges on whether that will only affect newcomers to the UK
:23:06. > :23:09.after this deal is done or will it affects people who are already
:23:10. > :23:15.living and working in the UK. That is the kind of nitty-gritty
:23:16. > :23:18.scrapping that is going on and that will go on throughout the night and
:23:19. > :23:22.then the leaders will come back tomorrow morning at 11 o'clock to
:23:23. > :23:27.try to get the ball rolling again. If you had to call it in one
:23:28. > :23:35.sentence, it is impossible to be sure, what is your hunch? Everybody
:23:36. > :23:39.wants Britain to remain in the European Union and nobody wants to
:23:40. > :23:42.press the nuclear button that would push David Cameron out so he will
:23:43. > :23:47.get some kind of arguments tomorrow but whether it is the kind of
:23:48. > :23:51.jubilant, triumphant deal that he wants that he can sell to the
:23:52. > :23:58.British electorate, that is another thing. Thank you.
:23:59. > :24:01.And Claire Hanna from the SDLP and the TUV leader, Jim Allister,
:24:02. > :24:17.Jim Allister, one of those areas of renegotiation is about restricting
:24:18. > :24:21.benefits for EU citizens living in the UK. What do you think of the
:24:22. > :24:26.Irish Government position on Republic of Ireland citizens in the
:24:27. > :24:31.UK having a different arrangement should UK decide to stay in the EU?
:24:32. > :24:41.I do not think that would be appropriate. There is a need for the
:24:42. > :24:45.unanimity of an approach. All this Prime Minister is doing is tinkering
:24:46. > :24:49.around the edges. They use a goal he said he was going for a fundamental
:24:50. > :25:03.change of our relationship which would be in Kabul. He is going for
:25:04. > :25:13.something now which is very minimal. -- which would be irrevocable. What
:25:14. > :25:19.he is going for now would not liberate our courts from being
:25:20. > :25:24.subject to the European Court of Justice which will not liberate our
:25:25. > :25:28.trade. He is asking for virtually nothing and this getting virtually
:25:29. > :25:31.nothing. No doubt tomorrow he will claim some victory but I do not
:25:32. > :25:49.think anyone will be convinced about that. Claire Hanna, it was an issue
:25:50. > :25:54.raised by the Irish ambassador to the UK, and he made the point that
:25:55. > :25:59.the issue of Irish people living in the UK PDC EU by many years. As
:26:00. > :26:03.their merits and what he was talking about? Yes, and there is also merits
:26:04. > :26:09.in the issues that David Cameron is trying to negotiate on for the UK
:26:10. > :26:15.and other countries. But regardless of what he comes back with there are
:26:16. > :26:18.people, and I would include Jim Allister, who are not Eurosceptic,
:26:19. > :26:22.they will reject that ever David Cameron comes back with, so they
:26:23. > :26:27.will not engage in a reasonable fashion with the terms. But
:26:28. > :26:30.regardless, even as they currently stand in Europe, most people would
:26:31. > :26:36.see it as a no-brainer and that is quite the Chambers of Commerce
:26:37. > :26:41.survey said that 81% of businesses would opt to stay here and 10% still
:26:42. > :26:46.do not know saw it is a tiny minority and that is rapidly that
:26:47. > :26:51.across sectors and agriculture, fisheries, small business as well.
:26:52. > :26:55.It would be devastating for Northern Ireland to leave. Our fishing
:26:56. > :27:00.industry has been devastated by the EU. The Commons fisheries policy has
:27:01. > :27:06.reduced the industry to a shadow of what it is. We are told what we can
:27:07. > :27:12.catch, when we can catch, what we have two throwback, all courtesy of
:27:13. > :27:16.the EU. The fundamental that is for us as a trading nation where are
:27:17. > :27:21.best interests lie. Already less than half our trade is with the EU.
:27:22. > :27:25.Most of our trade is with the rest of the world where the growth
:27:26. > :27:27.markets. Yet as a member of the EU we cannot even make a trade
:27:28. > :27:41.Agreement with our mean cheating partners. On the fisheries, the
:27:42. > :27:48.investment that came from Europe that allowed that industry to
:27:49. > :27:52.modernise, but all of the downturn in the fishing industry is being
:27:53. > :27:55.blamed on the EU when in fact it was to do with the fact that the UK was
:27:56. > :28:08.fishing I slammed mortars and Iceland stopped that and the EU did
:28:09. > :28:13.regulate. -- fishing the waters of Iceland.
:28:14. > :28:20.The American President has said we would be foolish to leave. It is not
:28:21. > :28:24.for him to say. If foreign investment is what we are going
:28:25. > :28:29.after quite clearly our position as a two-year grip is vital to that and
:28:30. > :28:34.the other thing as even if you concede the UK is a net contributor
:28:35. > :28:40.in terms of fees in and glance out, and that would be taking out the
:28:41. > :28:45.other benefits, there is absolutely no likelihood that any savings
:28:46. > :28:48.George Osborne makes will be spent in Northern Ireland. ?20 billion.
:28:49. > :28:54.Currently being poured into Brussels. The reality is you have no
:28:55. > :28:58.idea how much of that apparent saving would come back to somewhere
:28:59. > :29:02.like Northern Ireland and nor have you any guaranteed that bilateral
:29:03. > :29:06.trade deals could be sorted out between the UK and the Republic of
:29:07. > :29:15.Ireland. They would have to go through the EU and the Nick Bitel
:29:16. > :29:21.Levy on that. It is a certainty that we have ?20 million more per and on
:29:22. > :29:27.our own people rather than the EU. This is not a decision, a parochial
:29:28. > :29:33.decision, this is a national decision. There is no guarantee that
:29:34. > :29:40.the 20 million with get back to Northern Ireland. That is part of
:29:41. > :29:46.the scaremongering of those scared of the UK standing on its own feet.
:29:47. > :29:48.You cannot give a guarantee. The British Government would have to
:29:49. > :29:58.look after its own farmers, fishermen, businesses, of course it
:29:59. > :30:01.would. The second point is the point about trade. This scare story that
:30:02. > :30:08.there would be no trade agreements in the list of the EU. There are
:30:09. > :30:13.other countries outside the EU which are part of a trade Alliance such as
:30:14. > :30:18.Turkey. Secondly because the EU sells as more than we sell them they
:30:19. > :30:23.need as more than we need them and they will be more anxious than we
:30:24. > :30:27.will to have a trade Alliance. There is no certainty and in a world of
:30:28. > :30:30.uncertainty the last thing you want to do is leave the most stable
:30:31. > :30:39.market in the world and retreat into our own shell. 3% immediately of our
:30:40. > :30:45.GDP would go. I was reading a report today that mentioned one in eight
:30:46. > :30:52.jobs. I do not want to bring it down to pounds shillings and pence. The
:30:53. > :30:59.growth is elsewhere. It is not. It is. Investors look for stability.
:31:00. > :31:04.Other currencies have had wobbles. It is the values of Europe, the free
:31:05. > :31:08.movement of people, working in cooperation, all of the challenges
:31:09. > :31:13.that we deal with, climate change, refugee issues, and all of the
:31:14. > :31:21.opportunities. They do not stop at Borders. To say that we will deal
:31:22. > :31:27.with it in our own way. These are empty scare stories that cause the
:31:28. > :31:30.SDLP and others to say we should join the euro. How wrong they were
:31:31. > :31:37.about that and how wrong they are about this. It is the same argument.
:31:38. > :31:43.We must keep up with the rest of Europe. You must put all of your
:31:44. > :31:47.eggs in the one basket. What a disaster that would have been if we
:31:48. > :31:53.had joined the euro. What a disaster would it be if we exited and
:31:54. > :31:56.sterling dropped by 20%. It will not because we will have growth in our
:31:57. > :32:01.economy because we will be free to trade with the rest of the world.
:32:02. > :32:05.Let's pass the 42nd because I need to ask you about expenses. Jim
:32:06. > :32:09.Allister, you brought this issue back into the spotlight last week by
:32:10. > :32:12.asking a question which then found its way into the public discourse.
:32:13. > :32:21.Since then, there has been a stand-off between the bodies. Is
:32:22. > :32:27.re-engaging IPSA the way to deal with this issue? We need to have a
:32:28. > :32:32.body like the Westminster body taking charge of expenses. Paying
:32:33. > :32:34.them out, checking them and prosecuting people for wrong claims.
:32:35. > :32:39.All that the commission is asking them to do is to report that they
:32:40. > :32:47.want to will be part themselves and we saw what that did. ?700,000 paid
:32:48. > :32:51.to a front organisation, for Sinn Fein, which cannot produce one scrap
:32:52. > :32:55.of research for what that money was for. And then it was swept under the
:32:56. > :33:00.carpet and the cover-up is the worst part of the scandal and even tonight
:33:01. > :33:05.trying to swim against the obvious findings of the panel and trying to
:33:06. > :33:12.pretend that they didn't do wrong when they blatantly did. OK. We
:33:13. > :33:15.didn't have those organisations on the programme to make those cases
:33:16. > :33:18.and it was not just Sinn Fein that was involved in that particular
:33:19. > :33:20.story. Thank you both for joining us.
:33:21. > :33:23.A clear case of leave versus stay there.
:33:24. > :33:26.Now it's over to the corner to get the views of tonight's commentators,
:33:27. > :33:38.Welcome to both. You have been listening very carefully to
:33:39. > :33:42.everything that has been said in a fairly packed programme. Let's start
:33:43. > :33:45.with the issue of Alastair Hamilton and those job losses. Where you
:33:46. > :33:52.reassured by what Alistair had to say about the way in which Invest NI
:33:53. > :33:58.and the Government is trying to keep jobs? Absolutely. I think he gave a
:33:59. > :34:03.very coherent performance and it was a statement about where we actually
:34:04. > :34:06.are. I think there is the real difficulty when you see a large
:34:07. > :34:09.number of jobs going to panic and in fact we need to be looking at the
:34:10. > :34:12.sort of thing that could happen to us and it is going to keep happening
:34:13. > :34:16.to us and it has happened in the past with Bombardier and they
:34:17. > :34:19.brought jobs back again and it could come back again in the future and it
:34:20. > :34:22.is what we do about those people now is what we should be focusing on and
:34:23. > :34:27.not just scaremongering and creating all signs of dissent and division in
:34:28. > :34:34.the communities. Well you as positive? Wow, I think he was
:34:35. > :34:37.focusing on corporation tax as something which will attract jobs
:34:38. > :34:41.here. I think the focus politicians have as of yesterday evening and
:34:42. > :34:45.this morning was on commiserating with the employees who are going to
:34:46. > :34:48.lose their jobs but also defending their record to date in terms of
:34:49. > :34:53.this is the fourth quarter in which unemployment has gone down. They
:34:54. > :34:56.made reference to the 1000 manufacturing jobs which is the
:34:57. > :35:03.highest since 2008, so there is a balance there. He made the point of
:35:04. > :35:11.it being a gamble of a considered risk, but it is just the nature of
:35:12. > :35:15.what he has to do if it is a case that the high-end jobs that are
:35:16. > :35:19.required, if we do start to attract them. Let's speak about those
:35:20. > :35:26.expenses which is the story of the past week. Interesting developments
:35:27. > :35:31.from the IFRP not resigning or standing down at all. They can't
:35:32. > :35:37.both be right. No, they can't. I think what we need to get past you
:35:38. > :35:41.is that this is a wrangle about pedantic points. There is a major
:35:42. > :35:47.point of principle year witches are we funding politicians for their
:35:48. > :35:52.personal gain or for party political gain? Expenses are being used as a
:35:53. > :35:56.battering ram and I think we need to clear the air a bit here and go back
:35:57. > :35:59.and say what expenses do we actually gave individual members to run the
:36:00. > :36:04.business of their constituency offices? What did he use it for? I
:36:05. > :36:07.think they should be given in this tiny area of Northern Ireland a set
:36:08. > :36:10.amount of expenses and they should have two produce those accounts and
:36:11. > :36:17.say what they used them for and those things should be audited. That
:36:18. > :36:20.is not the controversy. It is who actually polices it. I understand
:36:21. > :36:24.that but the point that I am saying is this is an argument that we can
:36:25. > :36:27.all talk about and we can perpetuate it but we will not get to the root
:36:28. > :36:31.of what is actually happening. I think politicians have to be very
:36:32. > :36:34.careful. We know that the issues of expenses is having a corrosive
:36:35. > :36:39.effect in terms of public confidence in politicians. We saw during the
:36:40. > :36:45.week when various people came out very strongly defending their
:36:46. > :36:49.position. We saw others saying that the need to look again at the issue
:36:50. > :36:54.of openness and transparency and we know that a report came out today
:36:55. > :36:57.looking at the finances of the parties during the Westminster
:36:58. > :37:00.campaign last year. I don't think these issues will go away and I
:37:01. > :37:05.think the parties will end up having to move towards a IPSA model because
:37:06. > :37:10.they will meet to engender that confidence. But it is a hugely
:37:11. > :37:15.expensive way of actually monitoring a relatively small amount of money
:37:16. > :37:18.in real terms. This is because of the accusations of Howard is being
:37:19. > :37:22.used by the point is we can remove that problem, we can get back to the
:37:23. > :37:25.reality of what politicians are actually there to do deliver their
:37:26. > :37:31.constituencies. Livestock finally and briefly about -- let's speak
:37:32. > :37:35.only briefly about the possible British exit from the European
:37:36. > :37:39.Union. What do you make of what we heard tonight? Well, gain, I think
:37:40. > :37:43.what is clear is that we know nothing. We have no idea what is
:37:44. > :37:50.going to come out of this negotiation. The Finnish Finance
:37:51. > :37:57.ministers said tonight that they always pull a rabbit out of the hat.
:37:58. > :38:00.It is not clear what we will have but we will not have the far
:38:01. > :38:01.reaching changes that David Cameron wanted to have.
:38:02. > :38:03.That's it from The View for this week.
:38:04. > :38:06.Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC One.
:38:07. > :38:07.So, as the EU negotiations continue in Brussels,
:38:08. > :38:10.the arguments remain very familiar - though a lot has changed
:38:11. > :38:14.since the UK was last asked the question back in 1975.