:00:00. > :00:00.It's been dubbed the "Arlene campaign" -
:00:00. > :00:00.with just a week to polling day, we'll hear from Arlene Foster
:00:07. > :00:10.Plus the cost of Stormont golden handshakes.
:00:11. > :00:39.The race to Stormont is in its final stretch.
:00:40. > :00:42.This time next week, it'll be all over bar the counting.
:00:43. > :00:47.For the DUP, it's been an election campaign all about Arlene.
:00:48. > :00:53.She tells me she is determined to remain as First Minister. The first
:00:54. > :00:56.target is to come back as the largest party because it is
:00:57. > :01:02.important because there is a Unionist majority that we have a
:01:03. > :01:06.Unionist first and a stir. Cashing in on clocking out, are retiring
:01:07. > :01:13.MLAs are to get a one-off payment between them worth almost half a
:01:14. > :01:16.one-off payment between them worth almost half ?1 million. You are
:01:17. > :01:19.going in to do your job and to help people, if people begrudge me at, I
:01:20. > :01:27.do not think anyone in my constituency will do that. With
:01:28. > :01:31.their thoughts on that -- And with their thoughts on that
:01:32. > :01:35.and the rest of the week's politics in commentators' corner are Newton
:01:36. > :01:38.Emerson and Patricia MacBride. This time next week,
:01:39. > :01:40.the polls will have closed and the 276 Assembly candidates
:01:41. > :01:42.will have a nervous wait to find out if their campaigning
:01:43. > :01:45.hit the mark with the voters. as far as the party leaders
:01:46. > :01:49.are concerned, of course - and perhaps none more
:01:50. > :01:52.so than for the DUP leader, Arlene Foster, who's determined
:01:53. > :01:54.to hold on to the number one slot When I spoke to Arlene Foster
:01:55. > :01:59.earlier this evening, I began by asking her
:02:00. > :02:02.if she's confident she can improve on the DUP's strong
:02:03. > :02:14.performance in 2011. we understand that over this last
:02:15. > :02:18.period of time we have had two elections, and of the last three,
:02:19. > :02:24.were Sinn Fein were the larger party, we know it will be tough, but
:02:25. > :02:30.I am putting a lot of effort in. I am trying to lead from the front,
:02:31. > :02:35.going across the country, I have been to every constituency, I finish
:02:36. > :02:40.in castles are at it tomorrow. I am putting my best foot forward. Do you
:02:41. > :02:46.accept that fewer than 38 seats will look like failure on your part? Not
:02:47. > :02:50.at all. Over the past three elections, two of those Sinn Fein
:02:51. > :02:56.were the larger party, it is a battle for the hearts and minds of
:02:57. > :03:01.the people. I am going out after every vote and I look to return all
:03:02. > :03:05.of my candidates, there are 44 standing, they are excellent and I
:03:06. > :03:10.will be working hard to get the maximum number returned. Is that the
:03:11. > :03:14.target? The first target is to come back as the largest party because I
:03:15. > :03:36.think it is important that because there is a Unionist majority that
:03:37. > :03:40.we have a Unionist First Minister. I think it would be a terrible
:03:41. > :03:43.situation if we had a Sinn Fein First Minister. That would not
:03:44. > :03:45.represent the population as a whole. In January, just after you took over
:03:46. > :03:48.leadership, you said that I might come back with 40 seats and we
:03:49. > :03:51.discussed if that was the target, it was wasn't it? I am focused on the
:03:52. > :03:54.fact that we do not take the electorate for granted, there has
:03:55. > :03:57.not been a vote cast yet, we are still in the middle of the campaign
:03:58. > :03:59.and we need to make sure we get the maximum number returned. If you come
:04:00. > :04:03.back with fewer than 38, your critics will say it has been a
:04:04. > :04:07.failure. Of course they will, I am sure they are already getting their
:04:08. > :04:13.line ready. For me it is important that I gave leadership across the
:04:14. > :04:17.country, I am doing that and trying to get the maximum number of party
:04:18. > :04:22.members returned. Why do you have to be First Minister? No one goes into
:04:23. > :04:27.an election looking to come second. We are looking to win the election
:04:28. > :04:33.and that is why it is important. If you ask that question of Nicola
:04:34. > :04:38.Sturgeon, she would be amused by it. It is absurd to say it does not
:04:39. > :04:41.matter who is First Minister. It is important for the people of Northern
:04:42. > :04:47.Ireland that they have a Unionist First Minister and I am asking them
:04:48. > :04:51.to support us. It is different, it is not the same as Scotland because
:04:52. > :04:58.we have a First Minister and a Deputy First Minister who are equal
:04:59. > :05:02.in the role, it is a joint office. When I spoke to Martin McGuiness, he
:05:03. > :05:06.said he was not that bothered about it. He would like to be the biggest
:05:07. > :05:13.party and the first thing he would do is offer you the possibility to
:05:14. > :05:20.have a joint First Minister 's title. He says your playlist for a
:05:21. > :05:23.different reason. It is not. If you speak to people on the street, they
:05:24. > :05:28.are saying that it is important that they have a First Minister that
:05:29. > :05:31.speaks for them. It is symbolically important and it is important
:05:32. > :05:35.because whoever is First Minister has the largest number of seats and
:05:36. > :05:40.will have a larger number of people around the Executive table. It is
:05:41. > :05:43.important that we have a Unionist majority on the Executive because
:05:44. > :05:49.that represents the views of the people of Northern Ireland, it is
:05:50. > :05:52.not just a symbolic issue but I do not underplay the issue of
:05:53. > :06:03.symbolism, it is very important in Northern Ireland. The sky would not
:06:04. > :06:05.fall down if Martin McGuiness was First Minister. This is about
:06:06. > :06:08.Unionist politics, you telling Unionist to make sure that they vote
:06:09. > :06:12.for your candidates. RUC is he saying that Martin McGuiness has a
:06:13. > :06:17.similar vision to me? He has a completely different vision. I have
:06:18. > :06:24.a vision of us playing a full part in the UK, building on a strong
:06:25. > :06:29.base, to build... He could not do anything without your say-so anyway.
:06:30. > :06:34.I want a strong open regional economy, that is important. His
:06:35. > :06:38.vision and we heard the debate at the weekend is to take us into a
:06:39. > :06:42.united Ireland. That is his vision and that is a different vision to
:06:43. > :06:47.the majority of people in Robben Island. What is the nature of your
:06:48. > :06:52.relationship with Martin McGuiness, I asked you about this and you said
:06:53. > :06:55.it was workmanlike and you would work in partnership for the good of
:06:56. > :07:03.Northern Ireland but you would not be drawn on whether it was friendly
:07:04. > :07:09.or a warm, you danced around those adjectives. It is what it is, he is
:07:10. > :07:13.elected by a number of people in Northern Ireland, I am elected and I
:07:14. > :07:17.was elected as the leader of the party which had the largest number
:07:18. > :07:21.of votes and under the structures of the Belfast agreement that means in
:07:22. > :07:29.a mandatory Coalition that we have to work together. It is workmanlike.
:07:30. > :07:34.People know with my background that it is difficult to work with Martin
:07:35. > :07:38.McGuiness, it is a challenge, but I do it because I believe that we have
:07:39. > :07:44.to work for the good of the people of Northern Ireland. Talk about the
:07:45. > :07:49.cult of personality, there are darlings candidates, Arlene 's plan,
:07:50. > :07:54.there is a lot riding on the voters buying into you. I am the leader of
:07:55. > :07:57.the party and I have been the leader since last December, that was
:07:58. > :08:03.something I was privileged and humbled to be asked to -- to do.
:08:04. > :08:07.Since then I have been going out and everyone has a different style and
:08:08. > :08:12.my style is to lead from the front and to talk to people, listen to
:08:13. > :08:16.what they have to say, right away when I became First Minister, I went
:08:17. > :08:21.and listen to what people had to say and most of that is in my 5-point
:08:22. > :08:25.plan, listening to them about education, health, what they want to
:08:26. > :08:29.see from the economy, that is all in the 5-point plan and that is why it
:08:30. > :08:33.is about my leadership because this is a choice of who will be First
:08:34. > :08:39.Minister, will it be me or Martin McGuiness? That is why it is about
:08:40. > :08:45.that. How big a threat is the resurgent UUP under the leadership
:08:46. > :08:53.of Mike Nesbitt poses to the DUP? He does not like the term liberal. He
:08:54. > :08:58.says he is progressive. If you look at the results in the Alaska
:08:59. > :09:01.elections you will see that he has not had a resurgence, they won
:09:02. > :09:09.Fermanagh and South Tyrone because we took the decision we wanted to
:09:10. > :09:15.see a Unionist there. They toppled the DUP in Southampton. Despite the
:09:16. > :09:20.fact that Maurice Morrow and I are MLAs and they only have one MLA
:09:21. > :09:25.there, we stepped aside, we wanted to see a Unionist comeback. The
:09:26. > :09:31.other seed was head to head and the UUP candidate won. If you look at
:09:32. > :09:36.Strangford, the percentage fell back to 14%, in Lagan Valley, the
:09:37. > :09:46.percentage fell, so this whole talk... Overall it was up. That was
:09:47. > :09:57.because they won a seat. You need to look at the different states. --
:09:58. > :10:02.seats. I think there has been a lot of spin around this. What we will
:10:03. > :10:06.see is people making the choice at the election because they know there
:10:07. > :10:10.is only one Unionist leader who can be the First Minister and that is me
:10:11. > :10:14.because there is no way that the Ulster Unionist Party will come back
:10:15. > :10:18.from the level they were at at the last election to take a larger
:10:19. > :10:23.number of seats and there is only one choice and it is made because if
:10:24. > :10:29.you do not vote for the DUP candidate, you will have Sinn Fein
:10:30. > :10:35.First Minister. Once DUP voters have a cast their ballots in favour of
:10:36. > :10:38.the DUP candidate, should they then transfer preferences to UUP
:10:39. > :10:47.candidates. Onto other Unionists. Absolutely. The TUV as well? Yes.
:10:48. > :10:53.They are even more critical of you. It isn't that the union, not me. And
:10:54. > :10:59.make sure that the pro-union vote stands up and that is always what is
:11:00. > :11:05.important. I look -- I am the leader of the DUP and I want to make sure
:11:06. > :11:09.we stay within the union. Being a Unionist is that my corner. I am in
:11:10. > :11:14.partnership with Sinn Fein because people vote for them and under the
:11:15. > :11:18.mandatory Coalition, we want to move to a voluntary Coalition and we will
:11:19. > :11:23.continue to try and bring that about. We have been able to deliver
:11:24. > :11:28.some reform but we will look to continue to press for the reform as
:11:29. > :11:32.we have been doing since the Belfast agreement was signed. How much more
:11:33. > :11:36.difficult would it be for the DUP to be in a 2-party Coalition, just the
:11:37. > :11:41.two of you running the Executive with the other parties in
:11:42. > :11:47.opposition? That is a decision for those parties, they have not been
:11:48. > :11:54.clear as to whether... Would that be a nightmare? You would not have the
:11:55. > :11:59.cover of the UUP. RUC is saying we have had cover? They have voted
:12:00. > :12:05.against us, at every chance, they have not voted for the budgets, on
:12:06. > :12:12.occasions they have been critical of the Executive... There is a huge
:12:13. > :12:16.contradiction. They have now got an opportunity to take up an opposition
:12:17. > :12:21.role. The contradiction surely at the heart of the conversation is
:12:22. > :12:25.that on one hand you would be happy with being in partnership with Sinn
:12:26. > :12:30.Fein, with the others in opposition, even though you desperately do not
:12:31. > :12:34.want people to allow Martin McGuiness to become First Minister,
:12:35. > :12:40.you do not want people to vote for the new -- the UUP but you want them
:12:41. > :12:46.to transfer votes, you're trying to have it every way. Know I am not. On
:12:47. > :12:50.the First Minister issue, it is important to that is because they
:12:51. > :12:54.are the leading politician in Northern Ireland, they get the first
:12:55. > :12:58.pick in terms of the Executive ministries which is very important
:12:59. > :13:01.in terms of what happens and the number of ministries we hold and if
:13:02. > :13:05.the Ulster Unionist Party decide to go into opposition, that is a matter
:13:06. > :13:09.for them, they have not made it clear, they have said that they are
:13:10. > :13:20.waiting for a programme for government, it is a matter for. You
:13:21. > :13:22.would end up in that scenario working alongside Sinn Fein, being
:13:23. > :13:26.opposed by your fellow unionists. That is a matter for them. I want to
:13:27. > :13:29.be in government. I am not going to be in opposition, if I get the
:13:30. > :13:33.support from the people on the ground, I will be in government and
:13:34. > :13:37.hopefully be the First Minister and I will lead from the front. You're
:13:38. > :13:42.promising an extra billion pounds for health and you want to keep
:13:43. > :13:54.university fees down, invest in integrated education and social
:13:55. > :13:56.housing, where does the money come from? In terms of education, we were
:13:57. > :13:59.able to negotiate an extra ?500 million for integrated and shared
:14:00. > :14:02.education on top of our barn at settlement, that money has been
:14:03. > :14:08.secured and we have started to roll that money out. In terms of the ?1
:14:09. > :14:14.billion for health, we have set that out as our number one priority in
:14:15. > :14:17.terms of investment, nearly half of our budget already goes into the
:14:18. > :14:21.health department but we know and have seen that we need more
:14:22. > :14:26.investment and reform in the health Department. We are talking about ?1
:14:27. > :14:31.billion over the next period of time and that is going to be delivered by
:14:32. > :14:37.prioritisation. It is striking when you look at the manifestos, how
:14:38. > :14:43.close some of yours are to Sinn Fein 's. I view talked about some of
:14:44. > :14:47.those policies in advance? I was hoping that we would be able to
:14:48. > :14:51.persuade the public of how well our manifesto is put together and the
:14:52. > :14:55.fact that we have these targets but I did not think I would be able to
:14:56. > :15:01.persuade other parties so quickly. We set out our manifesto commitments
:15:02. > :15:04.for weeks ago, very early, people like yourselves were saying why are
:15:05. > :15:08.you setting it out so early, why are you doing it so early, it was
:15:09. > :15:14.because I wanted it to be clear where our commitments lay and now we
:15:15. > :17:16.see other parties adopting our manifesto.
:17:17. > :17:22.One of the points of my manifesto has been to create that civic pride
:17:23. > :17:26.in Northern Ireland, that I think has been lacking over the years for
:17:27. > :17:30.understandable reasons. We have come through a terrible time in our
:17:31. > :17:33.history but I want to see more pride in the fact that people are from
:17:34. > :17:39.Northern Ireland and I have been saying to young people that I really
:17:40. > :17:44.want them to be proud of they come from and to be proud of the fact
:17:45. > :17:49.that they are from Northern Ireland. In terms of unionism, there has not
:17:50. > :17:53.been as much discussion around the constitutional issue in this
:17:54. > :17:56.election and I think it is because people were content with the
:17:57. > :18:02.constitutional settlement, they see it has been that way for some period
:18:03. > :18:09.of time. How do you describe yourself? A combination of British,
:18:10. > :18:15.Irish and Northern Irish. I see myself as British first of all,
:18:16. > :18:17.probably, as you know, I am a royalist, and monarchist, and I
:18:18. > :18:23.believe in the United Kingdom fundamentally. I am from Northern
:18:24. > :18:26.Ireland, therefore I am Northern Irish and of course, when the
:18:27. > :18:26.Ireland rugby team is playing, I am Irish.
:18:27. > :18:35.Tonight The View can reveal that fifteen former MLAs who retired
:18:36. > :18:37.from the Assembly last month are in line for a special one-off
:18:38. > :18:40.payment - between them worth almost half a million pounds.
:18:41. > :18:43.The public purse will also foot the bill for pay-outs to those
:18:44. > :18:45.outgoing MLAs who don't get re-elected next Thursday.
:18:46. > :18:46.Our investigations reporter, Kevin Magee, has been
:18:47. > :19:01.With the election campaign in full swing, Stormont is taking a break,
:19:02. > :19:06.awaiting an influx of new MLAs who will soon be running this place.
:19:07. > :19:09.Some familiar faces will be disappearing, 16 MLAs are retiring
:19:10. > :19:15.and of course there is the chance some others will not be re-elected.
:19:16. > :19:19.For those clearing out their lockers in Stormont, they will not be
:19:20. > :19:24.leaving empty-handed, on top of their pensions, every MLAs who is
:19:25. > :19:29.either retiring or fails to get re-elected is entitled to a
:19:30. > :19:32.financial windfall. It is called a resettlement allowance. You do not
:19:33. > :19:36.have to apply for it, you're entitled to it to magically and how
:19:37. > :19:44.much you get depends on how long you have been an MLA and how old you are
:19:45. > :19:49.when you leave the job. 15 of the 16 retiring MLAs will be entitled to be
:19:50. > :19:53.allowance, Gregory Campbell does not qualify because he is on and MPs
:19:54. > :20:02.salary. The lump sum amount that they will get will vary from 16 to
:20:03. > :20:05.almost 40,000 plus. The first ?30,000 is tax-free, for the
:20:06. > :20:12.retiring MLAs, the cost to the public purse of paying this
:20:13. > :20:16.allowance is almost half ?1 million. ?440,000, to be exact. The rules and
:20:17. > :20:21.the size of the allowance are changing, but not in time to effect
:20:22. > :20:28.this current crop of MLAs. Instead, they will benefit from the higher
:20:29. > :20:31.rates paid under the old system. The old system was one that we inherited
:20:32. > :20:35.from the MLAs themselves and which was based on a fairly generous
:20:36. > :20:40.interpretation of the West Minister system and designed to attract and
:20:41. > :20:47.retain people into politics in a very difficult time and that that
:20:48. > :20:51.situation longer pertains, it is time to look at what we should have
:20:52. > :20:57.for the foreseeable future in comparison with other legislators.
:20:58. > :21:00.Unlike other issues, payments to politicians is not something the
:21:01. > :21:07.parties are queueing up to talk about at election time. The DUP and
:21:08. > :21:13.Sinn Fein, Ulster Unionist, SDLP, a Lions, greens and TV declined to be
:21:14. > :21:16.interviewed but David McNamee agreed, as he is retiring from the
:21:17. > :21:20.Assembly and not seeking re-election, he is in line for one
:21:21. > :21:28.of the payments of just over ?32,000. If politicians go into
:21:29. > :21:32.elected politics for money, those are the wrong reasons, glory, that
:21:33. > :21:37.is the wrong reason, you come in to help people. People begrudge me at,
:21:38. > :21:42.I do not think anyone in my constituency will begrudge me this.
:21:43. > :21:46.Do you think that that allowances to generous? It is. It is far too
:21:47. > :21:54.generous and I think there is no point in it. You earn your salary
:21:55. > :22:00.but it is fair, and it is a rule and they seemed to be happy with it. If
:22:01. > :22:04.we do not build on what we have got, the small boats, along with the
:22:05. > :22:09.large vote. The former Deputy Leader of the Alliance Party also received
:22:10. > :22:15.the allowance when he bowed out of politics in 2007. It helped me quite
:22:16. > :22:18.a lot because I did receive a generous resettlement allowance,
:22:19. > :22:23.because I benefited under the old system. He says the resettlement
:22:24. > :22:27.grants were designed to give politicians financial security in
:22:28. > :22:32.the uncertain world of politics, in the event that representatives
:22:33. > :22:36.suddenly find themselves seated or without a job. It gives you that
:22:37. > :22:40.sense of financial security, it is designed to help people who were
:22:41. > :22:49.less fortunate than me, because I was able to go back to my job and
:22:50. > :22:51.resume my fil obligation. There are others who had no job and will be
:22:52. > :22:57.faced with immediate problems, with regards to their mortgages and
:22:58. > :23:01.putting food on the table, that was the purpose for which this system
:23:02. > :23:02.was devised and it is of great benefit to those who find themselves
:23:03. > :23:14.in that situation. A new, lower rate is being
:23:15. > :23:19.introduced for the next Assembly. It is similar to what happens in
:23:20. > :23:22.Scotland, Wales and Westminster. And I understand it also happens in the
:23:23. > :23:27.Republic. We have had a look at all of those and we think we have got it
:23:28. > :23:34.just about right. We have actually cut it in half for the new Assembly.
:23:35. > :23:40.So instead of a maximum of ?48,000 which could be owned, that will now
:23:41. > :23:46.be ?24,500 maximum in the new determination. The electorate will
:23:47. > :23:49.vote on the 5th of May. As well as returning MLAs, those who are not
:23:50. > :23:59.re-elected will also get resettlement allowance at a higher
:24:00. > :24:05.rate. The bill to the public purse of paying the grants to the outgoing
:24:06. > :24:06.Stormont class of 2016 could be in the region of three quarters of ?1
:24:07. > :24:11.million. Earlier this week the jury
:24:12. > :24:18.at the Hillsborough inquests found that 96 football fans
:24:19. > :24:20.were unlawfully killed, Queen's University Professor Phil
:24:21. > :24:25.Scraton wrote his first report on the tragedy in 1990 and has been
:24:26. > :24:38.working alongside the bereaved You have just come back from
:24:39. > :24:40.Liverpool a few hours ago. You were in the courtroom when the verdict of
:24:41. > :24:46.unlawful killing was delivered by the jury. What was your reaction
:24:47. > :24:54.when you heard that? To paint the picture, you had to see a converted
:24:55. > :25:02.office block as the coroners court. Over 100 lawyers in the court, the
:25:03. > :25:07.jury, the coroner, 300 people in the court room, an annex with another
:25:08. > :25:15.400 people, an annex in Liverpool with another 400 people. And the
:25:16. > :25:18.world's media. And an inquest jury delivers a verdict not like any
:25:19. > :25:22.other court. It has a short form verdict, in this case the only one
:25:23. > :25:27.which was offered was unlawfully killed, which is actually gross
:25:28. > :25:31.negligence, manslaughter. It also has the opportunity these days to
:25:32. > :25:36.add a narrative verdict, and there were 14 points on the narrative
:25:37. > :25:40.verdict. So it was a slow process. He took them through, the coroner,
:25:41. > :25:47.took them through, one by one, each of the points, starting with police
:25:48. > :25:52.club ability. 15 separate criticisms came from the jury. Then he moved on
:25:53. > :25:57.to ground safety. Then he moved on to the Ambulance Service. Then he
:25:58. > :26:03.went on to the safety engineers. He moved through each of the
:26:04. > :26:08.responsible parties - four, five, six criticisms directed at each. And
:26:09. > :26:13.then he got to the inquest verdict, and on a majority, beyond reasonable
:26:14. > :26:21.doubt, they found gross negligence manslaughter. It was hard to say
:26:22. > :26:29.what it was like. I have worked with the families for 27 years. And I was
:26:30. > :26:33.working as legal adviser, beyond secondment from my job, as legal
:26:34. > :26:40.adviser to the family's teams. I had written over 30 extensive briefings.
:26:41. > :26:44.-- families' teams. The reaction in the court was first ball stunned,
:26:45. > :26:52.and then this incredible outpouring of grief, mixed elation. And when he
:26:53. > :26:56.got to gross negligence manslaughter, and the verdict was
:26:57. > :27:03.yes, I don't think people could believe it after all this time. You
:27:04. > :27:06.hadn't expected it? No. Because it is such a high bar, such a high
:27:07. > :27:10.test, and it has to be beyond reasonable doubt. The rest of the
:27:11. > :27:15.verdict is, it is on the balance of probabilities. But then he got to
:27:16. > :27:20.the key issue, because now we had unlawful killing, but one of the
:27:21. > :27:24.questions was, did the fan is' behaviour contributed? You have to
:27:25. > :27:29.remember that we had more than 800 witnesses at this inquest. -- the
:27:30. > :27:34.fans' behaviour. Many of the police officers came and ran the same lies
:27:35. > :27:38.which their chief constables have apologised for after we produced the
:27:39. > :27:43.Hillsborough Independent Panel report. And they ran the same lies,
:27:44. > :27:46.because they have yet to be prosecuted. I think the worst
:27:47. > :27:49.combination would have been unlawfully killed with fans
:27:50. > :27:57.behaviour having contributed to it. So when they said, absolutely no.
:27:58. > :27:59.They had heard this evidence, levelled against their loved ones,
:28:00. > :28:03.levelled against survivors who were also in court, people whose lives
:28:04. > :28:07.had been wrecked by Hillsborough, who believed that they were going to
:28:08. > :28:15.be hold culpable. And when he said, when the jury returned, she stood
:28:16. > :28:22.and she said, no. It was remarkable. There was an outpouring of relief,
:28:23. > :28:27.an outpouring of grief, every emotion you can imagine. I myself
:28:28. > :28:35.had my head down and found myself, as I feel now, sobbing. Because I
:28:36. > :28:40.know what that has meant to the families. I have said the lesson
:28:41. > :28:47.that so many people's premature deaths. We have had suicides. People
:28:48. > :28:50.talk about the 96, we have had well over 200-300 people who have died
:28:51. > :28:55.prematurely. Families that I have known really well, you know my
:28:56. > :28:58.family really well, early-onset Alzheimer's, all kinds of issues.
:28:59. > :29:06.And I think that was the moment when it all came to a head. So the
:29:07. > :29:13.question now, Phil, is that people will take some time to come to terms
:29:14. > :29:17.with the enormity of that verdict. But also their attention will turn
:29:18. > :29:20.to what happens next. While this inquest is now over, there are
:29:21. > :29:26.several investigations under way, and you yourself have talked about
:29:27. > :29:31.the possibility of criminal prosecutions - do you think that
:29:32. > :29:34.should happen? The two biggest ever criminal investigations... It is
:29:35. > :29:40.hard sitting here to imagine a four-storey block in Warrington,
:29:41. > :29:44.inverted, where the two largest ever investigations into any issue are
:29:45. > :29:48.now under way and have been for three years. A criminal
:29:49. > :29:51.investigation with over 200 officers working full-time, an Independent
:29:52. > :29:54.Police Complaints Commission investigation with over 200 officers
:29:55. > :30:00.working full-time. So, what we are looking at now is for the DPP to
:30:01. > :30:05.come to a decision about the turn of the year on prosecutions, ranging
:30:06. > :30:09.from perjury to more serious offences. What we're looking at is
:30:10. > :30:14.probably one of the greatest ever critiques put forward by the IPCC,
:30:15. > :30:21.the Independent Police Complaints Commission. You know, one of the
:30:22. > :30:26.things that, living in Northern Ireland, really strikes me, is, I
:30:27. > :30:30.could imagine this kind of attention, this kind of
:30:31. > :30:35.investigation, around what we would consider really big issues. I'm
:30:36. > :30:41.talking here about so-called terrorist activities, shoot to kill
:30:42. > :30:47.policies, all of those issues that are familiar with here. These were
:30:48. > :30:50.96 men, women and children who went to a football match like you and I
:30:51. > :30:58.would go to the theatre or any other social event. This investigation, it
:30:59. > :31:00.is hard to get your head round it, has cost millions and millions of
:31:01. > :31:08.pounds. The independent panel on which I sat cost millions of pounds.
:31:09. > :31:15.One member of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign is quoted today as
:31:16. > :31:19.saying, Sheila Coleman, saying, we make no bones about it, we drew
:31:20. > :31:22.great inspiration from the bloody Sunday families. And she said, the
:31:23. > :31:27.fact that the bloody Sunday families took on what she called the might of
:31:28. > :31:30.the British state and won helped the Hillsborough for these keep their
:31:31. > :31:34.focus on justice. There are differences between the two cases
:31:35. > :31:38.but similarities as well? The major difference is that the bloody Sunday
:31:39. > :31:43.was an inquiry, this was an inquest. If you want me to comment on that,
:31:44. > :31:48.we look at how many inquests are waiting to be brought to fruition
:31:49. > :31:52.here for over 40 years, I think the inspiration comes from the fight for
:31:53. > :31:55.justice. I think the bloody Sunday families also took inspiration from
:31:56. > :32:00.the Hillsborough families, I think it works both ways. Because the
:32:01. > :32:03.Hillsborough families' struggle has been going on for 27 years. My first
:32:04. > :32:09.involvement with them was at the first inquests. My first involvement
:32:10. > :32:13.with them was actually before that, at the Taylor inquiry. At the first
:32:14. > :32:16.inquest we saw an accidental death verdict, despite all the evidence
:32:17. > :32:19.which was brought. And then what we saw after that was a failed
:32:20. > :32:22.prosecution of two of the senior officers. That was the point at
:32:23. > :32:30.which I wrote them pull Hillsborough the truth. The truth has been there,
:32:31. > :32:33.I was the person who discovered the review and alteration of all the
:32:34. > :32:37.police statements. I have all of those statements in three forms, the
:32:38. > :32:45.original, the changed version and the one which went into the
:32:46. > :32:48.prosecution. This was a wholesale reconfiguration of all the
:32:49. > :32:52.evidential base of Hillsborough. If we're going to move into that kind
:32:53. > :32:56.of a dimension here, we have to be wary of that. That what we see as
:32:57. > :32:59.police statements and military statements which have been taken
:33:00. > :33:04.over time are not necessarily the state and is as they were first
:33:05. > :33:09.made. If you have a review and alteration process as we had in
:33:10. > :33:14.Hillsborough which a team of senior officers, underestimation again,
:33:15. > :33:16.reviewing and altering their statements, West Midlands Police in
:33:17. > :33:23.this case, they inherit that, then the Home Office except it then the
:33:24. > :33:27.judicial inquiry accepts it, what you have is a process which is what
:33:28. > :33:33.to the core. Very, very briefly if you would, is there a lesson in this
:33:34. > :33:38.to the Barry Murphy families who are still on their quest for justice? I
:33:39. > :33:42.think they are keen to see the Hillsborough model applied in their
:33:43. > :33:47.case if possible? Yes, I think that the Barry Murphy families, adopting
:33:48. > :33:54.a kind of Hillsborough panel, as a point at which you move through,
:33:55. > :33:57.which is what happened with Hillsborough - the independent panel
:33:58. > :34:01.scrutinises all the available material and evidence. Here it will
:34:02. > :34:05.be more difficult, because getting security services to divulge... But
:34:06. > :34:09.having that kind of process and taking it through, with a
:34:10. > :34:13.substantial funding, to the end, where you then have the potential
:34:14. > :34:17.for prosecutions. That model is a new model and it is one which I do
:34:18. > :34:20.believe deserves full consideration. Very interesting to hear your
:34:21. > :34:22.experience and thoughts tonight. Phil Scraton, thank you very much
:34:23. > :34:24.for joining us. And with me to share their thoughts
:34:25. > :34:26.on what we've been discussing are Newton Emerson
:34:27. > :34:35.and Patricia MacBride. Let's talk first of all about the
:34:36. > :34:38.interview with Arlene Foster. Patricia, did the DUP do the right
:34:39. > :34:43.thing in your view in hanging so much of the campaign around Arlene?
:34:44. > :34:47.I think there was a lot of goodwill towards Arlene Foster as a new First
:34:48. > :34:52.Minister and leader of the party. That was when she first came in. She
:34:53. > :34:57.was a woman, she was to the fore in the party. I don't think she has
:34:58. > :35:02.capitalised on it in the best way. This issue around putting herself at
:35:03. > :35:07.the forefront of the campaign, it's my plan, it's my party... It is very
:35:08. > :35:11.much the style of leadership which Peter Robinson had, which Ian
:35:12. > :35:16.Paisley had. She needs to distinguish herself more and bring
:35:17. > :35:23.in a new brand of leadership to the DUP. I thought the question at the
:35:24. > :35:26.end, when she was asked about her identity, was the only part of the
:35:27. > :35:31.interview where she showed the kind of generosity which you might hope
:35:32. > :35:33.for in the leader of all of Northern Ireland. This negativity which was
:35:34. > :35:37.evident throughout the rest of the interview, where is the evidence
:35:38. > :35:41.that that is what unionist voters actually want? The DUP did very well
:35:42. > :35:49.when it appeared to have a better working relationship with Sinn Fein.
:35:50. > :35:52.The TUV has stagnated. There is no evidence that this hard-line stance
:35:53. > :35:57.she is taking, although she might think it sure base, is necessary. Do
:35:58. > :36:00.you think she has engaged in a delicate balancing act between the
:36:01. > :36:05.future and the past, between wanting to work with Sinn Fein because she
:36:06. > :36:12.has to and her relationship for example with other unionists? I
:36:13. > :36:16.think the campaign itself, keep Arlene as the First Minister, is
:36:17. > :36:21.telling. It is creating a scaremongering effect. There's a
:36:22. > :36:25.real false campaign here, that does not really an issue. The fact that
:36:26. > :36:33.Arlene Foster might be challenged as First Minister, and we all know that
:36:34. > :36:35.the ministries of first and deputy... I don't think the
:36:36. > :36:40.relationship with Sinn Fein is as strong as perhaps it could be, as
:36:41. > :36:43.Newton said. There did seem to be more goodwill and the relationship
:36:44. > :36:50.was better, when the parties worked together to develop a programme for
:36:51. > :36:54.government. Both parties' voters like it when they are together. They
:36:55. > :36:57.have responded positively in the past and both of their votes have
:36:58. > :37:01.grown when they have worked closely together. It is interesting that she
:37:02. > :37:06.still will not admit to liking Martin McGuinness. Also that she
:37:07. > :37:10.said there is no coordination on the manifesto. Not on the manifesto
:37:11. > :37:13.perhaps, but she told the Assembly in February that they were working
:37:14. > :37:17.together on the programme for government. Which is clearly where
:37:18. > :37:21.these promises are coming from. Of course these two parties cooperate,
:37:22. > :37:30.they did so even before Fresh Start. Now they are pretending not too. It
:37:31. > :37:34.is a ridiculous sham. What did you make of Kevin Magee's report? In the
:37:35. > :37:39.first instance, if you become a politician, then you do make a lot
:37:40. > :37:41.of personal and professional sacrifices in your life. I don't
:37:42. > :37:46.think that it is unreasonable if you're going into an election where
:37:47. > :37:49.you face either losing your seat or you have come to the end of your
:37:50. > :37:53.professional career, that you should be compensated in some way. I don't
:37:54. > :37:57.think it is unreasonable that there should be some kind of severance
:37:58. > :38:01.payment. Likewise, I don't think it is unreasonable that we should make
:38:02. > :38:07.sure that it is fair. In that report from Kevin Magee, they said that the
:38:08. > :38:11.payment was introduced at a time when it was needed to bring people
:38:12. > :38:14.in, and that those circumstances do not exist any more. And
:38:15. > :38:19.interestingly, he also said that he will have it for the next mandate.
:38:20. > :38:23.Yes, the payment was there, it is too high, he has cut it. I do not
:38:24. > :38:26.like this focus on the 100 people at Stormont that we can hold to
:38:27. > :38:32.account. There are 100,000 people are there, most of them paid as well
:38:33. > :38:40.as MLAs and we should be focusing on them. How do you think the public
:38:41. > :38:42.will react? I'm sure tomorrow's Nolan show will be a classic!
:38:43. > :38:44.That's it from The View for this week.
:38:45. > :38:47.Join me for Sunday Politics at 11:35am here on BBC One,
:38:48. > :38:48.when I'll be talking to representatives
:38:49. > :38:51.of the five main parties ahead of next Thursday's election.
:38:52. > :38:53.Earlier tonight, we heard from our First Minister, Arlene Foster.
:38:54. > :38:54.Her Scottish counterpart, Nicola Sturgeon,
:38:55. > :38:59.Here's a flavour of how they do things over there.
:39:00. > :39:11.I'm Nicola. I am 45, I know I don't look it. I am the leader of the SNP.
:39:12. > :39:14.Right. I am the First Minister of Scotland, and I am totally terrified
:39:15. > :39:20.right now. You can't be, you're not. I am a wee bit like being on a first
:39:21. > :39:24.date with a guy that you just know is way out of your league. That is
:39:25. > :39:31.how I feel right now. What is your worst policy, and why? It is the age
:39:32. > :39:37.at which you can use sunbeds. We're also trying to make alcohol more
:39:38. > :39:47.expensive. What will you do if Donald Trump gets into power, will
:39:48. > :39:49.you deal with him or a dingy him? What do you think of his hair? It
:39:50. > :39:56.reminds me of Dougie Donnelly. It's time to elect a new Assembly,
:39:57. > :40:01.but who will you be voting for? we're inviting the leaders
:40:02. > :40:04.of the larger parties for a debate.