:00:00. > :00:07.In three weeks' time it'll all be over, and voters across the UK
:00:08. > :00:09.will have made the choice to remain within the European Union
:00:10. > :00:14.But until then, the arguments continue, and tonight on The View
:00:15. > :00:18.a campaigner and comedian takes on the DUP in the battle
:00:19. > :00:46.Tonight: the Remain camp's Eddie Izzard sells what he says
:00:47. > :00:49.are the "tremendous advantages" of staying in Europe.
:00:50. > :00:53.And in the Leave corner, Sammy Wilson hits back with his view
:00:54. > :00:56.on why getting out can only be good for Northern Ireland.
:00:57. > :00:58.Also tonight: the new Education Minister reaffirms his commitment
:00:59. > :01:00.to academic selection, while his party leader,
:01:01. > :01:03.Arlene Foster, calls for a new single transfer test to be
:01:04. > :01:18.De Vos take two years, that would be too tight a schedule, I would say at
:01:19. > :01:20.least, and I stress the at least, three years.
:01:21. > :01:22.And fresh from her foray into electoral politics,
:01:23. > :01:30.Lesley Carroll joins Chris Donnelly in Commentators' Corner.
:01:31. > :01:33.Voting in the EU referendum happens three weeks today and if you haven't
:01:34. > :01:35.already registered to vote, you've only got five days left
:01:36. > :01:42.The comedian, actor and Remain campaigner Eddie Izzard is currently
:01:43. > :01:45.on a whistle-stop tour of 31 cities in the countdown to June 23rd -
:01:46. > :01:50.Belfast is city number 12 in his itinerary.
:01:51. > :01:52.He wants to persuade as many people as he can across the country
:01:53. > :01:55.to register, and to vote to stay in the EU.
:01:56. > :01:58.Hoping to knock him off course, in this part of the world at least,
:01:59. > :02:01.is the DUP MP, Sammy Wilson, who's a prominent member
:02:02. > :02:15.Welcome to you both. Eddie Izzard, you're halfway through this tour to
:02:16. > :02:19.persuade people to vote to remain. Why undertake a commitment like
:02:20. > :02:22.that? I have always been very positive on Europe. I have been
:02:23. > :02:27.given to Mendis responsibilities. I am a kid from banger, County Down, I
:02:28. > :02:33.had such a wonderful time here and wanted to come to this part of the
:02:34. > :02:38.UK. Registered to vote. People fought and died to vote, get your
:02:39. > :02:41.opinion out there. Older people are registered, younger people less so,
:02:42. > :02:47.so do not let other people tell you what to do. Even if you're voting
:02:48. > :02:50.Leave, vote to get it now. I think there are tremendous opportunities,
:02:51. > :02:55.and I want all young people to have them. That passion for Europe is
:02:56. > :03:01.specifically about staying in the youth, it is not just Europe, it is
:03:02. > :03:05.the EU? They are one in the same, it is our continent. If you take the
:03:06. > :03:10.journey of humanity, were 10,000 people 200,000 years ago, now we are
:03:11. > :03:13.7 billion. We have to head towards a world where everyone has a fair
:03:14. > :03:18.chance. Europe is a first continent to try to come together. We had
:03:19. > :03:22.hundreds of years of endless wars, we try to stop it by building the
:03:23. > :03:26.European Union. Above all it is for the sake of humanity that we do
:03:27. > :03:30.this. Is it really one and the same thing? Boris Johnson would say he is
:03:31. > :03:32.passionate about Europe but not passionate about the EU. He says
:03:33. > :03:37.they are not one of the same thing and that is a critical point. He is
:03:38. > :03:41.passionate about immigration. He is pro-immigration and is on the rack
:03:42. > :03:45.subside. That is a confused story. If you want a recession, you Brexit,
:03:46. > :03:51.because all the experts have lined up to say that. All these experts...
:03:52. > :03:56.There are no experts on the Brexit site. Iraq Obama, Hillary Clinton on
:03:57. > :03:59.this site. It is Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen from the National
:04:00. > :04:05.front in France who say, go for Brexit. We will get a recession.
:04:06. > :04:08.?100 million a year comes specifically to Northern Ireland. It
:04:09. > :04:12.has opened a stick thing for Northern Ireland. I do feel being
:04:13. > :04:17.bracketed in that kind of company, Sammy Wilson? It is not factual. The
:04:18. > :04:23.countries in recession at the moment of those most closely tied to the EU
:04:24. > :04:26.and especially the Eurozone. If you look at the countries where young
:04:27. > :04:31.people do not have a chance for the future, 50% youth unemployment in
:04:32. > :04:36.Spain, Italy, the economy of Greece in ruins. Why? Because they tied
:04:37. > :04:41.themselves into the European project and tied themselves into the euro.
:04:42. > :04:47.We are not tied into the euro. That's exactly right. We're one of
:04:48. > :04:55.the countries whose economy is doing well, because we removed ourselves
:04:56. > :05:01.from the most tight economic aspect of the European Union, namely the
:05:02. > :05:05.Eurozone. And if you look at the countries which are thriving at the
:05:06. > :05:11.moment, those countries even within the EU, they are the ones who stayed
:05:12. > :05:15.out of the monetary and fiscal arrangements, and indeed the
:05:16. > :05:19.government is its own case... Germany? We are performing better
:05:20. > :05:26.than Germany. Germany are doing pretty well. We are performing
:05:27. > :05:30.better than Germany, and as far as the success of our economy is
:05:31. > :05:34.concerned, the government itself argues it is because we stayed
:05:35. > :05:39.outside the European arrangement of the Eurozone. But not outside the
:05:40. > :05:45.European Union. David Cameron is arguing to be in the European Union.
:05:46. > :05:49.And he is wrong on that. In 2008 was a sub prime meltdown, that caused
:05:50. > :05:55.problems around the world. Global recession is the point that Eddie is
:05:56. > :05:57.making. That is not true. It was exacerbated in the European Union
:05:58. > :06:03.because of the way in which the economic and monetary union at the
:06:04. > :06:07.weakest countries. Germany, the big country, wanted to have a loose
:06:08. > :06:13.monetary policy, low interest rates. That did not suit France, it did not
:06:14. > :06:17.suit Italy. It did not suit Spain, it did not suit Ireland, and as a
:06:18. > :06:22.result we had cheap money, property boom and then a big crash. 100
:06:23. > :06:26.million comes into Northern Ireland from the European Union, 2.5 billion
:06:27. > :06:28.over the last ten years. The Borders could go up. You have no borders at
:06:29. > :06:34.the moment. Northern Ireland has been through hell, up until the Good
:06:35. > :06:39.Friday Agreement, surely this is more positive? I am doing gigs in
:06:40. > :06:42.French, in German, I am doing gigs all over Europe. This is a positive
:06:43. > :06:47.thing. Humanity has to head forwards, we cannot head backwards.
:06:48. > :06:54.The money that Kim into Northern Ireland was money that went out of
:06:55. > :06:58.Northern Ireland in the first place. We are... The United Kingdom is a
:06:59. > :07:05.net contributor of 10 billion. And if you look at the DFP figures for
:07:06. > :07:08.2015, we get from the Common Agricultural Policy, the Common
:07:09. > :07:16.Fisheries Policy and strategic investment, we get about ?350
:07:17. > :07:27.million a year plus ?15 million from peace money, but we contribute...
:07:28. > :07:29.100 million. Sammy, the UK is a net contributor to the EU, but Northern
:07:30. > :07:33.Ireland is a net beneficiary, you at least accept that? You don't accept
:07:34. > :07:41.that? Then you are one of a very small minority. Brexit accept that.
:07:42. > :07:47.Figures produced by an organisation that is pro-staying in the EU...
:07:48. > :07:53.Although it is difficult to work out the exact contribution, but if our
:07:54. > :07:57.conurbations were made, R Barnett consequential is, we paying 356
:07:58. > :08:05.million and we get 370 million back per year, and that is diminishing as
:08:06. > :08:09.peace money goes down and as the Common Agricultural Policy tightens.
:08:10. > :08:15.Do you think that trading figures like this actually helps you to win
:08:16. > :08:22.votes for your position? We make the judgment on what is factual... Or
:08:23. > :08:27.what you claim is factual. You cannot get to people to agree on the
:08:28. > :08:32.figures. The Brexit figures agrees it is 360 million they get out of
:08:33. > :08:37.it. We are net contributors. The other thing we do know is that
:08:38. > :08:40.currently we are losing out on opportunities to trade with the
:08:41. > :08:49.growing parts of the world well-being tied into the stagnant EU
:08:50. > :08:53.with our trade deals. And the last thing we do know is that the
:08:54. > :08:58.European Union is heading for an even greater crisis as we see the
:08:59. > :09:03.countries in Southern Europe being tied more and more... That's not
:09:04. > :09:09.true. If I could get a word in here, we're going towards... Brexit is
:09:10. > :09:15.must an anagram of recession. It is going to happen. The World Trade
:09:16. > :09:19.Organisation, the World Bank, the IMF, the governor of the Bank of
:09:20. > :09:23.England, the CBI, the OECD, all of them lining up saying, do not leave,
:09:24. > :09:26.it is not a good idea, you could well go into recession, and there
:09:27. > :09:32.was not one person on the other side. They are just given it up.
:09:33. > :09:37.There are people who come at this, Eddie, from a left Ish perspective,
:09:38. > :09:41.which is where you're coming from. You are a member of the Labour Party
:09:42. > :09:44.and running for a place on the national executive committee of the
:09:45. > :09:47.Labour Party and said recently you would like to run for office, you'd
:09:48. > :09:51.like to be an MP. He liked me sitting in the green benches
:09:52. > :09:54.opposite Sammy at some stage in the future, but there are people in the
:09:55. > :09:57.Labour Party, perhaps to the left of where you are who share your
:09:58. > :10:03.socialist principles but who actually think that the EU is the
:10:04. > :10:06.bogeyman. They are worried about big multinational companies taking over,
:10:07. > :10:09.and I do not want that to happen, but my point is, above everything,
:10:10. > :10:14.if you see all these figures, this number crunching, humanity. Do we
:10:15. > :10:17.not gradually move away from tribalism and learn to live and work
:10:18. > :10:23.together in some shape or form? Despair is the feel of terrorism,
:10:24. > :10:25.hope is the feel of civilisation. We have to put more hope into the
:10:26. > :10:32.world. Northern Ireland has lived through hell. I lived here until 69,
:10:33. > :10:34.I was a kid here, I ran three marathons across Northern Ireland to
:10:35. > :10:39.do something positive. I'm trying to live a positive campaign. Humanity
:10:40. > :10:44.is not defined by membership of the European Union, surely. But the
:10:45. > :10:48.signal that sense, if the UK pulls out, what signal does that send to
:10:49. > :10:52.the world? It says we try to pull out and put up a brick wall. And the
:10:53. > :10:55.Borders will come back between North and south and east and west. You
:10:56. > :10:58.don't want that. Northern Ireland surely doesn't want the Borders
:10:59. > :11:02.back. People say they are not sure, but they could come back. At the
:11:03. > :11:06.moment they are not there. What's your position? You have said border
:11:07. > :11:10.control is terribly important for the DUP, and that is partly why you
:11:11. > :11:15.think, a chief reason for leaving the European Union, to have tough
:11:16. > :11:18.border control. I believe it is important economically to have
:11:19. > :11:25.proper control of our borders and immigration. And what would that
:11:26. > :11:28.mean? What does that mean if there is Brexit? How do you control the
:11:29. > :11:32.border as far as Northern Ireland and the Republic is concerned?
:11:33. > :11:38.Deadly spell out why it is important. Without that control of
:11:39. > :11:41.immigration, wages are being driven down and the poorest have been hit
:11:42. > :11:46.in the least unskilled people have been hit, and also we have left
:11:47. > :11:50.ourselves in jeopardy as terrorists are able to wander across Europe
:11:51. > :11:55.carrying out atrocities in Paris, Brussels etc. How would those
:11:56. > :12:03.controls work? We have spelt it out this week. Our immigration policy we
:12:04. > :12:06.base on a points system whereby... How would you control the border
:12:07. > :12:10.between Northern Ireland and the republic? That is the question. The
:12:11. > :12:16.same way as it is controlled at the moment. But it is an open border.
:12:17. > :12:19.And we are part of the open travel area. That open border has not in
:12:20. > :12:26.any way impacted to date on the ability for us to stop people who we
:12:27. > :12:31.don't wish to come into the country coming in. Why? Because the Irish
:12:32. > :12:38.government recognises that the Common travel area is important.
:12:39. > :12:40.They do the checks at airports. It would be completed and of the
:12:41. > :12:43.Republic of Ireland remained and the UK pulled out. You would not have
:12:44. > :12:49.the same kind of system that you have at the moment. There would be
:12:50. > :12:53.customs, bureaucrats and... The Irish government has not signed up
:12:54. > :12:57.to the Schengen agreement so they do have controls over the border, the
:12:58. > :12:59.same controls we have, that is why once people see flick into the
:13:00. > :13:02.Republic they can move into the United Kingdom because checks are
:13:03. > :13:06.done at the Republic. Why would they want to stop that? Would they say,
:13:07. > :13:11.we will not do this checks any longer and more will that people...
:13:12. > :13:17.You don't know. Why would they do that? Were delectable coming...
:13:18. > :13:20.There are not Borders Mike Weir going into a place where there could
:13:21. > :13:27.be borders, there might be... Eddie, what is your fair? I'm coming back
:13:28. > :13:30.here not as an Angus person but some are used to live here and I had a
:13:31. > :13:33.great time when I was here and I just don't want you to go back to
:13:34. > :13:38.any kind of borders. There are no borders now. So don't even go into
:13:39. > :13:41.there may be borders and it recession may come up, and 100
:13:42. > :13:46.million comes into Northern Ireland. There are summary net benefits from
:13:47. > :13:51.it. Low-cost lights will go up, health care across Europe. That
:13:52. > :13:59.disappears. True, these are real. Roaming charges... Low-cost flights
:14:00. > :14:06.across Europe are because there is more competition, there has been a
:14:07. > :14:08.change in the way flights have been organised, there has been an
:14:09. > :14:13.appetite for low-cost flights. That is nothing to do with the European
:14:14. > :14:16.Union. It is to do with the European Union. They made the low-cost
:14:17. > :14:22.flights happen. The market changed and they made that happen. Roaming
:14:23. > :14:30.costs. Do you honestly think the Michael O'Leary 's of this world, in
:14:31. > :14:33.huge competition with easyJet and who do... The Chief Executive of
:14:34. > :14:39.easyJet seven as well go down and the numbers will go up. Either she
:14:40. > :14:40.is lying or it is true. If everyone is lying... All these experts are
:14:41. > :14:52.lying... You cannot be sure, is that the
:14:53. > :14:57.point? The chief Executive of easyJet is not going to put their
:14:58. > :15:01.prices up when they know what there are other lower-priced competitors
:15:02. > :15:11.are around. The competition will insure these prices... Do you think
:15:12. > :15:20.they are employing scare tactics? Both sides could be accused of this.
:15:21. > :15:28.I am turning in France and Germany. I will be in Normandy performing in
:15:29. > :15:35.German, French and English, surely that is a positive thing? Democracy
:15:36. > :15:41.and freedom since World War II. If we say we are pulling out, it is not
:15:42. > :15:48.that we humans work. With there be brick wall? Whatever it is, what
:15:49. > :15:53.signal does this send to the world, surely humanity moves forward by
:15:54. > :15:59.learning to live together not my adding more borders and pulling out.
:16:00. > :16:05.He said we would be like green lungs. No one can decide what we
:16:06. > :16:14.would be. -- Greenland. No one has any idea what it would be. We do not
:16:15. > :16:21.have a political union with south-east Asia and people go to
:16:22. > :16:25.Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand. When you both speak nobody can hear you.
:16:26. > :16:34.Do you think this kind of discussion and debate where people talk at each
:16:35. > :16:37.other rather than persuade each other, do you think it convinces
:16:38. > :16:43.people about the rightness of your possession? We are on different
:16:44. > :16:49.sites so we want to put up different points of view. I am not going to be
:16:50. > :16:55.persuaded by M nor heed by me. My point is I am trying to live and
:16:56. > :17:01.breathe, if a kid from Banga is going out and playing 28 countries
:17:02. > :17:07.on a tour, surely that is more positive than going backwards. You
:17:08. > :17:15.can do all that without being in the EU. He can travel in other parts of
:17:16. > :17:20.the world without a political union. The important thing for the people
:17:21. > :17:26.northern Ireland is do you want to be able to decide the laws of your
:17:27. > :17:31.own country by selecting politicians who if they do not put through the
:17:32. > :17:35.laws you want, you have got an opportunity to get rid of them. You
:17:36. > :17:37.do not have that in the EU but you will if we have independence. One
:17:38. > :17:41.quick final question,. Just eight days into the job,
:17:42. > :17:43.Sinn Fein's Michelle O'Neill made her first big decision
:17:44. > :17:46.as Health Minister today. She's announced the lifting
:17:47. > :17:48.of the lifetime ban on gay What's your reaction
:17:49. > :17:55.to that development? My reaction is I hope she has
:17:56. > :18:02.ensured that whatever arrangements to place, make sure that people do
:18:03. > :18:07.not finish up with contaminated blood and have their health could at
:18:08. > :18:15.risk. She is following UK procedures. I have been at debates
:18:16. > :18:20.in the House of Commons and talk to constituents with people who've are
:18:21. > :18:27.living with contaminated blood scenarios. The rest of the UK, we
:18:28. > :18:34.are now in line with them, and you are Unionist. Other companies still
:18:35. > :18:38.say there is a risk and I hope she has considered all the information
:18:39. > :18:43.before she made that decision. She says it is based on the best
:18:44. > :18:53.scientific information. Let me ask Eddie. Surely, we are human beings
:18:54. > :18:58.we can move forward, gay people, transgender people, it's what we
:18:59. > :19:02.contribute to the world. It was 2011 in the rest of the UK and it has
:19:03. > :19:09.taken time to get through here, let us move positively forward to a
:19:10. > :19:12.brighter future. On the eve you, I do not think you have persuaded each
:19:13. > :19:15.other but people are home will tell us whether you are persuaded them.
:19:16. > :19:20.-- on the EU. For the first time since the signing
:19:21. > :19:24.of the Good Friday Agreement there's now a DUP -
:19:25. > :19:27.rather than a Sinn Fein - Peter Weir, unlike his
:19:28. > :19:32.predecessors, is a supporter But will that mean big changes
:19:33. > :19:36.in future for the way children transfer from primary
:19:37. > :19:37.to post-primary schools? Our Education Correspondent, Robbie
:19:38. > :19:42.Meredith, has been finding out. What is best for the future of
:19:43. > :19:48.pupils like these at this primary School in Belfast has divided
:19:49. > :19:55.teachers, parents and ministers for years. Since they introduced the
:19:56. > :20:01.transfer test, the then Education Minister thought she had got away
:20:02. > :20:06.with that 40 years later. There will be no 11 plus and normalise either
:20:07. > :20:11.asking primary school educators to disrupt and interfere with the
:20:12. > :20:17.revised curriculum in favour of a transfer test. It has been each year
:20:18. > :20:23.since the last 11 plus exam. Temporary testing systems were set
:20:24. > :20:28.up to decide which grammar schools pupils should attend look like they
:20:29. > :20:34.are here to stay. That does not mean opposition to academic selection has
:20:35. > :20:39.lessened. These A-level pupils did not sit a transfer test and they go
:20:40. > :20:45.to one of the top non-selection schools in Northern Ireland. The
:20:46. > :20:50.reason we are successful as we do not test children at 11. Children
:20:51. > :20:55.are coming in here with low self-esteem. If you create a two
:20:56. > :21:00.tier system, some people will be failures in that system. The main
:21:01. > :21:05.thing grammar schools do is take all the pupils who are deemed to be
:21:06. > :21:09.successful and you leave a raft of people who have low self-esteem and
:21:10. > :21:15.feel they have been failed by the education system. We cannot afford
:21:16. > :21:20.to do that in the 21st century. A recent draft report into links
:21:21. > :21:31.regarding educational achievement and deprivation concluded this sort
:21:32. > :21:35.of education favoured privileged. The final version of this research
:21:36. > :21:39.which took three years has not yet been published. I understand the
:21:40. > :21:47.conclusions about academic selection may be changed before it is. Those
:21:48. > :21:53.conclusions are not something these parents agree with. QC appearance
:21:54. > :21:59.are stressed and children who are stressed. The vast majority enjoy
:22:00. > :22:05.the challenge of the test. This system gives people choices. Not
:22:06. > :22:11.every school is suitable for every child. It is important every child
:22:12. > :22:16.is matched to the school which gives them the best opportunities.
:22:17. > :22:22.Selection has afforded parents a choice in the past. Loading them to
:22:23. > :22:27.maintain traditions and their family as opposed to a more occupational
:22:28. > :22:33.route. The essence is to ensure a child is best matched to the school
:22:34. > :22:37.which provides what they need. More appearance than ever are preparing
:22:38. > :22:42.-- putting children to the transfer test. The assessment exams are
:22:43. > :22:48.mostly used by car thing grammar schools while the other exams are
:22:49. > :22:52.used by controlled schools. -- catholic grammar schools. The new
:22:53. > :22:58.Education Minister does not want to return to the 11 plus tests. They
:22:59. > :23:04.want to combine ease to test into one. We want to talk to the people
:23:05. > :23:10.involved and Steve Wrekin do that this year. A single test would be
:23:11. > :23:18.utterly impossible this year. The registration process has been going
:23:19. > :23:24.on for the last month. We have 3000 registrations. The schools have been
:23:25. > :23:28.preparing their children. To turn around and say we're now going to
:23:29. > :23:33.have a single test which will be different with simply be impossible.
:23:34. > :23:37.We could not do that. Both testing organisations have met regularly but
:23:38. > :23:41.they cannot agree on whether the test should be paid for by parents
:23:42. > :23:45.or what form it should take. If we work hard to reach agreement on
:23:46. > :23:51.those important issues, especially the issue of funding then we have to
:23:52. > :23:56.put together a test which is agreeable to both of us. We will
:23:57. > :24:00.have to trial it in some way, provide past papers and give
:24:01. > :24:07.information to schools. You are looking at a lead-in period of, if I
:24:08. > :24:15.said to Mike years, I think that would be too tight timetable. # two
:24:16. > :24:20.years. I think at least three years. This principle of the school just
:24:21. > :24:26.once the decision. We are looking for clarity. What we're hearing from
:24:27. > :24:30.the government is a new model and a new way of looking at decisions. We
:24:31. > :24:37.would like the Department of education to make a decision one way
:24:38. > :24:44.or other as to what is the week ahead. In the immediate future,
:24:45. > :24:47.things are set to stay very much the same.
:24:48. > :24:50.Well, with me now are Bob McCartney, who's the chair of the National
:24:51. > :24:52.Grammar Schools' Association, and in our Foyle studio
:24:53. > :24:55.is the Bishop of Derry and former school principal Donal McKeown.
:24:56. > :25:05.Do you expect the DUP to deliver - and soon - on a single test here?
:25:06. > :25:16.I think they would like to but I think it is difficult. We have heard
:25:17. > :25:20.from one of the commentators that it may take three years. I think that
:25:21. > :25:25.isn't hardly reasonable. It is something you would like to say, you
:25:26. > :25:30.think the DUP should be working towards this? I think it should be
:25:31. > :25:40.working towards a single test but the questioners, which test? There
:25:41. > :25:43.are two tests, the AQ t-test has been standardised and validated
:25:44. > :25:49.which cannot be said about the GL test. Do you think it is possible
:25:50. > :25:56.for some compromise to be reached between the two organisations? I
:25:57. > :26:02.would hope so. One point of difference is the first test has
:26:03. > :26:08.three test and the other has two. They have three because they
:26:09. > :26:11.recognise that many children, especially from disadvantaged areas,
:26:12. > :26:19.have not been coached or tutors as they used to be under the old 11
:26:20. > :26:23.plus. The reason for three tests, the first test is to acquaint them
:26:24. > :26:29.with the process and make them relaxed. Also it is the best of
:26:30. > :26:36.three which is picked. So the element of luck is removed. Do you
:26:37. > :26:41.feel you have lost an ally with the DUP taking over the education
:26:42. > :26:47.portfolio from Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein are opposed to selection at 11 as
:26:48. > :26:52.you are and the DUP is in favour? I am annoyed and disappointed, not at
:26:53. > :26:57.the appointment of a particular Minister, my concern is we will end
:26:58. > :27:02.up wasting an enormous amount of time focusing on whether we should
:27:03. > :27:08.have an 11 plus transfer test, grammar schools or not rather than
:27:09. > :27:14.asking the fundamental question, how on earth are we going to move from
:27:15. > :27:19.an underachieving system which feels 20% of our young people at 16 with
:27:20. > :27:24.lack of qualifications and how do we change our system in order to
:27:25. > :27:28.provide junk people with the skills and qualifications for an
:27:29. > :27:36.entrepreneurial society? -- young people. If only we could remove the
:27:37. > :27:40.transfer test, we think, but we need a fundamental look at what will
:27:41. > :27:44.deliver positive outcomes for all our young people and then ask a
:27:45. > :27:51.question as to how we do that rather than getting tied up and going rent
:27:52. > :27:56.in circles as we do at present about whether we have a single transfer
:27:57. > :28:03.test, grammar schools or not. Does that mean that you are accepting the
:28:04. > :28:07.reality that the selection test are here to stay and will not go away
:28:08. > :28:10.and there are many catholic grammar schools which have not moved away
:28:11. > :28:17.from selection despite being urged to do so by you and other Catholic
:28:18. > :28:22.Bishops? A good number have or are in the process of doing it. A lot
:28:23. > :28:26.still have not. It is a long time since I met anyone in the catholic
:28:27. > :28:32.system who is in favour of the current system and believes it is a
:28:33. > :28:36.good one. There is a fair if they move unilaterally they will be
:28:37. > :28:39.disadvantaged. I have not heard anyone say it is good for
:28:40. > :28:45.educational outcomes. Catholic grammar schools want to contribute
:28:46. > :28:52.to a successful education system here. We have to find what is the
:28:53. > :28:56.best way to deliver quality outcomes for everybody and the current system
:28:57. > :29:01.is not doing that. Catholic grammar schools know that. You must disagree
:29:02. > :29:09.because you believe selection works, why do believe that works? I believe
:29:10. > :29:14.works because we have the best GCSE results and A-level results in the
:29:15. > :29:19.United Kingdom. This suggestion that it is selection which is
:29:20. > :29:25.disadvantaging 20% of the community is fallacious. It is because the
:29:26. > :29:34.real problem is in the primary schools. The primary schools are not
:29:35. > :29:40.delivering enough children who at 11, when they moved in to post
:29:41. > :29:42.primary education, art able to read, write and count properly. That is
:29:43. > :29:56.the big deficit. What is your response to the report
:29:57. > :30:01.that talks about links and saying that children are favoured with
:30:02. > :30:07.academic parents, and those who can afford private jitters? Let me point
:30:08. > :30:11.out that the biggest asset a child can have from an educational point
:30:12. > :30:18.of view is to have aspirational parents. And in many sections of the
:30:19. > :30:23.community, there is that absence. For example, in north Belfast there
:30:24. > :30:26.is an absence of aspiration. In which case selection does not help,
:30:27. > :30:33.if you do not have aspirational parents, if you have selection a
:30:34. > :30:39.lot, you are in trouble. Selection comes after the failure to deliver
:30:40. > :30:45.children at 11 who are articulate, who are numerate, and who can write
:30:46. > :30:49.properly. If, when they going to post primary education they have not
:30:50. > :30:53.got those attributes, they never ever get them. That is an
:30:54. > :30:57.established educational fight from both sides of the divide. Let's see
:30:58. > :31:03.what the bishop says in response. How do you counter what Bob
:31:04. > :31:06.McCartney has just said? I think the current situation assumes that since
:31:07. > :31:11.42% of young people will be at grammar schools then 42% of young
:31:12. > :31:15.people are academically inclined arrest of occasional. If 70% were
:31:16. > :31:19.academically inclined there still would be room only for 42% in the
:31:20. > :31:24.grammar schools. In other words we have a system which is structured in
:31:25. > :31:30.such a way it serves the needs of the schools rather than looking to
:31:31. > :31:33.see what has good outcomes. I am in the west of the province as you
:31:34. > :31:38.know, and the most entrepreneurial part of Northern Ireland is that
:31:39. > :31:44.space where the vast majority of schools are not grammar schools. We
:31:45. > :31:50.need places which do not divide young people into two artificial
:31:51. > :31:53.silos at 11 on the basis of a fallacious test that is not measure
:31:54. > :31:57.intelligence or potential and moved to a system that asks how we measure
:31:58. > :32:00.outcomes that will better our economy and help all young people to
:32:01. > :32:07.succeed and not just some full stop a final response? I think it is
:32:08. > :32:10.false gesture and that is being made. The grammar schools have
:32:11. > :32:15.demonstrated over the years that they are the most effective vehicle
:32:16. > :32:20.for upwards social mobility. Even Labour opponents like Lord Adonis of
:32:21. > :32:25.selection have said that in the absence of selection on merit by
:32:26. > :32:32.test, what we get is selection on postcode, social position and money.
:32:33. > :32:39.For my part, I am determined that children from my background in 2016
:32:40. > :32:43.will have the benefit I had in 1948. I was the youngest of eight children
:32:44. > :32:48.from a back street, and of thing I have achieved is down to a grammar
:32:49. > :32:49.school education. Gentlemen, we will leave you there. Thank you very much
:32:50. > :32:49.indeed. Let's hear what tonight's
:32:50. > :32:51.commentators make of Chris Donnelly and the Reverend
:32:52. > :33:02.Lesley Carroll are with me. Nice to see you both. Leslie, you're
:33:03. > :33:10.back from your trials and relations at the ballot box. Glad to be that
:33:11. > :33:13.behind you? Absolutely. But stop first of all about the selection
:33:14. > :33:19.discussion we have just had with Mr McCartney and the Bishop. You are a
:33:20. > :33:25.teacher, any primary School in north Belfast. Yes, I am based printable
:33:26. > :33:28.of a primary school in north Belfast and I can tell Bob there are very
:33:29. > :33:35.many aspirational parents in north Belfast. I think the issue here is
:33:36. > :33:38.wider. I find it disconcerting from my background that the first thing
:33:39. > :33:43.the DUP since taking up education have focused on is the issue of
:33:44. > :33:48.academic selection and the test. But it cannot surprise you. It does in
:33:49. > :33:52.one sense, because I think the party now the real issue they face is not
:33:53. > :33:56.whether there are two or three or four tests in the autumn of primary
:33:57. > :34:02.six four children wanting to go to grammar school. The challenge facing
:34:03. > :34:05.them is going to be, how will he tackle the issue of educational
:34:06. > :34:08.underachievement? And Summers party's perspective, how do the
:34:09. > :34:12.square continued support for academic selection with the fact
:34:13. > :34:17.that leads directly to the long tail of underachievement in this society?
:34:18. > :34:21.And a pick-up in on Bob's point, the heroes of our system are those in
:34:22. > :34:28.the non-grammar sector. We send the vast majority of our per children,
:34:29. > :34:31.the vast majority of those with difficulties, we corralled into
:34:32. > :34:35.non-grammar schools and say to the teachers, you do the heavy lifting.
:34:36. > :34:38.Leslie, do you have any support the further view to Best Buy Bob
:34:39. > :34:43.McCartney, says that what selection does do is it gives kids from
:34:44. > :34:48.backstreet an opportunity to survive the highest level? I don't think the
:34:49. > :34:53.system we have now does that at all. Mr McCartney talks about the absence
:34:54. > :34:59.of aspiration. That Assembly not true. Any parent in north Belfast
:35:00. > :35:02.have great aspiration for the kids they just do not know how to get in
:35:03. > :35:08.on the system. Therefore the system is closing them out, by tests that
:35:09. > :35:12.are run in different ways, where you go and privately get your kids
:35:13. > :35:17.jitters to be able to respond to what the test puts in front of you.
:35:18. > :35:23.It is not merit-based, it is postcode -based. Is it now the case,
:35:24. > :35:28.briefly, that the issue of getting rid of any kind of selection at 11
:35:29. > :35:33.is off the table, because the DUP can keep the system going as it is
:35:34. > :35:39.for as long as they want to? The Sinn Fein agenda has gone, Hazard? I
:35:40. > :35:42.think within the Catholic sector there will be some grammar schools
:35:43. > :35:48.or move towards all ability, but the focus will shift towards how, if we
:35:49. > :35:50.retain selection, how will education deal with the issue of
:35:51. > :35:56.underachievement, and that is significant. And what about the gay
:35:57. > :36:00.blood ban? We saw that lifted today. What does that say about the
:36:01. > :36:05.relationship that is beginning to unfold between Sinn Fein and the DUP
:36:06. > :36:10.at Stormont? A new relationship, if we believe what they say. It is
:36:11. > :36:15.interesting, and important timing for Sinn Fein. Has been a perception
:36:16. > :36:19.for while now that there is only the two parties in the executive, and a
:36:20. > :36:25.perception that the DUP are holding the whip hand. This is something
:36:26. > :36:28.that Sinn Fein can show that this is consistent with their agenda and
:36:29. > :36:32.ideology and something the DUP have argued against women held the post,
:36:33. > :36:35.and they have now had to concede on that. And how does today's
:36:36. > :36:41.development fit into the wider equality agenda? It is interesting
:36:42. > :36:44.that the Minister has sold this on the back of being evidence -based. I
:36:45. > :36:49.think that Israeli important for the equality agenda. We have to work
:36:50. > :36:54.from a strong evidence base to inform policy. I figured is
:36:55. > :36:57.extremely important, and the LGBT community have acknowledged the
:36:58. > :37:03.importance of this by them playing their full part in society. You are
:37:04. > :37:06.pleased? I am pleased. Let's talk about our EU debate between Eddie
:37:07. > :37:12.Izzard and Sammy Wilson. What did you make of it? It got heated at
:37:13. > :37:16.times, which is good. Part of the criticism of the Remain campaign is
:37:17. > :37:20.that it has been focused on fair, fear of the unknown, fear that
:37:21. > :37:24.mortgages would increase, fear of recession. And one other things that
:37:25. > :37:28.Eddie Izzard try to pick up on, and Jeremy Corbyn did today, was a
:37:29. > :37:31.left-wing view of a positive affirmation of the state remaining
:37:32. > :37:37.in AE you, it is better for workers' writes, better for the economy. That
:37:38. > :37:42.is important, because the need to be that elements to encourage Labour
:37:43. > :37:45.voters particularly to turn out. And they tend to talk at each other
:37:46. > :37:49.maybe then to each other. If you were sitting at home, undecided,
:37:50. > :37:55.with that help you make your mind up? Absolutely not. Edwards to
:37:56. > :37:57.bolster up the mess upon which all of this is existing opened. We will
:37:58. > :37:59.leave it there, thank you very much. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35
:38:00. > :38:01.here on BBC One. Earlier I was talking
:38:02. > :38:05.to the comedian Eddie Izzard, he spent part of his
:38:06. > :38:08.childhood growing up And he can still make a decent stab
:38:09. > :38:25.at the accent. I was watching a documentary called
:38:26. > :38:29.Clash of the Titans. And what is phase, Liam Neeson, he was playing
:38:30. > :38:34.Zeus the God of all things and Liam Neeson is famous now in Hollywood,
:38:35. > :38:41.all the way from Northern Ireland. So he is there in the middle going:
:38:42. > :38:47.NORTHERN IRISH ACCENT: another is happening with the people? You tell
:38:48. > :38:53.them from me they better buck up their ideas. This is a very early
:38:54. > :38:59.impression of Liam Neeson, by the way. NORTHERN IRISH ACCENT: "They
:39:00. > :39:00.better buck up their ideas, otherwise I will