:00:00. > :00:00.Cross-border trade, investment, jobs, farming and immigration -
:00:00. > :00:09.the EU referendum is building to a climax.
:00:10. > :00:11.Tonight on a special edition of The View
:00:12. > :00:13.we're in Londonderry, a city on the border,
:00:14. > :00:15.with a specially invited audience quizzing a panel
:00:16. > :00:38.on whether we should Leave or Remain.
:00:39. > :00:40.Two weeks from now, at locations right across the UK,
:00:41. > :00:44.counting will be under way in the EU referendum.
:00:45. > :00:47.Voters are faced with one question: Should the United Kingdom remain
:00:48. > :00:56.This everning we're in St Cecilia's College in Derry
:00:57. > :00:59.with a specially invited audience asking questions
:01:00. > :01:02.of a panel of four - two supporting the Remain camp
:01:03. > :01:07.This is a city on the border and should the Leave camp win out
:01:08. > :01:10.it could mean major changes for this part of the world.
:01:11. > :01:13.However, over the course of the next hour, we'll hear all the arguments
:01:14. > :01:23.The EU referendum campaign is at its height and tonight we'll
:01:24. > :01:26.be looking at the issues at the core of this UK-wide debate -
:01:27. > :01:29.how it will affect life in Northern Ireland and around
:01:30. > :01:34.This city has been the focus of some very high profile campaigners today.
:01:35. > :01:38.Earlier, two former Prime Ministers, Tony Blair and John Major,
:01:39. > :01:41.were in the city visiting the Magee university campus to take
:01:42. > :01:43.questions from students, both making a united
:01:44. > :01:49.But here at St Cecilia's, we've our own high profile political
:01:50. > :01:54.figures with very different points of view taking questions
:01:55. > :01:59.They are the Sinn Fein MEP Martina Anderson,
:02:00. > :02:01.who supports Remain, the DUP MP Gregory Campbell,
:02:02. > :02:04.who wants to leave, as does the People Before Profit MLA
:02:05. > :02:11.Eamonn McCann, and our fourth panellist is the Fianna Fail TD
:02:12. > :02:13.from Donegal, Charlie McConalogue, who also wants the UK
:02:14. > :02:34.Welcome to our studio audience as well. Debtors go straight to our
:02:35. > :02:40.first question. It is from Jeanette Warke, a Community worker in
:02:41. > :02:45.Fountain estate. . I haven't made my mind up as to who
:02:46. > :02:54.to vote for yet. How can you convince me.
:02:55. > :03:01.There are a number of factors. The first is the cost. We get told
:03:02. > :03:07.her to spend some of our money that comes back and what restrictions
:03:08. > :03:12.there are on that money. We have no control over the immigration policy
:03:13. > :03:18.because you cannot control who comes or goes within the EU. Two years
:03:19. > :03:24.ago, our economy was growing so fast that the EU level a bill on the UK
:03:25. > :03:34.of ?1.7 billion. You probably remember that David Cameron said he
:03:35. > :03:40.was not going to pay it because it was outside the eurozone. David
:03:41. > :03:45.Cameron said we are not paying it. Six months later we had to pay and
:03:46. > :03:56.that role is going to grow. The restrictions and bureaucracy will
:03:57. > :04:01.grow. We shouldn't stay in this Sharapova the European union.
:04:02. > :04:06.Martina Anderson, I presume you take a different view on most of those
:04:07. > :04:15.points. How would you convince Janet to remain.
:04:16. > :04:19.The constituency I care about is my own and well Gregory is right that
:04:20. > :04:31.the British government make a net contribution to EU, without doubt we
:04:32. > :04:44.are net beneficiaries. To the chin of 3.5 billion. --
:04:45. > :04:54.TUNE. The British government has said that it is not going to give us
:04:55. > :05:00.any reassurance that it will replace that European funding. As well as
:05:01. > :05:06.the funding, I know you work and many people in the audience work,
:05:07. > :05:10.and the thing that Sinn Fein does is that we assess every file and
:05:11. > :05:21.regulation that comes through our desk and see if this will benefit
:05:22. > :05:28.the people or not. Whether it is worker rights or consumer rights,
:05:29. > :05:35.they would not be replaced by a hostile and hawkish UK Government.
:05:36. > :05:40.He probably have a different world view from Gregory Campbell's but as
:05:41. > :05:48.far as this vote goes, do you agree with him?
:05:49. > :05:56.I don't agree with him. I can carve out my own political space. One
:05:57. > :05:59.thing that has confused people in making up their minds is when you
:06:00. > :06:03.look at the people who are leading the campaigns, when they see RS
:06:04. > :06:08.Johnson and Nigel Farage facing David Cameron and George Osborne, it
:06:09. > :06:20.is difficult for a decent person to come down the decisively on one side
:06:21. > :06:28.or another. In judging whether the EU is a good or bad thing, look at
:06:29. > :06:34.whether it serves the interests of humanity. I believe that the
:06:35. > :06:38.European Union is a club for rich people. I do not agree that the
:06:39. > :06:43.European Union has defended workers' rights at all. You ask why it was
:06:44. > :06:58.possible for the state to intervene and save jobs such as those at Tata
:06:59. > :07:03.Steel pinwheels. -- in Wales. That is because it would be against
:07:04. > :07:09.European competition policy. All I'm saying is we have to consider and
:07:10. > :07:12.what alternative. This cannot be the best possible thing we can do in the
:07:13. > :07:18.continent of Europe. Quickly on that.
:07:19. > :07:22.I do want to come back because as a member of the EU, we have access not
:07:23. > :07:29.just of the single market at European Court of Justice. There are
:07:30. > :07:32.a litany of cases, for instance trade unions going to the European
:07:33. > :07:37.Court of Justice to get low paid workers, mainly women, like a that
:07:38. > :07:43.the British government would not pay for. If we are out of the year you
:07:44. > :07:47.you would not only get access to the single market, you're not getting
:07:48. > :07:52.access to the European Court of Justice. Gregory may not be happy
:07:53. > :07:57.about that -- Gregory might be happy about that Banega tell you that many
:07:58. > :08:04.others would not be happy. -- I can tell you.
:08:05. > :08:18.But he referred to the European Union has erected man's club.
:08:19. > :08:24.I looked back -- rich man's club. I want to say that Sinn Fein has
:08:25. > :08:34.been critically engaged with Europe and be very clear about this. We
:08:35. > :08:37.assess everything that passes are desk to see if it will influence on
:08:38. > :08:42.benefit the people that we represent. We know there is a
:08:43. > :08:48.democratic deficit. I can agree with Gregory on that. We are the people
:08:49. > :08:52.in the area arguing for reform kazoo on a social and democratic Europe
:08:53. > :08:57.and a better Europe. You want to come back on that.
:08:58. > :09:06.I have heard some of the main site say they wanted reforms. There is no
:09:07. > :09:09.more reform if we fought to stay in. The only way of getting reform is to
:09:10. > :09:16.say to the French and the Germans we have had enough, we are off. If that
:09:17. > :09:19.happens, the next day both France and Germany will get together and
:09:20. > :09:24.say we know have a European issue that has to be resolved and other
:09:25. > :09:29.nations will follow because we have got a liberalising attempt to try
:09:30. > :09:33.and ensure that this charade finishes and start afresh.
:09:34. > :09:37.You hope but you cannot be sure of that.
:09:38. > :09:43.We can certainly be sure that if we vote to stay in than everything will
:09:44. > :09:45.be the same as it was. You would like to see the collapse
:09:46. > :09:51.of the European Union. I would like to see I knew you were
:09:52. > :09:57.independent states can do their own deals and we can cooperation
:09:58. > :10:01.internationally across borders. You don't have a vote but you do
:10:02. > :10:10.have a few. I'm in a different desertion in that
:10:11. > :10:15.I do not have a vote and 94 the chance to talk about the potential
:10:16. > :10:23.impact on the Republic, on neighbouring people. Although we do
:10:24. > :10:30.not have a vote, this is one of the more significant referenda as
:10:31. > :10:40.politically to the taking place in recent years. It is not about
:10:41. > :10:59.reform. It is about neighbouring countries
:11:00. > :11:04.but also neighbouring counties. I believe that working together and
:11:05. > :11:08.staying united with Europe as part of the common market is much more in
:11:09. > :11:12.the interest of economic development of Northern Ireland.
:11:13. > :11:21.Is this about self interested in you in the Republic in concerned? I was
:11:22. > :11:30.talking to Peter Sutherland, the former Attorney General, he said
:11:31. > :11:32.that Brexit with the biggest crisis for the Republic and a number of
:11:33. > :11:45.years. You agree with that? I do agree with
:11:46. > :11:54.that. If the vote is to leave the European Union, that will be a
:11:55. > :11:59.border with the European Union and that has significant impact in terms
:12:00. > :12:06.of the potential of Kent is to grow and develop.
:12:07. > :12:15.Can I ask you something? Two former prime ministers arrived in this city
:12:16. > :12:21.of Londonderry and a mate Dave Regis suggestion that the peace process
:12:22. > :12:28.would be jeopardised. There's not a single person that believe that. Why
:12:29. > :12:33.would they come out with something like that? And it is given some kind
:12:34. > :12:42.of credibility by the media. Do you agree with that?
:12:43. > :12:48.I think we should work together. Do you agree with that? If you look
:12:49. > :12:53.at working together as an important part of the peace process, then that
:12:54. > :12:57.is I think their argument. But do you agree with that?
:12:58. > :13:02.We will be talking about other issues including immigration. That
:13:03. > :13:14.would have massive impact in relation to the development of the
:13:15. > :13:21.area. Hard to get back to the questioner.
:13:22. > :13:28.Has that help to you? Or has it made it even more difficult.
:13:29. > :13:32.I would like to thank the panel for their comments. It has been very
:13:33. > :13:38.useful. Had you decided?
:13:39. > :13:42.I am thinking about it. I see a glint in your eyes so are
:13:43. > :13:47.you wearing or going in one direction or another.
:13:48. > :14:01.I think I know which way I am going. And are you going to tell us?
:14:02. > :14:06.I suppose it is a -- no. I suppose it is a secret ballot.
:14:07. > :14:10.I think the most important thing to be said about the visit of the two
:14:11. > :14:20.prime ministers is what they had to say about the European issue and the
:14:21. > :14:25.peace process. John Major and Tony Blair, steeped in blood, coming
:14:26. > :14:31.amongst us to talk about it as an insult. People like Lear and other
:14:32. > :14:35.outlaws are coming to us and talking about this.
:14:36. > :14:40.It is not her Tony Blair sees itself and others in the international
:14:41. > :14:44.community aid. He made a very constructive contribution to the
:14:45. > :14:55.process then Northern Ireland. The peace process has been
:14:56. > :14:59.underpinned, given -- what has given solid back into the peace process is
:15:00. > :15:02.the will of the people on all sides to engage with one another which
:15:03. > :15:06.they know is going to be futile. That is what these process is about.
:15:07. > :15:18.When Blair is marginal to these matters.
:15:19. > :15:27.Do you believe they have wildly over claimed today? Nobody will be
:15:28. > :15:31.surprised to hear that anything that former British Prime Minister 's
:15:32. > :15:41.have had to say to day or in the past has ever influenced me. I can
:15:42. > :15:46.accept there is a broad feud in opinion but I would listen to a Ukip
:15:47. > :15:51.representative in the north who yesterday called for the British
:15:52. > :15:59.Army to come back to the Borders. In terms of our piece process if we
:16:00. > :16:05.cannot just dismiss that this is not going to have an implication with an
:16:06. > :16:14.EU border stuck right in the heart of Ireland, for all of my life I
:16:15. > :16:18.have resisted partition, and to think of what Europe would do for
:16:19. > :16:34.Borders and checkpoints, we only have to look. Our whole different
:16:35. > :16:39.argument. It was more than Tony Blair and major lost the plot. What
:16:40. > :16:51.I want to say, they have not influenced me, but in terms of the
:16:52. > :16:58.Peace Process, trade, investment, 23,000 people cross the border every
:16:59. > :17:03.day to work or to study. Those are issues we are going to pick up on
:17:04. > :17:09.now with the rest of the audience. Let us move on to our second
:17:10. > :17:19.question. It is from Paul Gosling, a financial journalist raced here.
:17:20. > :17:23.George Osborne said that the UK leads the EU unemployment in
:17:24. > :17:27.Northern Ireland will rise by 14,000, including an extra 2000
:17:28. > :17:36.youth unemployment. Does the panel share that view? 14,000 extra and
:17:37. > :17:44.implied, is that what you are saying? The honest answer is I do
:17:45. > :17:52.not know and neither does George Osborne. The idea that people are
:17:53. > :17:58.giving as precise figures about how employment is going to work, the
:17:59. > :18:06.rhythm of trade is going to work. They do not know. Look at the
:18:07. > :18:17.forecasting record of people in the past. The IMF. The European Central
:18:18. > :18:21.Bank, the British Government, the British Treasury, the Federal
:18:22. > :18:26.reserve, they all have one thing in common. Not one of them saw the 2008
:18:27. > :18:32.crash coming even when it was happening. They still could not see
:18:33. > :18:35.it. Their forecasts over the years and decades have been disastrous.
:18:36. > :18:38.Why should we listen to them know when they come out with the Digg
:18:39. > :18:50.this week precise figures about the effect on unemployment. On this do
:18:51. > :18:58.you think the Chancellor may be right? It is not pro-Europe or
:18:59. > :19:00.anti-Europe. We do not have too listen to all these people that you
:19:01. > :19:09.have quoted. Look at the Department of enterprise
:19:10. > :19:22.trade and investment. The day you P minister in the past. -- bit DUP
:19:23. > :19:32.minister in the past. They have said they will be a 5% drop. What are
:19:33. > :19:35.they saying? This is a gateway to 500 million potential customers.
:19:36. > :19:46.What do they want to do? They want to close that gate. That is their
:19:47. > :19:52.wrong way to look at it. It is 500 million group of people shutting out
:19:53. > :20:00.the rest of the world. When we talk about the EU you have to take into
:20:01. > :20:05.account about freedom of movement of people that people from North
:20:06. > :20:09.Africa, fleeing for safety for their lives, their aspired wire against
:20:10. > :20:12.them put up by the EU. They have got freedom of movement to sing to the
:20:13. > :20:18.bottom of the Mediterranean Sea while people stand alone applauding
:20:19. > :20:21.the EU. Do you find yourself agreeing with the British
:20:22. > :20:27.Chancellor? I am not sure where George Osborne got a figure. What
:20:28. > :20:34.about the principle? It was a decision made it would be negative
:20:35. > :20:41.for the Northern Irish economy. But you cannot be sure. Look at the
:20:42. > :20:45.experience of the Republic in joining Europe. When we join to 60%
:20:46. > :20:50.of exports were going to Britain, today it is less than 20%. Northern
:20:51. > :20:54.Ireland at the moment is today exports are heavily towards Britain
:20:55. > :20:58.but there is potential for Northern Ireland to increase exports to the
:20:59. > :21:01.rest of Europe. And evidently the fact that there was the Troubles
:21:02. > :21:09.meant it was not able to benefit from trade. This week we had the
:21:10. > :21:12.latest official trade figures for Northern Ireland which show an
:21:13. > :21:20.increase in manufacturing exports being driven by sales to countries
:21:21. > :21:27.outside the European Union, up 28% outside the EU, EU exports up 4%.
:21:28. > :21:30.Arguably it is already happening. It shows that Northern Ireland is
:21:31. > :21:33.making progress and finding new markets outside the European Union
:21:34. > :21:39.but it needs to develop further. It is to develop further its exports to
:21:40. > :21:41.the European Union. If Northern Ireland is now decide to leave the
:21:42. > :21:47.European Union and its border between itself and the rest of
:21:48. > :21:53.Europe it more difficult to feel that capacity to improve upon
:21:54. > :21:58.itself. EU trade as a share of international trade globally is
:21:59. > :22:04.declining. It is still very important. It is important but that
:22:05. > :22:07.is declining. As more countries join the EU, more impoverished countries,
:22:08. > :22:12.does anybody think that will be reversed? It will continue to be
:22:13. > :22:17.declined. We should not restrict our markets to Europe but we should go
:22:18. > :22:23.outside Europe. Youth unemployment is a very important issue. Look at
:22:24. > :22:32.youth and employment in the Eurozone. 45% youth unemployment in
:22:33. > :22:36.Spain, in Portugal, in France, countries across the Eurozone, youth
:22:37. > :22:41.unemployment is soaring. Are we going to stay within that
:22:42. > :22:45.restrictive club that minimises the impact of entrepreneurship, or get
:22:46. > :22:51.the odd that I'm into a world that is waiting for the trade that we can
:22:52. > :22:59.offer them? Let me come back. You have heard a range of opinion. What
:23:00. > :23:04.is your hunch? Do you think that that precise figure of 14000 and
:23:05. > :23:09.2000 is a figure that could be arrived at correctly by the
:23:10. > :23:11.Chancellor? Both campaigns have pretended that they can come up with
:23:12. > :23:17.accurate figures when they are guessing. I would be astonished if
:23:18. > :23:21.we left if there was not serious economic damage particularly to a
:23:22. > :23:25.border city like this. It would be damaging to Derry. A lot of people
:23:26. > :23:28.are nodding. Does anybody want to make a quick point on this in
:23:29. > :23:35.Agreement that the Chancellor has got it right? Just in the second row
:23:36. > :23:42.from the back. You are a businessman with a farming background. We are as
:23:43. > :23:51.value-added business. The customer base stretchers from the deep South
:23:52. > :23:58.to the far north of the Republic. The last thing that I need is to
:23:59. > :24:04.send vehicles that need more controls, more paperwork and perhaps
:24:05. > :24:08.Tallis to continue my business. I just wonder what the Leave campaign
:24:09. > :24:12.can assure me about on that particular point estimate we will
:24:13. > :24:17.come onto Border Controls and a moment but you raise an interesting
:24:18. > :24:21.point. The complexity is that all the issues are fundamentally
:24:22. > :24:28.interconnected. You think economic elite you have got a red flag as far
:24:29. > :24:36.as the is concerned? Yes. Department of biker culture statistics in the
:24:37. > :24:43.last year, 183 million and, received in environmental support from the EU
:24:44. > :24:51.236 million. If that stops or that is seriously reduced then there is a
:24:52. > :24:54.fantastic meltdown of production in agriculture as we know it in
:24:55. > :25:01.Northern Ireland. What assurances can the Leave campaign bring to me
:25:02. > :25:08.that will prove to me that I should vote for Leave? All right. Let us
:25:09. > :25:16.hear from somebody who wants to ask a question which is connected very
:25:17. > :25:21.much to that. Robert Moore is also a farmer, just outside Derry. You have
:25:22. > :25:30.got a question that make use up some of those issues. Those figures are
:25:31. > :25:34.quite correct. My concern is that the net income last year was 53
:25:35. > :25:42.million less than we get in a total subsidy. That is not sustainable. I
:25:43. > :25:47.am just wondering, asking the panel, what can the common Agricultural
:25:48. > :25:52.Policy do to correct that or is the common Agricultural Policy no longer
:25:53. > :25:58.fit for purpose? Is that policy no longer fit for purpose? That is a
:25:59. > :26:06.good question and thank you for asking it. I was the only member of
:26:07. > :26:12.the European Parliament in the north who voted against what was proposed
:26:13. > :26:20.by Britain, a reduction in the EU budget. I have been saying that a
:26:21. > :26:25.consequence would routes be a reduction to all the six dedicated
:26:26. > :26:33.funding streams that come in here. There would be a reduction to
:26:34. > :26:37.competitive funding streams. 85% of income of farmers comes from the
:26:38. > :26:40.Common Agricultural Policy and therefore, particularly small
:26:41. > :26:48.farmers that length and breadth of Ireland, and here in the north, are
:26:49. > :26:55.reliant on it. Common Agricultural Policy is this all competency of the
:26:56. > :26:59.EU. It is not the responsibility of the British Government to replace
:27:00. > :27:10.it. If there is a Leave and a leap into the dark, and we go out and
:27:11. > :27:17.trade with the world, it took 15 years for there to be a negotiation
:27:18. > :27:21.with Latin America about bananas. You can see the time frame for a
:27:22. > :27:28.cheap deal to be put in place with all of these countries. Robert
:27:29. > :27:34.Moore's pointers even with the policy in place the income of
:27:35. > :27:39.farmers has fallen significantly. If you put all your eggs in the basket
:27:40. > :27:43.of the Common Agricultural Policy why would you do that? The British
:27:44. > :27:50.Government and the other member States putting less money into the
:27:51. > :27:54.EU, I was the only member of the European Parliament, and I topped
:27:55. > :27:59.two groups and organisations and businesses, to try to demonstrate to
:28:00. > :28:02.people the implication that this was going to have for Ireland,
:28:03. > :28:08.particularly the north. Unfortunately that came to pass.
:28:09. > :28:13.What is your response? This is nonsense. The issue of Remain or
:28:14. > :28:19.leave in terms of agriculture, let us look at this. There is a Remain
:28:20. > :28:23.vote, there is this myth that if there is a Remain vote farmers and
:28:24. > :28:27.the agricultural community know what they have, as if that will continue
:28:28. > :28:31.to be the case. It will not continue to be the case. The more countries
:28:32. > :28:39.that come into the EU, the bigger the June there will be on those
:28:40. > :28:41.incoming countries. The only certainty about Remain for the
:28:42. > :28:45.agricultural community is going to be that the amount of money what
:28:46. > :28:50.ever is faulted for, is going to decline. If we leave we will be able
:28:51. > :28:55.to control our own destiny with that by that we do not give to you that
:28:56. > :28:58.which we can then be deployed here. Do you seriously think that a
:28:59. > :29:02.conservative Chancellor and Westminster would make sure that
:29:03. > :29:06.that money was redistributed back to places like Northern Ireland rather
:29:07. > :29:11.than in the Tory heartlands? Why do you assume they're always be a
:29:12. > :29:18.conservative Chancellor? That is at the moment. The point is they would
:29:19. > :29:24.be no guarantee at the moment. And there is none if you stay. The only
:29:25. > :29:30.guarantee is that if you stay the amount for agriculture declines.
:29:31. > :29:34.That is I guarantee. They are coming in looking for money, the country is
:29:35. > :29:55.coming in. They have already shown that.
:29:56. > :30:02.The Northern Irish and British market is very important to the
:30:03. > :30:11.public. Half of our beef is exported to Britain, two thirds of pegs and a
:30:12. > :30:15.third of dairy products. Agriculture is a big proportion of the economy
:30:16. > :30:27.here as well but it is much smaller in Britain.
:30:28. > :30:36.2 billion euros is going to come in under the Common Agricultural Policy
:30:37. > :30:43.programme. I have not seen anyone explain with any certainty to the
:30:44. > :30:53.Northern Irish people what would happen as they would no longer be
:30:54. > :30:56.the Common Agricultural Policy. Importing beef from other parts of
:30:57. > :31:03.the world would significantly impact on price.
:31:04. > :31:13.Why would that happen inevitably? At the moment there are tariffs on
:31:14. > :31:28.produce coming in. In Britain leaves then they won't have access to CAP
:31:29. > :31:39.which is significant financial benefit.
:31:40. > :31:47.On this one, it is not a question of me being persuaded. One of the other
:31:48. > :31:55.benefits of the CAP is that it has had the benefit of an agriculture in
:31:56. > :32:02.the third World. Subsidies have been used to guarantee farmers and income
:32:03. > :32:10.and devastated the income in third World countries. You could say, OK,
:32:11. > :32:20.it has had that unfortunate effect. Millions of people very badly off.
:32:21. > :32:30.But large farmers benefited from it. I am happy with that. I am seeing if
:32:31. > :32:34.you looked at all these things on the effect of the world then I think
:32:35. > :32:37.it is negative. Letters go back to Roberts, who
:32:38. > :32:46.asked question. Did that clarify for you that it makes be worth taking
:32:47. > :32:56.the leap into wrecks it because we would be no worse off? -- Brexit.
:32:57. > :33:06.I have already decided to leave. The problem I have with the remain
:33:07. > :33:13.campaign is that it all has revolved around reform. I have picked up no
:33:14. > :33:18.message of major reform being due. I'm getting increasingly annoyed
:33:19. > :33:20.with people coming over here and saying that anybody who wants to
:33:21. > :33:25.vote to leave is somehow giving up on their business. I have been
:33:26. > :33:29.fighting for my business for 35 years and the idea that anybody who
:33:30. > :33:36.wants to leave the somehow giving up. Though the reason I am wanting
:33:37. > :33:39.to get to so I can make decisions on my own business. At the EU doesn't
:33:40. > :33:45.do it for me, I have to do it myself.
:33:46. > :33:51.Where are you on this? State aids in European Union wring
:33:52. > :33:57.some sort of financial equilibria to each member state. The commission
:33:58. > :34:04.recognised the crisis in agriculture and the dairy industry and he waved
:34:05. > :34:10.state aids or relaxed state aids in February to allow member states to
:34:11. > :34:15.put money towards an industry in crisis. I would like to ask Gregory
:34:16. > :34:23.as a UK representative in London what has he done to progress that
:34:24. > :34:35.sense February? Could you answer that in a sentence?
:34:36. > :34:44.The issue is ongoing and has to be. There will be no reform if we vote
:34:45. > :34:50.to remain. Angela Merkel and others will see you have had your chance.
:34:51. > :35:08.I want to bring into familiar faces. You were right at the heart of that
:35:09. > :35:14.visit by John Major and Tony Blair and we have had criticism of that
:35:15. > :35:19.from some of our panellists but in terms of what we have heard so far
:35:20. > :35:26.from everybody, a very difficult issue. What do you make up what
:35:27. > :35:32.you're hearing? I think it is significant that to
:35:33. > :35:38.former Prime Minister 's who were involved in the peace process
:35:39. > :35:46.decided to come. Those advocated leaving didn't come and explain the
:35:47. > :35:57.impact on the border region. To say that it would not impact on the
:35:58. > :36:03.border region is frankly ludicrous. The EU does need reformed but he is
:36:04. > :36:10.deluded if he thinks we are in a game that we do not like so we
:36:11. > :36:21.should take a ball and go home. David Cameron went and it is
:36:22. > :36:28.negotiating a -- months ago. Do you honestly think that Europe went
:36:29. > :36:36.through all of that and if there was a remain votes and David Cameron
:36:37. > :36:46.wanted to reform further they would do it? If we vote to leave then the
:36:47. > :36:48.alarm bells go on across Europe because there is a liberation.
:36:49. > :36:54.People will see that their voice has been heard at last.
:36:55. > :37:02.I think the problem is that there is too much hyperbole and claim and
:37:03. > :37:06.counterclaim. So if we bleep we are going to be into world War three, a
:37:07. > :37:16.housing recession, the UK will be broken up. But those who are
:37:17. > :37:21.advocating to remain are seeing it as the least worst option.
:37:22. > :37:26.Is that a smirk I detect on your face?
:37:27. > :37:33.Just my natural happiness. We have to say is logging sets of figures at
:37:34. > :37:37.each other. Curiously precise yet bizarrely contradictory. I was
:37:38. > :37:45.tempted to think they are making it up but what is really missing from
:37:46. > :37:48.both sides is vision. David Cameron has nothing to offer to say here is
:37:49. > :38:02.something about the European vision. The same with the League campaign.
:38:03. > :38:10.-- league campaign. They have no idea...
:38:11. > :38:16.What make the vision be? I agree with that but I think there are
:38:17. > :38:23.reasons for it. I voted no in 1975 when the
:38:24. > :38:32.ideological lines were more clearly drawn. Whereas now it seems like a
:38:33. > :38:37.blue on blue conservative civil war. The only as a resident -- the only
:38:38. > :38:44.result of this is who will be the next Prime Minister.
:38:45. > :38:49.Is Boris Johnson going to replace David Cameron? That is not a
:38:50. > :38:53.question we have to take a position on.
:38:54. > :38:58.We may get to that question so let us park that. Let us get our next
:38:59. > :39:04.question from Michaela Lafferty, a shopworkers' union rep..
:39:05. > :39:07.When campaigners say they want to get rid of EU red-tape, do they
:39:08. > :39:14.really mean they want to get rid of workers' rights and the protections
:39:15. > :39:18.it has brought? Is that what you think it is really
:39:19. > :39:22.about? I have been listening to both sides
:39:23. > :39:37.of the Conservative administration and it would appear to me that the
:39:38. > :39:47.Leave campaign include all those industrial relations such as
:39:48. > :39:52.workers' rights. When you think of the 40 hour week, help and save a at
:39:53. > :39:57.work, a written contract, all of this has come out of the EU and the
:39:58. > :40:02.British government had to harmonise their relationship. You can no
:40:03. > :40:07.longer be sacked because you are pregnant. Maternity leave. The
:40:08. > :40:12.British government were forced to agree to this. What we have heard
:40:13. > :40:38.from the league campaign -- Leave campaign...
:40:39. > :40:51.He was furiously shaking his head. The idea that the guarantor and
:40:52. > :40:58.source of workers' rights is the EU is not true. Everything was fought
:40:59. > :41:03.for. Not by the EU. I've heard that quoted on Irish radio.
:41:04. > :41:11.Do not think the EU has helped in any way on workers' rights?
:41:12. > :41:19.The statutory holidays in the UK are higher than those laid out in the
:41:20. > :41:24.EU. But you do not have access to the
:41:25. > :41:29.European Court of Justice. We are going back, you have made
:41:30. > :41:38.that point before. I want to go back to the audience.
:41:39. > :41:46.I think it was seen in all its glory last year when workers stood up in
:41:47. > :41:54.Greece and elected a government that wanted an end to a story too. --
:41:55. > :42:08.austerity. What was the reaction from the EU, it was to crush them.
:42:09. > :42:16.Many things are scraped to the EU. It is amazing that no one has come
:42:17. > :42:20.along and said, isn't the weather great, Spain is sharing its weather
:42:21. > :42:27.with us. Somebody in the audience said this debate has been
:42:28. > :42:38.characterised by ludicrous hyperbole. You are absolutely right
:42:39. > :42:46.and it is getting worse, not better. You take a very different view from
:42:47. > :42:56.Michaela and other big unions. Your union has come out for the Leave
:42:57. > :43:04.campaign. We would sure a lot of what he is
:43:05. > :43:15.saying. We in no way support the official Leave campaign. It is a
:43:16. > :43:20.disgrace. There is another bonfire in
:43:21. > :43:26.preparation in DUP new name and it is a bonfire of public service jobs
:43:27. > :43:35.and public service is. TTIP is currently in negotiation between the
:43:36. > :43:39.EU and the US. It is a trade partnership but it effectively opens
:43:40. > :43:42.up all public services to the market, opening them up to
:43:43. > :43:46.privatisation and stripping the workforce on them. That is a huge
:43:47. > :43:54.threat to workers in Northern Ireland. These businesses rely on
:43:55. > :43:59.money coming from the public sector so private sector jobs are in
:44:00. > :44:04.trouble as well. I would like to hear what you make
:44:05. > :44:09.of what you heard from the panel and how comfortable or uncomfortable you
:44:10. > :44:12.are with Jim and odds like somebody like Patrick.
:44:13. > :44:16.I don't feel uncomfortable at all. I think we're coming at the same
:44:17. > :44:20.problem from two different points of view.
:44:21. > :44:25.And reaching two different conclusions.
:44:26. > :44:33.From listening to what Martina and Eamon has said, I understand that a
:44:34. > :44:37.man is obviously not part of the official Leave campaign, but I'm
:44:38. > :44:42.concerned but what has come out of that campaign video no referring to
:44:43. > :44:49.my employment writes as burdens to be sold. What they are trying to
:44:50. > :44:55.sell are my maternity rights, Mike paid holidays that I worked for,
:44:56. > :44:59.they are my rights. It has come out that of the tens of millions of
:45:00. > :45:01.pounds they can see from that and that concerns the Winter Cisco does
:45:02. > :45:11.a burden. On Tuesday I had an hour to spear in
:45:12. > :45:19.the House of Commons and I went to the committee on sports direct. This
:45:20. > :45:25.is after 40 years in the EU and what we heard was a litany of abuses that
:45:26. > :45:29.is going on now, within the past couple of years, so nobody lecture
:45:30. > :45:39.me about the safeguards of the EU. Go to employees of sports direct.
:45:40. > :45:47.The rights were not safeguarded. I want to bring in another member of
:45:48. > :45:52.the audience. His question is high on the agenda for a lot of people. I
:45:53. > :45:57.am not opposed to immigration but with the numbers coming in at the
:45:58. > :46:06.moment controls have to be put in place and file beastie in the
:46:07. > :46:11.European Union that is not possible. It is not possible. The Remain camp
:46:12. > :46:18.say half of the immigration from outside the EU. So you do not want
:46:19. > :46:23.to cut it by half? David Cameron gave an assurance a couple of years
:46:24. > :46:30.ago that he would reduce immigration to the tens of thousands. Most
:46:31. > :46:34.recent figures, 330,000. That is before the next nations join.
:46:35. > :46:46.Whatever people might say, whatever hyperbole, whatever about that, park
:46:47. > :46:50.that, residents and citizens of EU nation States can come and settle in
:46:51. > :46:56.any part of the EU and they are not going to change that. There is going
:46:57. > :46:59.to be more. Turkey is in the queue. David Cameron says they will not
:47:00. > :47:12.come in. We get the footage of him last year. The UK has been to. Yes
:47:13. > :47:17.but will he use it? Nations are coming in. They have joined the EU
:47:18. > :47:23.over 40 years. Why does anybody think that is going to stop. There's
:47:24. > :47:29.immigration always wrong? Not always as long as each national state can
:47:30. > :47:36.decide its borders, who will come, who will go, what the that are
:47:37. > :47:39.manageable stop what about the concept of guaranteeing the Common
:47:40. > :47:45.travel area between the Republic of Ireland and the UK? People are not
:47:46. > :47:50.clear about the consequences if that is able to leave. I am concerned by
:47:51. > :47:56.it. I live right beside the border and the implications, it is
:47:57. > :48:01.important to have control of your own border, and that is a key aspect
:48:02. > :48:05.of what the Leave campaign is pushing. Back to the start of the
:48:06. > :48:09.campaign the justice minister and the former Chancellor of the
:48:10. > :48:14.Exchequer, off outlined that there would be Border Controls if there
:48:15. > :48:19.was a Brexit. Subsequently, and particularly in Northern Ireland,
:48:20. > :48:23.when it became clear that the concern was being raised, the
:48:24. > :48:27.Secretary of State has tried to indicate that would not be the case
:48:28. > :48:32.but there is a total lack of clarity in relation to what is being
:48:33. > :48:38.proposed. It is one that would concern myself. Maybe Gregory might
:48:39. > :48:44.elaborate. People I am talking to are asking about this. There is a
:48:45. > :48:47.lot of confusion. I will talk about Border Controls specifically in a
:48:48. > :48:53.moment but I want to talk a bit immigration at the moment. Eamon
:48:54. > :48:56.McCann, immigration, limits on immigration, that is what Richard
:48:57. > :49:01.has concerns about and that is an issue for a lot of people. A lot of
:49:02. > :49:05.people have expressed that view throughout the campaign and maybe an
:49:06. > :49:09.issue for a lot of people watching at home. What should people be
:49:10. > :49:17.considering? It is an issue for a lot of people. It comes up as soon
:49:18. > :49:20.as you talk about the EU. I think we should be open borders. I am in
:49:21. > :49:24.favour of human beings and able to move where they want to. This has
:49:25. > :49:30.happened since 10,000 years ago since the dawn of human history.
:49:31. > :49:38.Human beings have moved. But you support Brexit? How our public
:49:39. > :49:45.services going to cope? If you had your way the entire world would come
:49:46. > :49:52.here. If you mean Europe or Northern Ireland, that we are so wonderful
:49:53. > :49:58.that the entire world would want to come? The whole of Europe does not
:49:59. > :50:07.want to come. They can if they want to. You can go in the other
:50:08. > :50:25.direction if you want. That does not happen. That does happen. The
:50:26. > :50:34.immigration issue is best seen, people from this city helping to run
:50:35. > :50:54.refuge stations in the islands of the lease. There are present camps
:50:55. > :50:56.there. People who are only there and incidentally the art fleeing from
:50:57. > :51:09.areas that the West has rampaged through. He has sparked off the wave
:51:10. > :51:20.of immigration. I am talking about within the European union. Let us
:51:21. > :51:28.park that. I want to bring in Sinead McLaughlin who is from the chamber
:51:29. > :51:36.of, is. You have a supplementary question. In the north-west our
:51:37. > :51:41.biggest trading partner is the Republic of Ireland. 38% of our
:51:42. > :51:49.exports are exported to our nearest neighbour. What impact would there
:51:50. > :51:55.be if Border Controls were put in place? Can I also say regarding
:51:56. > :52:00.immigration? We in this city benefit from and against coming to work in
:52:01. > :52:05.our places of employment. We have a net benefit in this city. Our
:52:06. > :52:10.businesses are in the heart of Europe trying to attract people
:52:11. > :52:14.here. What is your message to Richard who asked the previous
:52:15. > :52:17.question who has a concern about unlimited immigration and to say
:52:18. > :52:23.that everybody could come and live in the UK if there was not a limit
:52:24. > :52:28.put in place? Your response is? My response is that we need skilled
:52:29. > :52:32.people in Northern Ireland to work in our factories and workplaces and
:52:33. > :52:37.businesses, and sometimes we have to look beyond our own borders in order
:52:38. > :52:40.to get them. It is a reciprocal conversation. That freedom works
:52:41. > :52:46.both ways and it is a benefit to this region. Respond to the question
:52:47. > :52:53.about cross-border trade and the possible tee off tougher Border
:52:54. > :52:56.Controls in the case of Brexit. What we are dealing with is the
:52:57. > :53:04.humanitarian issue, not immigration issue. Richard, when you consider
:53:05. > :53:08.that a quarter of the people that we have working in the health service
:53:09. > :53:13.we would not have if it was not for those people who are coming in with
:53:14. > :53:17.those skills from Europe, but that said, and let us not forget the 1
:53:18. > :53:24.million British people who are in Spain and elsewhere. Cross-border
:53:25. > :53:31.trade? Without doubt you cannot have an island that has got an EU
:53:32. > :53:37.membership and part of it having a non-EU membership without there
:53:38. > :53:43.being trade and tariffs. An EU border stuck right in the heart of
:53:44. > :53:50.Ireland would be devastating for trade, for tourism, for industry,
:53:51. > :53:54.and what I want to see in developing the all Ireland economy is that that
:53:55. > :54:02.would be driven further. I do not want to be shackled to put in. I
:54:03. > :54:06.want to remain in Ireland. Do you share those concerns? No. That is
:54:07. > :54:14.rich talking about humanitarian issues given her background. Let us
:54:15. > :54:22.look at that. Remain never tops about Common travel area which
:54:23. > :54:32.allows for that. To read, if there was a Leave vault hummer the people
:54:33. > :54:38.of the Irish Republic and the Government of the Irish Republic
:54:39. > :54:41.would not want to see any checkpoints to restrict trade.
:54:42. > :54:45.Neither would the people or the Government of Northern Ireland so
:54:46. > :54:48.why would they happen? If people in the public do not want them and
:54:49. > :54:52.people in Northern Ireland do not want them why is it only the Remain
:54:53. > :55:02.camp that insist they will call to be here? You want to respond to what
:55:03. > :55:06.Gregory said. When Gregory runs out of an argument he wants to go back
:55:07. > :55:11.to the past, but not the causes of the conflict. It does not want to go
:55:12. > :55:15.back to why they ended up in a conflict in the first place and the
:55:16. > :55:20.role that people like him and his constituency played. Let us not
:55:21. > :55:24.forget that here we are to the with the families that I took to Europe
:55:25. > :55:36.being able to have a judgment that shows there was collusion. Bloody
:55:37. > :55:41.Sunday. I am responding to your remark about your managerialism. Let
:55:42. > :55:47.us leave it at that. A quick response to the issue specifically
:55:48. > :55:55.raised about Border Controls and what impact that might have two
:55:56. > :56:00.cross-border trade. During the last 43 years there has been a tremendous
:56:01. > :56:07.trading relationship across the borders. The Republic of Ireland
:56:08. > :56:11.want it, Britain wanted, Northern Ireland want, they will continue to
:56:12. > :56:17.be that relationship. What you are not recognising, Gregory, is that
:56:18. > :56:21.the public, should Britain and Northern Ireland leave, the Republic
:56:22. > :56:31.would be one of 27 other members and we would not be negotiating. It
:56:32. > :56:35.would be the 27 members. It would be the 27 members of the European Union
:56:36. > :56:40.would negotiate with Britain and Northern Ireland in terms of what
:56:41. > :56:44.tariffs might replace it. I want to get one more question in very
:56:45. > :56:56.quickly but before I do that I want to get a comment from what tougher
:56:57. > :57:03.Border Controls would mean for your business? The effect of border on
:57:04. > :57:08.tourism and Northern Ireland in the north-west, and I hear all the
:57:09. > :57:11.argument is, but the thought of any sort of border, the effect that
:57:12. > :57:15.would have on to list in the north-west would be devastating.
:57:16. > :57:19.Tourism is creating more jobs at a faster rate than any other sector in
:57:20. > :57:25.Northern Ireland and the border would cut that off. I do not see how
:57:26. > :57:30.you could want that in this part of the world. Only two miles away from
:57:31. > :57:36.where we sit. Thank you. A very quick question and a very quick
:57:37. > :57:41.answer. From the principle of the college year. No matter the outcome
:57:42. > :57:47.of the referendum can the panel see Boris Johnston in number ten by
:57:48. > :57:57.Christmas? Nightmares sometimes come true. I do not think it is going to
:57:58. > :58:02.happen. I am sorry that we did not get to talking about human rights in
:58:03. > :58:06.relation to immigration within the EU. Not your fault. There is a lot
:58:07. > :58:13.of aspects that that is what I am passionate over in relation to the
:58:14. > :58:16.EU and we did not get to it. I concur with Eamon McCann as somebody
:58:17. > :58:25.that has been working very hard on the issue. It is irrelevant.
:58:26. > :58:30.Whatever happens after this what we need on the table as RFL in them on
:58:31. > :58:35.border control. We need to engage in a conversation about Irish unity,
:58:36. > :58:43.that is the direction of travel regardless of the outcome. I do not
:58:44. > :58:48.think he will be a successor for David Cameron. It is unfortunate the
:58:49. > :58:52.way the internal party politics and ambition has played a big role in
:58:53. > :58:54.terms of Boris Johnsonpos-macro in this campaign and attracting the
:58:55. > :59:01.attention of the media during the campaign. We should not allow the
:59:02. > :59:05.issue of George Osborne, Boris Johnston or somebody else being the
:59:06. > :59:08.next leader of the Conservative Party to colour the judgment on this
:59:09. > :59:14.fundamental issue. For generations to come to the next Prime Minister
:59:15. > :59:25.as may or may not happen. But you are a fan of Boris Johnson? You are
:59:26. > :59:29.on the same side of the campaign customer as Eamon McCann? Are you
:59:30. > :59:35.suggesting I would support Eamon McCann? I am not particularly a fan
:59:36. > :59:40.of Boris Johnson that he is in the right in regards to this. Whether he
:59:41. > :59:44.is the next Prime Minister is a different issue. You could say you
:59:45. > :59:45.are not a fan of Eamon McCann. You are there as well.
:59:46. > :59:47.Well, that's all we have time for tonight -
:59:48. > :59:50.so we say goodnight from Derry and our referendum special.
:59:51. > :59:52.Thanks to our panel, our audience and, of course, to everyone
:59:53. > :59:59.here at St Cecilia's College for being so welcoming.
:00:00. > :00:02.Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.50 here on BBC One.
:00:03. > :00:30.For now, though, from everyone here, bye bye.
:00:31. > :00:35.We are the north, the south, the east and the west.
:00:36. > :00:38.The fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers.