:00:00. > :00:00.Ignored by some, valued by others, but is it time
:00:00. > :00:00.for the Orange Order to scrap its rule on Catholic
:00:07. > :00:12.Plus, head to head, a Tory peer and a Sinn Fein MLA debate Brexit,
:00:13. > :00:39.Tonight - the Orange Order should consider lifting its ban on members
:00:40. > :00:41.attending services in Catholic churches, according to two senior
:00:42. > :00:47.I'll be talking to three people who've played significant roles
:00:48. > :00:51.in the Loyal Orders and asking them if the time
:00:52. > :00:55.Also tonight, dominated by Brexit, but after the Tory conference
:00:56. > :00:58.are we any the wiser about the future
:00:59. > :01:02.I'll be asking the Conservative peer, David Trimble,
:01:03. > :01:05.and Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd for their visions.
:01:06. > :01:07.Plus - the artwork owned by all of us, but hidden
:01:08. > :01:15.Now an Executive Minister plans to change all that.
:01:16. > :01:22.What I want to do with that treasure is liberated and let people see and
:01:23. > :01:23.enjoy the art collection which of course they paid for over many
:01:24. > :01:24.years. And we've a couple of works of art
:01:25. > :01:27.in Commentators' Corner tonight in Deirdre Heenan and Newton
:01:28. > :01:31.Emerson. The Orange Order's ban on members
:01:32. > :01:33.entering Catholic churches has had an impact on a string of politicians
:01:34. > :01:36.here through the years. Back in 1998, David Trimble,
:01:37. > :01:41.who we're talking to on other matters later, faced disciplinary
:01:42. > :01:43.action for attending the funeral of three young victims
:01:44. > :01:46.of the Omagh bombing. And he's not the only public figure
:01:47. > :01:51.to have faced censure on the issue. But comments on Talkback yesterday
:01:52. > :01:54.by the Order's Assistant Grand Master, Mervyn Gibson, have reopened
:01:55. > :01:57.the debate about change. With me now are the Ulster Unionist
:01:58. > :02:01.MLA and Orange Order Also here is Billy Logan, who's
:02:02. > :02:05.a former Sovereign Grand Master of the Royal Black Institution,
:02:06. > :02:07.and the Reverend Brian Kennaway, who's a former
:02:08. > :02:16.Orange Order chaplain. You are all very welcome to the
:02:17. > :02:21.programme. Thank you for joining us tonight. Danny Kennedy, you fell
:02:22. > :02:25.foul of this rule five years ago when you attended the funeral of
:02:26. > :02:31.Constable Ronan Kerr. Is it do you think a throwback to a previous age?
:02:32. > :02:37.I think there are some in the Orange institution who take tradition
:02:38. > :02:42.review and they are retitled as entitled to. -- traditional view.
:02:43. > :02:46.This is a matter for the Orange institution to debate and take a
:02:47. > :02:54.decision on. I am not sure that a fully fledged public debate will
:02:55. > :03:00.speed that up. I think rightly the Orange institution will take its
:03:01. > :03:03.time and arrive at what I hope will be a sensible decision. So you'd
:03:04. > :03:11.think the public debate is a good thing? -- so you don't think?
:03:12. > :03:15.Ultimately it is a matter for the Grand Lodge of the institution.
:03:16. > :03:19.David McNarry said clearly on the news that Mervyn Gibson's comments
:03:20. > :03:25.actually opens up a very helpful public debate. We are having that
:03:26. > :03:29.but ultimately the decision rests with the institutions. Should the
:03:30. > :03:37.Orange Order actively consider dropping this ruling? I.e., in the
:03:38. > :03:43.past, have attended funeral services in Roman Catholic churches, both of
:03:44. > :03:48.Roman -- Ronan Kerr and Stephen care, who were police officers. Also
:03:49. > :03:55.work colleagues and people who were neighbours and friends and it was
:03:56. > :04:03.done out of respect to hopefully give some comfort to families in
:04:04. > :04:11.grief. I think largely in rural areas there is more tendency for
:04:12. > :04:18.people to overlook the role, not blatantly overlook it, but simply on
:04:19. > :04:21.eight pragmatic basis, expressed sympathy to friends and neighbours.
:04:22. > :04:28.And you have no regrets whatsoever about doing what you did? I think
:04:29. > :04:32.entirely the right circumstances, particularly the murdered police
:04:33. > :04:35.officers, murdered by republican terrorists and I think it was the
:04:36. > :04:41.right thing to do. I also attended, out of interest, the funeral of a
:04:42. > :04:45.political colleague John fee from the SDLP who was a very fine
:04:46. > :04:48.representative who opposed to violence, particularly republican
:04:49. > :04:53.violence, and who had suffered at the hands and received a very bad
:04:54. > :04:57.beating and ultimately sadly passed away and I thought it was the right
:04:58. > :05:01.thing to do two shop sympathy. Billy Logan, do you think the time has
:05:02. > :05:06.come to change the real? I think there is a conflict there. We
:05:07. > :05:11.repeatedly say, civil and religious liberty for all, yet we keep this
:05:12. > :05:17.rule that prevents member of the Orange Order from attending any form
:05:18. > :05:24.of Catholic worship. It is a bit of confusion. As far as I am personally
:05:25. > :05:30.concerned, I went to a service in Londonderry and the context of that
:05:31. > :05:37.was I was in the insurance business for 32 years. On several occasions I
:05:38. > :05:41.was in Derry City and I was in Rosemount just off the Strand road.
:05:42. > :05:49.A gentleman decided he was going to take my car and he put a gun in my
:05:50. > :05:54.back. The gentleman I was working with who lived in the Reagan, said
:05:55. > :05:59.we're going to get car. All I want is the bus to Belfast. He says, no,
:06:00. > :06:05.you have to get your car. He and his brother and father, and I finished
:06:06. > :06:08.up on Provo headquarters for three hours. Discussing with these fellows
:06:09. > :06:13.whether I should get my car back or not. I eventually got my car back
:06:14. > :06:19.through the good offices of this gentleman, his brother and his
:06:20. > :06:23.father. Subsequently he died in number of years later and my wife
:06:24. > :06:26.and I went up to the funeral. Who is going to criticise me for doing
:06:27. > :06:30.that? Were you criticised for doing that? Not really because it was a
:06:31. > :06:35.private matter. I did this in a private capacity. But you were of
:06:36. > :06:44.course and store are an Orangeman and you were a very senior figure
:06:45. > :06:49.since 1938. Also a... You know you worse technically breaking the
:06:50. > :06:56.rules. I never gave it a second thought. So, it be changed? Would it
:06:57. > :07:02.be helpful? That is a matter for the Grand Lodge. Would you support it
:07:03. > :07:06.being changed? Yes, but I have never had the privilege of sitting at
:07:07. > :07:09.Grand Lodge. I have never aspire to that. The other organisation to
:07:10. > :07:14.which I belong, yes, I have a great love for that as well. My membership
:07:15. > :07:19.of the Orange Order is there and will be there till they carry me
:07:20. > :07:22.out. Brian Kennaway, do you think the time has come for change,
:07:23. > :07:26.because it is of course the case that all members of the Order know
:07:27. > :07:29.that the rule is there and they still go ahead and sign on the
:07:30. > :07:36.dotted line. The rule is confusing, can I say? The question is whether
:07:37. > :07:40.or not you are actually condoning Catholic worship by your presence.
:07:41. > :07:44.Tell us what you think is confusing. What is confusing is, are you
:07:45. > :07:47.actually condoning it by your presence? Because you are asked not
:07:48. > :07:52.to give any countenance by your presence. Are you giving
:07:53. > :07:57.countenance? According to a QC's ruling in the 60s, you are not. More
:07:58. > :08:01.recently in Grand Lodge, the present grand Secretary in relation to
:08:02. > :08:07.another matter, he made it quite clear and is quoted in the report
:08:08. > :08:11.book, when he said, he clarified that new attendance at a meeting
:08:12. > :08:18.would not necessarily be judged as participation. When we asked for a
:08:19. > :08:21.representative of the Orange Order to join us tonight we were told
:08:22. > :08:25.nobody is available. We were told it was an internal matter for the
:08:26. > :08:29.institution. It is from a different era. The point is the vast majority
:08:30. > :08:32.of people interpret as he shouldn't enter a Catholic Church or attend a
:08:33. > :08:36.Catholic service. That is where the confusion comes in. Changing it
:08:37. > :08:42.arguably would clarify a concert for all. Is that your review? It is but
:08:43. > :08:47.it is a product of its time. The product of course, we saw in the
:08:48. > :08:50.past when the president of Ireland died, government ministers couldn't
:08:51. > :08:53.attend his funeral because the Catholic Church said you can't
:08:54. > :08:58.attend product and service of worship. They had to sit outside the
:08:59. > :09:07.church. -- Protestant service of worship. If the Catholic church and
:09:08. > :09:10.the GAA have changed their rules, logically the time has passed for
:09:11. > :09:18.the Orange Order. I don't think a public debate will help it. Do you
:09:19. > :09:25.think it would make it more difficult? Is there a groundswell of
:09:26. > :09:30.opinion for change or not? Rank and file, yes, but Grand Lodge is a
:09:31. > :09:34.different body. Is that how you see it, Danny Kennedy? Do you think
:09:35. > :09:38.public discussion may in fact knock on the head in the short-term chance
:09:39. > :09:45.of change? For those who want to see change? I think it will not be
:09:46. > :09:52.changed at the behest of the BBC. I don't think the BBC is asking for
:09:53. > :09:56.it. I am not suggesting that. It was started by Mervyn Gibson, not the
:09:57. > :10:00.media. The Orange Order will take its own time and it will come
:10:01. > :10:05.through the grassroots and eventually land at a Grand Lodge and
:10:06. > :10:10.those are the processes by which any change will come. But if a public
:10:11. > :10:14.debate indicates to members of Grand Lodge that there is a view amongst
:10:15. > :10:18.members and the public that a change would be helpful, then perhaps that
:10:19. > :10:23.might contribute to an earlier change of the rule. I think the
:10:24. > :10:29.important debate is within the Orange Order itself. Brian, you say
:10:30. > :10:34.the opposite. Absolutely. So by appearing on the programme tonight
:10:35. > :10:39.asking for change, you are diminishing the chance of change.
:10:40. > :10:50.Yes. It is that contrary an organisation? Yes. Read the book.
:10:51. > :10:54.Let's be honest, a survey was taken, Orange mention the Parades
:10:55. > :10:58.Commission. Overwhelmingly the result was yes but that was ignored
:10:59. > :11:01.because Grand Lodge officers didn't like it. What about the individuals
:11:02. > :11:08.who feel very strongly that the rule should remain in place and should be
:11:09. > :11:11.properly implemented? That was raised at a time when Stephen
:11:12. > :11:17.Dickenson and others were involved in an organisation and the Orange
:11:18. > :11:22.Reformation and that was the thrust of it. That is a view, I don't know
:11:23. > :11:30.how widely held you think that view is, Danny. I think there is still a
:11:31. > :11:35.strong body of opinion in the Orange community who hold that view, but I
:11:36. > :11:41.think in practical terms, in rural areas, the rule is very often
:11:42. > :11:46.ignored or overlooked. Billy Logan, you have been in the Orange Order
:11:47. > :11:49.for a long time. He said that yourself it is not that you haven't
:11:50. > :11:51.seen in the decade they have been involved. What would you say to
:11:52. > :11:53.individuals watching the programme type who think the rules should
:11:54. > :12:03.remain in place and ought to be sacrosanct? What is your message to
:12:04. > :12:08.them? Could be more open-minded about these matters. It is a matter
:12:09. > :12:12.entirely for Grand Lodge. I as an individual will not change it.
:12:13. > :12:15.Senior officers of the institution of take the decision whatever it
:12:16. > :12:20.might be. But the members will do their own thing anyway. They always
:12:21. > :12:26.have. It is a very interesting solution to what is quite a testy
:12:27. > :12:29.problem. Thank you all very much for coming to join us. We will watch
:12:30. > :12:32.developments with interest. After months of speculation,
:12:33. > :12:36.Brexit does indeed appear to mean Any thoughts that Theresa May
:12:37. > :12:39.wouldn't trigger Article 50 were swiftly dispelled,
:12:40. > :12:41.raising the prospect of the UK leaving both the single market
:12:42. > :12:47.and the customs union. If we leave and as a land border
:12:48. > :12:49.within the European Union, that brings the change to the
:12:50. > :12:57.relationship across the border, but what I am very clear about, what is
:12:58. > :13:00.clear... You said it would be inconceivable, but wouldn't it be
:13:01. > :13:03.some kind of change, obviously. Of course there will be a land border
:13:04. > :13:08.with a country that is in the European Union, but what I think all
:13:09. > :13:12.parties are very clear about is the intent and will to ensure that we
:13:13. > :13:16.have an arrangement that isn't a return to the borders of the past.
:13:17. > :13:21.Of course the issue around how we're going to make the border work in a
:13:22. > :13:27.way that is good both sides in terms of trade, services and she is very
:13:28. > :13:30.engaged in that issue I am glad to say. What the Tories are doing is
:13:31. > :13:34.all about themselves. They don't give tuppence for the island of
:13:35. > :13:38.Ireland, north or south, they don't give problems with the people of
:13:39. > :13:42.Scotland. No one wants to see a return to the borders of the past. I
:13:43. > :13:47.just think we have gotten beverage and in where we are going. We don't
:13:48. > :13:52.know what we are arguing over or how we fighting for, how you will keep
:13:53. > :14:01.industry and business and everything working, because it's the economy
:14:02. > :14:09.that is keeping Ireland going. That was Stephen Walker asking questions
:14:10. > :14:13.at the Tory party conference. Lord Trimble, did you welcome the message
:14:14. > :14:17.from Theresa May that Brexit is happening and article 50 will be
:14:18. > :14:22.triggered by the end of next March? It should be done even sooner. When
:14:23. > :14:26.you look at this, in terms of the issues, there is one big issue.
:14:27. > :14:31.Another of small issues but one big issue and the big issue is tariffs.
:14:32. > :14:36.Will there be tariffs? And that is an issue which should be resolved as
:14:37. > :14:40.quickly as possible. I hope very much that the government is going to
:14:41. > :14:46.move on this quickly and what I hope they do is they tell Brussels that
:14:47. > :14:51.we are not in favour of tariffs, we prefer free trade. In other words no
:14:52. > :14:54.talent at all as it is our view that we will not have tariffs but if
:14:55. > :15:00.Brussels wants to impose tariffs on as after we leave then they opened
:15:01. > :15:05.the door to retaliation where they are more vulnerable than others and
:15:06. > :15:10.so I hope that we do this and we do it quickly and we do it before the
:15:11. > :15:13.German, French and Dutch elections next year so that the elected there
:15:14. > :15:18.and see the damage that buses would be doing to them if they oppose
:15:19. > :15:23.tariffs -- imposed tariffs. So you call the bluff is what you're
:15:24. > :15:27.seeing? I think it is bluff and we should do that. There are only two
:15:28. > :15:32.bodies that matter in this, the United Kingdom government and the
:15:33. > :15:36.Brussels commission. At the moment, it is simple as that, but at the
:15:37. > :15:39.moment the commission is sitting in its corner refusing to speak to
:15:40. > :15:44.people and that is causing the problem and that is where those who
:15:45. > :15:48.are concerned should take the to get Brussels to get himself sorted out
:15:49. > :15:54.and face up to the issues and we can deal with them. Brussels do not want
:15:55. > :15:59.to negotiate until article 50 is triggered. Jonathan do you accept it
:16:00. > :16:04.is as simple as Lord Trimble suggests? It is not Brussels taking
:16:05. > :16:07.the people of the north out of the EU against their will, it is the
:16:08. > :16:12.British government. Throughout the Tory party conference the theme ran
:16:13. > :16:16.that those arguing for hard Brexit have won the argument and we are
:16:17. > :16:21.hailing to a position where we will have not only leaving the EU but we
:16:22. > :16:27.will also leave the EU customs zone which means that there will be
:16:28. > :16:31.tariffs. We are not clear for sure, some people interpreted that way. We
:16:32. > :16:36.do not know. I think it was very clear from the comment any, the
:16:37. > :16:41.direction of travel the taking. There were other police amid
:16:42. > :16:44.speeches which seems to suggest a different situation. That is part of
:16:45. > :16:51.the confusion. If we follow the theory that Britain moves forward
:16:52. > :16:55.with no tariffs and we have a free-trade zone they are actually
:16:56. > :16:57.leaving a free-trade zone, the leaving the EU which was a trade
:16:58. > :17:01.zone they were involved in and did not want to be involved in and now
:17:02. > :17:03.they are leaving it so it isn't arguing against leaving the EU
:17:04. > :17:07.rather than having an argument to present it is to Brussels saying we
:17:08. > :17:11.have come up with a marvellous idea, let's have a free-trade zone.
:17:12. > :17:15.Brussels will look back and say we actually have one of those and
:17:16. > :17:22.you've ordered to leave. I will not correct all of the mistakes you
:17:23. > :17:30.made. We have a preference for free trade generally, and that is quite
:17:31. > :17:34.historic within the British state and for centuries we have favoured,
:17:35. > :17:40.ever since the repeal of the common was, and in fact the European
:17:41. > :17:44.Union's agricultural policy was a reproduction of the corn laws and it
:17:45. > :17:49.was a bad idea so we want about the traditions of free trade. Your
:17:50. > :17:54.opponents are suggest you try to have your cake and eat it, you want
:17:55. > :17:56.the best bits of leaving the EU and what is associated and keep the
:17:57. > :18:01.other bits that would be to your advantage even though you have left.
:18:02. > :18:05.You can't have it both ways. That is not the case. What we should do is
:18:06. > :18:09.say that we are in favour of the trade, we are not intending to
:18:10. > :18:13.impose any traffic -- tariffs on your goods coming to us. The
:18:14. > :18:16.question is what they do with our goods coming to them and if you want
:18:17. > :18:21.to impose tariffs on as then that might have consequences. And that is
:18:22. > :18:25.not having your cake and eating it, that is doing the sensible thing.
:18:26. > :18:28.Then everyone arguably leave the EU because it would be no advantage to
:18:29. > :18:36.being out and the huge advantage to being out. In terms of trade, the
:18:37. > :18:39.single market was a failure follows. Other people if they want to join
:18:40. > :18:42.the EU are entitled to do so, other people within the EU wide wish to
:18:43. > :18:48.follow our example and indeed I would suggest that to our friends in
:18:49. > :18:54.Dublin as well. John O'Dowd what are the arguments, and many have been
:18:55. > :18:57.put by yourself in the SDLP and parties on both sides of the border,
:18:58. > :19:03.focusing on the idea that messing about in any way with this UK's
:19:04. > :19:08.membership of the EU plays with the peace process here. I will come to
:19:09. > :19:11.lodge Campbell in a second and he suggested it is nothing short of
:19:12. > :19:17.scaremongering but why do you believe that this is an issue? The
:19:18. > :19:20.peace process is build a political agreement, particularly the Good
:19:21. > :19:24.Friday agreement and in the Good Friday agreement, stated in it is EU
:19:25. > :19:29.membership. And indeed the membership of Dublin, Belfast and
:19:30. > :19:35.London in those negotiations facilitated the agreement which our
:19:36. > :19:41.peace process was built on top of. It is not scaremongering or sabre
:19:42. > :19:46.rattling, any unilateral redrawing of a peace agreement never ends
:19:47. > :19:50.well. Who are not suggesting that peace will come to an end and wobble
:19:51. > :19:55.break-out? Then -- that is not what I'm saying. I do not want to sabre
:19:56. > :20:00.rattle. I am being careful with my language. The price of freedom is
:20:01. > :20:03.eternal vigilance. The price of peace is eternal vigilance and you
:20:04. > :20:10.should not go about unilaterally rewriting peace agreements. John, go
:20:11. > :20:14.and read the entire agreement. You will find the very few references to
:20:15. > :20:18.the European Union and they are peripheral. They make a significant
:20:19. > :20:25.contribution to the development of it and they are there. Other parties
:20:26. > :20:31.to that who are involved in the process are not in the European
:20:32. > :20:36.Union. We cannot say that the EU has been peripheral to the peace
:20:37. > :20:39.process. The invested over ?2 billion of funding into the peace
:20:40. > :20:45.process on both sides of the border, they helped stabilise and build the
:20:46. > :20:49.peace process. It was membership of the European Union that removed the
:20:50. > :20:57.hard border on the island of Ireland. That is the process that
:20:58. > :21:01.was involved because once we entered the European custom zones that held
:21:02. > :21:06.removed the hard border. You know more about the Good Friday agreement
:21:07. > :21:13.than off a lot of people because you're one of the offers of it, and
:21:14. > :21:16.there is undoubtedly an issue of constructive and the duty and the
:21:17. > :21:20.people who were not happy with the notion of Northern Ireland in the
:21:21. > :21:23.United Kingdom but could sign up to the Good Friday agreement because
:21:24. > :21:28.they could say we have equal status with everybody else because we are
:21:29. > :21:31.members of the European Union, first and foremost we see our identity in
:21:32. > :21:36.a European context. If you take that away they are not happy. A number of
:21:37. > :21:41.the things that you're referring to the nothing to do with the
:21:42. > :21:44.agreement. The Common travel area is a product of British legislation in
:21:45. > :21:54.the 1920s, it was there before the European Union took existence. That
:21:55. > :21:59.is a red herring. The 1998 agreement supersedes that. I do not agree that
:22:00. > :22:03.the common travel any argument is a red herring, it was done up in both
:22:04. > :22:08.states when they were outside the EU and would both state entered the EU
:22:09. > :22:10.on the same day they were able to balance the Common travel area
:22:11. > :22:15.because there were both members of the EU and any development since
:22:16. > :22:18.that day and developments of Europe -- European policies have been
:22:19. > :22:24.managed because they're both members of the EU. One state is now calling
:22:25. > :22:28.or leaving the EU, that changes the relationship under the Common travel
:22:29. > :22:32.area. To what extent and degree, we will see going to the future, but it
:22:33. > :22:40.is the movement of goods and services which is going to result in
:22:41. > :22:45.a hard border. David EU except that the efforts of those are opposed to
:22:46. > :22:49.Brexit could steal the process? We have two court cases in the High
:22:50. > :22:55.Court in Northern Ireland at the moment. We have Theresa May saying
:22:56. > :23:00.that nationalists will not derail the process, but it is obvious when
:23:01. > :23:04.you listen to people like Sinn Fein and the SDLP and other prodigal
:23:05. > :23:09.parties, the Greens and Alliance, they are not going to stop just
:23:10. > :23:13.because you say this is going ahead. It is not me who said this, it is
:23:14. > :23:18.not a reason they are the Conservative government, there was a
:23:19. > :23:24.referendum and a very significant majority voted for leaving. And that
:23:25. > :23:30.was a referendum in the whole of the United Kingdom where you and I could
:23:31. > :23:33.take part. We had exactly the same vote in the referendum, it has
:23:34. > :23:39.produced a result and we are now under a duty to give effect to that
:23:40. > :23:47.referendum. So no special circumstance for Northern Ireland?
:23:48. > :23:55.John, how do you respond to that? We took part on the basis that we --
:23:56. > :24:02.that it was an imposed policy. The referendum was imposed on the
:24:03. > :24:07.people. But you took part. Yes we defended ourselves. We won the
:24:08. > :24:12.argument among electors here. You lost the argument across the UK. The
:24:13. > :24:15.idea but the United view in the United Kingdom on the EU referendum
:24:16. > :24:20.is mistaken. We are dealing with Scotland voted to stay, we voted to
:24:21. > :24:23.stay, outside the United Kingdom Gibraltar voted to stay and on the
:24:24. > :24:26.part of what is known as the United Kingdom that forced to leave was
:24:27. > :24:29.England and Wales, and if they wish to leave the EU then so be it. But
:24:30. > :24:35.they cannot ignore the democratic will of the people. It was a United
:24:36. > :24:40.Kingdom decision, a United Kingdom vote and interestingly most of the
:24:41. > :24:45.people who lost except that and recognise that it is the duty to
:24:46. > :24:49.implement the views of the majority and it is quite interesting if you
:24:50. > :24:53.look at recent opinion poll evidence that two thirds of those who voted
:24:54. > :24:58.to remain now want to say as just sticking to others in preventing the
:24:59. > :25:04.agreement and not fighting the issue over and over. David Trimble,
:25:05. > :25:07.briefly that, the difficulty some people say is that the part of the
:25:08. > :25:11.UK that is likely to be most affected by Brexit because it has a
:25:12. > :25:15.land border with another EU state is the most peripheral to this debate
:25:16. > :25:21.and that is Northern Ireland. That first premise about the one most
:25:22. > :25:24.effective, no, that is not... You do not believe that? The impact on
:25:25. > :25:29.Northern Ireland will be minimal. Based on what evidence? We are only
:25:30. > :25:36.2% of the UK population, we are quite small. You may not have
:25:37. > :25:41.noticed. There will be a much bigger impact elsewhere. Back to your
:25:42. > :25:45.argument... We will be most affected. We are already lagging
:25:46. > :25:50.behind the rest of these islands in terms of an economy because we are a
:25:51. > :25:55.very small economy, we relied heavily on... You lagging behind
:25:56. > :26:00.because you have an administration not tackling the problems here. You
:26:01. > :26:05.still have the public sector that is far too big and it is damaging the
:26:06. > :26:08.private sector here and consequently... Equipped centres in
:26:09. > :26:13.and then we need to bring this to a close. 80% of the earnings of
:26:14. > :26:17.agricultural community, from the EU. That is a major impact on its own.
:26:18. > :26:21.David Campbell I can't let you go you about the story that we began
:26:22. > :26:26.the programme with the night, Mervyn Gibson's suggestion that the tiny
:26:27. > :26:29.have come for the Orange order to drop the rule forbidding members to
:26:30. > :26:34.attend catholic church services. Do you think that I must come? As I
:26:35. > :26:38.said it is a matter for the order and the grand Lodge and I'm leaving
:26:39. > :26:40.it to them. You know what my own position has been, that in
:26:41. > :26:45.circumstances where I considered it my civic duty to do that then I did
:26:46. > :26:49.it, and I also did it because and in those circumstances it was the
:26:50. > :26:52.decent thing to do. And you have no regret? Bloody great and no
:26:53. > :26:53.comeback. Thank you both. The Sinn Fein Minister who wants
:26:54. > :26:56.to 'liberate' a government art collection begun by a unionist
:26:57. > :26:58.Prime Minister believes some Mairtin O'Muilleoir says some
:26:59. > :27:02.of the paintings may have been removed 'by accident', as he put it,
:27:03. > :27:04.from government offices The Minister wants people to be able
:27:05. > :27:08.to see the collection, most of which has been
:27:09. > :27:11.under wraps for decades, in buildings like hospitals and job
:27:12. > :27:13.centres, and he's given our Political Correspondent,
:27:14. > :27:39.Gareth Gordon, an exclusive Picture this. A massive art
:27:40. > :27:45.collection of nearly 1400 pieces owned by you, the public, which
:27:46. > :27:48.hasn't been seen by anyone for years apart from civil servants and the
:27:49. > :27:55.odd government minister. That is what lies behind the store.
:27:56. > :28:02.And this is it, a brother -- or other part of it. Hidden from public
:28:03. > :28:11.view in stables behind Stormont Castle. Not for much longer. There
:28:12. > :28:15.is no better time for some straight thinking. The collection was begun
:28:16. > :28:20.in the early 60s by the Ulster Unionist Prime Minister Terence
:28:21. > :28:25.O'Neill. The man who intends to rescue it is a Sinn Fein minister.
:28:26. > :28:29.The art collection is a great treasure which belongs to the
:28:30. > :28:32.community. What I want to do with that closure is liberated and let
:28:33. > :28:37.people see and enjoy the art collection which of course they paid
:28:38. > :28:42.for over many years. But how does he intend on doing that? I would like
:28:43. > :28:45.to see it outside of a stuffy minister offers, including business.
:28:46. > :28:50.I'd see it in hospitals and health and building sectors, I'd see it in
:28:51. > :28:55.places where people gather. Let's see it in the committee hubs in west
:28:56. > :29:01.Belfast. The least important thing for me is that we should series
:29:02. > :29:04.wonderful treasures, these beautiful paintings, in the offices of senior
:29:05. > :29:12.civil servants and government ministers.
:29:13. > :29:17.To help with the liberation of the Minister has assembled a team of
:29:18. > :29:23.advisers chaired by one of our best known artists. I have been asked to
:29:24. > :29:30.assess the collection. Not its value, but where it came from, how
:29:31. > :29:33.it got here, what was painted, how they were painted, the cultural
:29:34. > :29:38.background of the work itself. But some of the paintings may be
:29:39. > :29:43.missing. We will find out exactly what we have and what we don't have.
:29:44. > :29:48.People were removing paintings. Where are they in the building?
:29:49. > :29:51.Maybe somebody by accident when retiring relieving kicks a piece
:29:52. > :29:56.with them. The first thing is we need to check are the 400 pieces
:29:57. > :30:02.available? Of those, what are the real gems? Where are the Neville
:30:03. > :30:08.Johnson is, the Dillons, the poll henries, we don't know. We don't
:30:09. > :30:12.build we have 1400 pieces. We are starting a work of recovery, a work
:30:13. > :30:17.of reclamation. They are starting to ask the first time this century,
:30:18. > :30:20.what do we own and can we then release and empower the public by
:30:21. > :30:26.allowing them to enjoy and see those pieces of art? So is the collection
:30:27. > :30:32.any good? We as this art expert turned politician. I know some of
:30:33. > :30:34.the pictures that went into it. Some to the Government collection. They
:30:35. > :30:39.know that people can't choose what they show in the offices. There is
:30:40. > :30:44.more in the collection. Some people will not like a tall, some other
:30:45. > :30:47.people will love. That's a question of taste. But they think it is right
:30:48. > :30:53.that you get it out in front of people. Museums have great art that
:30:54. > :30:57.is never seen, discovered buildings have art that is never seen, but we
:30:58. > :30:59.have to record it and join it up with finance ministers plans so we
:31:00. > :31:13.get the best out for everybody. But not everybody agrees. This
:31:14. > :31:20.artist is no stranger to having her work on in public places, in this
:31:21. > :31:23.case the Europa Hotel. I think a finance centre even looking at
:31:24. > :31:28.paintings is interesting. It is made job as an artist to push them in the
:31:29. > :31:32.right direction. I don't think putting a 60-year-old landscape into
:31:33. > :31:37.a job centre is really where it is at. I think it would be better off
:31:38. > :31:42.hanging in an office, at least our civil servants would be brushing
:31:43. > :31:46.shoulders with a bit of creativity. Or even better, but it would be
:31:47. > :31:49.hanging, if it is good enough, because we get a lot of stuff, but
:31:50. > :31:56.you have to pick through the chaff, if it is good enough, why couldn't
:31:57. > :32:10.we have that collection in municipal galleries?
:32:11. > :32:13.Gareth Gordon reporting - and let's hear now from tonight's
:32:14. > :32:18.commentators, Newton Emerson and Deirdre Heenan.
:32:19. > :32:23.Newton, first of all, an interesting debate between Lord Kimball and John
:32:24. > :32:27.O'Dowd, not a great big of minds. No, that I don't is about to be
:32:28. > :32:31.resolved by these two judicial review reviews and I think is
:32:32. > :32:35.becoming quite clear that Brexit isn't going to break the letter of
:32:36. > :32:38.the Good Friday Agreement. All mentions of the EU in it are pretty
:32:39. > :32:42.incidental. But if nationalists believe it has broken the spirit of
:32:43. > :32:44.the agreement that will create a big political problem that Unionism will
:32:45. > :32:48.have to deal with and it will be even larger problem in Paris at the
:32:49. > :32:53.border. Deidre? I think David Trimble made it sound very
:32:54. > :32:58.simplistic that could be sorted out over copy in the afternoon. Clearly
:32:59. > :33:00.it is not simplistic and to say that Northern Ireland Office least
:33:01. > :33:05.affected because we represent 2% of the population makes no sense. We
:33:06. > :33:09.will be adversely affected because our interests are not going to be at
:33:10. > :33:13.the top of Theresa May's agenda. This week we noticed from the
:33:14. > :33:16.Conservative Party Conference, the right are fixing the political
:33:17. > :33:20.muscle and not thinking about the implications for Northern Ireland.
:33:21. > :33:26.The people who agree with David Trimble in the driving seat
:33:27. > :33:29.seemingly. Yes, and the DUP as well. They are very gung ho about Brexit
:33:30. > :33:32.on the whole and believe it will be fine. I believe Brexit is like a
:33:33. > :33:36.united Ireland, of course it'll be fine in the end but it is having to
:33:37. > :33:39.look through the dislocation in the interim and we have a special
:33:40. > :33:42.problem with our industry because while carrots around the world are
:33:43. > :33:48.actually quite surprisingly low it is not the case for agriculture.
:33:49. > :33:52.Double that again, 40% or so for dairy, which is the specialist
:33:53. > :33:58.export sector so we'll be very badly affected and also repercussions with
:33:59. > :34:03.the South trade with the UK. But also to say that they can go to the
:34:04. > :34:07.UK and say this is what we want, they go to the EU and say jump, how
:34:08. > :34:11.high. But at the pic above the power relationship. We saw from the German
:34:12. > :34:14.industrialists that there is a huge political ill will to Britain and
:34:15. > :34:18.economic but political is very important. It is the case as Lord
:34:19. > :34:21.Trimble said that the current approach to Brussels is to do
:34:22. > :34:24.whatever you want and then let them change the rules we should have the
:34:25. > :34:27.mat inside the EU. Lots more to discuss in the weeks, months and a
:34:28. > :34:28.suspect years ahead. That's it from The View
:34:29. > :34:30.for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35
:34:31. > :34:32.here on BBC1. First we had the brawl in the hall -
:34:33. > :34:36.and now we've had the tizz over the fizz, as the DUP
:34:37. > :34:56.hosted its first champagne reception # Only a glass of champagne, but it
:34:57. > :35:04.led a poor girl into sin. When she is swelling the champagne at the
:35:05. > :35:10.Conference later this week... Well it only took until 25 to three to
:35:11. > :35:14.get that then. I can assure them that there will also be nonalcoholic
:35:15. > :35:18.drinks. In case he wants to come along, just in case. We were having
:35:19. > :35:21.a drinks reception in here and somehow it got lost in translation
:35:22. > :35:25.and it begin a champagne reception but you couldn't pay with a mug of
:35:26. > :35:29.attention we have had in relation to that matter so maybe it is all good
:35:30. > :35:30.PR. Were