:00:09. > :00:17.I believe today is the right time to call a halt to the DUP's arrogance.
:00:18. > :00:21.We find ourselves in this situation because of political calculation by
:00:22. > :00:23.Sinn Fein that they are better in the position they have chosen. That
:00:24. > :00:25.is a regret. Whichever way you look at it,
:00:26. > :00:29.it seems we're facing "A stark and very serious
:00:30. > :00:52.situation at Stormont The words of the Secretary
:00:53. > :00:56.of State, James Brokenshire. As talks continue to try
:00:57. > :00:59.and save the political institutions, Sinn Fein says it'll meet the DUP,
:01:00. > :01:05.but the time for talks has passed. With claim and counter-claim over
:01:06. > :01:10.who's to blame for the breakdown in power-sharing and who's set
:01:11. > :01:13.to lose out because of it, I'm joined by Sinn Fein's Mairtin O
:01:14. > :01:18.Muilleoir and the DUP's Paul Givan. And with a war of words well
:01:19. > :01:20.underway on the hill, what words of wisdom will there be
:01:21. > :01:23.in Commentators' Corner? Professor Deirdre Heenan
:01:24. > :01:24.and columist Newton Emerson are joined by our political editor,
:01:25. > :01:27.Mark Devenport. Plus - while it's all very
:01:28. > :01:29.serious stuff at Stormont, Tonight - is time running out
:01:30. > :01:48.for the Assembly with talk of parties organising selection
:01:49. > :01:50.meetings ahead of what looks Since Martin McGuinness'
:01:51. > :01:54.resignation on Monday, the political drama played out
:01:55. > :01:57.between the two main parties has left little hope
:01:58. > :02:00.for a last minute agreement - with today's double controversy over
:02:01. > :02:03.the Irish language and the bedroom tax throwing their differences
:02:04. > :02:07.into sharp focus. I'm joined by the Finance Minister,
:02:08. > :02:09.Mairtin O Muilleoir, and the Communities Minister,
:02:10. > :02:20.Paul Givan. Welcome to both of you. Paul Givan,
:02:21. > :02:25.you gave 34,000 people a reason to be concerned about having to pay the
:02:26. > :02:28.bedroom tax but as a Finance Minister told you, the mitigation
:02:29. > :02:34.payments can be made? The Finance Minister is wrong. And the advice I
:02:35. > :02:38.received from my Permanent Secretary backs that up and stop with clear
:02:39. > :02:42.legal advice from the attorney general, I don't know the Finance
:02:43. > :02:46.Minister has consulted the attorney general and maybe he should but I am
:02:47. > :02:51.very concerned and I have taken the unprecedented action after exploring
:02:52. > :02:54.the emergency options to lay down regulations in the Assembly going
:02:55. > :02:58.directly to the Assembly and asking for members to vote on that on
:02:59. > :03:07.Monday, with the speaker and the Business Committee... You have found
:03:08. > :03:10.a way as the Finance Minister said you would? Under normal
:03:11. > :03:15.circumstances you bring regulation to the executor. These are not
:03:16. > :03:18.normal circumstances. We did the regulation to the Executive and
:03:19. > :03:21.because of the actions of Sinn Fein is nonexecutive and I am determined
:03:22. > :03:25.those vulnerable individuals we wanted to protect from the bedroom
:03:26. > :03:30.tax will not be used as part of the collateral damage as a result of the
:03:31. > :03:36.Executive collapse. They will not lose out, 34,000 people will not
:03:37. > :03:40.have to pay the bedroom tax because of mitigation will not have to pay
:03:41. > :03:46.that? If politicians follow the lead I am giving on this. Why would they
:03:47. > :03:51.not? I hope they don't but I have had to take this action, laying down
:03:52. > :03:55.these regulations in the unusual circumstances they are in to protect
:03:56. > :03:58.these individuals. This is not the way you normally conduct business
:03:59. > :04:01.but given the unprecedented circumstances we face as result of
:04:02. > :04:05.the actions of Sinn Fein, I am taking this action based on the
:04:06. > :04:08.clear legal advice that I have received and these regulations will
:04:09. > :04:13.be laid. And that contradicts what the Finance Minister has repeatedly
:04:14. > :04:18.said and has resorted to character assassination whenever he has tried
:04:19. > :04:24.to justify his actions. We can hear from the Finance Minister. Away for
:04:25. > :04:30.mitigation payments to be made has been fined, can you confirm that
:04:31. > :04:34.Sinn Fein politicians on Monday will support what the Communities
:04:35. > :04:40.Minister is doing? This is the fifth time I have put this on the record.
:04:41. > :04:43.There will be no bedroom tax, in a interview on Monday night, Paul said
:04:44. > :04:47.that because the Executive was coming down, he would have to
:04:48. > :04:52.introduce the bedroom tax and he said there is a 99% chance he will
:04:53. > :04:57.have to introduce the bedroom tax and I said to explore that 1%. As
:04:58. > :05:02.long as politicians fall into line and support the actions that he is
:05:03. > :05:06.taking on Monday, it will be sorted? If he had taken my advice on Monday
:05:07. > :05:11.and later in the week there would be no bedroom tax and we fought long
:05:12. > :05:16.and hard against Tory posterity, we got the DUP on that page and we have
:05:17. > :05:20.insisted there will be no bedroom tax here and whether Paul does this
:05:21. > :05:24.through regulation or the mitigation payments, which is able to do so, he
:05:25. > :05:29.is making payments without regulations from his department so
:05:30. > :05:35.he has the ability to make these payments. I am quite relaxed but I
:05:36. > :05:39.am saying tonight to the DUP, you should not have been scaremongering
:05:40. > :05:46.on this issue and also, I am saying to the DUP, there will not be a
:05:47. > :05:48.bedroom tax introduced. Sinn Fein MLAs will support whatever
:05:49. > :05:52.administrative regulation -- legislation is put before the house
:05:53. > :05:57.on Monday? It is the prerogative of the Minister to sort this but Sinn
:05:58. > :06:00.Fein will support him in opposing the bedroom tax. There will be no
:06:01. > :06:05.bedroom tax. We will make sure of that. Paul Givan is planning to
:06:06. > :06:10.bring those proposals directly to the Assembly on Monday. Should your
:06:11. > :06:13.party colleague, Michelle O'Neill, the Health Minister, do the same
:06:14. > :06:18.thing with her proposals to cut waiting lists, which she says she is
:06:19. > :06:22.going to have to drop? They are different issues but you bring us
:06:23. > :06:28.back to the reason why we are in this medical impasse, not of our
:06:29. > :06:34.making, but because of the work of the DUP. We did not create the RHI
:06:35. > :06:38.debacle. You have gone off. If Paul Givan can sort out the bedroom tax,
:06:39. > :06:43.why can't Michelle O'Neill use the same method to sort out the waiting
:06:44. > :06:46.list problem she clearly has? No one is suggesting that can be sorted out
:06:47. > :06:54.by regulation at Stormont. It is different. Paul Givan has to find a
:06:55. > :07:00.way and I have offered him two ways, through his administration... This
:07:01. > :07:05.cannot be introduced on... Why not? They are different things. I want to
:07:06. > :07:11.come back to this point. The impasse were in, none of us are more
:07:12. > :07:16.disappointed than I am as the Finance Minister and the people I
:07:17. > :07:20.meet every day across the community, and we're in this impasse because of
:07:21. > :07:27.the behaviour the DUP. Your powers are limited? You can give two ways
:07:28. > :07:31.to Paul Givan for bedroom tax but you cannot find a way for your own
:07:32. > :07:37.party colleague to sort out the problem for the waiting lists? The
:07:38. > :07:40.Health Minister says she will continue to tackle those issues but
:07:41. > :07:44.I am saying we are moving into an election period and this will be a
:07:45. > :07:48.snap election, the ministers will remain in post for the time ahead
:07:49. > :07:52.but there will be disruption and we understand that the blame for that
:07:53. > :07:56.lies squarely at the door of the DUP. Paul Givan has not engaged in
:07:57. > :08:01.the petty sectarian antics on the eve of Christmas in relation to
:08:02. > :08:06.Liofa, if Arlene Foster did the right thing and stood aside and
:08:07. > :08:12.allowed a proper no hiding place investigation, we would not be...
:08:13. > :08:14.The other view is we are in a situation like this because Martin
:08:15. > :08:21.McGuinness chose to resign on Monday? And across the community,
:08:22. > :08:26.people respect their work, the heroic work that Martin McGuinness
:08:27. > :08:31.has done. That does not mean that they don't wish he'd stayed in the
:08:32. > :08:36.job? People could see no great peacemaker and bridgebuilder at that
:08:37. > :08:40.Martin McGuinness, he stretched me and the Republican constituency, he
:08:41. > :08:43.said, let's have a fresh start and we tried that and to bring Martin
:08:44. > :08:48.McGuinness to the point where he had to say, we have to hold this
:08:49. > :08:55.corruption and bigotry... Alleged corruption. We have to draw a line
:08:56. > :08:59.in the sand and say, the refusal of the DUP to engage in proper
:09:00. > :09:04.power-sharing and respect parity of esteem, and I want to say this...
:09:05. > :09:11.This is that wearying part about the DUP refusal to sign up... Can I
:09:12. > :09:17.finish this... Paul did the right thing today. When he restored this
:09:18. > :09:22.but he said he did not do this because he understood it was the
:09:23. > :09:25.wrong thing, it was because he was trying to remove the electoral
:09:26. > :09:37.advantage. People want him to respect ordinary people. Explain
:09:38. > :09:40.where you are with Liofa? I welcome that he recognises that my solution
:09:41. > :09:43.is the way to deal with bedroom tax and that is progress that they will
:09:44. > :09:47.support my approach in dealing with that because I had to find that
:09:48. > :09:53.solution, Mairtin never suggested this solution. You both agree there
:09:54. > :09:57.will be no bedroom tax? My approach was right and I welcome Sinn Fein
:09:58. > :10:03.realising that and in respect of the point that you make, well made, that
:10:04. > :10:06.people on waiting lists, people who will be implicated, having the
:10:07. > :10:10.implications of what the actions of Sinn Fein have, are putting those
:10:11. > :10:13.people, using those people to pursue the party political agenda that Sinn
:10:14. > :10:18.Fein have. That is hugely regrettable. Mairtin O'Muilleoir
:10:19. > :10:24.says you were scaremongering with bedroom tax. Is Michelle O'Neill
:10:25. > :10:28.scaremongering on waiting lists? With the Executive having to go
:10:29. > :10:31.away, into the election, ministers are unable to action certain things
:10:32. > :10:35.and you're seeing the manifestation of that, we don't have a budget
:10:36. > :10:39.because Mairtin failed to bring the budget. Maybe you should have
:10:40. > :10:43.thought more carefully about withdrawing funding from Liofa in
:10:44. > :10:48.December, on the eve of Christmas Eve? We have no budget as a result
:10:49. > :10:51.of the failure of Mairtin to bring the budget whenever there was an
:10:52. > :10:57.opportunity. His Permanent Secretary cannot implement all of the
:10:58. > :11:02.finances... Who is going to suffer? That is not the case on December 23
:11:03. > :11:07.when you decided to remove ?50,000 from the Liofa scheme? Who will
:11:08. > :11:09.suffer? The people, and politicians need to remember that we are elected
:11:10. > :11:20.to serve the people. So what prompted your U-turn on
:11:21. > :11:26.Liofa? I want to make sure that Sinn -- Sinn Fein are not able to
:11:27. > :11:29.continue this line they had taken. You did not think they would be
:11:30. > :11:33.annoyed about it and might accuse you of that? Give me one minute to
:11:34. > :11:36.explain and hopefully I will do that. Mairtin has said the same
:11:37. > :11:39.thing, that that decision was sectarian. How can a decision be
:11:40. > :11:45.sectarian when the Irish language is for all of our people? That proves
:11:46. > :11:49.the point I keep making, Sinn Fein sectarian iced the language by
:11:50. > :11:53.saying it is the preserve of the republican community and that is the
:11:54. > :11:59.problem. So your solution to the problem was to remove ?50,000 of
:12:00. > :12:03.funding from Liofa? I wasn't prepared to allow Sinn Fein to
:12:04. > :12:06.inflict further damage... So was the Culture Secretary where you were
:12:07. > :12:12.going to make that decision? Had you spoken to her? That decision, the
:12:13. > :12:18.50,000, was my decision about a kid on the basis that it would have been
:12:19. > :12:22.premature commit expenditure in the next financial year. However,
:12:23. > :12:26.recognising... Digital to the First Minister about it? Or any other
:12:27. > :12:33.members of the Executive? No, I didn't. It was a solo run you had to
:12:34. > :12:37.reverse, it was a mistake. Recognising the damage Sinn Fein had
:12:38. > :12:41.been using around the Irish language, I was not prepared to
:12:42. > :12:44.allow that. I want to move on, you say you didn't discuss with the
:12:45. > :12:49.First Minister removing funding on the 23rd of December. Did the First
:12:50. > :12:52.Minister tell you to reinstated? I spoke with the First Minister this
:12:53. > :12:57.morning. Did she tell you to reinstated? If I have the
:12:58. > :13:01.opportunity to give you the answer, I will tell you. I made it clear
:13:02. > :13:04.that my view was that Sinn Fein were using this issue to distract from
:13:05. > :13:10.all of the other issues and I felt it was one damaging to the Irish
:13:11. > :13:13.language and two, used as a political distraction. She said I
:13:14. > :13:17.could act on the basis that I then did act. She didn't tell you to do
:13:18. > :13:22.that, saying you have made a dog's breakfast, you need to sort it out?
:13:23. > :13:26.No, she didn't. I could see what Sinn Fein were doing around the
:13:27. > :13:33.Irish language, they have used it as a cultural weapon and that is
:13:34. > :13:38.damaging... With the benefit of hindsight, do you think it was worth
:13:39. > :13:44.all of the first, producing the straw that broke the camel's back by
:13:45. > :13:51.removing that ?50,000 of funding, which is 120,000 of your ?1 billion
:13:52. > :14:02.budget? Liofa has been used as a victory for what Sinn Fein are
:14:03. > :14:04.trying to do, they are trying to use this, to demand Arlene Foster step
:14:05. > :14:07.aside because they want to remove her as the leader because
:14:08. > :14:12.Republicans are frustrated that they are not able to take their agenda
:14:13. > :14:16.forward, whenever it is about... Barry Michael Dobbs said Martin
:14:17. > :14:21.McGuinness resigned because we want a united Ireland, no mention of
:14:22. > :14:26.Liofa. He outfoxed you on Liofa, he spotted what you are out and called
:14:27. > :14:29.your blood? As I said earlier, all of it was dissipated tonight when
:14:30. > :14:33.Paul said the only will reason he made a decision was to get 1-over
:14:34. > :14:39.Sinn Fein and instead of saying he now understands and accepts it that
:14:40. > :14:43.it is wrong to discriminate against... But the DUP minister
:14:44. > :14:48.saying he believes the Irish language is for everybody, due not
:14:49. > :14:52.believe that? Absolutely and it is great to see Paul coming to that
:14:53. > :14:57.with the rest of us but Paul has infected the entire basis of the
:14:58. > :15:07.people who did provide the Irish language. All have his actions speak
:15:08. > :15:12.louder than words in the Irish language, so I suppose the broader
:15:13. > :15:18.point is, when the DUP going to accept the principles of... They
:15:19. > :15:21.might think it is a bit rich coming from Mairtin O'Muilleoir and you can
:15:22. > :15:25.clear this up for us, there was a lot of talk in the week that you
:15:26. > :15:28.remove the union flag on a designated day from your office? It
:15:29. > :15:31.was not a designated day and the flag should not have been flying
:15:32. > :15:39.from my office. It is an issue for whoever put it up. Who did? I don't
:15:40. > :15:43.know and it was put by mistake and I removed it. There is legislation
:15:44. > :15:49.governing this and I observed that legislation, I tried to challenge
:15:50. > :15:52.that legislation because especially at this time... But you're happy
:15:53. > :15:57.enough with the union flag, you accept it will fly over your office
:15:58. > :16:02.on a designated day? It turns out my office isn't a designated office
:16:03. > :16:06.either. On designated days, the buildings are there. I object
:16:07. > :16:10.wholeheartedly, I think there should be two flags or no flag, but that is
:16:11. > :16:15.the law and we will continue to challenge it but in my office, there
:16:16. > :16:18.are no flags up in my office. Let's talk about an election, you seem
:16:19. > :16:22.pretty keen within Sinn Fein to get an election so people can have their
:16:23. > :16:26.say, even though we did seven months ago. What would stop the election
:16:27. > :16:32.train in its tracks? We are going to an election. We are not inevitably
:16:33. > :16:37.going. I think inexorably we are, the people have to be given the
:16:38. > :16:42.opportunity to give their say on the DUP's arrogance and belligerence,
:16:43. > :16:45.they have to have their say on the RHI scandal, Arlene Foster stood up
:16:46. > :16:51.in the Stormont Assembly and said she is the archetype of RHI. We know
:16:52. > :16:54.it is a mess and every day from the public purse, there are allegations
:16:55. > :16:58.of corruption and we know that before Christmas, we saw the most
:16:59. > :17:04.unedifying spectacle in Stormont where the integrity of the office of
:17:05. > :17:08.Speaker was... The Liofa issue has been resolved, bedroom tax is as
:17:09. > :17:12.good as sorted and Arlene Foster said she supports a public inquiry
:17:13. > :17:15.into the RHI scandal. Let's say legacy was sorted out and then offer
:17:16. > :17:20.was put on the table by the DUP, could we not avoid an election?
:17:21. > :17:25.Bedroom tax was never an issue, I was told there would never be a
:17:26. > :17:28.bedroom tax. Let's just talk about the British government, because I
:17:29. > :17:32.see James Brokenshire pretending to be an honest broker in this and the
:17:33. > :17:38.issue of legacy is disgraceful and appalling. He is an honest broker
:17:39. > :17:42.but... They have given the DUP a lot of cover on many things but
:17:43. > :17:45.particularly on the issue of legacy, whether Lord Chief Justice,
:17:46. > :17:49.unprecedented, says to the British, says to the DUP, says to the Deputy
:17:50. > :17:54.First Minister, let's have an inquest and the DUP and the British
:17:55. > :17:57.gang up. We have had this conversation. My point is that if
:17:58. > :18:01.the DUP accepted your argument and said we will move towards you on the
:18:02. > :18:07.issue, for example legacy, would that not be enough for us to avoid a
:18:08. > :18:10.costly election? Credibility in these institutions is shot, it is
:18:11. > :18:15.drained away. How does a fresh election sort that out? I don't
:18:16. > :18:18.think it does but people see through what the DUP are doing. Arlene
:18:19. > :18:22.Foster had a unique opportunity and it is not that long ago since there
:18:23. > :18:26.was an allegation against me which proved to me groundless and
:18:27. > :18:32.insignificant and Arlene Foster shared Maka de Laet said I should
:18:33. > :18:37.step aside. But you didn't. Of course I didn't put if that is the
:18:38. > :18:42.yardstick she is using, why isn't she stepping aside? But by your own
:18:43. > :18:46.yardstick, she shouldn't step aside. Poor, Arlene Foster has predicted if
:18:47. > :18:50.there is an election, it will be brutal, maybe in terms of potential
:18:51. > :18:53.losses for the DUP? We are going to go very strongly to the electorate
:18:54. > :18:58.highlighting what this is really about and what this is about, Sinn
:18:59. > :19:01.Fein had shown what it's about, it is not about RHI. In the letter
:19:02. > :19:06.Martin McGuinness sign in his resignation, it became very clear
:19:07. > :19:09.this is about Sinn Fein frustrated that the key Republican agenda that
:19:10. > :19:13.they have has not been delivered. That is why Barry Mackle Dove said
:19:14. > :19:17.the resignation was about delivering a united Ireland and whenever Sinn
:19:18. > :19:23.Fein, and I can understand why they are frustrated... That cannot be a
:19:24. > :19:26.surprise to you. So does the SDLP. That is exactly why they are trying
:19:27. > :19:32.to bring this to a head, they want to use this to extract and expand
:19:33. > :19:36.Tich for Republicans and we can unionism and we can see exactly what
:19:37. > :19:40.is going on -- extract an advantage. When it was brought down on three
:19:41. > :19:45.occasions, he did so from position of weakness and he always ended up
:19:46. > :19:48.costing unionism. Sinn Fein are bringing these institutions down and
:19:49. > :19:52.should have learned from history. We know, because Gerry Adams has said
:19:53. > :19:56.it, a quality is the Trojan horse to break these and I will not use the
:19:57. > :20:02.foul language that he sought to use against those in the DUP and
:20:03. > :20:07.unionists. Do you seriously think that over the past number of weeks,
:20:08. > :20:10.the DUP has demonstrated a short-handed grasp of the issues and
:20:11. > :20:14.fitness for government, or is it possibly the case that people within
:20:15. > :20:20.your own party, your own grassroots, wondering aloud if you have frankly
:20:21. > :20:24.lost your way in the DUP? No, because at every step, we have been
:20:25. > :20:28.dealing with RHI, we have recognised the flaws that existed when it was
:20:29. > :20:31.set up. Other parties didn't see that. Simo Hamilton came into office
:20:32. > :20:36.and has been seeking to deal with this. You made a mess and now you
:20:37. > :20:39.are looking to deal with it, the point is you made a mess in the
:20:40. > :20:43.first place. We have recognised and Arlene Foster has said the deepest
:20:44. > :20:47.political regret of her career is not having those cost controls in
:20:48. > :20:51.place. You don't just say that and move onto the next thing. There are
:20:52. > :20:55.implications and consequences of an admission like that. Arlene Foster
:20:56. > :21:00.doesn't seem to recognise that fact. You fix the problem and that is what
:21:01. > :21:02.the public expect, not walking away from the challenges, meeting them
:21:03. > :21:06.head on and fixing them and that is what we have been doing and we have
:21:07. > :21:10.sought to have a public inquiry set up because of the election. For a
:21:11. > :21:13.long time coming you said you didn't want a public inquiry, that is
:21:14. > :21:17.another U-turn. We have wanted to have the cost control mechanisms...
:21:18. > :21:23.You have done a U-turn on the public inquiry. Mairtin's officials are
:21:24. > :21:27.dealing with it and hopefully they will give him the advice. Maybe you
:21:28. > :21:33.didn't hear me, you have done a U-turn on a public inquiry. Not at
:21:34. > :21:36.all. Yes you have, the DUP and the Belfast City Council voted against
:21:37. > :21:41.the public inquiry last week, it was so clearly in the house, "There will
:21:42. > :21:45.be no public inquiry". Now all of a sudden the DUP wants a public
:21:46. > :21:50.inquiry, that is a U-turn. Arlene Foster has said we want to get to
:21:51. > :21:53.the truth, as do I, through an independent inquiry free from party
:21:54. > :21:56.political interference so when Mairtin comes on this programme and
:21:57. > :22:05.talks about corruption and says things without any evidence to back
:22:06. > :22:07.things up, quite rightly it is pointed out that these things are
:22:08. > :22:09.alleged because they want to engaging character assassination of
:22:10. > :22:11.Arlene Foster and remover has leader. On Tuesday, your former
:22:12. > :22:15.party leader said within our she would make an announcement about the
:22:16. > :22:20.public inquiry. More than 24 hours late, we don't know what is
:22:21. > :22:24.happening. What is the problem? Obviously, there is an ongoing
:22:25. > :22:29.process. There is a sticking point, what is it? We have made it clear
:22:30. > :22:33.that we want a public inquiry but interestingly, Sinn Fein don't want
:22:34. > :22:40.the public inquiry. Why is that? Because the passer Nou Camp family
:22:41. > :22:44.do not want... So no you cannot deliver public inquiry. They are
:22:45. > :22:47.more interested in appeasing the Republican agenda than dealing with
:22:48. > :22:51.the issue. I want to bring in Mairtin O'Muilleoir can, Arlene
:22:52. > :22:58.Foster promised a public inquiry more than 48 hours ago, it has hit a
:22:59. > :23:02.sticking point, you can't bring in a public inquiry? We want the public
:23:03. > :23:06.inquiry. We understand that but you don't seem to be able to deliver it.
:23:07. > :23:11.Let's be clear, part of the reason is because Sinn Fein are pulling the
:23:12. > :23:16.shutters down on the institutions. Mairtin O'Muilleoir, where are we on
:23:17. > :23:20.an investigative inquiry? To pick up on Paul given's point, because
:23:21. > :23:23.Martin McGuinness has walked away from the Executive, you cannot
:23:24. > :23:28.investigate the very thing you began this interview talking about as the
:23:29. > :23:32.reason for the collapse of the Executive. I talked about
:23:33. > :23:41.allegations of corruption and the breathtaking arrogance of the DUP.
:23:42. > :23:45.And I talked about the refusal to... But in terms of an inquiry, if wants
:23:46. > :23:49.to bring forward proposals, let him do that. But it is made all the more
:23:50. > :23:52.difficult because of the root Sinn Fein has taken. It has been all the
:23:53. > :23:59.more difficult but we will see what he comes up with. Let's go back to
:24:00. > :24:03.the examples of the arrogance that led us here. Arlene Foster had an
:24:04. > :24:10.opportunity, we need to investigate this botched scheme. She was at the
:24:11. > :24:15.helm and the DUP Finance Minister signed off on it and the economic
:24:16. > :24:19.minister was in the studio making allegations about that scheme. We
:24:20. > :24:21.know it was a mess, it cost us a lot of money and they should have been
:24:22. > :24:27.an investigation. They missed a golden opportunity to say to the
:24:28. > :24:32.public, we understand you believe the DUP lives in a cultural bubble
:24:33. > :24:35.and instead, we will show humility and they didn't. We have an
:24:36. > :24:39.election, that initial assessment and then after the election, we have
:24:40. > :24:44.talks for a limited period to see if we can get the Assembly back up and
:24:45. > :24:47.running? What we have done is called time on the DUP's folly and
:24:48. > :24:53.arrogance and the discrimination and refusal to accept... This is just
:24:54. > :24:56.back and forth. We are back to the issues of equality and back to the
:24:57. > :25:01.issues of the Good Friday agreement. You are in a political vacuum,
:25:02. > :25:05.staring direct rule in the face. People will have a chance to have
:25:06. > :25:09.their verdict on the behaviour of the DUP when time has passed and I'm
:25:10. > :25:13.confident of further people will respond. Gerry Adams has made it
:25:14. > :25:17.clear, equality is the Trojan horse to break unionism and what he really
:25:18. > :25:21.wants is compliant unionists that rolled over to Republicans and time
:25:22. > :25:25.and time again, we will not do that and that's really what Sinn Fein is
:25:26. > :25:32.about because they are frustrated that we won't concede two key
:25:33. > :25:36.Republican demands. We know what you're using it for. If we have an
:25:37. > :25:39.election, there will be ample opportunity for you to to continue
:25:40. > :25:43.this conversation in this very studio if you would like to do so.
:25:44. > :25:45.And joining me now in Commentators' Corner are Deirdre Heenan
:25:46. > :25:47.and Newton Emerson, who've been joined tonight
:25:48. > :25:51.by our Political Editor, Mark Devenport.
:25:52. > :26:00.Lots to talk about. If we pick up with what we have been hearing
:26:01. > :26:07.tonight. Is any clarification on some of those seemingly impossible,
:26:08. > :26:11.intractable issues? That we have been talking about. A few things
:26:12. > :26:17.John died. Mairtin O'Muilleoir said we were inexorably going towards an
:26:18. > :26:20.election and there was a bubble of optimism that the Taoiseach said,
:26:21. > :26:23.there might be direct talks between these parties and the implication
:26:24. > :26:28.was that they could avert this election and we have not had those
:26:29. > :26:32.direct talks, and even if we do, the Finance Minister is giving us no
:26:33. > :26:36.wriggle room, saying the election is coming. The other thing we heard was
:26:37. > :26:40.the admission from Paul Givan that there is a sticking point in Arlene
:26:41. > :26:44.Foster's cunning plan for the enquiry. She said earlier this week
:26:45. > :26:49.that she wanted the enquiry to clear her name quickly and we were told
:26:50. > :26:53.there would be progress within 24 hours. That deadline ran out on
:26:54. > :26:58.Wednesday and we have not heard anything and it looks like no other
:26:59. > :27:02.minister has gone to their age, they might have to do this themselves.
:27:03. > :27:08.There is no love lost between those ministers. In the studio tonight, in
:27:09. > :27:12.front of the cameras. The question is, is at the beginning of the
:27:13. > :27:17.electioneering process? Does that tell us that effectively, for now,
:27:18. > :27:22.relations between the DUP and Sinn Fein have gone? It seems that any
:27:23. > :27:27.process this week is fully, were in the business of electioneering,
:27:28. > :27:31.tonight Sinn Fein members in Derry had a meeting and they were talking
:27:32. > :27:36.about moving towards an election, the DUP said they were getting their
:27:37. > :27:39.candidate sorted. Everything is in terms of positioning ahead of that
:27:40. > :27:45.election and I suppose part of the blame game, so if there is any mess,
:27:46. > :27:49.any messy situation in terms of things going amiss, we will have
:27:50. > :27:54.these parties blaming it on the other side and saying, we're not
:27:55. > :28:01.responsible for this mess. It is you with the RHI work you for pulling
:28:02. > :28:03.out? Eight weeks ago we were told by prominent DUP members and Sinn Fein
:28:04. > :28:07.that they were working hard to get the partnership government really
:28:08. > :28:11.going full steam and anybody who dared suggest things might be more
:28:12. > :28:17.difficult than they were saying was getting their knuckles rapped. Just
:28:18. > :28:23.over one years since the fresh start agreement, when OFMDFM said they
:28:24. > :28:28.would can find the critics and have a new dispensation in government and
:28:29. > :28:33.they would work in partnership but we are witnessing a very public
:28:34. > :28:36.breakdown in relationships and are very toxic relationship and it is
:28:37. > :28:41.difficult to see how they can come together. It was interesting that
:28:42. > :28:44.Paul Givan said the removal of the grant was not political, he could
:28:45. > :28:49.not explain what it was. What he made quite clear was the decision to
:28:50. > :28:56.restore it was a political decision, to get one up on Sinn Fein, this is
:28:57. > :29:01.not an olive branch to say, it was a ham-fisted decision, it was a
:29:02. > :29:06.political decision. It is not in the nature of Sinn Fein to let a good
:29:07. > :29:09.crisis go to waste, but it is a mistake to portray this as some kind
:29:10. > :29:15.of Republican plot against unionism, it is a fact that Sinn Fein tried up
:29:16. > :29:18.to Christmas to avoid this crisis and they tied themselves up in
:29:19. > :29:24.embarrassing knots to get Arlene Foster off the hook so now it has
:29:25. > :29:29.finally come to the red line, Gerry Adams has thrown the ball into the
:29:30. > :29:33.air with gusto. That is something that Sinn Fein has taken upon
:29:34. > :29:40.itself. There is no grand plot against unionism here. The question
:29:41. > :29:45.is, if we are staring and election in the face, what happens when me,
:29:46. > :29:50.to the other end and be presented with precisely the same problems? It
:29:51. > :29:55.looks like the parties will be back in identical proportions as neither
:29:56. > :30:00.party has set out what this election will achieve, if they hope this will
:30:01. > :30:03.defuse the situation, that will not happen with the very divisive
:30:04. > :30:07.rhetoric we have seen already. And it is the other alternative, if we
:30:08. > :30:12.don't manage to get things running again after the election, of a
:30:13. > :30:16.prolonged period of direct rule as Jeffrey Donaldson says is entirely
:30:17. > :30:20.possible. And he is being realistic and some people are talking with
:30:21. > :30:23.nostalgia about direct rule, at least we would have stability. Those
:30:24. > :30:28.people would not be squandering our money. We have to be careful about
:30:29. > :30:32.what we wish for, all of this discussion about welfare, make no
:30:33. > :30:37.mistake, with direct rule we would feel the full force of welfare
:30:38. > :30:39.reform. We would be looking charges we don't have, the tripling of
:30:40. > :30:45.university fees, prescription charges, water charges. If we had
:30:46. > :30:49.Tory ministers coming here, they would not be interested in the
:30:50. > :30:53.particular situation in Northern Ireland and it is incumbent on these
:30:54. > :30:57.people and we voted for to make sure they come to some agreement. We want
:30:58. > :31:01.to be masters of our own destiny, we want devolution but it has to be
:31:02. > :31:04.worked out and this very public breakdown makes it seem very
:31:05. > :31:15.difficult. Mark, is this the bottom line? Were now in the area of having
:31:16. > :31:18.to re-negotiate on a St Andrews style basis, the basis of the
:31:19. > :31:24.agreement needs to be examined? Is that where we are going? It looks
:31:25. > :31:27.like we shall have a long list of demands on either side if we get
:31:28. > :31:31.into a situation of negotiations after the election and it looks like
:31:32. > :31:35.any resolution will take longer than the three weeks set aside for the
:31:36. > :31:38.formation of the coalition. I would agree there is a strong likelihood
:31:39. > :31:46.we will end up having the return of some form of direct rule with a
:31:47. > :31:49.suspension. If you get into the structures, our structures are
:31:50. > :31:54.particularly clumsy because some of the safeguards built in with the
:31:55. > :31:57.Good Friday Agreement have become mutually destructive, vetoes, and
:31:58. > :32:01.any row, whether constitutional or something like welfare reform, like
:32:02. > :32:07.the heating scandal, it is hard to handle. The changes to the
:32:08. > :32:11.structures, the problems will be the main players will be pulling in
:32:12. > :32:15.different directions. Sinn Fein might want to have a change to the
:32:16. > :32:20.petition of concern, meaning it would not just be the DUP who could
:32:21. > :32:23.operate that, would the DUP agree? Nationalists might want to change
:32:24. > :32:28.what is more towards the joint authority model. These changes in
:32:29. > :32:32.the structures will be difficult. And there are other things, at a
:32:33. > :32:37.critical time in terms of Brexit negotiations, whether you are for
:32:38. > :32:40.remain or a loser, Northern Ireland would not be represented at
:32:41. > :32:44.government level, local government level, devolved administration
:32:45. > :32:51.level, in London. And we don't have a plan for Brexit. We haven't set
:32:52. > :32:55.out the options are what will happen, hard, soft, it is as if we
:32:56. > :33:03.don't want to discuss this and this is a huge issue... The reality is...
:33:04. > :33:06.Stormont could not agree on Brexit anyway and Theresa May was not going
:33:07. > :33:10.to give Stormont any say so in literal terms it signifies the
:33:11. > :33:15.issue. It will certainly stir up nationalist anger that we have no
:33:16. > :33:18.say. We are already on an election footing, we have moved away from the
:33:19. > :33:25.heating scandal and we're talking about republicanism against
:33:26. > :33:29.unionism. Final sentence? I think Brexit, the British government will
:33:30. > :33:30.take this decision but it might feature in negotiations because
:33:31. > :33:31.nationalism will want that recognise.
:33:32. > :33:37.I'll be back with Sunday Politics at 11.35am here on BBC One
:33:38. > :33:39.but before we go, the events at Stormont
:33:40. > :33:41.have been the gift that keeps on giving for local satirists
:33:42. > :33:44.and the internet has been coming down with videos,
:33:45. > :33:47.So we leave you with some of the best,
:33:48. > :33:50.thanks to Keith Law and the people at Ulster Fry and Lad.
:33:51. > :34:43.Our efforts as a party have been to try to exploit the Renewable Heat
:34:44. > :34:46.Incentive at a time when we are needing to create more jobs,
:34:47. > :34:52.Northern Ireland needs stability. But because of our selfish actions,
:34:53. > :35:11.we have instability. This is how farmers make money...
:35:12. > :35:15.So what if I forgot our poxy anniversary?
:35:16. > :35:18.Er, I think this year was copper. 14th is poxy.
:35:19. > :35:20.Marriage is a marathon, not a sprint.
:35:21. > :35:22.Like a marathon, you have to keep on going...