:00:00. > :00:07.It's been an extraordinary day here in a city that has seen more
:00:08. > :00:10.than its share of historic events as thousands of mourners lined
:00:11. > :00:13.the streets of the Bogside to pay tribute to Martin McGuinness.
:00:14. > :00:16.Tonight on The View we assess the complicated legacy of the former
:00:17. > :00:39.IRA commander who became Deputy First Minister.
:00:40. > :00:44.Hello and welcome to the walls of Derry.
:00:45. > :00:50.We're overlooking the Bogside, which today saw extraordinary
:00:51. > :00:52.scenes, as VIPs joined thousands of mourners to pay respects
:00:53. > :00:54.to Martin McGuinness, the one-time IRA commander turned
:00:55. > :01:06.A man with a disputed legacy - while some can never
:01:07. > :01:08.forgive his IRA role, others saw him as a man
:01:09. > :01:29.The former United States President Bill Clinton made the trip.
:01:30. > :01:31.I spoke to him moments after he addressed those
:01:32. > :01:44.Why is it so important to be here today? First of all... We spent a
:01:45. > :01:51.long time together, when I was president. And I wanted to honour
:01:52. > :02:00.him for what he did. War to peace. And to emphasise that it is one
:02:01. > :02:08.thing to make peace, another to make it work. That is an endless process.
:02:09. > :02:13.You have got work on that all the time. To and all these people, who
:02:14. > :02:17.justifiably respect the fact that he changed war to peace, really
:02:18. > :02:22.committing himself to the work that needs to be done. And you're
:02:23. > :02:25.optimistic that the politicians listening in charge today are going
:02:26. > :02:35.to take that message on board? I think so. This whole rise of
:02:36. > :02:44.tribalism, all over the world, everything that is happening. Dutch
:02:45. > :02:51.didn't go for it. And I think the reaction is beginning to set in. It
:02:52. > :02:56.is not as though you can repeal interdependence. The debate is about
:02:57. > :03:03.defining the terms of independence. If you believe that, then shrinking
:03:04. > :03:08.the definition of us, them, that is not a good strategy. Still plenty of
:03:09. > :03:14.things to debate about, how best do you trade, do immigration,
:03:15. > :03:20.negotiation. That is basically what is at stake. And when it mattered,
:03:21. > :03:25.Martin McGuinness made the correct decision. That was Bill Clinton
:03:26. > :03:31.talking to me earlier. With me now to help unravel
:03:32. > :03:33.the complicated figure that was Martin McGuinness
:03:34. > :03:35.are Peter Sheridan of Co-Operation Ireland,
:03:36. > :03:36.Denis Bradley who knew Martin McGuinness much
:03:37. > :03:47.of his adult life, and the DUP This is the first time we've heard
:03:48. > :03:51.from, Gregory, sense the death of Martin McGuinness. Why have you
:03:52. > :03:58.broken the silence? Some people would say, why have I been silent,
:03:59. > :04:05.rather than break it? But I think what many people would think of the
:04:06. > :04:10.person who is deceased, the family, close friends, should be allowed
:04:11. > :04:17.some time to grieve, and bury their loved one. I imposed this
:04:18. > :04:22.self-imposed silence, until after the funeral. That is why I have not
:04:23. > :04:26.spoken about any of these matters, until now, despite numerous
:04:27. > :04:33.requests. Arlene Foster was applauded by members of the
:04:34. > :04:38.congregation when she entered the church for the service today. Do you
:04:39. > :04:43.applaud her, for attending the funeral today? I think these are
:04:44. > :04:48.matters of conscience for the individual. I would not criticise
:04:49. > :04:52.anyone for going privately to the, publicly to the funeral service,
:04:53. > :04:55.signing the book of condolence, just as I hope nobody would criticise
:04:56. > :05:01.those who choose not to do those things. Do you think she did the
:05:02. > :05:08.correct thing, attending today? I think it was her choice. But I am
:05:09. > :05:11.asking you. I think it was her choice. Just as I would not have
:05:12. > :05:15.criticised her she had not gone, I am not going to criticise her for
:05:16. > :05:20.going. You talked about the complicated legacy, and we should
:05:21. > :05:26.look at the two aspects of Martin McGuinness. The last ten, 15 years,
:05:27. > :05:31.it is undoubtedly the case that he had done much to promote politics,
:05:32. > :05:37.promoting peace, trying to make progress for Northern Ireland. You
:05:38. > :05:48.recognise that? I do recognise that. But what we must not do, ignore the
:05:49. > :05:51.first 25 years of his life, walls on Londonderry now, west bank. And when
:05:52. > :05:57.Martin McGuinness joined the IRA, thousands upon thousands fled the
:05:58. > :06:02.city as a result of the actions of Martin McGuinness. But you do except
:06:03. > :06:07.that was in the past. He could have been involved in the Troubles, an
:06:08. > :06:12.active member of the IRA, many years ago, nonetheless he contributed very
:06:13. > :06:18.significantly to the peace process for Northern Ireland. That is what
:06:19. > :06:24.Bill Clinton said. I recognise that and I recognise that 15 years ago.
:06:25. > :06:31.We all moved. But what we must not allow to happen, we must not allow
:06:32. > :06:36.the rerating of the past. When we talk about building the peace
:06:37. > :06:40.process, and the past five years for example, the progress that has been
:06:41. > :06:44.made, unfortunately even when it came to the very end, when Martin
:06:45. > :06:53.McGuinness was resigned as Deputy First Minister, very ill. And we
:06:54. > :06:57.could see that he was very ill. The final interview, when he was asked
:06:58. > :07:01.if he regretted any of the actions that he took part in, he said he
:07:02. > :07:08.regretted not of that. That unfortunately for me, it is a sad
:07:09. > :07:15.indictment of Martin McGuinness. Does that unpick the positive
:07:16. > :07:22.aspects of his legacy? I think that for the complicates the picture,
:07:23. > :07:27.even after 25 years of peace, being lauded as a statesman, he cannot say
:07:28. > :07:34.that he regrets the violence, the murder, human bomb, all of that. But
:07:35. > :07:38.it is a complicated picture and we have to acknowledge what steps have
:07:39. > :07:42.been made, but we must not lose sight of the fact we only need of
:07:43. > :07:53.the peace process because of people like Martin McGuinness. Can you
:07:54. > :07:57.square that circle for Gregory? I do not know if I can do that for
:07:58. > :08:06.Gregory, but you have got the rerating of history, I was actually
:08:07. > :08:09.there when some of Gregory's co religionists left a street near
:08:10. > :08:16.here. The movement of the Protestant people. I knew Martin McGuinness at
:08:17. > :08:20.that time. He was not the leader of the IRA, he was involved with
:08:21. > :08:27.people, beginning to become some kind of leadership. I think it is
:08:28. > :08:30.terribly wrong, historically it is wrong, politically, to personalise
:08:31. > :08:35.these matters to the point when you talk about Martin McGuinness did
:08:36. > :08:41.that, this, that. The truth of the matter, politically we are divided
:08:42. > :08:44.society, we have been for centuries and we need to come together
:08:45. > :08:52.politically to get past these things. If you put all that on
:08:53. > :08:55.Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams, Queen, Margaret Thatcher, you're
:08:56. > :09:04.missing the point. And Gregory, I think you always miss the point. You
:09:05. > :09:08.always end up blaming Martin McGuinness, some leader of England
:09:09. > :09:13.for that, we have known that for decades. What we need to know now,
:09:14. > :09:18.how we solve that. And if you personalise that to this degree,
:09:19. > :09:22.beyond the point of people making a choice, of course they made the
:09:23. > :09:27.choice, but if you personalise it beyond that then you miss the core
:09:28. > :09:32.of how you actively achieve political reconciliation. The issue
:09:33. > :09:41.is this, when Martin McGuinness and I were both similar age growing up,
:09:42. > :09:49.I faced the same discrimination, but I was not taking up a gun. Did not
:09:50. > :09:55.murder. You may have felt marginalised, but it was different.
:09:56. > :10:00.My family, friends, all intimidated. That is in the past. I agree with
:10:01. > :10:05.Dennis. But the problem that we had, even when Martin McGuinness and
:10:06. > :10:10.others, who had moved, and directly based on knowledge the move at the
:10:11. > :10:13.time, and I have done so since on numerous occasions... Whenever they
:10:14. > :10:18.were asked about the numerous individual instances, Gillespie, the
:10:19. > :10:24.two policeman gunned down here three days before bloody Sunday, every
:10:25. > :10:33.single instance Martin McGuinness said that he knew nothing about it.
:10:34. > :10:40.Denial. Denial. Denial. Can I just say... You're in danger of raising
:10:41. > :10:47.some victim expectations. This thing about Martin McGuinness went to
:10:48. > :10:52.date. You do not understand, the IRA worked in sales. Martin McGuinness
:10:53. > :10:57.may not have known anything. About anything? Everything that I asked of
:10:58. > :11:03.it, he said he did not know anything. You have got the right to
:11:04. > :11:13.complain about that, but do not release the expectations of victims.
:11:14. > :11:18.The Sinn Fein party, all the other parties, failed to grasp how to deal
:11:19. > :11:22.with the past. You were told ten years ago, still working with that
:11:23. > :11:27.and you have not dealt with that. I want to bring Peter in. We have
:11:28. > :11:32.talked about the past and we want to talk about the future. You want to
:11:33. > :11:37.build reconciliation, in a debate community, working towards a more
:11:38. > :11:43.positive future. But in a previous life, you were also police commander
:11:44. > :11:48.in the city. It is possible, is it not, some of those people close to
:11:49. > :11:53.Martin McGuinness with an Republican circles may have been planning to
:11:54. > :12:00.kill you? How do you feel about attending the funeral today? I did
:12:01. > :12:04.not know Martin McGuinness throughout the opening 20 years of
:12:05. > :12:10.his life, growing up in poverty. I did not know that. I knew about him
:12:11. > :12:14.in the next 20 years, when he took to violence, as a way of dealing
:12:15. > :12:20.with rage, anger, those things that he saw us wrong. But I got to know
:12:21. > :12:27.him, in the last 20 years of his life, when he was dealing with the
:12:28. > :12:33.peace process, and I got to know him, like Ian Paisley, Arlene
:12:34. > :12:37.Foster, Peter Robinson, I think those people who knew him, came to
:12:38. > :12:42.the conclusion that he was genuine and what he was trying to do. And as
:12:43. > :12:45.an organisation Corporation, he was supportive of all the work that we
:12:46. > :12:48.are trying to do, both within Northern Ireland, building
:12:49. > :12:58.reconciliation. Did you absolutely believe him when
:12:59. > :13:03.he talked about those issues with you? Do you think he had had an
:13:04. > :13:08.absolute conversion away from his violent past towards a peaceful and
:13:09. > :13:14.better future? I think when you see the people who turned up today, who
:13:15. > :13:20.knew him, not that they knew of him like I did in the first 20 years,
:13:21. > :13:27.but knew him, once you knew him, I think you recognised he was genuine.
:13:28. > :13:30.Do you think that Gregory Campbell might have a different view of
:13:31. > :13:35.Martin McGuinness tonight if he had been in a position to get to know
:13:36. > :13:39.him? A lot of people have said that actually there was a personal
:13:40. > :13:43.warmth, and when you got to know him, he was persuasive and he could
:13:44. > :13:49.convince you that he actually had changed and was working for a better
:13:50. > :13:58.future. I am not naive about those 20 years, that middle 20 years. I
:13:59. > :14:03.was a police officer for 32 years. I saw too many horrific events in the
:14:04. > :14:09.city, not to be anything other than naive around this. When I got to
:14:10. > :14:14.know the person, I genuinely... And I don't know, but maybe if Chen --
:14:15. > :14:19.Gregory got a home, I don't know, but maybe he would have thought
:14:20. > :14:24.differently about him. But I had that ability, through faith I got
:14:25. > :14:31.the ability to know him in the last 20 years. Gregory, you never shook
:14:32. > :14:38.his hand, is that right? Had you sat in a room and talked to him? Yes,
:14:39. > :14:46.many years ago. But did you shake hands with him? Know. Was that a
:14:47. > :14:52.deliberate move? Probably, yes. Was that because of a concerned that if
:14:53. > :14:57.you had done that, he might have one year over? Do you regret today that
:14:58. > :15:03.you did not make the effort to get to know the man who Bill Clinton and
:15:04. > :15:08.Arlene Foster spoke about in the last few days? I know that a man who
:15:09. > :15:15.involved himself deeply in a peace process wouldn't have had to do that
:15:16. > :15:20.if he himself had not provided the violence that required the peace
:15:21. > :15:24.process in the first place. I do not care who is content with that, or
:15:25. > :15:32.angry with that. Because that is the reality. The challenge is that three
:15:33. > :15:37.senior members of the DUP, two of them former leaders, Ian Paisley who
:15:38. > :15:39.became a personal friend, Peter Robinson who said today their
:15:40. > :15:46.relationship went beyond friendship, and he thought he was in a better
:15:47. > :15:50.position to judge him than anyone else, and today Arlene Foster, they
:15:51. > :15:55.were persuaded by him. You are out of step with the leadership of your
:15:56. > :16:00.own party. Does that court caused a problem? I am not out of step. All
:16:01. > :16:03.of those leaders knew that they had to make progress for the greater
:16:04. > :16:07.good of everybody in Northern Ireland. Our own community, the
:16:08. > :16:13.nationalist community, and those who would not describe themselves as
:16:14. > :16:17.either. I am as committed to doing that as everyone else. But in doing
:16:18. > :16:21.that, and this is the point, it is not either or, in doing that I will
:16:22. > :16:29.not allow the past to be rewritten. Nobody will obliterate the past. In
:16:30. > :16:33.that middle 20 years, I took one path, Martin McGuinness took
:16:34. > :16:39.another. Him and I could never reconcile those just -- two separate
:16:40. > :16:43.paths. But we were able to accept that the other person had a story. I
:16:44. > :16:48.did not agree with his story, I did not say it was right. Martin
:16:49. > :16:53.McGuinness would never say my story was right. But both of us accepted
:16:54. > :16:58.that each other had a story, in the interests of the next generation, to
:16:59. > :17:03.make this a better place. Denis Bradley, you officiated at Martin
:17:04. > :17:06.McGuinness's wedding many years ago. A lot of water has flowed under the
:17:07. > :17:14.bridge since then. How would you sum up the mood in this city today? We
:17:15. > :17:17.saw a lot of people on the streets paying their respects, we saw
:17:18. > :17:22.spontaneous and warm applause for Arlene Foster when she entered their
:17:23. > :17:25.church. In a minute or so, just give me your sense of the significance of
:17:26. > :17:32.what happened in this place today. I think that the thousands of people
:17:33. > :17:36.were on the street because they recognise Martin not as -- not just
:17:37. > :17:40.as the person who was in the IRA, but the person who got rid of the
:17:41. > :17:44.IRA. Because people are sensible enough to know that only a real
:17:45. > :17:48.insider can get rid of an organisation. And Martin was that
:17:49. > :17:52.person. He wasn't the only person, but he was very, very big in that.
:17:53. > :17:57.On the other hand, I think the warm applause is from what I would call
:17:58. > :18:03.rural Northern Ireland and from the city, this city. I think that was
:18:04. > :18:07.the main focal congregation today, and they were saying, we wish you
:18:08. > :18:11.well, we want you to be part of the negotiations, we want you to reach
:18:12. > :18:16.out and we want to reach out to you. I'd I think that actually his
:18:17. > :18:20.legacy, I don't like the word, but his legacy may be in death he made
:18:21. > :18:27.it easier for Arlene and even for Gregory hopefully in the future, to
:18:28. > :18:31.actually begin to get past this personalisation of "You are the
:18:32. > :18:35.devil and I am not the devil." Both of us are either good people or else
:18:36. > :18:39.we are terribly bad people, but we need to reach out to each other
:18:40. > :18:44.because of our politics and because of our past, and that is the real
:18:45. > :18:50.history and the real truth. Gregory, briefly, do you accept that? We have
:18:51. > :18:58.to make progress. And that involves compromise. Yes, and that compromise
:18:59. > :19:04.will undoubtedly be required next month, next year... Your macro must
:19:05. > :19:08.complete it not allowing anyone to try to betray themselves or those
:19:09. > :19:13.who passed away as saints, when they were anything but. That will not be
:19:14. > :19:19.allowed to happen, no matter what anyone says. Not well there are many
:19:20. > :19:22.of us still to remind them of what happened. We have got a Bill beyond
:19:23. > :19:30.that and make sure we never, ever go back to those days. -- we have got
:19:31. > :19:33.to build beyond that. Final sentence, Peter Sheridan. Well, I
:19:34. > :19:39.think that the last third of his life was that time he made that
:19:40. > :19:43.transition, that difference. There are 1000 people alive today because
:19:44. > :19:47.of the Good Friday Agreement and all of those efforts. That is the bit I
:19:48. > :19:48.would prefer to remember. Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed for
:19:49. > :19:50.joining us tonight. When President Clinton
:19:51. > :19:51.addressed the congregation, he made a clear plea
:19:52. > :19:53.to the politicians Just minutes later I spoke to
:19:54. > :19:57.the former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, and asked him for his reaction
:19:58. > :20:11.to that message. That was the simple and direct
:20:12. > :20:17.message that, you know, people who have the obligation to follow on and
:20:18. > :20:21.finish it. That was the message from the president. And when you saw
:20:22. > :20:26.Arlene Foster and Peter Robinson there, what did you think? I'm
:20:27. > :20:33.delighted they were there and delighted also at the reception they
:20:34. > :20:38.got from the people here in Derry. I think, you know, there is no doubt
:20:39. > :20:41.about it, people just want positive things in their life, they want
:20:42. > :20:55.positive progress. They want people to move on, and move on from the
:20:56. > :20:58.past. What would you say to those individuals who struggle with Martin
:20:59. > :21:05.McGuinness's Path, who cannot see beyond that? And have been critical
:21:06. > :21:11.in what they have said in recent days? -- Martin McGuinness's past. I
:21:12. > :21:16.understand that. I spent many long hours and days and weeks talking to
:21:17. > :21:23.the families of those who suffered violence, I always made a point of
:21:24. > :21:32.meeting those from every walk of life, whether they were relatives of
:21:33. > :21:35.British soldiers or former RUC officers or innocent nationalists or
:21:36. > :21:41.whoever. And I always made a point of meeting and talking to them. So I
:21:42. > :21:45.understand the hurt and the pain. You never forget, nobody's asking
:21:46. > :21:53.anyone to forget. We are asking them to forgive, to allow a fair way to
:21:54. > :21:57.the future. Just finally, with Martin McGuinness no longer playing
:21:58. > :22:01.a part in the political process here, and with politics in Northern
:22:02. > :22:06.Ireland that such a delicate stage, as the weekend approaches and
:22:07. > :22:13.Monday's deadline is nearly upon us, are you optimistic that outstanding
:22:14. > :22:17.issues can be resolved? I am, and I'm not directly involved but I do
:22:18. > :22:24.not -- understand these issues inside out. To be frank, there are
:22:25. > :22:29.not many issues to be resolved. I think what is necessary to resolve
:22:30. > :22:37.is that everyone is committed wholeheartedly, 100% committed, to
:22:38. > :22:44.the argumentation of it all. There may be one or two issues around,
:22:45. > :22:47.current issues, but we got around far bigger things in the scale of
:22:48. > :22:57.things, these are not insurmountable. I mean, what are the
:22:58. > :23:04.alternatives? Direct rule? I don't think anyone wants that. Another
:23:05. > :23:12.election? It would be insanity. More procrastination? Useless, time
:23:13. > :23:18.wasting. The best thing is, do it. Bertie Ahern.
:23:19. > :23:21.Well, the former First Minister of Scotland Alex Salmond held office
:23:22. > :23:23.in Edinburgh at the same time as Martin McGuinness
:23:24. > :23:26.I asked him what sort of professional and personal
:23:27. > :23:28.relationship he had with Martin McGuinness.
:23:29. > :23:32.I got to know him when I became First Minister in 2007, and Ian
:23:33. > :23:39.Paisley had moved in as First Minister, Martin as deputy. And I
:23:40. > :23:44.got -- I had known Ian for donkey's years before that, but I got to know
:23:45. > :23:48.Martin really well, and of course Martin was one of these people, as
:23:49. > :23:51.soon as you got to know him, he was a joy. I don't know anybody who met
:23:52. > :23:56.Martin who did not think better of him after they had met him. And I
:23:57. > :24:01.suppose... I think both of them thought that there were things we
:24:02. > :24:06.could do, because obviously I am a Scottish Presbyterian so I
:24:07. > :24:10.understand the traditions of Northern Ireland, also I am a
:24:11. > :24:21.Scottish nationalist, but I remember once when I did a speech to the
:24:22. > :24:25.Senate instalment. And I was making pains not to upset anyone, but we
:24:26. > :24:32.had this great salvation of Celtic culture, and Scots - Irish culture,
:24:33. > :24:38.and in the Great Hall where we were sitting, they came in a pipe band to
:24:39. > :24:43.represent the Celtic culture and a flute band to represent the Scots
:24:44. > :24:49.culture. At that stage I may not have shaken hands with him in public
:24:50. > :24:57.before, and I said, why don't we get a picture with the drum? Our get the
:24:58. > :25:02.drum, and you get a drumstick in -- on either side. Fabulous picture.
:25:03. > :25:05.They were game, both of them, understanding the significance of
:25:06. > :25:11.beating the drum together. And the message it sent about accommodating
:25:12. > :25:21.the different strands and traditions of Northern Ireland. And you know,
:25:22. > :25:25.if I could be at all helpful to that process, they were very willing. It
:25:26. > :25:28.was a remarkable leap of faith -- faith, and the optimism of ten years
:25:29. > :25:33.ago is with us still. Martin McGuinness was to many
:25:34. > :25:35.people a divisive figure, someone linked inextricably
:25:36. > :25:36.to the IRA. At the same time, he had
:25:37. > :25:39.deep religious faith. With me now to look at those
:25:40. > :25:41.apparent contradictions, the Catholic Bishop of Derry,
:25:42. > :25:50.Dr Donal McKeown, and the former You are both very welcome to
:25:51. > :25:55.programme. Bishop, you presided at today's Requiem Mass. What did you
:25:56. > :26:03.make of who was there, and what we said? I have been here in Derry for
:26:04. > :26:07.three years, and what I have experienced in that short period of
:26:08. > :26:14.time after being in Belfast is a city that has been able to find
:26:15. > :26:17.peace in itself. I have been at the burning of Lundy, with the
:26:18. > :26:24.apprentice boys, and nobody uttered a word about presidents there. It is
:26:25. > :26:28.also a city that has come through many difficult time and seems to
:26:29. > :26:31.have found ways to handle bereavements, tragedies, death. I
:26:32. > :26:36.think it is a city with some sense of being together, and I think this
:26:37. > :26:40.is one more example of the ability to handle another big event and do
:26:41. > :26:44.it in a very understated, competent way. It is a city trying to find
:26:45. > :26:48.narratives about the past that will enable it to spring into the future
:26:49. > :26:52.rather than being dragged back constantly into an old story that is
:26:53. > :26:56.going round in circles. Gregory Campbell told they're about his
:26:57. > :27:02.concerns about Martin McGuinness being eulogised and lionised. Do you
:27:03. > :27:09.understand that? Of course, I was talking to a Catholic family
:27:10. > :27:13.yesterday, who these past two days were just suddenly swamped again by
:27:14. > :27:16.feelings about their own loss for 40 years ago at the hands of the IRA.
:27:17. > :27:21.So of course I recognise where people are, but I think we are
:27:22. > :27:23.living in a context where there are competing narratives, and what
:27:24. > :27:26.Martin McGuinness showed was that only by talking to other people and
:27:27. > :27:28.hearing their narratives, could we find some way to create a way
:27:29. > :27:41.forward. Why did you want to attend the
:27:42. > :27:47.Martin McGuinness's funeral service? I became involved in the peace work,
:27:48. > :27:54.as a result of seeing people close to me suffer from violence, and
:27:55. > :27:58.because of those injuries and wounds, I saw death. I mean a
:27:59. > :28:04.deliberate decision in my life that I would be working for peace, and
:28:05. > :28:10.part of that is trying to talk to people, so for 20 years I have been
:28:11. > :28:14.in touch with Martin, and we have not been meeting regularly, but we
:28:15. > :28:22.have been meeting consistently. That has given me the opportunity to
:28:23. > :28:25.challenge him. One of the meetings was after the ceasefire, with a lot
:28:26. > :28:31.of animosity from the Unionist Protestant community, but we
:28:32. > :28:34.engaged, and we challenged, and we tried to take apart any sort of
:28:35. > :28:42.sense that he had not contributed to the Troubles, and this went on, and
:28:43. > :28:46.I was able to ask questions about the Good Friday agreement. I said,
:28:47. > :28:51.Martin, in the back of your head, the top, the front, are you ever
:28:52. > :28:55.going to go back to violence if you do not get what you want, and he
:28:56. > :28:59.said I thought you would have known me better. I was not sure what that
:29:00. > :29:06.meant, but they took that positively, and since that it was
:29:07. > :29:13.confirmed. But some people believe it was not enough regret, I spoke to
:29:14. > :29:18.one victim of the Troubles, who said he will never look at Martin
:29:19. > :29:26.McGuinness as anything other than an unrepentant terrorist. He cannot get
:29:27. > :29:31.past his past. That is a position that you have got to respect. You
:29:32. > :29:37.have got to respect those views. I have been working with some from
:29:38. > :29:42.Loyalist backgrounds, and Republican backgrounds, I have tried to not
:29:43. > :29:45.travelling towards choosing to live the violence free life, becoming
:29:46. > :29:52.more inclusive. What I have discovered with people, if you keep
:29:53. > :29:58.ringing up the past, you undermine the capacity to embrace a new
:29:59. > :30:01.future. With Martin McGuinness, he had good commitments. Everybody
:30:02. > :30:10.knows that. And he was deeply committed to militant republican but
:30:11. > :30:13.then he moved to a deep commitment to peace and reconciliation. As a
:30:14. > :30:17.Christian, it is not always people just talking to me, changing my
:30:18. > :30:25.mind, even what they are thinking, but I watch their feet, the
:30:26. > :30:31.direction, and he gave up the belief of that armed struggle because it
:30:32. > :30:34.had lost its appeal to him. But once he embraced peace and
:30:35. > :30:41.reconciliation, he carried that to his grave. He took a lot of other
:30:42. > :30:47.things, but he had passion for this country that should be flourishing
:30:48. > :30:51.for everybody. I am here to express my condolences to the family, but
:30:52. > :30:57.also appreciate that people can change, and as a result of that, I
:30:58. > :31:00.give him the benefit of the doubt. Frankly, were you surprised that
:31:01. > :31:08.Arlene Foster got such a warm reception when she entered the
:31:09. > :31:13.church behind us this afternoon? I was delighted that happened, but
:31:14. > :31:17.having been here for three years, I was not terribly surprised. You have
:31:18. > :31:22.got graciousness in this city, people wanting to work together, and
:31:23. > :31:27.that sort of response cannot be faked. I was delighted that
:31:28. > :31:31.happened, and the credit it is going to give to the discussions at
:31:32. > :31:35.Stormont, but there was no surprised after spending time in this city.
:31:36. > :31:40.People want to create a better future. Forgiving people, in many
:31:41. > :31:42.ways. In all the tributes
:31:43. > :31:45.to Martin McGuinness, a recurring theme has been his love
:31:46. > :31:49.of the poetry of Seamus Heaney. He was a big fan of
:31:50. > :31:51.the Nobel Laureate, and Martin McGuinness often
:31:52. > :31:53.quoted him during his speeches. As Education Minister
:31:54. > :31:55.and Deputy First Minister, he met A number of them have been
:31:56. > :32:00.reflecting on his life and legacy, with our political correspondent
:32:01. > :32:10.Stephen Walker. In the story of Martin McGuinness,
:32:11. > :32:22.this building has a special place. This is the later where Martin
:32:23. > :32:25.McGuinness met the Queen. He felt comfortable here, and his love of
:32:26. > :32:35.Seamus Heaney and Portree meant that he spent a lot of time year. Many
:32:36. > :32:40.boards were his friends. When I learned several weeks ago that he
:32:41. > :32:49.was extremely ill, I was upset. And I wrote him a letter. And I thanked
:32:50. > :32:53.him for the grease and generosity of spirit that he had brought to the
:32:54. > :33:04.position of deputy Frost Minister. And I think I said that he was more
:33:05. > :33:07.than we deserve. And I said, it is something, I believed that it could
:33:08. > :33:15.not have been a peace process without Martin McGuinness. Michael
:33:16. > :33:22.Longley was also present when art and McGuinness met the Queen. I
:33:23. > :33:33.think she responded to the fact that he was unaffected. Straightforward.
:33:34. > :33:37.And sincere in his wish to shake hands, in that symbolic way. I think
:33:38. > :33:46.she was impressed by the symbolism of the occasion. Also, Glenn
:33:47. > :33:49.Patterson, director of the Seamus Heaney Centre, make Martin
:33:50. > :33:54.McGuinness on numerous occasions. Probably, I met him more often than
:33:55. > :34:05.any other politician over the years. I remember one occasion, at an arts
:34:06. > :34:15.Council conference, and he got out at one -- a poem of his own. Read
:34:16. > :34:25.it! Brave! I am told that is not the only occasion that he produced and
:34:26. > :34:28.rock to poems of his own. This journalist was at Queens University
:34:29. > :34:32.and is corruptly working on a book about the Sinn Fein president Gerry
:34:33. > :34:38.Adams. How does he think the former Deputy First Minister should be
:34:39. > :34:44.judged? The funeral is over. We have to be realistic. The historical
:34:45. > :34:50.record, that is optical parted, ruthless determined researchers,
:34:51. > :35:00.historians, academics. Let them get the story right. What will the
:35:01. > :35:06.political landscape look like? Sinn Fein have lost a leader, and someone
:35:07. > :35:09.who was central to the party. Lost probably the greatest figure that
:35:10. > :35:18.the Irish Republic and movement ever had. Nobody coming up to replace
:35:19. > :35:28.them. Not in the south, or. Gap at the leadership of Sinn Fein, very
:35:29. > :35:31.much as the day you pay after -- DUP after Ian Paisley. It is difficult
:35:32. > :35:35.to imagine political life without Martin McGuinness part we have got
:35:36. > :35:41.to. The desire for change has been a constant theme, just as it was with
:35:42. > :35:50.Seamus Heaney. People themselves must change. They must crawl out of
:35:51. > :35:55.their history. Historians will argue about the legacy of Martin
:35:56. > :36:07.McGuinness, the story that began in his home city and ended there today.
:36:08. > :36:14.I am joined by the journalist Susan McKay. Susan, you are from the city.
:36:15. > :36:18.You wrote the well-received book about Northern Protestants. You
:36:19. > :36:25.decided to come to the funeral. Why do you want to be here? I thought it
:36:26. > :36:29.was important, as somebody from Derry, to have been here. I would
:36:30. > :36:35.have shaken Martin McGuinness's has, in the city, when to do that as a
:36:36. > :36:40.Protestant, was to invite trouble from people like Gregory Campbell. I
:36:41. > :36:44.was dismayed by what Gregory said. I made it my business as afternoon
:36:45. > :36:49.after the funeral to go and talk to a number of people from the
:36:50. > :36:56.Protestant community. Generally, it was a consolidator rescinds, sorrow,
:36:57. > :37:00.a lot of Protestant people say to me that the pot Martin McGuinness had
:37:01. > :37:04.changed, and made good change. I think it is really important that we
:37:05. > :37:12.looked at the fact that for example during the fight that during the
:37:13. > :37:20.ceremonies, many things were quartered. And the passage about a
:37:21. > :37:27.time for more, please. A lot of warfare, perpetrated by the Unionist
:37:28. > :37:31.community. And the duty was associated in the past with loyalist
:37:32. > :37:35.paramilitary. It is not just one-sided, it is not just Martin
:37:36. > :37:43.McGuinness who has a past of violence and it is more important to
:37:44. > :37:46.look at where we go now, rather than looking back to something that
:37:47. > :37:52.neither of the DUP and Sinn Fein has acted credibly. The DUP would say it
:37:53. > :37:56.has never supported paramilitary is. Ian Paisley has been clear about
:37:57. > :38:02.that. Closely associated with loyalist paramilitaries, much
:38:03. > :38:11.evidence of that. But today is a dignified death for Derry. What did
:38:12. > :38:18.you make of today? I think it was very dignified. A lot of respect.
:38:19. > :38:21.People behaved in a completely dignified way. And the importance of
:38:22. > :38:26.Arlene Foster to come here, it cannot have been an easy decision, I
:38:27. > :38:30.am sure she was filled with apprehension, but the rapture that
:38:31. > :38:36.she received, she was mentioned three times, the warmth to which she
:38:37. > :38:41.was received, people shaking her hand. That symbolically as
:38:42. > :38:46.important. Game changer? I do not know but it changes the mood, going
:38:47. > :38:49.to go into talks in a completely different context, and it is
:38:50. > :38:54.important, and I think she has been the subject of a great deal of
:38:55. > :38:59.criticism but today she got the warm welcome. It is important to
:39:00. > :39:03.acknowledge that. I think that if she had not come to date would have
:39:04. > :39:06.been absolutely outrageous. It makes it difficult for the DUP with
:39:07. > :39:18.another election, because they did that on the basis of the bogey men.
:39:19. > :39:23.Reconciliation was the scene today. And you have got the thirst in this
:39:24. > :39:24.community. People do not want to dwell on the past.
:39:25. > :39:27.That's it from The View this Thursday night.
:39:28. > :39:32.Join me for Sunday Politics, at 11.35 here on BBC One.
:39:33. > :39:41.For now though, from the walls of Derry, goodnight.