:00:00. > :00:11.The negotiations between the Conservatives and the DUP drag on as
:00:12. > :00:16.the Stormont deadline looms large, tonight, as London hesitates, is the
:00:17. > :00:37.future of devolution being put in jeopardy? Tonight, on The View.
:00:38. > :00:43.The Queen's speech has come and gone but there is still no deal at
:00:44. > :00:48.Westminster, as the DUP overplayed its hand with the Conservatives,
:00:49. > :00:51.with talk of a wish list priced in the billions? That kind of money is
:00:52. > :00:57.not on the table, that suggests to me, whether it was and ask or not
:00:58. > :01:00.and ask, it is not going to be there. What is the opposition make
:01:01. > :01:04.of it, I am going to be speaking live with Stephen Pound of the
:01:05. > :01:08.Labour Party. -- an ask. My ministers will continue to invest in
:01:09. > :01:12.the gallant Armed Forces, and deliver on the Armed Forces covenant
:01:13. > :01:15.across the United Kingdom. Good news for veterans perhaps but some
:01:16. > :01:20.victims groups are less than happy, we will hear both sides of the
:01:21. > :01:26.argument. And a light-hearted look at the DUP for our friends across
:01:27. > :01:30.the water. Very partial to a flag... And a march(!) and socially, very
:01:31. > :01:41.conservative... And resented commentators corner, two guests
:01:42. > :01:44.tonight. -- returning. Negotiations continue at Westminster and at
:01:45. > :01:50.Stormont, the mood music coming from both sets of talks changes by the
:01:51. > :01:53.day, the DUP warned the Tories it is no pushover, at Stormont, Sinn Fein
:01:54. > :01:57.says there has not been meaningful engagement for a deal to be done by
:01:58. > :02:01.this time next week. One thing that is clear, the parties at Stormont
:02:02. > :02:04.want to see the details of any agreement between the DUP and the
:02:05. > :02:08.Conservative Party before they make a last push to get the instead you
:02:09. > :02:12.shinty up and running again. Tonight, the DUP executive has been
:02:13. > :02:23.in East Belfast as the talks continue in London. -- to get the
:02:24. > :02:29.institution up and running again. It is a work in progress, both parties
:02:30. > :02:32.making optimistic noises that a deal could be struck and we would go
:02:33. > :02:36.public next week, I spoke with a number of conservatives today, they
:02:37. > :02:43.said the talks were going well, the process has had up days and down
:02:44. > :02:46.days, today is probably an update. The DUP were similarly optimistic.
:02:47. > :02:50.Earlier we heard from Jeffrey Donaldson and we heard from Simon
:02:51. > :02:54.Hamilton, talking in optimistic terms. Work in progress, both
:02:55. > :03:00.parties confident a deal can be struck next week. As we speak, still
:03:01. > :03:08.no agreement, we have heard the Queen's speech. And at one stage it
:03:09. > :03:12.was a deadline. I understand there was a meeting between the two
:03:13. > :03:15.parties and I understand the meeting between the Conservatives and the
:03:16. > :03:17.DUP went well but also in the Queen's speech, we heard about the
:03:18. > :03:21.military covenant, which is something that the DUP had been
:03:22. > :03:24.campaigning for, they are delighted it is in the Queen's speech,
:03:25. > :03:28.delighted that the military covenant will apply to Northern Ireland, and
:03:29. > :03:35.it shows closeness between the two parties. I suppose, that is the
:03:36. > :03:39.first public acknowledgement, a public concession to the DUP in
:03:40. > :03:44.terms of this arrangement. What do you think rank-and-file Tories make
:03:45. > :03:47.of what is going on? Well, different Tories will tell you different
:03:48. > :03:52.things, mixed views within the Conservative Party, I suppose you
:03:53. > :03:54.could split them into two camps, the realists and the sceptics, the
:03:55. > :04:00.realists within the Conservative Party will say, we have to do a deal
:04:01. > :04:05.to stay in power, the two parties are close on things like law and
:04:06. > :04:08.order and defence and the union and the DUP and the Conservatives want
:04:09. > :04:13.to keep Jeremy Corbyn out of number ten. The realists except there must
:04:14. > :04:17.be some money or something in it for the DUP. Sceptics have concerns
:04:18. > :04:21.about this deal, they have concerns because they are not so sure how
:04:22. > :04:24.long this will last and because they have worries over some of the DUP
:04:25. > :04:29.policies, particularly their policies over things like gay rights
:04:30. > :04:33.and abortion. And the sceptics are particularly concerned about the
:04:34. > :04:37.kind of money that is being talked about in the past few days. The
:04:38. > :04:42.figure of 2 billion was given to the BBC from a key source. Other media
:04:43. > :04:46.outlets had it, although the figures had been questioned by the DUP. It
:04:47. > :04:49.is that figure of 2 billion that is worrying people within the
:04:50. > :04:54.Conservative Party, they want to know what will that mean in other
:04:55. > :04:58.parts of the United Kingdom? The key question is, what do senior Tories
:04:59. > :05:02.think, what exactly is going on in the Conservative Party. To get an
:05:03. > :05:05.idea of what the Tories are thinking, I have been speaking to
:05:06. > :05:11.Iain Duncan Smith, former leader of the Conservative Party, I asked him
:05:12. > :05:14.if he thought a deal would happen soon. I think they have made
:05:15. > :05:20.progress, it is highly likely that we will have an arrangement, with
:05:21. > :05:25.the DUP, and the Conservative Party, certainly before the votes that come
:05:26. > :05:30.on Wednesday and Thursday. Why has it taken so long? I don't really
:05:31. > :05:34.have an answer to that question other than, these things are all
:05:35. > :05:39.about who thinks they need what and how it will work. They're in mind,
:05:40. > :05:44.this is not an alliance, it is not a coalition, simply what they call a
:05:45. > :05:48.supply in covenant, supply their votes for key elements of our
:05:49. > :05:51.legislation, on a UK wide basis, and if there is a vote of confidence or
:05:52. > :05:55.whatever. -- bear in mind. To support us in that, other than that,
:05:56. > :05:59.other stuff is parties going their own separate ways. If you give
:06:00. > :06:03.Northern Ireland millions of pounds, how do you justify that to other
:06:04. > :06:07.parts of the UK? There have always been exceptional payments to
:06:08. > :06:11.different parts of the UK. The city deals, for example, the city deals
:06:12. > :06:15.put money into cities in different regions without any kind of buyer or
:06:16. > :06:22.leave to others that did not get it. As go, Cardiff. Towns in northern
:06:23. > :06:25.England got city deal money. I was part of that, huge injection of
:06:26. > :06:29.money but it was done without any reference to whether or not there
:06:30. > :06:34.was fairness about this, it was done reflecting the needs of the cities.
:06:35. > :06:38.This is not unusual and doesn't invoke the Barnett Formula, which is
:06:39. > :06:42.advisory, anyway. Two weeks since the election, these talks have
:06:43. > :06:47.dragged on and on, claims from the DUP side and the Conservative side
:06:48. > :06:50.that respect has not been given, that people have not been answering
:06:51. > :06:54.their phones, and all kinds of things have gone on. Is that the
:06:55. > :06:59.real reason why there has been a delay? That there has been bad
:07:00. > :07:02.feeling on both sides? This is no doubt a negotiation and they always
:07:03. > :07:09.have their moments, they have their moments of theoretical breakdown.
:07:10. > :07:13.This is a deal which is wholly doable in the interest of the United
:07:14. > :07:16.Kingdom. They support the government on key objectives, they want to get
:07:17. > :07:20.the Queen's speech through, they support us completely on the
:07:21. > :07:24.European settlement, out of the single market, controller borders,
:07:25. > :07:27.out of the customs union. They want that and want to know how the border
:07:28. > :07:31.will lie with Southern Ireland. All these things are part of the
:07:32. > :07:35.negotiation. I genuinely believe from contact with DUP colleagues,
:07:36. > :07:40.members of Parliament, who I get on well with, as we all do, they are
:07:41. > :07:43.assuring me that there will be a deal that allows them to vote with
:07:44. > :07:48.us in the Queen's speech. If you do a deal with the DUP, surely it means
:07:49. > :07:52.you cannot be impartial when it comes to Northern Ireland? No,
:07:53. > :07:55.because this is about the United Kingdom. We are not going to do any
:07:56. > :07:59.agreement on the devolved administration in terms of how that
:08:00. > :08:05.is run or in terms of the peace process. That is set. It is
:08:06. > :08:10.interesting to note... You will not be seen as impartial. We will be
:08:11. > :08:13.impartial, clearly, let's put it like that, the Northern Ireland
:08:14. > :08:17.Office is set up to make sure that the Secretary of State is not able
:08:18. > :08:22.to take partiality. Surely that will mean the Secretary of State will end
:08:23. > :08:26.up with half an eye on Westminster. No, he's not meant to, he will be
:08:27. > :08:29.looking at how he gets the parties back together again to be able to
:08:30. > :08:35.get the devolved administration running. What you know is, a deep
:08:36. > :08:39.reluctance from this government, to have any direct control over
:08:40. > :08:42.Northern Ireland. We want them to get the devolved administration
:08:43. > :08:47.going. It is in our interests to be clear that we want the resettlement.
:08:48. > :08:52.Is there a danger that you are looking at devolution coming back?
:08:53. > :08:54.Not at all, because it is in our direct interest from Westminster,
:08:55. > :08:59.direct interest of the United Kingdom, to have that settlement
:09:00. > :09:02.re-established, and for the administration to get together again
:09:03. > :09:05.and be formed and for those parties to get on with governing Northern
:09:06. > :09:09.Ireland. It is not in the UK Government's interest and not in the
:09:10. > :09:14.interest of the DUP, to be frank, for this to go on much longer. Sinn
:09:15. > :09:20.Fein and the DUP must settle this issue and get on with it. On that
:09:21. > :09:23.matter, the government is absolutely impartial, it wants them to come
:09:24. > :09:25.together. If they do not settle if themselves, no amount of pressure
:09:26. > :09:29.from the government will change that, they have two settlement and
:09:30. > :09:36.that is why we will remain impartial. -- they have to settle
:09:37. > :09:39.it. The military covenant, sell it to nationals. It is clear, we want
:09:40. > :09:42.to support and look after our members of the military while they
:09:43. > :09:46.serve, after they serve, I was in the military myself and even served
:09:47. > :09:50.in Northern Ireland. My sense about this is that it is the right thing
:09:51. > :09:54.to do and everybody wants to support it. I cannot think why anybody would
:09:55. > :09:58.not want to support it. That is my position and the position of the
:09:59. > :10:01.DUP, we have an eye on that but we will not change it. Is there a
:10:02. > :10:08.danger of creating a hierarchy, veterans given preferential
:10:09. > :10:11.treatment? No, United Kingdom supports its Armed Forces who do
:10:12. > :10:14.their jobs as a result of command from politicians, it is our job to
:10:15. > :10:19.support them. Look after their needs and make sure they get the right and
:10:20. > :10:23.fair deal, all the way through their lives, that is only fair.
:10:24. > :10:27.Interesting to hear the thoughts of Iain Duncan Smith. We have got two
:10:28. > :10:32.talks process is going on, side-by-side. He referred to that.
:10:33. > :10:36.Are they separate, are they link? Undoubtedly, they are linked, no one
:10:37. > :10:41.in Belfast is going to agree a deal until they see the colour of the
:10:42. > :10:46.deal here at Westminster. Likewise, if the DUP do pull this deal off,
:10:47. > :10:49.and there are going to be result from that, they can turn to the
:10:50. > :10:54.parties in Belfast and say, let's get devolution up and running, look
:10:55. > :10:57.at the great deal we have secured, millions for ex, millions for wife.
:10:58. > :11:00.Those are the kind of things that are going on at the moment but no
:11:01. > :11:05.doubt about it, the two processes are inexorably linked. -- by. -- y.
:11:06. > :11:11.Next we will have a very busy week next week, votes on the Queen's
:11:12. > :11:15.speech, debate taking place on Tuesday and Wednesday and a big vote
:11:16. > :11:19.on Thursday, and Thursday is the deadline for Stormont. We have the
:11:20. > :11:24.deadline on Thursday for Stormont, amidst all this, we are expecting a
:11:25. > :11:28.DUP Tory deal sometime in the middle of the week. OK, we will see how it
:11:29. > :11:34.pans out. Thank you very much for joining us. A lot has been written
:11:35. > :11:40.and said here and in Britain about what the DUP could be asking for. We
:11:41. > :11:50.asked economics and business editor John Campbell to take a closer look.
:11:51. > :11:58.VOICEOVER: Extraordinarily election, and now, extraordinary negotiation,
:11:59. > :11:59.the DUP find themselves across the table from a weakened Prime
:12:00. > :12:13.Minister. Talking has been going on for two
:12:14. > :12:18.weeks, but what is the DUP demanding in return for its support?
:12:19. > :12:26.Conveniently, the DUP have written down much of what they want, it is
:12:27. > :12:30.spread across two documents, a 2015 plan, prepared in anticipation of a
:12:31. > :12:36.hung parliament, and a 2017 Westminster manifesto. The major
:12:37. > :12:42.request concerns public services and taxation. The very first item in the
:12:43. > :12:49.2015 plan, a call for more satisfactory terms in relation to
:12:50. > :12:54.corporation tax. The law around corporation tax devolution was
:12:55. > :12:58.passed back in 2015 but needs Treasury approval to go ahead. There
:12:59. > :13:03.is the thorny issue of the cost. Cutting a tax here will mean that we
:13:04. > :13:08.collect less money for the revenue. As a result, the Treasury will want
:13:09. > :13:13.to cut the block grant by a corresponding amount. Likely to be
:13:14. > :13:18.at least ?100 million. It is the sight of that hit to the block grant
:13:19. > :13:24.which is now up for discussion. The DUP will be looking for a reduced
:13:25. > :13:30.cost for achieving corporation tax. A lower hit to the block grant, if
:13:31. > :13:32.you like, to make it much more affordable from a Northern Ireland
:13:33. > :13:38.perspective. Similar story when it comes to air passenger duty,
:13:39. > :13:41.effectively, a ?13 tax applied to every passenger on flights out of
:13:42. > :13:46.Northern Ireland. Local airports have lobbied against it. The DUP
:13:47. > :13:53.manifesto calls for its abolition, saying it would attract new routes
:13:54. > :13:58.and tourists. The man who led a study of the tax two years ago found
:13:59. > :14:04.that abolishing it would mean a ?55 million hit to the block grant. In
:14:05. > :14:08.economic terms, a tax cut which would bring no overall benefits to
:14:09. > :14:14.Northern Ireland. If the price tag falls, it is a different story. The
:14:15. > :14:16.DUP will be looking to look at the special circumstances that Northern
:14:17. > :14:22.Ireland faces in terms of sharing a land border with a jurisdiction
:14:23. > :14:25.which did not have APD at all and use those special circumstances to
:14:26. > :14:31.justify a lower rate, a lower APD rate in Northern Ireland and if we
:14:32. > :14:36.can reduce the cost of the block grant, from a reduction in APD then
:14:37. > :14:41.the economics of it way up much more favourably. The health service is
:14:42. > :14:46.also featuring, it consumes about half of Stormont's ?10 billion
:14:47. > :14:51.annual budget. It is under pressure with ever-growing waiting lists.
:14:52. > :14:56.Westminster sources have told the BBC that the DUP once a cash
:14:57. > :14:59.injection of up to ?1 billion. That would have a major impact within a
:15:00. > :15:04.matter of months. Ultimately, a one-off lump of money will not solve
:15:05. > :15:08.the structural problems in the health service. It is already
:15:09. > :15:15.suffering from budgets which have become reliant on bits of one of or
:15:16. > :15:18.non-recurrent funding. Yes, you can do things on waiting lists and
:15:19. > :15:24.reduce the waiting times, but ultimately, would you fix the drive
:15:25. > :15:29.of -- driver that is causing it? No, no amount of money is going to fix
:15:30. > :15:33.that. The DUP have also emphasised the need to spend on infrastructure,
:15:34. > :15:39.hangs like roads, the energy grid and broadband. Again, indications of
:15:40. > :15:41.up to ?1 billion being asked for, although the DUP has played that
:15:42. > :15:50.figure down. Economists think the spending should
:15:51. > :15:56.help improve our economic performance. When it comes to local
:15:57. > :16:02.politics, the money is likely to be the easier part of whatever the DUP
:16:03. > :16:05.agrees. The other parties are not likely to complain too much if it
:16:06. > :16:10.means lots of money for the local economy. What could be more
:16:11. > :16:14.difficult is an agreement which brings us more into political
:16:15. > :16:18.territory, like Sinn Fein's Westminster alliances, the flying of
:16:19. > :16:29.flags, or even how we deal with the past. John Campbell reporting. Of
:16:30. > :16:34.course, the Labour Party has been critical of attempts to agree a deal
:16:35. > :16:38.between the Tories and the DUP. Jeremy Corbyn famously referred to
:16:39. > :16:42.it as a potential coalition of chaos. A former Labour shadow
:16:43. > :16:50.Northern Ireland minister joins me now, Stephen Pound. I still am the
:16:51. > :16:59.shadow Northern Ireland minister! You still are, I apologise! Do you
:17:00. > :17:03.accept that it is perfectly reasonable for the Tories and the
:17:04. > :17:07.DUP to do a deal to keep Theresa May in No 10? Of course it is entirely
:17:08. > :17:14.up to them. I think it is fascinating, something I have never
:17:15. > :17:20.heard of before, but the Barnett Formula is advisory! For years and
:17:21. > :17:24.years, we've been told that that is the basis for funding the regions of
:17:25. > :17:28.the United Kingdom. If it is now advisory and if the DUP had I think
:17:29. > :17:32.it was 1 billion for health in the manifesto, and another billion for
:17:33. > :17:37.infrastructure, then I have to say there is a deal to be done which I
:17:38. > :17:39.suppose the point being made was that there is a difference between
:17:40. > :17:44.the day-to-day block grant and how it is divvied up and then these
:17:45. > :17:50.particular, specific issues, which may arise from time to time, as far
:17:51. > :17:53.as one-off payments are concerned, which is why the Barnett Formula
:17:54. > :17:59.does not cover this kind of payment, if it happens. Quite simply, if you
:18:00. > :18:03.are increasing payments, and I think Iain Duncan Smith was talking about
:18:04. > :18:09.city funding, Northern Ireland is a special case. There is no other part
:18:10. > :18:18.of the United Kingdom like it, you can always make a special case. The
:18:19. > :18:24.key thing is, we are now in the most important seven days, the pages are
:18:25. > :18:31.fluttering off the calendar as we get closer to next Thursday. We hear
:18:32. > :18:36.that multilateral talks will possibly take place in Belfast
:18:37. > :18:39.tomorrow, and then the clock really starts ticking on Monday, when I
:18:40. > :18:43.think the deal will be done. We will come to that in a second, but if
:18:44. > :18:48.there is a deal done, where hundreds of millions of pounds, potentially
:18:49. > :18:52.up to ?2 billion of extra money, is given to Northern Ireland, to deal
:18:53. > :18:56.with underfunding in terms of infrastructure and our creaking
:18:57. > :19:02.health system, would you support that would you it in Westminster? I
:19:03. > :19:05.want to see the detail. Theresa May promised last week there would be
:19:06. > :19:10.full transparency. I want to see the details. Every single party in
:19:11. > :19:16.Northern Ireland needs to see the details. We are hearing this figure,
:19:17. > :19:24.but I want to see the full details, which we must have, we must have
:19:25. > :19:29.transparency. Does it look like pork barrel politics to you? It doesn't
:19:30. > :19:33.do me. You can say that, but of the money goes where it is needed. And
:19:34. > :19:39.you cannot deny the special circumstances of Northern Ireland,
:19:40. > :19:43.and the DUP are doing after all what force and elected to do. The DUP
:19:44. > :19:51.says it wants to active in the national interest, it does not want
:19:52. > :19:55.to active in a partisan way. It wants to look at issues like
:19:56. > :19:59.supporting the Government on racks, backing the Armed Forces,
:20:00. > :20:02.strengthening security, and still dealing with historic underfunding
:20:03. > :20:06.in Northern Ireland, as it sees its. If people in Northern Ireland
:20:07. > :20:09.benefit from it and things are balanced up a bit better, for a
:20:10. > :20:13.relatively small amount of money in the overall budget, what is wrong
:20:14. > :20:22.with that? I'm agreeing with you but I want to see the exact detail. We
:20:23. > :20:27.all know that cheese for two dependent on two or three particular
:20:28. > :20:35.industries. Let's get some infrastructure development money
:20:36. > :20:39.into there. The Labour Party is supporting, obviously, the return of
:20:40. > :20:43.the institutions and Stormont, we want to see it back up and running,
:20:44. > :20:47.but we know there is a vote on Wednesday night, the key vote on the
:20:48. > :20:50.Queen's Speech on Thursday, and Northern Ireland questions coming up
:20:51. > :20:55.as well. The clock is ticking. You mentioned the possibility of talks
:20:56. > :20:58.taking place in Belfast over the weekend - the Government is very
:20:59. > :21:04.clear, Iain Duncan Smith could not have been more clear, on behalf of
:21:05. > :21:07.the Conservative Party, its impartiality in the Stormont talks,
:21:08. > :21:11.not compromised one iota by these negotiations, do you accept that? I
:21:12. > :21:20.find that almost an impossible position to justify. I think it is
:21:21. > :21:26.going to be profoundly difficult. I think there has to be implicitly and
:21:27. > :21:31.explicitly within any agreement made, it has to be spelt out how the
:21:32. > :21:33.Government, as one of the Koh guarantors of the Good Friday
:21:34. > :21:37.Agreement, can be completely impartial on this one. I am not
:21:38. > :21:41.saying it is not impossible, but it is going to be very difficult and we
:21:42. > :21:47.have to see the detail. Thank you very much for joining us. The DUP
:21:48. > :21:50.has claimed the Government has agreed to improve the treatment of
:21:51. > :21:55.military veterans in Northern Ireland as part of any agreement for
:21:56. > :21:59.the party's support. Iain Duncan Smith referred to it earlier. The
:22:00. > :22:03.party has pointed to a section of the Queen's Speech yesterday,
:22:04. > :22:12.claiming it committed to seeing the covenant implemented all over the
:22:13. > :22:14.UK. Welcome to you both. The DUP is claiming it was responsible for that
:22:15. > :22:19.paragraph in the Queen's Speech about ensuring the military covenant
:22:20. > :22:25.is extended to Northern Ireland - do you welcome that? Very much so. It
:22:26. > :22:29.has been a low-level unionist demand for years, and it has suddenly come
:22:30. > :22:34.to the surface. And I think it is really significant as a statement of
:22:35. > :22:38.intent for two reasons. The first is that some of these reports about the
:22:39. > :22:41.money, of course they're going to try and get some more money and we
:22:42. > :22:45.would all welcome that, have been quite alarming. Reports of Downing
:22:46. > :22:49.Street phone calls not being answered and so on. They may or may
:22:50. > :22:54.not be correct. What we don't want is the rest of the UK to think that
:22:55. > :22:58.Northern Ireland is just take, take, take, but it is give-and-take. Since
:22:59. > :23:01.the creation of Northern Ireland, we have obviously contributed to the
:23:02. > :23:07.Armed Forces, most notably during the Second World War. So I think
:23:08. > :23:12.that that's significant. The other thing that I think is significant
:23:13. > :23:17.about this is that this is a move towards the DUP beginning to make
:23:18. > :23:19.demands. However, we ended up in this situation, where Sinn Fein can
:23:20. > :23:26.have long lists of demands, it is almost a defeatist mindset? Unionism
:23:27. > :23:29.has not been making demands. This is a very reasonable demand Kirkuk
:23:30. > :23:35.you've got serious reservations, on the other hand, why so? What we're
:23:36. > :23:39.seeing is a situation where one group of victims are going to be
:23:40. > :23:44.elevated with their needs above all others. We have committed as a
:23:45. > :23:47.society since to a process under the Stormont agreement, where we will
:23:48. > :23:52.endeavour to meet the differing needs of victims of society. And
:23:53. > :23:59.this is a unilateral move to say, these set of victims are more
:24:00. > :24:02.important than others, and it feeds a narrative which says that the
:24:03. > :24:07.British state is really in denial of its role in the conflict, in denial
:24:08. > :24:11.of its role in ensuring that the Stormont agreement mechanisms
:24:12. > :24:14.happen, and that they have been at the heart of the problems in the
:24:15. > :24:18.information of the Stormont house agreement. It really comes together
:24:19. > :24:23.to give you one broad picture. Doesn't it simply balance up and
:24:24. > :24:27.bring into line the position of veterans in Northern Ireland
:24:28. > :24:32.compared to the rest of the United Kingdom? What it does is, it ignores
:24:33. > :24:36.the legacy of British state violence and collusion in this part of the
:24:37. > :24:40.world. It ignores that they have had a significant role and they were one
:24:41. > :24:45.of the combatants to the conflict. And that we as a society are trying
:24:46. > :24:49.to work our way through that. We recognise all victims, all of the
:24:50. > :24:53.combatants, and that they all have obligations to restore the dignity
:24:54. > :24:56.of truth, justice and reparation to the victims that live here. And
:24:57. > :25:00.instead we are renovating one section above the others. So it
:25:01. > :25:08.creates a hierarchy of victims? It is definitely a sensitive thing. We
:25:09. > :25:12.are going to have irreconcilably different views of the legacy of the
:25:13. > :25:15.security forces. I think that they acted with extraordinary restraint
:25:16. > :25:18.overall and that they prevented civil war, but we are not going to
:25:19. > :25:22.agree on that, we should not even try to agree on that. But I think
:25:23. > :25:26.there is not much opposition from Republicans and there is none,
:25:27. > :25:28.essentially, to the fact that there are servicemen and women today
:25:29. > :25:34.losing their limbs in other parts of the world in the British forces,
:25:35. > :25:39.here, northern Irish people, that is. So I think we really ought to be
:25:40. > :25:43.able to agree about this. It is a fundamental thing that somebody who
:25:44. > :25:47.risks their life for their country should be very well treated by that
:25:48. > :25:55.society, particularly the 21st century. Western society, we have
:25:56. > :25:58.had appalling tragedies... For example, the MOD, to make sure that
:25:59. > :26:01.veterans who are injured are properly treated, but budget should
:26:02. > :26:08.come from the MOD rather than the Department of Health? Why can't we
:26:09. > :26:11.do...? I was in America a few months ago and we had to wait while
:26:12. > :26:15.military veterans boarded the plane first, disabled people. Why can't we
:26:16. > :26:19.have the same arrangement as the rest of the UK? There is a thing
:26:20. > :26:23.that I think Republicans have to accept, they can't turn Northern
:26:24. > :26:27.Ireland into a neutral place, where the only British aspect is that
:26:28. > :26:32.Britain pays the bills. There are consequences that come from us being
:26:33. > :26:34.in the UK, and this is a totally reasonable consequence, looking
:26:35. > :26:37.after our veterans the Government do you believe that you've got
:26:38. > :26:41.irreconcilable differences, or is there perhaps a bit of common ground
:26:42. > :26:45.somewhere? I don't think anyone would deny that people who have lost
:26:46. > :26:50.limbs or need to have equal access to appropriate care... But isn't
:26:51. > :26:53.this all about that? It isn't, because we're saying there should be
:26:54. > :26:56.one group of people who should be fast tracked into that care. People
:26:57. > :27:01.who are arguing for a pension for the injured of the conflict, who
:27:02. > :27:04.have really been treated very shabbily, if they saw one group
:27:05. > :27:08.being further accelerated into a special scheme, that would really
:27:09. > :27:13.cause harm. What has to be remembered is that when people at
:27:14. > :27:19.home and have been harmed see that there is a group of victims being
:27:20. > :27:25.elevated for special status, it isn't that those people don't
:27:26. > :27:28.deserve support, whether it is for PTSD or physical needs, whatever, it
:27:29. > :27:34.is that everyone needs an equal playing field. No-one won this
:27:35. > :27:38.conflict. With all need to engage in the processes of dealing with the
:27:39. > :27:42.past. And the British state has to stop pretending that it was neutral
:27:43. > :27:45.in this place and that they have questions to answer. Right now they
:27:46. > :27:53.are not even delivering truth and justice. And then put that alongside
:27:54. > :27:56.impunity, put that alongside this very remarkable statement by Iain
:27:57. > :28:00.Duncan Smith tonight, where he completely ignores the fact that
:28:01. > :28:05.they were players in this conflict. And I think you have a very
:28:06. > :28:09.distressing situation. Until these issues of legacy are resolved, this
:28:10. > :28:12.kind of issue, whether or not the military government should be
:28:13. > :28:15.extended to veterans in Northern Ireland, is going to continue to be
:28:16. > :28:20.a major sticking point? I think that's right. And I certainly
:28:21. > :28:25.wouldn't deny the sensitivities of its. There are a lot of... Do you
:28:26. > :28:29.have any sympathy for that position? I have a lot of sympathy for the
:28:30. > :28:33.fact that there are some people who are going to be hostile for the
:28:34. > :28:37.British army, for many decades to come. People who were harmed by
:28:38. > :28:41.them. The highest number of killings by the British army was before 1973,
:28:42. > :28:45.when the state didn't really know what it was doing, and when we were
:28:46. > :28:52.on the verge of civil war. That's 45 years ago now. And I think that...
:28:53. > :28:55.This kind of thing would have been extremely difficult, all sorts of
:28:56. > :29:00.things would have been unthinkable, decades ago. So I think now, well
:29:01. > :29:06.into the 21st century, this is the time to do this the Government final
:29:07. > :29:09.sentence? The British Government are signatories to large, international
:29:10. > :29:14.conventions on the delivery of rights to victims and survivors, and
:29:15. > :29:18.they are sidestepping it and ignoring it. Thank you overview very
:29:19. > :29:24.much for coming in. Let's find out what our commentators think about
:29:25. > :29:26.what we have been discussing. Listening intently have been Newton
:29:27. > :29:32.Emerson and Professor Deirdre Heenan. Let's talk about Westminster
:29:33. > :29:36.first of all. Do you think that a deal at Westminster between the DUP
:29:37. > :29:39.and the Conservatives is inevitable at this stage? I think it's
:29:40. > :29:44.inevitable, I think it was interesting listening to Iain Duncan
:29:45. > :29:48.Smith saying that the deal doesn't matter in terms of devolved issues,
:29:49. > :29:53.it doesn't impact on neutrality. But many of the issues that are being
:29:54. > :29:57.talked about R devolved issues - housing, health, in particular. And
:29:58. > :30:03.I was struck by what John said, regardless of whether it is ?1
:30:04. > :30:06.billion or ?2 billion, if this money is not transformational money, money
:30:07. > :30:11.to make our system sustainable, then all we are doing is delaying the
:30:12. > :30:16.problems for a short period of time. I think if money is coming to
:30:17. > :30:19.Northern Ireland, there has to be a can that the report is implemented,
:30:20. > :30:23.that we look at our education system, we look at the empty desks,
:30:24. > :30:27.we look at reconfiguring the services, rather than putting more
:30:28. > :30:30.money into a system that's broken. What did you make of Iain Duncan
:30:31. > :30:35.Smith's comments that the Barnett Formula does not apply? Well, he's
:30:36. > :30:40.going to have to say that. Is he right? It is a convention, it is not
:30:41. > :30:44.a law. If we were to observe the convention, everyone pounds extra
:30:45. > :30:54.spent here would mean 35 has to be found for the rest of the UK. Of
:30:55. > :30:57.course, they can get around it. Do you think that the DUP has
:30:58. > :31:04.potentially overplayed its hand in these negotiations? It has, that is
:31:05. > :31:10.undoubtedly true. People were starting to talk in the party about
:31:11. > :31:23.how much they really need a deal. I think they will come home with a bag
:31:24. > :31:26.of money, certainly. Do you think, everybody is talking about ?2
:31:27. > :31:31.billion, now we are told that maybe it is more like ?750 million? We are
:31:32. > :31:38.hearing all sorts of things, but the reality is, everybody knows that the
:31:39. > :31:42.DUP do not want Jeremy Corbyn in No 10, so in reality, they will
:31:43. > :31:46.probably support the Tories. To the Tories need them? I don't think they
:31:47. > :31:50.do. It would be nice to know they are there, but the reality is, there
:31:51. > :31:53.can vote with them. The thing is, if they bring home the money, we need a
:31:54. > :31:57.devolved government to administer the money, otherwise what happens,
:31:58. > :32:01.British ministers decide where the money is going to go? I think it was
:32:02. > :32:07.John Major who brought this up, whether or not the Tories in fact
:32:08. > :32:11.need the DUP, it seems it had not really crossed their minds after
:32:12. > :32:15.that point? Well, they do need them to get through one vote after
:32:16. > :32:25.another. The DUP can make life very difficult for the Tories. She can
:32:26. > :32:28.make the Tories' life miserable, is a time when they do not have the
:32:29. > :32:32.time or the energy to put up with it. So, they have the capacity to
:32:33. > :32:38.extract something from the Government. Yeah, because it is a
:32:39. > :32:44.vote-by-vote basis, there can be a thorn in their side throughout the
:32:45. > :32:48.process. I think the difficulty is, we've heard so much, and we're told
:32:49. > :32:54.that these two recesses aren't linked - they clearly are. I would
:32:55. > :32:57.have thought they would be saying to the DUP, it is your responsibility
:32:58. > :33:02.to get back to Northern Ireland and get those devolved structures up and
:33:03. > :33:04.working recovered as all of this leave the Stormont negotiations?
:33:05. > :33:10.Back where they were originally, I think, with a deal likely in the
:33:11. > :33:12.autumn. No chance for next week? I would have thought that was
:33:13. > :33:17.completely impossible. They're talking to nitrogen they have to say
:33:18. > :33:21.that there's some hope, but why would you rush to deal when there is
:33:22. > :33:25.so much up in the air London? Why would you bend over backwards to get
:33:26. > :33:31.Stormont up and running next week, when it is about 2-shot for two
:33:32. > :33:36.months? The focus is on London, and that is understandable. But our
:33:37. > :33:39.waiting lists are getting longer, we have the worst child health in
:33:40. > :33:43.Europe, and everything that needs to be addressed is again not addressed.
:33:44. > :33:47.It is very interesting, all of this, and we have another programme to
:33:48. > :33:53.look at it in more detail next Thursday night. That's it from The
:33:54. > :33:58.View this week. Join me for Sunday Politics. Now that the DUP is in the
:33:59. > :34:02.UK spotlight, our colleagues on the one Show decided to give viewers
:34:03. > :34:09.across the water a different take. Thanks for watching. Good night. DUP
:34:10. > :34:14.voters are very partial to a flag and a March and are socially very
:34:15. > :34:18.conservative. Despite the peace, Northern Ireland is still a deeply
:34:19. > :34:22.divided place. If we want to know how many Protestants and Catholics
:34:23. > :34:29.there are here, we don't have a census, we have an election! A deal
:34:30. > :34:31.with the DUP could lead to some financial benefits for Northern
:34:32. > :34:37.Ireland. We don't know exactly what has been agreed. But what we can say
:34:38. > :34:42.is that just because the DUP have Theresa May over a barrel, we do
:34:43. > :34:53.hope they don't use that to extort every single last penny they can!
:34:54. > :34:58.It's Arlene Foster... Do you fancy a hospital or a motorway? One of each!
:34:59. > :35:00.One of