0:00:05 > 0:00:09They've had time and space to reach a deal - and failed.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12As the Secretary of State confirms the Stormont budget will be brought
0:00:12 > 0:00:14forward at Westminster, we ask can anything be
0:00:14 > 0:00:16done to revive a talks process on life support?
0:00:16 > 0:00:18Welcome to The View.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42With James Brokenshire adamant we're not looking at direct rule just yet,
0:00:42 > 0:00:45where does that leave the talks process and the prospect
0:00:45 > 0:00:46of restoring devolution?
0:00:46 > 0:00:51We'll hear from the DUP's Gregory Campbell in Foyle,
0:00:51 > 0:00:53Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd and the Alliance Party
0:00:53 > 0:00:59leader, Naomi Long.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01They are with me in the studio.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03Plus, after Peadar Heffron's powerful interview, we're asking,
0:01:03 > 0:01:05nearly 20 years after Patten's new beginning for policing,
0:01:05 > 0:01:07are there elements in nationalism which will never fully
0:01:07 > 0:01:08embrace the PSNI?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10And back in Commentators' Corner, it's Fionnuala
0:01:10 > 0:01:15O Connor and Alex Kane.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Hello.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20On Monday night it looked like that elusive deal might
0:01:20 > 0:01:21finally be within reach.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25What a difference four days can make.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28As of now, the talking has ground to halt and a budget looks set
0:01:28 > 0:01:31to go through Westminster the week after next.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35So where did it all go wrong, and is there any hope of getting it
0:01:35 > 0:01:40right before big financial decisions are taken out of local hands?
0:01:40 > 0:01:44Gregory Campbell in Derry, is that it, or is this talks process still
0:01:44 > 0:01:53going on?It needs to go on, and we need to reach a satisfactory
0:01:53 > 0:01:56conclusion. A satisfactory conclusion is one where people
0:01:56 > 0:02:01across the community are content and satisfied that it is a win-win, that
0:02:01 > 0:02:06we all move forward, that health, education, all the other issues get
0:02:06 > 0:02:09the much-needed resources that they require and that we start delivering
0:02:09 > 0:02:13for the people of Northern Ireland. That needs to be the outcome.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Sources suggested things were going pretty well on Monday, there was a
0:02:16 > 0:02:20spirit of optimism and something happened on Monday night and into
0:02:20 > 0:02:24Tuesday morning. What was that? Did the DUP get cold feet over the Irish
0:02:24 > 0:02:31language act?No, we have heard these sources being quoted over
0:02:31 > 0:02:34ministers and others in Dublin, people in London, all sorts of
0:02:34 > 0:02:39people talking up the prospects, and then others dampening down
0:02:39 > 0:02:46prospects. You get this speculation. The gap has narrowed over the course
0:02:46 > 0:02:51of the last few weeks, but we are not at a point where we can conclude
0:02:51 > 0:02:56the deal, because we are not there where everybody feels that this is
0:02:56 > 0:03:01going to be a win-win position. At the moment, there are still gaps and
0:03:01 > 0:03:05we need to close those gaps and get the deal over the line.John
0:03:05 > 0:03:11O'Dowda, the gap has narrowed. Is that how you see it?There has been
0:03:11 > 0:03:14progress, but insufficient progress, because if there was enough
0:03:14 > 0:03:20progress, we would now be sitting in an executive assembly. We would be
0:03:20 > 0:03:23ensuring that the rights of all our citizens are protected, and that is
0:03:23 > 0:03:27a win-win situation favourably, because the protection of people's
0:03:27 > 0:03:31rights does not alienate or threaten anyone, and it is not a loss for
0:03:31 > 0:03:35someone, it is a win for everyone. So when Sinn Fein have been in these
0:03:35 > 0:03:39talks, we have been in gauged on the basis of working for the rights of
0:03:39 > 0:03:43all citizens. The people we are speaking about half are not all
0:03:43 > 0:03:47voters for Sinn Fein, and some of them may never vote for Sinn Fein,
0:03:47 > 0:03:51but it is with rights and entitlements for everyone.We know
0:03:51 > 0:03:54that, with the greatest respect I think we have heard that articulated
0:03:54 > 0:03:57many times over the past eight months or thereabouts.But it hasn't
0:03:57 > 0:04:03changed.But it is interesting the Gregory Campbell says that the gap
0:04:03 > 0:04:07has narrowed, the British and Irish Lions ons have suggested the gap is
0:04:07 > 0:04:12particularly narrow at this stage, progress has been made, and do you
0:04:12 > 0:04:18accept that the gap is not now what it was a few months ago.We can all
0:04:18 > 0:04:21get around a table and argue whether the gap has narrowed or not, but
0:04:21 > 0:04:26that is a waste of time.Has progress being made or not?It is
0:04:26 > 0:04:33speculation.Do you tell me, do you think the gap has narrowed, yes or
0:04:33 > 0:04:38no?That speculation is an helpful to the process because we need to
0:04:38 > 0:04:41have a meaningful talks process around the table and bring it to a
0:04:41 > 0:04:44conclusion. We can speculate in studios for the next period of time
0:04:44 > 0:04:47over the size of the gap, but let's get into meaningful talks and
0:04:47 > 0:04:54resolve the issue.Can you point to anything that is less of an issue
0:04:54 > 0:04:57now than it was weeks or months ago? Because that is what Gregory
0:04:57 > 0:05:03Campbell seems to be suggesting is the case.I'm not going to negotiate
0:05:03 > 0:05:06on here, that isn't helpful to anyone.I'm just asking for some
0:05:06 > 0:05:11sense of whether or not there is any progress.The fact that we are
0:05:11 > 0:05:15sitting here without an executive and without an assembly tells me
0:05:15 > 0:05:20that has been insufficient progress across a wide range of interests.
0:05:20 > 0:05:28But has the bin a narrowing of the gap? Wires that are difficult
0:05:28 > 0:05:32question.It isn't a difficult question, it is a pointless
0:05:32 > 0:05:40question.Naomi Long, I haven't got anywhere with John O'Dowda. Do you
0:05:40 > 0:05:44think the gap has narrowed? Is that a meaningless question to ask?We
0:05:44 > 0:05:49are not in a position to judge, because the two parties have
0:05:49 > 0:05:52essentially lock themselves away in a room together to have these
0:05:52 > 0:05:55discussions, and the rest of us are essentially now just feeding into
0:05:55 > 0:05:59that process as we meet the parties individually, but we are not in a
0:05:59 > 0:06:05position to judge whether the gap is wider or narrower than it was. But
0:06:05 > 0:06:11the gap was never that wide to begin with. There is this huge gulf that
0:06:11 > 0:06:17needs to be crossed, we are not in a situation like in 1998 where we were
0:06:17 > 0:06:21talking about people making massive changes to their political stance.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24These are relatively small issues that could be resolved if the wheel
0:06:24 > 0:06:28is there. What I don't detect from outside the room and what the public
0:06:28 > 0:06:32don't detect from outside the room is that there is any attempt being
0:06:32 > 0:06:36made by either party to prepare their constituencies for a deal. In
0:06:36 > 0:06:39that context, the only conclusion we can reach is that a deal is not
0:06:39 > 0:06:47imminent. While I -- where I agree with both Gregory and John is that
0:06:47 > 0:06:50we don't need to look at what percentage of the gap is closed, we
0:06:50 > 0:06:54need to see the gap completely closed because what people want is
0:06:54 > 0:06:58the restoration of the institutions, they want it to be more stable than
0:06:58 > 0:07:01it has been in the past and more reliably able to deal with the
0:07:01 > 0:07:04challenges that Northern Ireland faces, and nothing we have heard
0:07:04 > 0:07:07this evening suggest that we are about to enter into that kind of an
0:07:07 > 0:07:13executive.Have you been hearing, as we have, that it still comes down to
0:07:13 > 0:07:16the thorny issue of a stand-alone Irish language act? Sinn Fein wants
0:07:16 > 0:07:23it, the DUP doesn't?It is certainly one of the issues, but it isn't the
0:07:23 > 0:07:29only one...But is it the key issue? For us it isn't, but obviously it is
0:07:29 > 0:07:33one of the issues that has caused this stand-off, and it is for that
0:07:33 > 0:07:36reason that we have put forward solutions to try to ensure that we
0:07:36 > 0:07:39do have the protections that are required for the Irish language,
0:07:39 > 0:07:44that we do that in a way that is proportionate and deals with
0:07:44 > 0:07:47concerns others might have over what those concerns would look like. We
0:07:47 > 0:07:51have been proactive in putting forward solutions I think the public
0:07:51 > 0:07:55of recriminations and arguments. What they want to hear our
0:07:55 > 0:07:58solutions, and that is what we are trying to focus on, but it is
0:07:58 > 0:08:01difficult for us to play a constructive role when we can't be
0:08:01 > 0:08:04in the room looking into the whites of other people's rise to know
0:08:04 > 0:08:08whether they are serious about getting this over the line or
0:08:08 > 0:08:19whether this is simply about allowing the drift to continue until
0:08:19 > 0:08:21the first person blinks and walks away, because nobody wants to be to
0:08:21 > 0:08:24blame for the collapse of these institutions, and so we need to know
0:08:24 > 0:08:26whether people are serious or not about getting a solution, because it
0:08:26 > 0:08:29is only one we know that they are serious that we can start to get
0:08:29 > 0:08:33progress.Gregory Campbell, are the DUP serious about negotiating to get
0:08:33 > 0:08:36a resolution to the outstanding issues?We have been serious about
0:08:36 > 0:08:42it for months.It is a process, and not of a body things all of the
0:08:42 > 0:08:46parties have been serious about that process.That maybe, but our view
0:08:46 > 0:08:50was at the start and remains now that with no red lines and no
0:08:50 > 0:08:55preconditions, we will set up government tomorrow.So the
0:08:55 > 0:08:59stand-alone Irish language act isn't a precondition for the DUP?I don't
0:08:59 > 0:09:04know why people keep confusing the issue of preconditions. An Irish
0:09:04 > 0:09:08language act or no Irish language act doesn't prevent for us a
0:09:08 > 0:09:12government being established. We will establish it tomorrow. There
0:09:12 > 0:09:15isn't anything that we require to be done before we will go into
0:09:15 > 0:09:19government. If everyone else could say that, we would have a government
0:09:19 > 0:09:23tomorrow morning at 10:30am in Stormont.I think Sinn Fein's
0:09:23 > 0:09:32position is that they would have a government tomorrow if there was a
0:09:32 > 0:09:43allowance for a stand-alone Irish language act. I couldn't tempt John
0:09:43 > 0:09:48O'Dowda to talk about whether the gap had narrowed or not. Can you
0:09:48 > 0:09:52tell me what progress actually has been made. What would you point to
0:09:52 > 0:09:55as evidence for people watching this programme to help them understand
0:09:55 > 0:10:01where the progress has happened in your view?I can understand the
0:10:01 > 0:10:05desire of people to know exactly what it is is going wrong, what it
0:10:05 > 0:10:11is is the stumbling block or stumbling blocks, and they do want
0:10:11 > 0:10:14information and transparency. I don't think it would be helpful if
0:10:14 > 0:10:20we were to itemise now what each of the issues are that remain to be
0:10:20 > 0:10:23concluded. I don't think that would be helpful. I think what would be
0:10:23 > 0:10:29more helpful is if we keep going at this process until we get it over
0:10:29 > 0:10:33the line. If that means people then need to go away and concentrate and
0:10:33 > 0:10:38to review their position, and to talk to people, then let them do
0:10:38 > 0:10:42that, and if that requires a few days or the weekend, let them do
0:10:42 > 0:10:46that, and then we come back, and if talks can't start again tomorrow, we
0:10:46 > 0:10:50understand they should have taken place today, but hopefully they can
0:10:50 > 0:10:56start on Monday, and we can still get it over the line.But just to be
0:10:56 > 0:10:59clear, I'm assuming that neither Sinn Fein nor the DUP expect to get
0:10:59 > 0:11:03everything on their wish list and expect the other side to concede
0:11:03 > 0:11:07everything that they don't want to concede. Are you up a compromise?
0:11:07 > 0:11:10That's why we didn't make any preconditions, for precisely that
0:11:10 > 0:11:15reason.So you are prepared to compromise on some of these dearly
0:11:15 > 0:11:18held issues as far as the DUP are concerned? Just to be clear about
0:11:18 > 0:11:23that?When you say we are prepared to compromise, we want to have a
0:11:23 > 0:11:28position where it is not a winner takes all. It isn't a winner takes
0:11:28 > 0:11:32all, you can't go to the table and say, here is a list of our demands,
0:11:32 > 0:11:35when we get them we will do a deal. That is not the way you do
0:11:35 > 0:11:39negotiations. You have got to try and say, this is a give and take
0:11:39 > 0:11:43process, we will get all that we want, some of what we want, and we
0:11:43 > 0:11:48will have to give something else. But you cannot do that if those with
0:11:48 > 0:11:51whom you are negotiating say, here is a list of demands, when they are
0:11:51 > 0:11:55met we will move, but not until.But they take from that that you are
0:11:55 > 0:11:58prepared to make concessions if a dealer to be reached, you understand
0:11:58 > 0:12:06that has to be part of the process? That was our position at the start
0:12:06 > 0:12:08and remains our position.And that presumably is Sinn Fein's position
0:12:08 > 0:12:11as well? You will have to make concessions to the DUP to reach a
0:12:11 > 0:12:15deal?
0:12:15 > 0:12:21We didn't have a list of demands. Gregory talks about setting up the
0:12:21 > 0:12:26executive and he talks about that at 1030 a.m. There will be in
0:12:26 > 0:12:33executive. Bit is on the basis of the Good Friday Agreement.That
0:12:33 > 0:12:37position is very well-known. The point is this, Gregory Campbell
0:12:37 > 0:12:42doesn't see it the way you see it. And that is where you have got to
0:12:42 > 0:12:46find a compromise.The compromises were found in St Andrews, around the
0:12:46 > 0:12:51Good Friday Agreement.I don't want a history lesson, I don't want to be
0:12:51 > 0:12:56rude. That was to do with the government promising thing, not the
0:12:56 > 0:13:02DUP. We can't recur daily-macro rehearsed that argument. Is Sinn
0:13:02 > 0:13:06Fein prepared to make compromises to reach agreement?You don't want a
0:13:06 > 0:13:11history lesson you don't want answers?I want answers, but not a
0:13:11 > 0:13:17history lesson.This is about the implementation about outstanding
0:13:17 > 0:13:21agreements. The executive, the assembly only exists on the
0:13:21 > 0:13:25foundations of the Good Friday Agreement, on the foundations of the
0:13:25 > 0:13:28St Andrews agreement. That might be history lesson to you but that is
0:13:28 > 0:13:35reality.He were not prepared to compromise on that?He failed to
0:13:35 > 0:13:37understand, the Good Friday Agreement and St Andrews Hall
0:13:37 > 0:13:43compromises. You cannot have cut daily-macro negotiations then reach
0:13:43 > 0:13:49an agreement and then say sorry. Sinn Fein is not prepared to
0:13:49 > 0:13:55compromise on, is that what you are saying?Why won't you compromise on
0:13:55 > 0:14:01the compromises? The agreements themselves are compromises. We are
0:14:01 > 0:14:04seeking the lamentation of outstanding agreements. That is not
0:14:04 > 0:14:10a loss to everyone.It is a problem to the DUP if they don't interpret
0:14:10 > 0:14:16it the same. There is a look of incredulity on your face?We are
0:14:16 > 0:14:21still trying to compromise to reach agreement. If we get this over the
0:14:21 > 0:14:24line there will have to be some form of compromise and ramper sequencing
0:14:24 > 0:14:28of how this takes place.What you think of what John O'Dowd has said?
0:14:28 > 0:14:34There is no sense in which people will have to accommodate each other.
0:14:34 > 0:14:39The reality is, life is a compromise. If we are going to get
0:14:39 > 0:14:43on with people around us, we have to be willing to work with them and it
0:14:43 > 0:14:47means give and take every day. It is how we work together and what is
0:14:47 > 0:14:52demanded of us all the time. We have got to be able to do that if we are
0:14:52 > 0:14:57to deliver. The current process, where people are locked away in a
0:14:57 > 0:15:01room, talking at each other, but not understanding the challenges each
0:15:01 > 0:15:04other have, it's not working. The fact we are sitting here listening
0:15:04 > 0:15:09to Gregory saying, on one hand there will have to be compromises on all
0:15:09 > 0:15:14sides and then on the other hand, John saying we have already done are
0:15:14 > 0:15:21compromising, it we are about implementation, shows nothing has
0:15:21 > 0:15:25moved in the last ten months. The Secretary of State needs to get a
0:15:25 > 0:15:29grip of this, and mediator needs to work with the parties to try to find
0:15:29 > 0:15:33solutions and be in a position to challenge the intransigence where it
0:15:33 > 0:15:37is. There is no one in charge of driving the process and we are
0:15:37 > 0:15:42drifting and it is having a negative impact, not just on the public
0:15:42 > 0:15:48services and public finances, but on people'sperception of our ability as
0:15:48 > 0:15:51politicians to govern Northern Ireland. And that will not easily be
0:15:51 > 0:15:56recovered.Does that make sense, get someone in from outside, get
0:15:56 > 0:15:59everybody around the table and see if a new way can be found to break
0:15:59 > 0:16:04the logjam?I suppose it would be a sad indictment if we cannot resolve
0:16:04 > 0:16:10this issue and we have to try and bring in an outside negotiator.We
0:16:10 > 0:16:15have had ten months, Gregory and you haven't.People could say we were 20
0:16:15 > 0:16:20or 30 years and we didn't make much progress.What do you think about
0:16:20 > 0:16:23John O'Dowd has said, you cannot compromise on previous commitments.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27He doesn't have a list of the manse, he just wants to see things
0:16:27 > 0:16:33previously agreed being implemented? Those agreements are not agreements,
0:16:33 > 0:16:37the one he's talking about, they are not agreements entered into with us.
0:16:37 > 0:16:43They were never mentioned in the lead up to ten months ago. We had a
0:16:43 > 0:16:47programme for government that was issued, published and discussed one
0:16:47 > 0:16:52year ago. The Irish language act didn't feature, it was an campaign
0:16:52 > 0:16:56for, it wasn't lobbied for it wasn't inserted, it wasn't declined because
0:16:56 > 0:17:05it wasn't an issue. It was only an issue in January.In the absence of
0:17:05 > 0:17:08the Good Friday Agreement, if Gregory is saying he hasn't signed
0:17:08 > 0:17:13up to the Good Friday Agreement, that is a major problem. None of
0:17:13 > 0:17:17these situations exist in the absence of the Good Friday
0:17:17 > 0:17:21Agreement. MLAs, ministers, executive First Minister, Deputy
0:17:21 > 0:17:27First Minister, whatever title, they all flow from the Good Friday
0:17:27 > 0:17:30Agreement. A rights -based society flows from the Good Friday
0:17:30 > 0:17:36Agreement. The purpose of the executive is multifunctional. It is
0:17:36 > 0:17:39to run public services but also deliver the change that was promised
0:17:39 > 0:17:45in the Good Friday Agreement.Is this what it has been like inside
0:17:45 > 0:17:48the negotiating route between Sinn Fein representatives and DUP
0:17:48 > 0:17:53representatives? You just talk that each other, you can't even agree on
0:17:53 > 0:17:59the basic scaffolding of the conversation?The conversations
0:17:59 > 0:18:03aren't necessarily between Sinn Fein and the DUP.The problems between
0:18:03 > 0:18:09Sinn Fein the DUP.There are two players, the Irish government and
0:18:09 > 0:18:13the British government who ago guarantors of the internationally
0:18:13 > 0:18:18binding agreements. They should agree with the agreements. They
0:18:18 > 0:18:22should agree with the Good Friday Agreement, it is an internationally
0:18:22 > 0:18:26binding agreement.Let me ask you about the budget and see if we can
0:18:26 > 0:18:30move the conversation on. Does Westminster passing a budget for
0:18:30 > 0:18:35Northern Ireland passed the direct rule?No, it takes us into no man's
0:18:35 > 0:18:41land. The civil servants who are unaccountable will continue to
0:18:41 > 0:18:45disburse 100% of the budget with no oversight, no political import and
0:18:45 > 0:18:49they will be able to do that. There will be no ministers in terms of
0:18:49 > 0:18:53direct rule actually be able to drive change, make decisions, it
0:18:53 > 0:18:58will be disbursed in line with the previous executive 's priorities and
0:18:58 > 0:19:01policies. Any innovation or change required cannot happen and that is a
0:19:01 > 0:19:06major issue, so I don't think it is direct rule. It is more drift and
0:19:06 > 0:19:10this is the problem I sense in listening to the other contributors.
0:19:10 > 0:19:14What we have is this constant drift, nobody seems to be willing to take
0:19:14 > 0:19:19charge and command of the process in order to bring people to the room
0:19:19 > 0:19:23where people acknowledge the Irish language is on the agenda, Gregory.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27People like you have persistently mocked and denigrated it. You put it
0:19:27 > 0:19:33back onto the agenda along with your colleagues who swept away the need
0:19:33 > 0:19:38for grants. People feel it needs protecting. It is a genuine issue
0:19:38 > 0:19:47people daily-macro for people. It is work that needs to be done in order
0:19:47 > 0:19:51to get devolution restored. The things that matter to you will not
0:19:51 > 0:19:57be delivered by direct rule.Let's bring Gregory in to respond.What
0:19:57 > 0:20:03Naomi doesn't understand is the Irish language, at the moment in
0:20:03 > 0:20:072017, and for years, has been better treated than all other minority
0:20:07 > 0:20:12languages in Northern Ireland. What seems to be required of some people
0:20:12 > 0:20:18is that there has to be additional safeguards on what is already there
0:20:18 > 0:20:22at the moment.What about the commitment in the St Andrews
0:20:22 > 0:20:27agreement?Commitment between who? There is a commitment in the St
0:20:27 > 0:20:30Andrews agreement that says the government will deliver an Irish
0:20:30 > 0:20:34language act. It is not about the British government because we don't
0:20:34 > 0:20:38have direct rule. But when I spoke to Dermot Ahern, he said there was a
0:20:38 > 0:20:42clear understanding on the part of the DUP that was agreed and it will
0:20:42 > 0:20:47be implemented if devolution was restored. Is he not right in his
0:20:47 > 0:20:51recollection?He is not right. If you check the St Andrews agreement
0:20:51 > 0:20:55and the assessments of it at the time and since, he can be as clear
0:20:55 > 0:21:02as he wants. The issue you raised about the budget, two beneficial
0:21:02 > 0:21:10effects from the budget. One is, it allows departmental responsibility
0:21:10 > 0:21:16to be carried out and resource, which it isn't at the moment. The
0:21:16 > 0:21:20additional money we negotiated from the Conservatives several months ago
0:21:20 > 0:21:25can begin to flow into education and health service, then benefiting.
0:21:25 > 0:21:30Hopefully nobody will stand in the wake of that. John O'Dowd, if James
0:21:30 > 0:21:34Brokenshire our puts forward a budget in Westminster the week after
0:21:34 > 0:21:38next, Conor Murphy said it is the end of the current talks process,
0:21:38 > 0:21:43the SDLP says it is a return to direct rule, what the Sinn Fein do
0:21:43 > 0:21:47at that time?James Brokenshire is going in the wrong direction and has
0:21:47 > 0:21:51been told he's going in the wrong direction by our party. We will
0:21:51 > 0:21:56evaluate each stage of this process. We have said we will evaluate the
0:21:56 > 0:22:00previous talks process and where we go next in terms of if there is
0:22:00 > 0:22:06future talks process.If there is a future talks process?Yes, we have
0:22:06 > 0:22:10do have a process which is meaningful.Is there no talks
0:22:10 > 0:22:14process at the moment, as we speak tonight?James Brokenshire statement
0:22:14 > 0:22:21the other date brought the talks process we are involved in to a
0:22:21 > 0:22:27halt. Some people believe talking is sufficient in itself, but we have to
0:22:27 > 0:22:32bring about resolution.It is dead in the water as far as you are
0:22:32 > 0:22:34concerned?The current phase has come to an end, what we need to do
0:22:34 > 0:22:41is move into and meaningful negotiation.
0:22:41 > 0:22:42Thank you all.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44Now, are there elements in nationalism which will never
0:22:44 > 0:22:45fully embrace the PSNI?
0:22:45 > 0:22:48The issue came to the fore this week following an interview
0:22:48 > 0:22:56with Peadar Heffron, the former GAA player and police
0:22:56 > 0:22:59officer who was severely injured in a dissident republican car bomb
0:22:59 > 0:23:00attack in 2010.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03He told the Sunday Independent he felt shunned by his old club
0:23:03 > 0:23:06and some of his team-mates when he joined the police, and again
0:23:06 > 0:23:07after he was badly injured.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09The relationship between the two organisations has
0:23:09 > 0:23:11always been complex.
0:23:23 > 0:23:35The motion is carried.At around 6:30 a:m., 33-year-old constable
0:23:35 > 0:23:40Peadar Heffron left his home in Milltown and was on his way to work
0:23:40 > 0:23:44in west Belfast. He given about a mile when the bomb went off. Behind
0:23:44 > 0:23:50the coughing, roaming care's mother, just a day after the murder she
0:23:50 > 0:23:53appealed to Catholics in the police service not to give the terrorists
0:23:53 > 0:23:59who killed her son. The village was at a standstill. The only sound, the
0:23:59 > 0:24:03footsteps of the police officers and GAA players who formed a joint guard
0:24:03 > 0:24:08of honour.Peadar Heffron won the gay lick football championships at
0:24:08 > 0:24:13this club. He also lost friendships. Shunned by team-mates and lifelong
0:24:13 > 0:24:17friends after telling them he was joining the PSNI.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20With me now is the former All-Ireland champion
0:24:20 > 0:24:23and SDLP MLA Justin McNulty, Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly,
0:24:23 > 0:24:25and in our Foyle studio is and Denis Bradley,
0:24:25 > 0:24:27a former vice-chairman of the Policing Board.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30Denis Bradley.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34It was very clear from Peadar Heffron's comments
0:24:34 > 0:24:36in the interview he did for the Sunday Independent
0:24:36 > 0:24:40that he is very sore about the way he was treated by his former friends
0:24:40 > 0:24:42and team-mates before and after the attack.
0:24:42 > 0:24:51How do you feel about what he had to say?
0:24:51 > 0:24:55He is a young man who joined the PSNI early on and I think he thought
0:24:55 > 0:25:01he was joining a police force that had the complete and total
0:25:01 > 0:25:09allegiance of the people of Northern Ireland. I think he thought even
0:25:09 > 0:25:13bear to serve his community and it was back community, along with the
0:25:13 > 0:25:16Unionists, but particularly his community, they were totally and
0:25:16 > 0:25:21completely behind him. I think that we have to listen to what he says
0:25:21 > 0:25:26because there is more than a possibility, there is a thing
0:25:26 > 0:25:30nationalism needs to look and hear what he has to say because sometimes
0:25:30 > 0:25:35we stuttered along this issue. Sometimes we were a bit self
0:25:35 > 0:25:38protective. I mean the broad nationalism, the major institutions
0:25:38 > 0:25:45of nationalism like the GAA, like the church, like some other
0:25:45 > 0:25:50political parties, not all of them, but a lot of the political parties
0:25:50 > 0:25:53and areas of the Irish government. By thing he thought he was entering
0:25:53 > 0:25:57into that new arena which was totally supportive of the police.
0:25:57 > 0:26:07Not critical of the police, it is interesting, nobody would ever
0:26:07 > 0:26:12question that as an Irish man serving the Irish people. I think
0:26:12 > 0:26:15Peadar Heffron thought he was entering into a situation where he
0:26:15 > 0:26:19would have the broad support of people and be accepted as an Irish
0:26:19 > 0:26:23police officer serving his people. I think what he discovered, and we
0:26:23 > 0:26:27need to reflect upon this, as a community of people, now because we
0:26:27 > 0:26:34have this contemporary, current question. Are we completely, totally
0:26:34 > 0:26:38committed that every young man and woman from the nationalist community
0:26:38 > 0:26:44in Northern Ireland who joins the PSNI is in fact a young Irish police
0:26:44 > 0:26:49officer or policewoman, who has the full and total support of that broad
0:26:49 > 0:26:57community?Gerry Kelly, could you sign up to that?Yes. We signed up
0:26:57 > 0:27:01to the policing service that should be representative, it should be
0:27:01 > 0:27:19accountable and nonpolitical and nonpartisan.
0:27:19 > 0:27:27We want 50/50 recruitment, particularly to make up the balance
0:27:27 > 0:27:32of Catholics and nationalists.More than ten years since Sinn Fein
0:27:32 > 0:27:36endorsed policing, is there still within the broader nationalist
0:27:36 > 0:27:40community and acceptability issue as far as young men and women joining
0:27:40 > 0:27:47the PSNI is concerned?What do you mean by acceptable?In that they are
0:27:47 > 0:27:51not entirely accepted as police officers from within that community.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55You have to talk about this in a certain way in general, so generally
0:27:55 > 0:27:59the vast majority of people do look upon Catholics, Protestants,
0:27:59 > 0:28:08whatever their politics might be, as joining the police service.We know
0:28:08 > 0:28:11there was a police officer who had a device under his car in Derry
0:28:11 > 0:28:17earlier this year, we know Peadar Heffron was grievously maimed. So
0:28:17 > 0:28:22for some people it continues to be an issue.And I agree with that as
0:28:22 > 0:28:26well, for some people there is an issue.What can be done to make it
0:28:26 > 0:28:31not an issue for those people? That is the point.The issue of
0:28:31 > 0:28:34confidence in policing is an issue also for the police as well. There
0:28:34 > 0:28:39are people who will never, and you say within nationalism, we're
0:28:39 > 0:28:43talking about people who have been attacked from within certain
0:28:43 > 0:28:54sections of nationalism, but there isn't necessary full support of the
0:28:54 > 0:29:00police in unionism as well.I understand that. You have argued
0:29:00 > 0:29:02this entirely on nationalism, but I understand that that is because of
0:29:02 > 0:29:09the effects. You are an all Ireland medal winner,
0:29:09 > 0:29:13no question about your prowess on the sporting field, but as somebody
0:29:13 > 0:29:18who is passionate about the sport, do you think there is a problem here
0:29:18 > 0:29:26within some elements may be of the GAA and the broader national
0:29:26 > 0:29:32community in accepting policing as it is.I can only speak for someone
0:29:32 > 0:29:37who has a lot of experience of being in the GAA, and they have shown a
0:29:37 > 0:29:40lot of leadership in the start along with the SDLP and the Catholic
0:29:40 > 0:29:47Church in supporting policing. Despite opposition from within the
0:29:47 > 0:29:53ranks, the GAA still pushed ahead and abolished rule 21. There is an
0:29:53 > 0:29:56unwritten rule which was part of my experience with every team I have
0:29:56 > 0:29:59played, which is you leave your politics at the door. You leave your
0:29:59 > 0:30:04politics at the gate, and I think the GAA has made brave moves towards
0:30:04 > 0:30:12making it more acceptable for people to be part of the PSNI.But when you
0:30:12 > 0:30:15look at what happened to Peadar Heffron, that is clearly not the
0:30:15 > 0:30:21case. There were individuals involved in the sport alongside
0:30:21 > 0:30:24Peadar Heffron, he clearly in his view if you read that article
0:30:24 > 0:30:27carefully, he feels that there were former team-mate who clearly did not
0:30:27 > 0:30:32accept his decision to join the police, were not happy about it, and
0:30:32 > 0:30:35he suggests that he would have serious question marks about who was
0:30:35 > 0:30:40responsible for the attack that took place on him.What happened to
0:30:40 > 0:30:44Peadar Heffron was horrific and it was wrong. The rank-and-file of the
0:30:44 > 0:30:48GAA are as disgusted about what happened to Peadar Heffron as I am.
0:30:48 > 0:30:53I can't speak to the circumstances of the issues around that club at
0:30:53 > 0:30:59that time, I can't speak for those, but I know that the people in the
0:30:59 > 0:31:02GAA were disgusted by that would not support action like that in the
0:31:02 > 0:31:05future.And I'm sure the club would want to make it very clear it
0:31:05 > 0:31:10wouldn't be supportive as a club of any of the actions that we are
0:31:10 > 0:31:16talking about here. It comes down to individuals at the end of the day.
0:31:16 > 0:31:20Do you think that more can be done, more needs to be done to make people
0:31:20 > 0:31:23feel comfortable within their own community? They will make that
0:31:23 > 0:31:27decision, you took a stand and said people from the nationalist
0:31:27 > 0:31:29community should be able to join the police, and you have just explained
0:31:29 > 0:31:34why that is so important from your point of view. What more can be done
0:31:34 > 0:31:37to make it more acceptable and make sure that there are no more Ronan
0:31:37 > 0:31:44Kerrs and no more Peadar Heffrons. There will be young men at this
0:31:44 > 0:31:47point of time deciding whether to go forward for recruitment to the PSNI,
0:31:47 > 0:31:50and they know that there are dissidents out there and people
0:31:50 > 0:31:59disagree, thankfully it is not that many, but there are attacks on
0:31:59 > 0:32:02police officers and Peadar Heffron is the most traumatic example of
0:32:02 > 0:32:05that. But I'm not sure they are so afraid of that. If they have the
0:32:05 > 0:32:11feeling of the confidence that the total nationalist community in its
0:32:11 > 0:32:14multi-representation, GAA particularly very strong, Catholic
0:32:14 > 0:32:18Church very strong, that if they are convinced that community stands 100%
0:32:18 > 0:32:27behind them, that it doesn't be kind of 90% or 80% behind them, they need
0:32:27 > 0:32:32to be fully and totally behind them, that is what the new dispensation
0:32:32 > 0:32:37was about.And are you satisfied with what you've heard from Gerry
0:32:37 > 0:32:40Kelly and Justin McNulty on that? Have they been fulsome enough in
0:32:40 > 0:32:45giving their support to the new arrangements? Or can either of them
0:32:45 > 0:32:50do any more or say any more, in your view?The history of this in my
0:32:50 > 0:33:02opinion is that the SDLP work -- were completely on board, and the
0:33:02 > 0:33:05others eventually came. The big moment on policing in Northern
0:33:05 > 0:33:11Ireland was Martin McGuinness, when in 2008 at the death of a police
0:33:11 > 0:33:19officer, he stood beside Hugh Orde and said, when people kill or injure
0:33:19 > 0:33:23police officers, they are traitors. The only way you interpret that is
0:33:23 > 0:33:30that they are killing Irish men. And it has to be like that. In the face
0:33:30 > 0:33:33of where we stand at this moment in time, our politics are not in a
0:33:33 > 0:33:37great place, so if I am a young person and looking at the political
0:33:37 > 0:33:41situation, I need to hear very strong voices coming from the
0:33:41 > 0:33:45Catholic Church, from Sinn Fein, from the Irish government, that they
0:33:45 > 0:33:50are 100%, not just 80%, that there is no tepid nurse about this, they
0:33:50 > 0:33:53are not just supportive in a nice friendly way, that they are
0:33:53 > 0:33:56completely and totally behind it, and that makes my decision to go
0:33:56 > 0:34:02forward and join policing much more comfortable for me and for my
0:34:02 > 0:34:07family, because then we are not facing two situations, one is the
0:34:07 > 0:34:13danger of being attacked and the other is being not completely
0:34:13 > 0:34:17accepted within the community because the community is a bit self
0:34:17 > 0:34:20protective.So there is a danger of being attacked and also the danger
0:34:20 > 0:34:24of being ostracised from your own community.Ostracised is too strong.
0:34:24 > 0:34:29I wouldn't use that word. But not being fully, absolutely, totally,
0:34:29 > 0:34:34warmly engaged.Thank you for the clarification. Can you sign up 100%
0:34:34 > 0:34:39about? Are you relaxed about that?I am the police spokesperson for Sinn
0:34:39 > 0:34:42Fein, so I am the one who normally talks with this. I would challenge
0:34:42 > 0:34:47you to point to any time when I have been on the media where I haven't
0:34:47 > 0:34:49condemned the attacks, wherever haven't been up front not only would
0:34:49 > 0:34:53the police attacks but on dissident activity entirely, which includes
0:34:53 > 0:34:58actively on the ground when they were trying to intimidate workers in
0:34:58 > 0:35:06building site etc. So there is no Abigail Eddie in this at all.Let me
0:35:06 > 0:35:13-- there is no ambiguity in this at all. All parties support the police.
0:35:13 > 0:35:17I have watched Unionist terror them asunder over things that have
0:35:17 > 0:35:27happened. So that is why I challenge you when you talk about nationalism.
0:35:27 > 0:35:32So yes, I absolutely without contradiction support the police,
0:35:32 > 0:35:36the PSNI. But I will also criticise them if I believe they are doing
0:35:36 > 0:35:41wrong.And in an article I read that Dennis wrote, he says it doesn't
0:35:41 > 0:35:48mean you can't be uncritical of the police. You can support the above
0:35:48 > 0:35:52also be critical. Your party chairperson is related in fact to
0:35:52 > 0:35:57Peadar Heffron and is on the record as saying that, and he was very
0:35:57 > 0:36:00critical of what happened to Peadar Heffron and visited the family, as
0:36:00 > 0:36:04you would expect. He has made his opposition to the attack here. His
0:36:04 > 0:36:07statement yesterday, let me quote it. No one should be marginalised
0:36:07 > 0:36:12due to membership of the PSNI. Linda Dillon, your party spokesperson on
0:36:12 > 0:36:16victims and legacy. Nobody should be marginalised because they choose a
0:36:16 > 0:36:23career in the PSNI. What language would you use?If I were to write a
0:36:23 > 0:36:28statement, that is the language I would use as well.That is not
0:36:28 > 0:36:34enough. Young Irish men and women who join the gardai are young Irish
0:36:34 > 0:36:39policemen and women, and the PSNI should be held with the same respect
0:36:39 > 0:36:42and esteem. There is too much ambiguity around that statement, it
0:36:42 > 0:36:48is too soft. People who join the police are brave young men and women
0:36:48 > 0:36:51and should be supported.So you think those statements should have
0:36:51 > 0:36:55gone further?They should be admired by the community for the service
0:36:55 > 0:36:59they provide in keeping people safe in their homes.There is the
0:36:59 > 0:37:04criticism. I will let you answer it, but the statements don't go far
0:37:04 > 0:37:09enough, that is the criticism.I agree with an awful lot of what he
0:37:09 > 0:37:14says. This becomes a word game. I have said absolutely that I support
0:37:14 > 0:37:17people, and let me be very personal about it, there have been people who
0:37:17 > 0:37:22have come into my office, who have asked to be mocked what my view of
0:37:22 > 0:37:25it is, and I have said I will support them in any way they want,
0:37:25 > 0:37:31and I have said that publicly on the TV now. So I don't know where the
0:37:31 > 0:37:34ambiguity I am trying to defend here, it is quite party political,
0:37:34 > 0:37:38to be honest.Saying young people shouldn't be marginalised is not
0:37:38 > 0:37:43saying that you support them joining the police. It is a vague and it
0:37:43 > 0:37:48doesn't give them. I'm delighted you support them, all parties should
0:37:48 > 0:37:52fully support young people who have the confidence and bravery to go and
0:37:52 > 0:37:55do an admirable local profession which is being the butt of the
0:37:55 > 0:38:01police, we should all endorse that. Would you choose different language
0:38:01 > 0:38:05based on what he has said?I have talked on this programme before, I
0:38:05 > 0:38:08am not been to contradict myself in another week, but let me say this
0:38:08 > 0:38:14very clearly. In issues where the police are wrong, I will still be
0:38:14 > 0:38:19criticising them.That is not what we are talking about tonight.It is,
0:38:19 > 0:38:23because he says it is absolute support no matter what they do, and
0:38:23 > 0:38:26that includes individuals within the police, and they have some
0:38:26 > 0:38:29individuals who have acted wrongly, and I will come out and condemn that
0:38:29 > 0:38:35as well.Have you ever had a conversation with a young
0:38:35 > 0:38:38nationalist who says I fancy a career in the police, Gerry Kelly,
0:38:38 > 0:38:43should I do that or not?I have had a conversation similar to it.And
0:38:43 > 0:38:49what did you say?And they say, they don't say, should I or should I not,
0:38:49 > 0:38:52they say, I'm thinking of joining the police, do you think it is OK,
0:38:52 > 0:38:57would you support me on it? And I say, I will support you on it, is
0:38:57 > 0:39:01there any help you need. I do have contacted the police, I can guide
0:39:01 > 0:39:05them through the process.So you would say, yes, it is a decent
0:39:05 > 0:39:10career and you should think about it.Yes. They are Irish people in an
0:39:10 > 0:39:14Irish police force.All right. The last answer very quickly on this. Do
0:39:14 > 0:39:19you believe, and I would ask you to be brief, do you believe GAA members
0:39:19 > 0:39:23can at the moment join the PSNI and continue to live critically in their
0:39:23 > 0:39:29own communities and play for their local clubs?I think the GAA have
0:39:29 > 0:39:35done good work, I wouldn't be completely critical of them. Sinn
0:39:35 > 0:39:38Fein is powerful in this and I think it is important that they go the
0:39:38 > 0:39:42extra step, not just of condemning with actively encouraging young
0:39:42 > 0:39:47people to get involved, but I also think they have a big role to play
0:39:47 > 0:39:50in this. They need to speak loud and clear. There is a new recruitment
0:39:50 > 0:39:55drive going on at the moment, and I'm told that actually they want
0:39:55 > 0:39:59people from the west of Northern Ireland actively joined, and they
0:39:59 > 0:40:01are having some difficulty in that direction. I think the government
0:40:01 > 0:40:05can give a lead and Sinn Fein need to get behind that, the SDLP needs
0:40:05 > 0:40:10to get behind it and the Catholic Church, particularly the GAA.We are
0:40:10 > 0:40:15out of time.We are the ones who say that they need to go into the
0:40:15 > 0:40:20working class areas.Folks, we need to leave it there. Thank you all
0:40:20 > 0:40:25very much indeed for joining us.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28Let's hear what tonight's commentators make of what we've been
0:40:28 > 0:40:30discussing, and it's a welcome return to Alex Kane
0:40:30 > 0:40:31and Fionnuala O'Connor.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34Welcome to you both. I want to hear your thoughts, first of all on that
0:40:34 > 0:40:38conversation that we have just had. Do you believe there is a problem
0:40:38 > 0:40:45with policing, and some elements within the nationalist community?
0:40:45 > 0:40:50Yes, and I do believe that there will be continuing to be trouble,
0:40:50 > 0:40:58and particulars with Denis saying, and he has worked so hard on this,
0:40:58 > 0:41:00people in every community in Northern Ireland should be welcomed
0:41:00 > 0:41:06and encouraged to go into the PSNI, and you ask could they still live in
0:41:06 > 0:41:10their communities? Nobody can say that confidently because dissidents
0:41:10 > 0:41:13are targeting Catholics in their homes when they join the PSNI, so
0:41:13 > 0:41:21that is a big problem. And they are caught between the terror of the
0:41:21 > 0:41:25dissidents and the lingering suspicions about the PSNI whose
0:41:25 > 0:41:31refusal to examine collusion in the past and refusal to face up to
0:41:31 > 0:41:34inadequate catholic representation in the PSNI at the present will
0:41:34 > 0:41:38continue to fuel.Alex, what did you make of that exchange in particular
0:41:38 > 0:41:44between representatives of the SDLP and Sinn Fein?I think it is clear
0:41:44 > 0:41:49that Sinn Fein and the SDLP, the GAA, as organisations, have crossed
0:41:49 > 0:41:53that particular Rubicon in terms of young nationalists being members of
0:41:53 > 0:41:57the PSNI. The equally clearly there are sections of nationalism and
0:41:57 > 0:42:01republicanism which will not cross the Rubicon, and it doesn't matter
0:42:01 > 0:42:04tonight what Justin Dennis any one else says about that, those people
0:42:04 > 0:42:10will never believe that nationalists should be involved in the police
0:42:10 > 0:42:13force, it is that simple.I don't know what you made about the
0:42:13 > 0:42:16conversation about talks about talks at top of the programme, but if it
0:42:16 > 0:42:19gives us any hint as to what the debate might be like in the
0:42:19 > 0:42:24negotiating room, maybe it is no great surprise that a resolution to
0:42:24 > 0:42:29outstanding issues has not yet been reached?The irony is that he said
0:42:29 > 0:42:38it clearly more clearly than John was able to, he said, Gregory, the
0:42:38 > 0:42:42problem why it became an issue was people like you treated it with
0:42:42 > 0:42:48contempt. She also said, she then tried to say to balance it with
0:42:48 > 0:42:52things that Sinn Fein have to do about devolution, and that wasn't
0:42:52 > 0:42:58nearly as clear. She knows perfectly well that John is right, that
0:42:58 > 0:43:02arguments were made in the Good Friday Agreement and have not been
0:43:02 > 0:43:05implemented, the DUP never did sign up, and the fact they fought to the
0:43:05 > 0:43:08last minute against the Good Friday Agreement, so nobody could have
0:43:08 > 0:43:13expected them to prevent it, but that is the basic problem.Alex?I
0:43:13 > 0:43:16was interested when I came in the ceiling of both the DUP and Sinn
0:43:16 > 0:43:19Fein were debating this, because it has been months since they sat down,
0:43:19 > 0:43:24and I thought we might learn why, was the gap small, could it be
0:43:24 > 0:43:30resolved fairly quickly? We were not even clear there was a talks
0:43:30 > 0:43:33process! Gregory seemed to think they could be in tomorrow, and John
0:43:33 > 0:43:39was saying, there isn't even a process at the moment. I think the
0:43:39 > 0:43:42difficulty is, I think Sinn Fein and the DUP could compromise, but the
0:43:42 > 0:43:46grassroots to want to this time.We don't know if the talking continues
0:43:46 > 0:43:49or not, there is a lot that we don't know! Thank you very much for
0:43:49 > 0:43:50joining me tonight.
0:43:50 > 0:43:52That's it from The View for this week.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC One.
0:43:55 > 0:43:58For now, though, we leave you with a reminder of the pressing
0:43:58 > 0:44:00nature of political deadlines - every last one of them.
0:44:00 > 0:44:02Bye bye.
0:44:07 > 0:44:12# Ring, ring, ring as the telephone # The lights are on but there is
0:44:12 > 0:44:16nobody home... There is a sense of urgency of what
0:44:16 > 0:44:19is at hand here, there was a three-week window. We are now
0:44:19 > 0:44:24entering the final few days open to the political parties. We now have a
0:44:24 > 0:44:27short window of opportunity. The current situation cannot drift on
0:44:27 > 0:44:32for very long at all. Yes, there is this window of opportunity. We
0:44:32 > 0:44:37legislated to extend the deadline for the formation of an executive.
0:44:37 > 0:44:42The coming hours will be crucial. It is my strong wish to do this as soon
0:44:42 > 0:44:47as possible. We have obviously now passed a point where it is not
0:44:47 > 0:44:51possible in my judgment for a budget bill to be provided here in Northern
0:44:51 > 0:44:55Ireland. There are consequences of not being able to get that agreement
0:44:55 > 0:44:58at this point in time.